Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Heatnix.]

No, there is no point in Saryn anymore. She cant do anything well. She fits no role.  Anything she does other frames do better. 

This is the worst rework ever.   DE did some good job on other frames...  but Saryn got nerfed into the grave.

It's especially sad that all our feedback on rework thread fell on deaf ears.

 

 

F

 

F.

 

There goes my favorite frame. Now I guess all I can do is join other squads and hope to get carried.

[BlackCoMerc]

And then come sweet little nulli to ruin your synergize gameplay

I'm thinking of a recent T3 Survival where we used Saryn as our room clearer, Nova to slow and increase damage. At one point, we had a narrow hallway with three - count them, 3 - Nullifers, sharing bubbles. Needless to say every enemy in that hallway fell under a bubble.

 

Now imagine you'd just spent nigh on 50+ energy to properly prep that hallway with Spores for an upcoming Miasma (and actually lived that long)...yeah, I think concerns about the Nullifiers canceling your Synergy is highly relevant.

 

Chalk this up to reason 1006 why Nullifiers were and are a bad idea.

[DSMatticus]

Here is my Frost build: 83% duration, 175% efficiency, 145% range, 180% str. Avalanche costs 25 energy and does 2700 damage in a 21.75m range. It provides 6.64 seconds of CC (freezes them solid) against enemies.

 

Here is my new Saryn build: 83% duration, 175% efficiency, 145% range, 180% str (you may think that the 83% duration is weird, but in the long run casting a weaker power more often is almost always more damage then casting a stronger power less often so yes I am running a R4 fleeting expertise). Miasma costs 25 energy and does 630 damage in a 21.75m range for 2.49 seconds. That's 1 initial tick + 2 extra ticks + 1 partial tick, for a total of 2198.7 damage.

 

So think about that: same energy cost, same range, same amount of time and effort, but Frost does 500 more damage AND 6.64 seconds of built-in crowd control AND also has one of the best utility powers in the game (snow globe).

 

If Saryn casts spore and puts a toxin proc on the target before popping it, which will take additional energy and time, she can get up to 6596 damage - comparable to old Saryn. But that takes time (reducing damage per second, which is what people actually used Saryn for) and energy (reducing energy efficiency) - putting other nuke frames ahead. And to be frank, other nuke Frames (like Frost and Ember) have better all around kits. Frost has great utility and very good CC. Ember's accelerant is secretly top-tier CC. So here's the million dollar question; what does Saryn actually contribute to a team over other options? And the answer is... nothing. Nothing at all.

 

Let's be frank; miasma needed a nerf, but it needed to come with versatility. Contagion needed to be replaced with some other ability that contributed to the team's success in some way, like how Frost has snow globe AND avalanche. She didn't get that, so now she's just a nuke frame who isn't actually all that great at nuking things.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Whatever happend to player adaptability?

[swihart91]

you know what i discovered? combos, put molt in the midle of a bunch of enemies, use spore on the molt decoy, hit miasma

 

 

 

everything is dead

ok but now you land that combo to do less damage, if you actually did higher damage in the end then yes it is worth it, but the need to balance your efficiency, strength, power and duration make it very difficult to reach where she was before

[CelticMoss]

you know what i discovered? combos, put molt in the midle of a bunch of enemies, use spore on the molt decoy, hit miasma

 

 

 

everything is dead

Miasma destorys molt so that is a very bad thing and it also doesn't stun anymore

[ToxicTroublermaker]

Whatever happend to player adaptability?

Entitlement and laziness happened

[BlackCoMerc]

Ok so i consider myself a relative fresh man to this game... let me give you the ONLY feedback i can...

I always play one game period, i dont play 20 different games like others, i quit Diablo 3 because it became a game where i had to press 1234 and then FINNALY 5 to actually do something.

I discovered this wonderfull game and have not played anything else but warframe for a month, i ask you kindly... do not go in this direction and take away my joy.

Also listen to the peoples feedback in here, they are right about energy problem, in a way ember still has energy issues if u want extra fire damage from 2 and have WOF on as much as possible... you simply have to spam 2 way too often.

Thank you kindly.

 

That's what this reminds me of: The stupid MMO "rotation" where you press 1,2,3, 4 to build up combo points, then finally the 5 for your Ult. Rinse. Repeat. Until you're literally sick. I get you.

 

Except...in those games a Nullifier cant walk into the room when you're about to press 4, and cancel 1-3 after you've lost all that energy...

 

Yeah, this sort of "synergy" is a bad idea. 

