Separate Duration And Efficiency For Toggled Abilities

[Stormdragon]

I'm gonna quote stratego just because he said the same as me but without using numbers, leaving the "timed toggle abilities" far behind.

Think of it this way. +duration = energy is taken in the same amount but less often = ability stays up longer. +efficiency = energy is taken at a smaller amount but at the same frequency = ability stays up longer. It's a win win.

This change was good. A very very big level of good.

At least to me, this is just basic reasoning if we keep in mind that toggle abilities "timer" is your energy bar instead of an actual timer, thus building for 200% duration will keep toggle abilities working double time over a 100% build and 4x time over a 50% one due to energy consumption rate.

quote taken from bubbabenali's link

Edited November 16, 2015 by -----LegioN-----

[Stratego89]

So... your complaint is "I cannot ignore this one stat completely- and forsake it." No. This is bad reasoning. When one skill can be forsaken to buff everything else to insane levels without consequence- there's no real "choice" when it comes to your builds. Having to decide carefully what you want is how build variety comes to be- build variety is good. The changes were good. There is no reason to change it back. At all.

[Laisha]

First of all, WoF was always affected by duration. There has NEVER been a point where duration didn't matter for WoF. Based on this knowledge one should not use it as an example for why toggle powers shouldn't use duration and efficiency.

 

 

Did people really forget how poopy the pseudo-toggle WoF was when compared to the first set-it-and-forget-it iteration? I suppose people just see the extremely energy-efficient WoF that we have now and instantly forget what it took to get there.

 

Some may argue that the relatively recent change of them making WoF a 'true toggle power' has finally taken away the need of duration for aforementioned power which is partly true depending on which corrupted mods you actively use.

 

As it stands, toggle powers actually benefit from the full +90% efficiency that we can have with needing a bare minimum of 40%(-60%) duration to hit the toggle power efficiency cap. Using this knowledge coupled with applying a little field testing one can make an extremely powerful afk WoF build without having to worry too much about duration.

 

 

[Autongnosis]

The only thing that actually saddens me about the change is that it killed Chroma support build with range/efficiency and some strenght, you could keep Effigy up forever and heal constantly yourself and your allies. Now Effigy drain gets humongous due to the forced minimum duration.

I don't feel like the change is senseless. It's actually good, and makes you think a bit more about how to mod your frames.

[Stormdragon]

I don't feel like the change is senseless. It's actually good, and makes you think a bit more about how to mod your frames.

Sadly there seems to be a lot of players who hate thinking and start complaining because its much easier

Edited November 16, 2015 by -----LegioN-----

[NN13]

I'm gonna quote stratego just because he said the same as me but without using numbers, leaving the "timed toggle abilities" far behind.

At least to me, this is just basic reasoning if we keep in mind that toggle abilities "timer" is your energy bar instead of an actual timer, thus building for 200% duration will keep toggle abilities working double time over a 100% build and 4x time over a 50% one due to energy consumption rate.

quote taken from bubbabenali's link

 

 

So... your complaint is "I cannot ignore this one stat completely- and forsake it." No. This is bad reasoning. When one skill can be forsaken to buff everything else to insane levels without consequence- there's no real "choice" when it comes to your builds. Having to decide carefully what you want is how build variety comes to be- build variety is good. The changes were good. There is no reason to change it back. At all.

To both Legion and Stratego89 -

 

Fair enough, I stand corrected. But, then again, both duration and efficiency cap the energy consumption at +75%. What I am trying to say is that, after using Fleeting Expertise and Streamline to achieve +75% efficiency, energy consumption per second is not reduced further even if I use 200% duration.

Technically, if the mechanism was to be fair towards both toggle and timed abilities, the my ember's WoF with 175% efficiency and 200% duration should spend 0.38 energy/second.

But, that is not the case for toggle abilities. With the above setup, WoF energy consumption is capped at 0.75/sec. But this is not the case for Fire Blast. Fire Blast, being a timer ability, benefits from both efficiency and duration. It costs 19 energy and also lasts 40 seconds.

 

This is exactly why there lies a problem when comparing toggle abilities and timed abilities. They do not follow same set of rules.

 

First of all, WoF was always affected by duration. There has NEVER been a point where duration didn't matter for WoF. Based on this knowledge one should not use it as an example for why toggle powers shouldn't use duration and efficiency.

 

 

Did people really forget how poopy the pseudo-toggle WoF was when compared to the first set-it-and-forget-it iteration? I suppose people just see the extremely energy-efficient WoF that we have now and instantly forget what it took to get there.

