Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[EternalOdyessy]

By the way, OP. Do you know of Acrid?

 

http://riskofrain.wikia.com/wiki/Acrid

 

Acrid is a playable character in the game Risk Of Rain.

 

He/She's got a great setup to their skills, and I think you might be interested in seeing them (In case you think up something even better with these already great solutions)

 

Perhaps, maybe, Toxic Lash could apply multiple DOT affects with a Augment? Or maybe it could be replaced with something like Acrid's second skill, being able to stun foes in front of you with a lash of toxins+ DOTs?

[YasaiTsume]

Spore should increase the lifespan of Molt, either healing it or giving it 1 instance of damage block per Spore.

Just saying.

 

 

Also Molt already explodes on recast. 

Edited November 9, 2015 by YasaiTsume

[Senoinya]

By the way, OP. Do you know of Acrid?

 

http://riskofrain.wikia.com/wiki/Acrid

 

Acrid is a playable character in the game Risk Of Rain.

 

He/She's got a great setup to their skills, and I think you might be interested in seeing them (In case you think up something even better with these already great solutions)

 

*snip*

 

Perhaps, maybe, Toxic Lash could apply multiple DOT affects with a Augment? Or maybe it could be replaced with something like Acrid's second skill, being able to stun foes in front of you with a lash of toxins+ DOTs?

 

Hmmm... Interesting idea. I do like the idea of it being like the second skill. Would be a good spore popper as well. Give it some good range so that you don't have to hug people with a melee weapon to dish it out either.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Acrid is my absolute favorite class in ROR he has very good abilities that let him survive in crowds and is one of the few characters that can handle magma worms with ease

 

By the way, OP. Do you know of Acrid?

 

http://riskofrain.wikia.com/wiki/Acrid

 

Acrid is a playable character in the game Risk Of Rain.

 

He/She's got a great setup to their skills, and I think you might be interested in seeing them (In case you think up something even better with these already great solutions)

 

Perhaps, maybe, Toxic Lash could apply multiple DOT affects with a Augment? Or maybe it could be replaced with something like Acrid's second skill, being able to stun foes in front of you with a lash of toxins+ DOTs?

[DelialFallen]

There is no Saryn nerf.  Saryn performs by leagues better than before and her damage is nuts.  That said, there is a nerf to Miasma functionality (due to requiring a setup, however minimal that is).  Spores alone facilitate damaging enemies in a way Saryn never could before the rework.  A few tweaks to Molt's survability, a bit of a damage pas to make Miasma better, better mobility and more health to Saryn herself would do much to make the rework amazing (all things being currently suggested in the megathread).

 

It has been tested (Simulacrum and T4), and has been demonstrated mathematically.  To say Saryn has been nerfed at this point is just covering ears and going "Lalalala I can't hear you lalalala".  and is not constructive.

Edited November 9, 2015 by DelialFallen

[EternalOdyessy]

Acrid is my absolute favorite class in ROR he has very good abilities that let him survive in crowds and is one of the few characters that can handle magma worms with ease

 

>Every class but Acrid vs Overloading Worm

 

"OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH MYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD"

 

>Acrid

 

"EPIDEMIC ON  THAT S#&$"

 

Game set.

[-Mr.Meeseeks-]

Agreed with the Spore change. I hate waiting around for the spores to appear to actually get to work on chaining the abilities together.

[Skirvy]

It has been tested (Simulacrum and T4), and has been demonstrated mathematically. 

If you know these numbers so well, why don't you post them compared to what they could get to before? Because before this rework, a Saryn build optimized for power strength and minimum duration could do well over 18k for the energy cost of a single Maisma, now you have to burn way more energy and don't even get a half-decent corrosive proc out of it.

 

You're doing the exact thing you're claiming others are doing.

 

And at the end of the day, the damage is hardly even a complaint compared to the people who are mad at the outrageous amount of energy you need to invest to make it work.

[DelialFallen]

If you know these numbers so well, why don't you post them compared to what they could get to before? Because before this rework, a Saryn build optimized for power strength and minimum duration could do well over 18k for the energy cost of a single Maisma, now you have to burn way more energy and don't even get a half-decent corrosive proc out of it.