 

In Warframe Ultimate abilities need to do one of a few things:

 

-Crowd Control. Nyx, Loki, Nova and to a lesser extent Oberon about have that market cornered. 

 

-Kill: Ash and Saryn were tops at this until now, with Equinox and Mesa trailing slightly and Nova getting honorable mention for obvious reasons

 

-Buy serious time/space: This is a really unexplored area for the game, and one that I feel could use some attention. What if frames didnt so much kill everything, as clear huge swaths of space with knockback/knockdown telekinetic AoE type stuff.

 

Heal: Trinity and Oberon have the market cornered here. You really CANT improve on Blessing. Ever.

 

 

And then we have Saryn. Now she does...none of these things. Relegating her Ult to uselessness. Which drags her whole kit down. Sure Rage + Molt is good. Except...it just gives you more energy to Molt again, since the remainder of your kit is rendered largely useless by anything in the room with a weapon.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Entitlement and laziness happened

 

Sad but true.

[Eric1738]

Saryn can probably still deal the same amount of damage, but it will be slower and cost more energy. I honestly hope the EHP nerf was a mistake. Since one of the reasons why Contagion was useless, was that Saryn is too easy to die when melee. Now the problem only gets worse. The bonus block damage reduction is pretty much useless, since you cant block bullets from behind.

[(PSN)kira4715]

I'm curious why miasma no longer stuns so saryn now needs to cast more abilitys then before but deals less damage with no stun how is this a buff?

[izzatuw]

I'm curious why miasma no longer stuns so saryn now needs to cast more abilitys then before but deals less damage with no stun how is this a buff?

She still stuns afaik. i've used it and they get stunned.

 

and you say you don't need to play it to figure it out.

[achromos]

Don't worry, we still have the new and improved Ember.  :)

[Multicom-EN-]

Oh DE,,,I am speechless....

Take another look at Saryn, please.

[-Jiwa-]

I'm thinking of a recent T3 Survival where we used Saryn as our room clearer, Nova to slow and increase damage. At one point, we had a narrow hallway with three - count them, 3 - Nullifers, sharing bubbles. Needless to say every enemy in that hallway fell under a bubble.

 

Now imagine you'd just spent nigh on 50+ energy to properly prep that hallway with Spores for an upcoming Miasma (and actually lived that long)...yeah, I think concerns about the Nullifiers canceling your Synergy is highly relevant.

 

Chalk this up to reason 1006 why Nullifiers were and are a bad idea.

 

Just tested at T3S, only molt and her 3rd will be debuff by nulli and the spores still will be there at the enemy..But yeah it s annoying when you already prep a nice molt with spores and the nulli decided to jump on it...

[sammun]

Since the ult is affected by possitive duration now, you killed the minus duration builds.

sub 100% duration allowed you to deal more damage with miasma, which in turn allowed you to use overextend and still deal decent damage.

So before we had to invest on +power, +range and +efficiency to play her effectively, but now, you have to invest in all of that, PLUS duration if you want decent damage, and to have duration above 100% one has to avoid fleeting expertise, which is very bad, considering how much energy it takes to cast her ult.

 

Suggestions:

Increase miasma, like seriously it is pathetically small

Decrease miasma energy cost.

 

also these suggestions are also good

 

Suggestions:

 

-Spores need to be a Cone or AoE cast; one target is useless

 

-Spores need to spread with every tic

 

-Her 3 needs to apply to ranged weapons as well as melee. If I want to make things dead up close, I have three other frames, any of which does the job FAR, FAR better than Saryn (even Atlas) and a fourth who has a 50% chance of freezing anyone who touches him.

 

-NONE of her abilities should cost more than 50 damage as a base cost. If you're going to force "Synergy" (aka, remarkable levels of inefficiency) then at least lower energy costs. Otherwise, Make Miasma useful on its own once more.

 

-Give Miasma back Corrosive. IF you do all of the above, you can even have Miasm deal Toxic damage, and only deal corrosive to enemies who were already toxic. But ONLY if Spores cast as AoE or Cone and spread more often and more easily. And pop on their own.

 

-Also, no more damage over time. Yours is a horde mode game. Waiting for enemies to die means I may as well bring a frame that does not depend on killing them in a blink, like Nyx, instead.

[swihart91]

Whatever happend to player adaptability?

 

this isnt about player adaptability its how much the enrgy and time cost went up to land a combo that will rarely do the same damage as miasma alone did before

[--Sensei--]

So......... when do we get forma distillers? I kind of want to move some formas off my Saryn into something more useful.

[Kastorius]

Ah, you're expecting to one-shot level 100 enemies still? Welcome to everyone else in the game, party of everyone. 

