Wukong's 'defy' Should Belong To Atlas

[Stratego89]

Have you played Valkyr?

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/563379-improving-valkyr-hysteria-is-not-the-only-problem/#entry6369116

 

Does this answer your question? Just because someone says something is too powerful- insinuating they say it like some sort of idiot who thinks other things are not is straight up rude. You're like the 12th person today or something that has said this, and it's officially starting to piss me off.

 

Can everyone just knock it off with the "you think this is OP- what about Valkyr?" stuff already?? THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT VALKYR. PLEASE STOP ASSUMING ANYONE WHO HAS AN OPINION THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM YOURS IS SOME KIND OF IDIOT.

[IceColdHawk]

 

No- Wukong's defy should... NOT EVEN EXIST. It is WAAAAAAAY too OP. I'm just waiting for the nerf... Like- legit. This is literally why rage/quick thinking was nerfed. It's literally the old combo before the nerf, and is OP for the same reason the combo WAS nerfed.

 

 

Some people just don't get the meaning of "OP" (=overpowered) but still screaming for a nerf that's outright sad.

 

Lemme teach you what "overpowered" really means....

 

Something is op when it is so strong, that nothing else can compete. When this is the meta and the only true way to easily succeed in the game. Ye, the thing that makes everything else redundant. 

 

(Just an example of a successful and famous f2p game: In LoL there is a champion OP and has to be nerfed when he is the best pick and counters everything else or as good as everything in his favored lane.)

 

Now let's get back to warframe...does wukong make Frost, Mirage, Nekros, even Valkyr, Trinity, Excalibur, Chroma, Saryn or Nyx redundant? Not in the slightest...he has a god mode, i played him, i couldn't die, yes. Does he have cc? No, not in the slightest. He doesn't even have a team buff or anything to nuke enemies, sure his ult deals damage but excal and valkyr deal more and his damage also falls off soon.

 

Edit: Rage/Quick thinking got nerfed because that WAS OP, it made other mods redundant because you were able to put free god mode into all frames and everyone who wanted to be good had to use it.

 

Long story short: Wukong is FAR AWAY from being OP.

 

Also,

 

Exactly another reason why defy should be changed. If his skill instead of making him OP immortal dude threw out clones that went nuts and drew aggro all over like was suggested earlier in the thread- it'd help who? Oh that's right, his TEAM. It needs a nerf- period. NOBODY SHOULD BE IMMORTAL. IT TAKES ALL THE CHALLENGE AND FUN AWAY. THAT'S THE POINT OF A GAME M8.

 

Stop being salty and screaming like a kid who got not the thing he wanted for christmas, it's just disgusting. Especially screaming when not even played the frame...this is just pure toxin right on the forums.

The cool nerf mentality. Yeah. Wukong OP. Sure. Go carry me in a def with wukong pls, i can't do long enough with other frames

Edited November 29, 2015 by IceColdHawk

[SlyBoots]

see, Warframes that are Health based - are almost all completely missing and goddamn capability to self Heal.

and this is mandatory. let rephrase that. MANDATORY. a Warframe which relies on it's Health to do work must have a way to self Heal.

no, 'bring this or that' is not an answer.

 

this. seems to make too much sense though to be considered. :D

Edited November 29, 2015 by SlyBoots

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

Seriously people need to stop trying to nerf frames that they don't like this is a serious problem with some of the community especially with people who get butthurt over another player enjoying a frame while getting the most kills and doesn't die as much.

[achromos]

Since you're about the 10th person that comes in here comparing to valkyr and thinks I'm just picking on wukong and don't care about anything else, just because he's everyone's shiny new toy and I like ruining peoples fun...

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/563379-improving-valkyr-hysteria-is-not-the-only-problem/#entry6369116

 

Go read this right now...

 

You are ruining other peoples fun.  Valkyr's invincibility NEEDS to be brought down to Defy's levels but it dose need to exist or Valk needs a whole new ability kit.  Defy is balanced.  Good as is, needs no change.  That's my opinion on this.  There is a challenge with utilizing Defy as it is right now, as compared to valkyr who can AFK in hysteria for minutes at a time and not even blink at the butcher, or heavy gunner.

 

Secondly, there is a reason I'm the 12th person and you are going to get MORE people saying this.  Because YOUR view of balance is not a universal one.

 

You say Rage + Defy is more overpowered then the old combo?  Do you still believe that after all these posts explaining the truth why it isn't?  I'll give a bullet point just incase.

-When you proc the invincibility: You gain no energy.