 

Some may argue that the relatively recent change of them making WoF a 'true toggle power' has finally taken away the need of duration for aforementioned power which is partly true depending on which corrupted mods you actively use.

 

As it stands, toggle powers actually benefit from the full +90% efficiency that we can have with needing a bare minimum of 40%(-60%) duration to hit the toggle power efficiency cap. Using this knowledge coupled with applying a little field testing one can make an extremely powerful afk WoF build without having to worry too much about duration.

This thread is about every toggle ability. WoF was just an example, one that is the most famous one.

[Azamagon]

On the topic of this discussion, I both agreed and disagreed.

 

I agreed with the direct fact that Duration shouldn't affect toggled abilities' energy cost.

 

But, I disagreed entirely that Duration (or any stat for that matter) should be "redundant" for toggled abilities (or any ability for that matter). I have always promoted that ALL powers should be affected by ALL stats (to quote Laisha from this very thread: "Your actions negative-stats have consequences...")

Note that I don't think that all stats need to be as important on every ability on every frame though (like Loki, even if his abilities benefitted from Power Strength somehow, I don't see many people building around that attribute anyway. But they COULD!), but they should do SOMETHING to EVERY ability. Which is important both in regards to choice and balance.

 

With the Example of Ember's WoF - What if she left decently powerful patches fire on the ground as she walked around? Then the duration of how long those patches linger coud be affected by Power Duration. Stuff like that, THAT is how I think they should've taken Duration into consideration for toggled abilities. That way, duration could matter. It wouldn't be ESSENTIAL, but it would let people potentially have fun THEIR way.

 

If you make one or many stats completely redudant on a 'frame, you reduce modding variety, modding potentials and modding consequences.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Azamagon

[Stratego89]

This is exactly why there lies a problem when comparing toggle abilities and timed abilities. They do not follow same set of rules.

There is no problem. This is the whole point.

[Laisha]

This post is all just a reiteration of redundant and obvious information. Move along.

 

Fair enough, I stand corrected. But, then again, both duration and efficiency cap the energy consumption at +75%. What I am trying to say is that, after using Fleeting Expertise and Streamline to achieve +75% efficiency, energy consumption per second is not reduced further even if I use 200% duration.

 

Yes, efficiency above 75% is calculated in the end-result for toggle powers. The game caps powers by a minimum cost of 25% of their given values using the following formula:

Energy/s = Base Energy/s * (1-Power Efficiency)/(1+PowerDuration)

With duration now playing a role in toggle powers a warframe like:

Nyx who has a maximum of +105% efficiency(30+60+15 from the arcane helmet) can actually utilize all of her efficiency to make her Absorb cost the bare-minimum (1) while bringing her duration down by -88%(though, why would a nyx want power strength..?)

 

Banshee who has a maximum of 100% efficiency(30+60+10 from the arcane helmet) can utilize all of her efficiency to make her Soundquake cost the bare-minimum (3) while bringing her duration down by -88%

 

Mesa who has a maximum of +90% efficiency(30+60) can actually utilize all of her efficiency to make her Peacemaker cost the bare-minimum (3.75) while bringing her duration down by -60%

It is more efficient to use power efficiency instead of power duration on toggle powers(for obvious reasons). Now, the careful balancing of paper stats with the limited amount of mod slots is a bit jarring at first glance and can sometimes leave people in a tizzy as to how to properly mod themselves for actual play.

Now for my opinion.

 

Do I have any problems with the new toggle system?

Yes and no. The system works as advertised and I have no problems with the actual system as a whole. I generally like the idea that Your negative stats have consequences.

 

I just can't shake off the feeling that all my builds are now streamlined to be almost the exact same. Just like weapons are currently I have this feeling that if future warframes have toggle powers then I have up to 6 mods in mind that are mandatory for powerplay(you know, if the toggle power is actually worth using and building around instead of the other powers). I hate this feeling, I truly do.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Laisha

[NN13]

There is no problem. This is the whole point.

So, you somehow consider similar mechanisms for both toggled and timed abilities, but then, you say that its perfectly fine if they follow different set of rules for calculating the values while using the exact same setup?

 

No, this is not the point. This is clearly inconsistency, if I follow your logic.

 

And I thought I would reason with you. Silly me.

 

 

 

With the Example of Ember's WoF - What if she left decently powerful patches fire on the ground as she walked around? Then the duration of how long those patches linger coud be affected by Power Duration. Stuff like that, THAT is how I think they should've taken Duration into consideration for toggled abilities. That way, duration could matter. It wouldn't be ESSENTIAL, but it would let people potentially have fun THEIR way.