 

Mirage can very easily one-shot entire groups of level 100 enemies time after time, with very little energy overhead, is fast, has excellent defensive capability, and also has one of the best CC abilities in the game.

 

Ever tried Mirage using a maxed-out Ignis with Sinister Reach, 284% Power Strength, and Hall of Malevolence, standing in light with Eclipse? You can bathe T4D in cleansing flame, trashing busloads of enemies per second for a bare minimum of 60 waves if running 4xCP. Add Banshee for 120+ waves.

 

Mirage "rework" incoming. They've already experimented with a bit of a nerf for "performance reasons."

Edited November 5, 2015 by Kastorius

[Jaypalm]

I know everyone at DE was really excited about this rework and worked hard on it, but unfortunately this change took the game's most powerful end game burst frame (Nyxing Equinox) and made her the most complex and cost intensive frame for mid-game damage over time. I really wish I could dance around with you about the "newest" and most interactive skill set to date, but now every ability is too reliant on everything else in the skill set.

 

The new Saryn synergy thing is great and all, but as many have stated it's just too expensive to keep up with in the heat of battle without a Trinity. At base values, an effective Miasma basically costs 175 energy at least. Spores being a one handed ability helps a lot so you don't have to stop movement, but it is still a fairly difficult ability to place properly since most enemies are dying too quickly to capitalize on it.

If you're trying to use Toxic Lash, you're just taking your now less durable Saryn into the middle of a heap of enemies so slash once, then Miasma and wait for everything to keel over.

Make lash a toggle! If it is a toggle of the same nature as Equinox's Pacify/Provoke, that is it only drains energy when you use a melee, it'll not only reduce combo cost, but it'll reduce the number of casting animations necessary to really dish out damage.

 

Additionally, this guy has some great points.

I know lots of people have posted this already, but reposting might help flag this as an issue instead of just 'liking' similar posts

Saryn is now far too dependent on basically every stat. 

You can't sacrifice strength or all of your damage just plummets, leaving you with basically nothing but the ability to spread viral procs

You can't sacrifice efficiency or your now-powerful abilities become too expensive, since you need to cast so much

You can't sacrifice range or almost all your abilities become preposterously useless, spores won't spread and you'll effectively have no AoE damage

You can't sacrifice duration because now literally everything benefits from duration.



I'd say buff the base range values and the base damage of everything she has, so tanking a little in those areas won't be as impacting, and keeping them at standard values is still ok. This would let you build for efficiency/duration, which are now much more essential than before. It also means that running higher strength or higher range becomes a more worthwhile sacrifice for the efficiency/duration you're losing, since better base strength/range would make those builds much more effective

Edit: Because Miasma now can't do burst DPS, the fact that it only affects targets present at the time is incredibly detrimental. To compensate, make it an AoE effect that persists in the area for its duration, stunning enemies as they enter. This reduces the effective damage loss it has suffered, and also means its low range is slightly less detrimental. To make it much better, make it stackable, so multiple zones overlapping deal multiplied damage. This lets high duration/efficiency builds create cheap superzones at choke points that deal very high damage, and give the player a bit more time to focus on spreading spores (and further increase the miasma damage).

Also make it so once an enemy has entered the Miasma cloud, they take the full amount of remaining damage even if they leave the area (otherwise it would become even worse)

Double Edit: Because of how difficult it is to make use of the new synergy (it's hard to stack spores on something while keeping it alive, then hitting it with Toxic Lash at an opportune time to maximise spreading) the mechanic needs a quick fix. Spores should pop instantly on enemy death and spread at its normal range. Spores popped by Toxic Lash need to spread at an increased range. I'm thinking an extra 50% range, to reward players who play smart and react quickly, but without penalizing other players. I like difficult mechanics to master, but not when every other warframe's mechanics are so much easier and more effective.

 

Miasma is most often imagined as a deadly or noxious fog. Even if it still only lasts 3 seconds, a fog that will affect enemies that enter it after the fact to receive those damage ticks will be a huge improvement not only to the ability's viability, but towards keeping it true to its name.

Spores really should detonate automatically if the enemy dies before the spores kill them. It's pain enough that they're practically essential to getting any damage from Miasma, but it's worse that if the enemy dies before you get to them with Lash, it's a wasted 25 energy.

Edited November 5, 2015 by -CM-Jaypalm

[Heatnix.]

this isnt about player adaptability its how much the enrgy and time cost went up to land a combo that will rarely do the same damage as miasma alone did before

 

It's pretty much this. Adapting is one thing, being given a rock to fight a horde of robot dinosaurs is another.