-You only gain energy when you have health to lose, and you will get less and less health each time the proc goes off so in turn less energy.

-You NEED to drop the pseudo immortality and become vulnerable and recast it which can lead to death if you don't plan where and when you do.

 

So again, you need to realize people are bringing up VALKYR BECAUSE SHE IS FULL TIME IMMUNE WITH NO DOWNSIDES AND YOU ARE PICKING ON A FRAME THAT JUST CAME OUT AND HAS WEAKNESSES TO HIS IMMORTALITY.  I don't see your logic as it's not nearly as overpowered.

 

Loki's invisibility, Nyx's full room CC where you can sit back and just watch netflix if you don't try to hug them, Mesa's SHATTER SHIELD giving you such high damage reduction that you might as well be immortal if you build it right.  CHROMA built him like a tank and you will have 25k+ Effective HP.  Excaliber that can CC a whole room and has a energy sword that can pierce walls.

 

Other frames are untouchable without immortality and the ones that are left, have downsides.

 

Valkyr has no ranged option outside of lol ripline

Defy has a HUGE drain that needs extensive management in the heat of battle and you DON'T want it on too early or you WILL drain your energypool

 

Valkyr and Wukong can both get pwnd by a touch by a disruptor or dragged into a nullifire bubble or end up in one.

 

This isn't Trinity giving your whole team immortality to the point where you can sit back and watch netflix.

This isn't rhino back when his iron skin made you immortal

This isn't frosts old snowglobe that couldn't be destroyed.

 

 

Do you see my point?  Probably not, but don't get mad when people disagree adamantly with you about something because that's what happens when you take a unpopular opinion to the forums.

Edited November 29, 2015 by achromos

[XxCurtennoxX]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/563379-improving-valkyr-hysteria-is-not-the-only-problem/#entry6369116

 

Does this answer your question? Just because someone says something is too powerful- insinuating they say it like some sort of idiot who thinks other things are not is straight up rude. You're like the 12th person today or something that has said this, and it's officially starting to piss me off.

 

Can everyone just knock it off with the "you think this is OP- what about Valkyr?" stuff already?? THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT VALKYR. PLEASE STOP ASSUMING ANYONE WHO HAS AN OPINION THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM YOURS IS SOME KIND OF IDIOT.

Could you stop posting a link to your own thread just so that more people look at it?

 

Your time could be better spent elsewhere before you get Wukong and actually play him.

Until you get Wukong, everything you say about him is irrelevant. If you haven't played him, then don't go crying nerfs about him.

[Stratego89]

Could you stop posting a link to your own thread just so that more people look at it?

I'm posting it to try to make a point- not to get views. But apparently people aren't getting the point- otherwise that last comment you just responded to wouldn't have happened, or the 5 similar ones before it...

[(PSN)Xurokhan]

No- Wukong's defy should... NOT EVEN EXIST. It is WAAAAAAAY too OP. I'm just waiting for the nerf... Like- legit. This is literally why rage/quick thinking was nerfed. It's literally the old combo before the nerf, and is OP for the same reason the combo WAS nerfed.

Doesn't defy decrease his maximum energy with every use, along other another penalty.

I would only consider it OP if the ability essentially withering away to useless after so many uses wasn't a factor.

[Stratego89]

Doesn't defy decrease his maximum energy with every use, along other another penalty.

I would only consider it OP if the ability essentially withering away to useless after so many uses wasn't a factor.

Oh yes. It does... unless you turn it off and let it recharge. That being said- it DOESN'T MATTER. Why doesn't it matter? Because even so- you can die 17 WHOLE TIMES before you are actually vulnerable to actual death... That is OP, no matter how I look at it- and this is WITHOUT FLOW MODS.

[achromos]

I'm posting it to try to make a point- not to get views. But apparently people aren't getting the point- otherwise that last comment you just responded to wouldn't have happened, or the 5 similar ones before it...

 

Stratego89, you aren't getting it.  You see a problem... where there is no problem.  You are making a mountain out of a mole-hill, and you are trying to rain on someone elses parade just because of what you see on paper.  Yet you don't see the little bit of micro-management defy needs to get off those "17" revives.  Secondly...  I've forma'd mine 3 times and in order to be effective with my other skills like Primal Fury [which IS a good melee ult if you build even half for it] I can get maybe 7 times out of it before I bottum out on energy but the lower you get on health the higher risk you are taking and the less Rage will be able to restore. 