 

If you make one or many stats completely redudant on a 'frame, you reduce modding variety, modding potentials and modding consequences.

And this is how innovative abilities are made. This is how abilities SHOULD be made. Give them a proper mechanism that can make use of the particular mod. Don't force it just for the sake of it.

 

+1 to you.

[NN13]

This post is all just a reiteration of redundant and obvious information. Move along.

 

 

Yes, efficiency above 75% is calculated in the end-result for toggle powers. The game caps powers by a minimum cost of 25% of their given values using the following formula:

Energy/s = Base Energy/s * (1-Power Efficiency)/(1+PowerDuration)

With duration now playing a role in toggle powers a warframe like:

Nyx who has a maximum of +105% efficiency(30+60+15 from the arcane helmet) can actually utilize all of her efficiency to make her Absorb cost the bare-minimum (1) while bringing her duration down by -88%(though, why would a nyx want power strength..?)

 

Banshee who has a maximum of 100% efficiency(30+60+10 from the arcane helmet) can utilize all of her efficiency to make her Soundquake cost the bare-minimum (3) while bringing her duration down by -88%

 

Mesa who has a maximum of +90% efficiency(30+60) can actually utilize all of her efficiency to make her Peacemaker cost the bare-minimum (3.75) while bringing her duration down by -60%

It is more efficient to use power efficiency instead of power duration on toggle powers(for obvious reasons). Now, the careful balancing of paper stats with the limited amount of mod slots is a bit jarring at first glance and can sometimes leave people in a tizzy as to how to properly mod themselves for actual play.

Now for my opinion.

 

Do I have any problems with the new toggle system?

Yes and no. The system works as advertised and I have no problems with the actual system as a whole. I generally like the idea that Your negative stats have consequences.

 

I just can't shake off the feeling that all my builds are now streamlined to be almost the exact same. Just like weapons are currently I have this feeling that if future warframes have toggle powers then I have up to 6 mods in mind that are mandatory for powerplay(you know, if the toggle power is actually worth using and building around instead of the other powers). I hate this feeling, I truly do.

Yes, I know DE capped efficiency at +75% for balance purpose.

 

But then, if that is true, then, Legion's and Stratego89's logic can not be true.

 

As for Banshee and others', if now Banshee can utilise 100% efficiency while bringing down her duration by -88%, before this change, she could utilise her 100% efficiency even if she brought down her duration by -95% and increased her strength by +45% using Blind Rage. Now, if I do that, it will reduce my efficiency.

So, what you think is an advantage is not exactly and advantage.

[KaeseSchnitte]

Hmm? I don't get some people...If you have a maxed streamline and maxed fleeting expertise with at least 40% duration you will keep your toggle powers up for the efficiency cap.

 

Using Transient fortitude with something like constitution will allow you to keep the efficiency cap with your toggle abilities.

 

 

"Oh, but what about my slots?!?!"

Your actions negative-stats have consequences...

They have. Negative durations would still influnce the time the enemies would suffer from the burn debuff. They shouldn't just have unrelated consequences. If I want to increase my efficiency, I should boost my efficiency, not my duration aswell.

[KaeseSchnitte]

Optimizing for WoF won't make accelerant worse, it'll make it better since you're prolonging duration anyway. And since It also buffs heat damage, WoF's damage is increased. It also increases damage of heat on your weapons which isn't a bad thing.

If we look over the fact that I'm not talking about Accelerant at all, it would still be worse if I drop duration, like I would be able to before the change.

[KaeseSchnitte]

So... your complaint is "I cannot ignore this one stat completely- and forsake it." No. This is bad reasoning. When one skill can be forsaken to buff everything else to insane levels without consequence- there's no real "choice" when it comes to your builds. Having to decide carefully what you want is how build variety comes to be- build variety is good. The changes were good. There is no reason to change it back. At all.

Even with the change reverted, I'd still have negative consequences with lower duration, even on World on Fire itself. So your argument doesn't apply at all. I'd just not get lower efficiency, which makes sense, since there is already a stat that affect the efficiency, called efficiency.

Edited November 16, 2015 by KaeseSchnitte

[Laisha]

Yes, I know DE capped efficiency at +75% for balance purpose.

 

But then, if that is true, then, Legion's and Stratego89's logic can not be true.