 

Saryn is worthless now. She depends on using ALL her skills in a combo to do LESS damage than she did before and got an HP nerf with such a minor armor increase that she's, in fact, less tankish. She's just pointless. There's no reason to play Saryn since everyone else can do better in every single aspect that Saryn is supposed to do.

[EmptyDevil]

Her changes were nice but some abilities could use a bit more.

 

Spore

 

This ability should also slow down enemy movement until you burst the tumors. A 50% movement reduction would be nice.

 

Miasma

 

Each tick should stagger the enemy. It should also have a 100% chance to proc corrosive proc.

Edited November 5, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[Drinniol]

 

 

 

 

 

...not really a nerf.

 

DE just de-emphasizes the min-max built... But this is also another choice. It's neither good nor evil. People who have complained causing DE to make this decision failed (or could care little) to recognize it's just another choice that they tried to force down on people using min-max/Saryn the way they hated.

 

It's just like now suddenly a rush to force players to be active on every frame and every ability... and a self-animated ability is a bane of Warframe... It's awesome that many abilities are active, but it doesn't have to be ALL and EVERY. Variety and diversity should equally be emphasized. Regardless whether DE has been conditioned to think this way or only able to see one way, DE just wants to survive and thrive with Warframe.

 

  It's a nerf man.  The ideas sound good, but the numbers behind them are just... terrible. 

 

The best kit in the world doesn't mean anything if the numbers are too low to dent enemies. 

 

It's like Atlas was at release.  Solid kit IDEAS, no numbers to back it up.  Like, it's real rad to pummel your enemies with your manly stonefists, and to get damage bonus for comboing - but if the base damage is piddling you just end up feeling like an idiot as you watch each mighty blow only take a sliver off that heavy gunner's health. 

 

She needs the Atlas treatment - vast buffs to all the numbers throughout her kit, with additional scaling elements.  The damage bonuses for toxin and miasma, for instance, should scale with power strength.  Or, Miasma should get a bonus to damage to ALL enemies in range based on how many enemies in range have toxin or viral on them.  Frankly, you can only move through most packs as fast as you kill the last enemy, so needed to literally apply toxin and viral to EVERY enemy to clear a pack is a non-starter.  If the bonus applied to everything, based on how many enemies you had tagged with toxin and viral, that would feel way better and you'd have innate scaling with enemy density and power range (hit more enemies -> bigger miasma bonus).

 

I think the kit has potential, but it's gutter tier with the current numbers and scaling.  Don't pretend that's not a nerf from old Saryn. 

[--Sensei--]

The new Saryn synergy thing is great and all, but as many have stated it's just too expensive to keep up with in the heat of battle without a Trinity. At base values, an effective Miasma basically costs 175 energy at least. Spores being a one handed ability helps a lot so you don't have to stop movement, but it is still a fairly difficult ability to place properly since most enemies are dying too quickly to capitalize on it.

If you're trying to use Toxic Lash, you're just taking your now less durable Saryn into the middle of a heap of enemies so slash once, then Miasma and wait for everything to keel over.

Make lash a toggle! If it is a toggle of the same nature as Equinox's Pacify/Provoke, that is it only drains energy when you use a melee, it'll not only reduce combo cost, but it'll reduce the number of casting animations necessary to really dish out damage.

 

Additionally, this guy has some great points.

Miasma is most often imagined as a deadly or noxious fog. Even if it still only lasts 3 seconds, a fog that will affect enemies that enter it after the fact to receive those damage ticks will be a huge improvement not only to the ability's viability, but towards keeping it true to its name.

Spores really should detonate automatically if the enemy dies before the spores kill them. It's pain enough that they're practically essential to getting any damage from Miasma, but it's worse that if the enemy dies before you get to them with Lash, it's a wasted 25 energy.

 

Totally agree, that's my most number 1 gripe, if they're trying to create synergy, failing pretty hard with the energy costs costing so much for so little return.

 

why spend almost 100-200 energy to do nil dmg combos when I can spend 25-50 energy with mesa/ash to do the same or even more dmg? Quicker I might add.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

this isnt about player adaptability its how much the enrgy and time cost went up to land a combo that will rarely do the same damage as miasma alone did before

To me at the very least, she is much better at causing persistent damage and procs. Reducing a whole field of enemies to half health for 25 energy and a bullet is pretty useful. Finding new ways to succeed is a trait that allows players to make the best of their experience. It just disappoints me when I see people complain, but are unwilling to try and work past a problem through trying a new way.