 

-snip_

 

I believe I was referring to Saryn's performance and not one ability of itself.  If you want to compare the numbers of before versus now, I suggest reading this excellent post:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/557106-long-saryn-build-analysis-comparing-old-and-new-miasma-lots-of-math/

 

If you want me to make a video of killing stuff, they are coming very soon (same name on YouTube) but you can certainly see other people's Simulacrum and T4 results posted there already.

 

If you are mad at the energy costs, it might prove more beneficial to make your case for it in this thread and provide an analysis of some sort.  Personally, I do not find energy to be much of a problem in my chosen loadout.

 

Edit: spelling

Edited November 9, 2015 by DelialFallen

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

If DE is so intent on making her a debuff frame, then make all her abilities do that, ripping corrosive from miasma was definitely not the way to go.  

 

Spore seems good now, 1 point DE and 2 should have innate regenerative molt and give it a 1 sec immunity then give it reduced damage intake reduced by 40% for 3 sec.

 

If you all are so content with keeping 3 then make it go with all weapons and give it the new "miasma passive"> (X% damage increase by X amount of toxic procs), change it's augment to give it to all members to better help team mates.

 

Make MIASMA a cloud that follows and is affected by range/duration/strength and is a toggle. cloud has a 50% chance to proc corrosive and intensifies DoT that are already on enemies and staggers enemies if spore is on enemy for (X amount of seconds = to duration). This would give saryn the needed cc and and still allow for her to debuff. A new augment would be to let miasma be placed and left for a certain amount of seconds.

 

Or, you know, just revert the miasma changes so everyone is happy, for the most part.

[Eiswolf999]

I absolutely love the changes to Saryn. Dots spreading around on the whole map, Viral status everywhere, while my Torid causing toxin procs and even more spreading... i'm a happy poison flower now... with a shiny new skin.

I have to say, that i'm nearly never played saryn bevor these changes. Found these jump around/camp and press 4 with negative duration mods very boring.

Now i'm mostly using spores, spores aaaaand... spores and setting up my contagious molt while i'm on the run (moooore spooores). I'm not that melee guy, so no use of the third ability for me... but eventually, i will try it with these new glaive.
So... miasma... well... it's my "oh S#&$" button, for that extra large aoe dot of spreading flower power doom and darkness, especially in defense.

In my Opinion, Saryn is now what i hoped she is, when i started with warframe and read her description the first time... A dot spreading, virulent source of toxin, laughing at these mobs that get infected... they are already dead, just living meat bags for a short time to spread the spores.

Good work DE <3

Oh and... rising Armor reduction for spore infested mobs over time would be a nice addition. I play solo often and mod my weapons for toxin or gas when using saryn, so i can't use corrosive builds and wasting higher spore procs when i switch to a secondary with that status. An qol Augemt  would be nice.

[aerosoul1337]

I feel she is completely another frame now.

Forget miasma.

Just spreading viral proc seems much much more efficient.

[akira_him]

I forgot the mention how could the synergy of miasma with viral/toxic proc could be better

First, miasma should double its own duration, reduce enemy armor and stagger per tick

An enemy that is affected by 

1. viral proc will drop health orbs

2. toxic proc will stagger per tick after the duration of miasma

when hitted by miasma, while spores guarantee a health orb drop

[viamont]

Been playing since the rework was live and i have new opinions about it:

 

I still stand that she needs a slight Stats buff:

 

Healt: Back to previous level

Armor: slight increase to 225

 

OR

 

Increase to her base speed to 1.05

Healt increase to previous level.

 

That said powers:

 

Spores: Work wonderfully, i been spreading my viral love trought all the place, the only chance it MIGHT need considering DE wants her to be a debuffer its:

 

a) reduce enemys speed by 5% per spore they have (this will give her a better CC)

b) or reduce damage of enemys adding a puncture proc (same thing, adds debuffs while the spores are active)

 

Molt: Needs a range buff 5/6/7/10 its to short, it should be increased to 5/8/12/15, that way her DoT will increase and allow her molt to draw more aggro for her, furthermore the molt should be granted  1/2/3 seconds of invulnerability so it can survive long enought on high level missions, its just one shooted at sertain points making it completly irrelevant.