 

As for Banshee and others', if now Banshee can utilise 100% efficiency while bringing down her duration by -88%, before this change, she could utilise her 100% efficiency even if she brought down her duration by -95% and increased her strength by +45% using Blind Rage. Now, if I do that, it will reduce my efficiency.

So, what you think is an advantage is not exactly and advantage.

 

I see what you're trying to get at now.

 

You want to be superhero while I want to be just a person in powered armor.

 

You want all the power at relatively low/no cost to yourself while I enjoy seeing and knowing the flaws of my suit and taking extra precautions in order to not liquidate my assets.

 

In the heat of battle I am constantly thinking about my position on the battlefield in order to not have my flaws taken advantage of by my enemies while you go all out on 'em and ignore the superficial damage you may or may not have sustained.

 

There is nothing more to be said from me.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Laisha

[KaeseSchnitte]

I see what you're trying to get at now.

 

You want to be superhero while I want to be just a person in powered armor.

 

You want all the power at relatively low/no cost to yourself while I enjoy seeing and knowing the flaws of my suit and taking extra precautions in order to not liquidate my assets.

 

There is nothing more to be said from me.

I fail to see a problem. So is a min-/maxed warframe now "overpowered"? Are guns that have like 300% more damage and 2.8 multishot overpowered too? You do realise that the game is built around these mods, don't you? And even if Banshee would now be stronger that other warframes, which is definitely not the case, what is the problem for having some warframes that are easier to play than others?

Edited November 16, 2015 by KaeseSchnitte

[Stormdragon]

There is nothing more to be said from me.

Totally agree

I'm done here too

[Laisha]

I fail to see a problem. So is a min-/maxed warframe now "overpowered"? Are guns that have like 300% more damage and 2.8 multishot overpowered too? You do realise that the game is built around these mods, don't you? And even if Banshee would now be stronger that other warframes, which is definitely not the case, what is the problem for having some warframes that are easier to play than others?

 

The problem is more of a state-of-mind.

 

I cannot truly find the words to explain it, sadly.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Laisha

[NN13]

I see what you're trying to get at now.

 

You want to be superhero while I want to be just a person in powered armor.

 

You want all the power at relatively low/no cost to yourself while I enjoy seeing and knowing the flaws of my suit and taking extra precautions in order to not liquidate my assets.

 

In the heat of battle I am constantly thinking about my position on the battlefield in order to not have my flaws taken advantage of by my enemies while you go all out on 'em and ignore the superficial damage you may or may not have sustained.

 

There is nothing more to be said from me.

Not at all. Mocking me isn't helping your case, since the logic of duration affecting efficiency as given by Stratego and Legion is flawed and there seems to be no counter argument to my argument as to why similar mechanism are supposed to follow entirely different set of rules for calculation.

 

No, I do not want to abilities to cost less than what it already is. Infact, I am one of those who thinks Fleeting Expertise is the biggest mistake of Warframe.

My complain lies somewhere else. Warframe might be space magic. But programming logic is not space magic. You can not compare 2 mechanisms with same logic and say that there is no problem if those 2 follow different rules of mathematics. That is a fallacy.

 

Oh, and I do not go all out. If that were to be true, then, Loki wouldn't have been my most used warframe.

 

Actually, you are right. There is nothing more to say. Because now we are at that point where a few people want to stay firm on their ground without any explanation, even though, a flaw has been mentioned in their logic.

 

Totally agree

I'm done here too

So am I.

Because it seems you guys/gals do not have the counter-argument to defend your "logical" change anymore.

[KaeseSchnitte]

The problem is more of a state-of-mind.

 

I cannot truly find the words to explain it, sadly.

Well, then it's your opinion that this change doesn't need to be reverted, just as it is my opinion that it should be reverted, which is perfectly fine. I'm just saying that not all warframes need to be mechanically super enganging, some can be simpler too.

Edited November 16, 2015 by KaeseSchnitte

[Laisha]

Not at all. Mocking me isn't helping your case, since the logic of duration affecting efficiency as given by Stratego and Legion is flawed and there seems to be no counter argument to my argument as to why similar mechanism are supposed to follow entirely different set of rules for calculation.

 

No, I do not want to abilities to cost less than what it already is. Infact, I am one of those who thinks Fleeting Expertise is the biggest mistake of Warframe.

My complain lies somewhere else. Warframe might be space magic. But programming logic is not space magic. You can not compare 2 mechanisms with same logic and say that there is no problem if those 2 follow different rules of mathematics. That is a fallacy.

 

Oh, and I do not go all out. If that were to be true, then, Loki wouldn't have been my most used warframe.

 

Actually, you are right. There is nothing more to say. Because now we are at that point where a few people want to stay firm on their ground without any explanation, even though, a flaw has been mentioned in their logic.

 

So am I.

Because it seems you guys/gals do not have the counter-argument to defend your "logical" change anymore.

 

I wasn't trying to mock you I was just using a quick example.

 

So...you just want a logical explanation for things within the game..? Well then, good luck on the space doge egg bit(I've actually had a discussion out it once...best three hours spent)

 

Well, then it's your opinion that this change doesn't need to be reverted, just as it is my opinion that it should be reverted, which is perfectly fine. I'm just saying that not all warframes need to be mechanically super enganging, some can be simpler too.

 

Indeed, just differing opinions. Nothing to do but restate the opinions in different ways using different words until the end of time.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Laisha

[NN13]

I wasn't trying to mock you I was just using a quick example.

 

So...you just want a logical explanation for things within the game..? Well then, good luck on the space doge egg bit(I've actually had a discussion out it once...best three hours spent)

 

 

Indeed, just differing opinions. Nothing to do but restate the opinions in different ways using different words until the end of time.

As I said, Warframe can be space magic, but logic of the programmer and mathematics can not belong to Rift Plane. It has to belong to this plane.

[Stormdragon]

As I said, Warframe can be space magic, but logic of the programmer and mathematics can not belong to Rift Plane. It has to belong to this plane.

Logic has been explained many times. If you don't want to understand it, not our problem nor turns how this mechanic works into "space magic".

On the other hand, a closed mind refused to comprehend something will hold onto anything just to keep thinking to be right, "flawing" any logical explanation.

efficiency = energy drain per tick.

Duration = delay between energy drain ticks

+ efficiency = less energy drained in a single tick.

- efficiency = more energy drained per tick

+ Duration = longer delay between energy drain ticks = less energy drain ticks in a set time = less energy wasted in set time = higher efficiency

- Duration = shorter delay between energy drain ticks = more drain ticks in a set time = more energy wasted in set time = lower efficiency

Do some maths / field testing and you'll realise how and why it works like this for toggled abilities and how you can now have a duration/efficiency balance allowing for a low eff/high duration build drain the same energy in a set time as a low duration/high eff one, giving variety on gameplay (no penalty for using a different skillset than meta builds), what allows minmaxing different skills and keep good results to different abilities from the same skillset...

It's not rocket science nor space magic, just a little logics

Edited November 16, 2015 by -----LegioN-----

[NN13]

efficiency = energy drain per tick.

Duration = delay between energy drain ticks

+ efficiency = less energy drained in a single tick.

- efficiency = more energy drained per tick

+ Duration = longer delay between energy drain ticks = less energy drain ticks in a set time = less energy wasted in set time = higher efficiency

- Duration = shorter delay between energy drain ticks = more drain ticks in a set time = more energy wasted in set time = lower efficiency

Do some maths / field testing and you'll realise how and why it works like this for toggled abilities and how you can now have a duration/efficiency balance allowing for a low eff/high duration build drain the same energy in a set time as a low duration/high eff one, giving variety on gameplay (no penalty for using a different skillset than meta builds), what allows minmaxing different skills and keep good results to different abilities from the same skillset...

It's not rocket science nor space magic, just a little logics

Yes, that logic is perfectly fine, except Warframe ceases to follow it once you reach the efficiency cap.

 

+ Duration DOES NOT affect your efficiency once you have 175% efficiency through your efficiency mods.

 

"+ Duration = longer delay between energy drain ticks = less energy drain ticks in a set time = less energy wasted in set time = higher efficiency"

This does not happen if you have 175% efficiency.

 

By your logic, a 175% efficient WoF with 100% duration should spend 0.75 energy/second. This is true.

But, by the same logic, a 175% efficient WoF with 200% duration should spend 0.75 energy / 2 second,i.e., 0.38 energy / second. this does not happen.

 

And that is why, either your logic is not what DE had in mind or DE acted stubborn and attached the 75% efficiency cap rule to duration mods as well, which is the "inconsistency" I am talking about.

 

Basic mathematics rule - One counter-example is enough to prove a theorem wrong.

 

Therefore I believe you are the one who needs to do some field testing.

 

And, even after this, if you do not understand what I am trying to convey, I think no one else will be able to make you understand.

Edited November 17, 2015 by NN13

[TheBrsrkr]

So now you actually have to consider how to mod your frame all around instead of throwing on corrupted mods with no significant loss? Working as intended.