 

One QoL change i feel it should also be done its to ADD a number on the Molt icon, one wich shows a bonus % of how much extra damage the molt its ready to add to miasma, also said damage should linger a couple of seconds eben if the molt its destroyed, that way the Miasma bonus damage can be much more reliable specially n high levels.

 

Toxic lash: If DE its still adamant about saryn being melee/caster the damage reduction of this power should be made active at all times and not only while parrying, that way she will become more tanky and have the tools necesary to go melee in a more eficient way.

 

Miasma: lastly miasma NEEDS to have her corrosive procc back, it was one of the reason she was still viable on high levels taking away the defense of her enemys, furthermore when an enemy its on the miasma range the stun should be increase by +1 second per procc (aka toxin and viral) that way she will have a slightly better CC while being rewarded for doing her combo

 

I hope DE reconsiders this little changes that im sure ( as a Saryn main user) will make other saryn players love her even more

[viamont]

im just going to copy paste my post for the mega tread but i tink this changes could be good to

 

Been playing since the rework was live and i have new opinions about it:

 

I still stand that she needs a slight Stats buff:

 

Healt: Back to previous level

Armor: slight increase to 225

 

OR

 

Increase to her base speed to 1.05

Healt increase to previous level.

 

That said powers:

 

Spores: Work wonderfully, i been spreading my viral love trought all the place, the only chance it MIGHT need considering DE wants her to be a debuffer its:

 

a) reduce enemys speed by 5% per spore they have (this will give her a better CC)

b) or reduce damage of enemys adding a puncture proc (same thing, adds debuffs while the spores are active)

 

Molt: Needs a range buff 5/6/7/10 its to short, it should be increased to 5/8/12/15, that way her DoT will increase and allow her molt to draw more aggro for her, furthermore the molt should be granted  1/2/3 seconds of invulnerability so it can survive long enought on high level missions, its just one shooted at sertain points making it completly irrelevant.

 

One QoL change i feel it should also be done its to ADD a number on the Molt icon, one wich shows a bonus % of how much extra damage the molt its ready to add to miasma, also said damage should linger a couple of seconds eben if the molt its destroyed, that way the Miasma bonus damage can be much more reliable specially n high levels.

 

Toxic lash: If DE its still adamant about saryn being melee/caster the damage reduction of this power should be made active at all times and not only while parrying, that way she will become more tanky and have the tools necesary to go melee in a more eficient way.

 

Miasma: lastly miasma NEEDS to have her corrosive procc back, it was one of the reason she was still viable on high levels taking away the defense of her enemys, furthermore when an enemy its on the miasma range the stun should be increase by +1 second per procc (aka toxin and viral) that way she will have a slightly better CC while being rewarded for doing her combo

 

I hope DE reconsiders this little changes that im sure ( as a Saryn main user) will make other saryn players love her even more

[Denwise]

I second that feeling man... This "Saryn this... Saryn that" is absolute BS. Just shut up and play the game already. If you don't like her rework, just play someone else.

Personally I have never really played as Saryn, just never felt she fit my play style. the main reason, her other three abilities were underwhelming and I didn't want to have to score up all my energy for a p42win option... So touché lol

 

And the same exact thing would've been said to you prior to the rework. Don't like Saryn? Then play another frame. Didn't fit your play-style? Just play someone else and just shut up, as you would put it. Others enjoyed how she was, obviously. Look at how this thread has grown.

[RealPandemonium]

Miasma: lastly miasma NEEDS to have her corrosive procc back, it was one of the reason she was still viable on high levels taking away the defense of her enemys

Miasma has never been able to proc.  Making assertions about features that never existed brings the legitimacy of a lot of these feedback posts into question.

Edited November 9, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[PsiWarp]

Just thought of something for Molt that could let Saryn tank with the best of them.

 

- Casting Molt grants Saryn an additional 150 / 300 / 400 / 500 Armor (basically the same values as Molt's health).

- This Armor bonus scales with Power Strength and adds to Saryn's innate 175 Armor (1420 bonus armor at 284%/max strength)

- Additional armor lasts as long as Molt's ability duration (20 seconds at max ability rank). Armor bonus is kept until duration ends even if Molt is prematurely destroyed.

- Naturally, you can recast Molt to refresh armor bonus duration.

[Skirvy]

I believe I was referring to Saryn's performance and not one ability of itself.  If you want to compare the numbers of before versus now, I suggest reading this excellent post:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/557106-long-saryn-build-analysis-comparing-old-and-new-miasma-lots-of-math/

 

 

You realize that the post you linked me, after crunching numbers, summarizes by saying that the numbers alone are matched in optimal scenarios, then goes on to point out the flaws with the rework, right?

 

"If you always perfectly only cast new Miasma when everything is perfectly toxined and viraled, you're almost dead even with old Miasma. If you cast Miasma under ANYTHING OTHER THAN IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES, you're facing a severe nerf. This is not synergy. This is dependency."

 

"On a pure numbers basis, Old miasma and new miasma are well matched. Assuming perfect toxin and viral coverage, it's very possible to reach parity with old Miasma on a per cast basis - though you still have the new challenges of setting up that cast.

However, keep in mind what we've glossed over in our analysis. We just assumed viral and toxin procs everywhere. We've glossed over a ton of extra cost in time, energy, and effort to apply those procs. We've glossed over Molt having less range than Miasma, impairing the application of toxin procs. We've glossed over the inexplicable loss of corrosive procs on miasma, lowering our damage and our utility because we can no longer shred armor. We've glossed over viral procs not actually being a damage buff, but a health reduction that, now, returns some of that reduced health if it falls off. We've glossed over viral procs being not a unique aspect of Saryn's new kit inaccessible to either old Saryn or other players, but actually freely available to anyone fairly easily - which vastly lowers the unique benefit of bringing a Saryn to your party. We've also completely glossed over the problems with Saryn's other reworked abilities (and there ARE substantial problems). We've glossed over the health nerf to Saryn that we were told was going to be a buff."

 

You claimed it's been proven mathematically that it's not a nerf, but the person who wrote the post you linked as proof clearly disagrees with you.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Skirvy

[-dicht.Amducias-]

We call this the "knee-jerk reaction to things being different" phase. I'll wait to pass judgement until people have figured out how she works again.

Tbh she does not work at all in comparison to the other frames which are superior in any way.

[Rankii]

Tbh she does not work at all in comparison to the other frames which are superior in any way.

This.

[Weltraumfred]

I made a bunch of salty comments upthread on how Saryn is now S#&$. I want to add some constructive criticisms here:

 

Good things:

- Spore works fine

- Negative duration nuke Miasma needed to go, it was OP and frustrating for other players

 

Problems:

- Saryn is too fragile to use her powers efficiently, i.e. staying in the enemy fire while executing her combos, and melting her enemy over time

- Combos take too long to execute, teammates will usually blow the enemies up with faster and more efficient powers

- I made several runs on Draco, where I barely contributed anything to the fight

- she has no good role on a team, not as a tank, apart from her 1 she doesn't debuff/CC well, and DPS-wise she's also deeply suboptimal

 

Solutions:

Fragility

(I'd suggest using the first 2 options and either 3 or 4):

- reset base health to 150

- set armor to 300

- let Toxic Lash steal 1/2/3/5% life OR let it regenerate health based on the toxic procs she causes (I guess the first option is easier to implement)

- give Molt innate regeneration

 

Saryn's role

Okay, nuke frames are on their way out, so make her into an efficient debuffer with a dash of damage and tank instead (debuff cuz toxins weaken their vicitims):

- Spore is fine

- either give Molt 4 sec. invulnerability OR add slow-effect to everyone in range when Molt explodes, adding a possibility to remote-detonate the Molt by recasting, also let stretch affect the radius of the molt explosion

- turn Miasma into an armor corroding / stun power. Just let it do 200/ tick for 6 seconds (1400 total damage cuz tick at 0 seconds), and let it proc corrosive every time and stun the whole time

- If you don't add life steal on toxic lash (which I'd really recommend, see above) then let it slow procced enemies

- Your teammates will be thankful for a lot of viral'ed, corroded and slowed enemies

 

Qualitiy of life:

- turn Toxic Lash into a toggled power with a low drain, like 1.5/sec

- that would make executing combos easier

 

In this way, Saryn could tank a bit, debuff affecting speed, armor, and health of her enemies and do some damage with miasma herself (a lot if she pulls off a combo).

Edited November 9, 2015 by Weltraumfred

[Heatnix.]

Just as stated above Saryn has major issues surviving and some of her skills are worthless. If she's going to be forced into a Melee role, she can't be this frail. If Miasma is going to be worthless, let it at least cause corrosion. If Molt is going to require you to technically have the holy grail equipped so it can last, it better last longer or recover. If Saryn is going to be dependent on all her skills to be able to do ****, she better have plenty of energy to be able to be locked into her ridiculous set up.

 

I mean... seriously how can some people not see this? Do they even play Saryn or go beyond Venus? What the hell...

[DelialFallen]

You realize that the post you linked me, after crunching numbers, summarizes by saying that the numbers alone are matched in optimal scenarios, then goes on to point out the flaws with the rework, right?

 

"If you always perfectly only cast new Miasma when everything is perfectly toxined and viraled, you're almost dead even with old Miasma. If you cast Miasma under ANYTHING OTHER THAN IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES, you're facing a severe nerf. This is not synergy. This is dependency."

 

"On a pure numbers basis, Old miasma and new miasma are well matched. Assuming perfect toxin and viral coverage, it's very possible to reach parity with old Miasma on a per cast basis - though you still have the new challenges of setting up that cast.

However, keep in mind what we've glossed over in our analysis. We just assumed viral and toxin procs everywhere. We've glossed over a ton of extra cost in time, energy, and effort to apply those procs. We've glossed over Molt having less range than Miasma, impairing the application of toxin procs. We've glossed over the inexplicable loss of corrosive procs on miasma, lowering our damage and our utility because we can no longer shred armor. We've glossed over viral procs not actually being a damage buff, but a health reduction that, now, returns some of that reduced health if it falls off. We've glossed over viral procs being not a unique aspect of Saryn's new kit inaccessible to either old Saryn or other players, but actually freely available to anyone fairly easily - which vastly lowers the unique benefit of bringing a Saryn to your party. We've also completely glossed over the problems with Saryn's other reworked abilities (and there ARE substantial problems). We've glossed over the health nerf to Saryn that we were told was going to be a buff."

 

You claimed it's been proven mathematically that it's not a nerf, but the person who wrote the post you linked as proof clearly disagrees with you.

 

"EDIT: Actually, I made a mistake in my analysis. After we dump blind rage AND overextended, we actually have a third slot available (I edited post to reflect this - so if you're just reading this edit now you're probably confused about what I'm talking about). You can go for a third non-power-mod, or try to up your damage some more. In fact, CONSTITUTION gets you more damage than blind rage here.

So to be clear, the build I'm proposing as pretty close to optimal for new saryn is:

Constitution or Molt

Primed Cont.

R4 streamline

R4 Fleeting

Intensify

Stretch

Vit

Rage

Keep in mind that this is still not as good as old saryn (the whole point), but this gets you closer than any other build.

Double Edit: Thanks to https://www.reddit.c...and_new/cwqfs8u for pointing out a a huge hole in my analysis. My initial damage estimate of old Saryn's miasma was about 30 to 50% too high depending on the build. As a result, the entire analysis and the conclusions were necessarily quite off! I've corrected it as best I can tonight. You should also see his post https://www.reddit.c...analysis_17100/ where he has some good advice for new Saryn and discovers an interesting hidden feature: a multiplicative damage buff of apparently up to 100% based on missing HP of an exploded molt when you cast Miasma. It's a bit difficult to use in practice (trying to cast miasma RIGHT before a molt dies is very frustrating), but a very cool hidden way to gain some substantial extra damage."

 

Same thread I quoted.  Miasma got a functionality nerf, as I mentioned in the first post you responded to.  That is true.  Saryn, the warframe, however, got a significant buff overall.

[akira_him]

-snip-

 

Same thread I quoted.  Miasma got a functionality nerf, as I mentioned in the first post you responded to.  That is true.  Saryn, the warframe, however, got a significant buff overall.

significant buffed overall? for just 1 functional buff of spore you call it overall buff