 

That "Mythical" 17 revives you are talking about? ( That number really seems fabricated but whatever) Yea, good luck utilizing anything else and being more then someone running around with his weapons.  Good luck contributing to the team in any meaningful way other then being a Male Valkyr Res-Bot.

Edited November 29, 2015 by achromos

[Rhelic]

So would you say that disabling rage while defy is active would make it more balanced?

[(PSN)Xurokhan]

Oh yes. It does... unless you turn it off and let it recharge. That being said- it DOESN'T MATTER. Why doesn't it matter? Because even so- you can die 17 WHOLE TIMES before you are actually vulnerable to actual death... That is OP, no matter how I look at it- and this is WITHOUT FLOW MODS.

So he's ideal for for survivability in "end game" content and he can cheese through everything else just like every other frame.

[Stratego89]

Stratego89, you aren't getting it.  You see a problem... where there is no problem.  You are making a mountain out of a mole-hill, and you are trying to rain on someone elses parade just because of what you see on paper.  Yet you don't see the little bit of micro-management defy needs to get off those 17 revives.  Secondly...  I've forma'd mine 3 times and in order to be effective with my other skills like Primal Fury [which IS a good melee ult if you build even half for it] I can get maybe 7 times out of it before I bottum out on energy but the lower you get on health the higher risk you are taking and the less Rage will be able to restore. 

Here's the micromanagement you need- from what I've been told. Step 1: use literally no other ability, and just use your guns to kill things. Step 2: you can die 17 times before you actually die. How does that require micromanagement.

 

Even if his other skills really do heavily impact this skill, you can just choose to not use them. I mean- why bother cloud walking when you can't die anyways. Why use your staff thrust (1) when you can just ground slam or kick a group of enemies (yes, I know it does high damage- but if you're going for that you could shoot a gun). I understand using his 4, as it's actually very unique in it's mechanics, and very powerful to boot- but is the energy drain on his 4 really THAT nuts? If it is, maybe that needs a buff too? I don't hear anyone calling for that too, so I can't imagine it is.

 

I get that eventually your health and energy drain down. But who in their right mind is going to keep it on literally all the time, instead of using it when stuff gets rough for a bit? It regens your max energy when it's off does it not? If someone is going to have to keep it on to stay alive to the point where it totally drains you- I can only imagine two scenarios. Scenario 1: the game has gotten WAY too crazy and you should probably be rushing to extraction anyways. Scenario 2: The player has THAT hard a time in the game for some reason- in which case no wonder they'd be so adamant about it not getting nerfed, since noone seems to care to improve how they play rather than just rely on the most OP ability they can get their hand on at the time.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Stratego89

[IceColdHawk]

Scenario 2: The player has THAT hard a time in the game for some reason- in which case no wonder they'd be so adamant about it not getting nerfed, since noone seems to care to improve how they play rather than just rely on the most OP ability they can get their hand on at the time.

When one has a "hard time" in warframe and is meaning that he or she HAS to use wukong to succeed, he or she is doing something terribly wrong.

Edited November 29, 2015 by IceColdHawk

[sappinmahsentry]

see, Warframes that are Health based - are almost all completely missing and goddamn capability to self Heal.

and this is mandatory. let rephrase that. MANDATORY. a Warframe which relies on it's Health to do work must have a way to self Heal.

no, 'bring this or that' is not an answer. it's possible to play a Mission without having it, therefore it's an addition, not a baseline.

 

 

for Atlas in particular, solving this problem is so, so, so simple.

third punch on Landslide (uppercut with Ragdoll), 2% Life Steal. only counts your direct target, not the Enemies caught in AoE.

boom, suddenly a Health based Warframe is able to self Heal to some degree, that scales with the Player's Mods and still requires them to be actively using their Warframe to receive the benefit.

 

- - - - - 

 

other Health based Warframes (or Warframes which do not focus towards Shields) can follow suit:

Excalibur gets 1% Life Steal on Finishers you perform on Enemies affected by Radial Blind. alternatively 5% maximum Health if you hit any Enemy affected by Radial Blind with Slash Dash. (boolean, not a counter)

 

Chroma gets 2.5% of maximum Health per second that Spectral Scream is active, and 5% of maximum Health for every Enemy that Effigy Kills.

 

Saryn... Regenerative Molt probably might as well become default functionality. protect your Decoy to use it as a Spores totem, regenerate Health, as well as distract Enemies.

however Saryn getting 1% of maximum Health on the cast of Miasma for every Enemy that is affected by either Toxin or Viral Status, getting 2% maximum Health whenever Spores originally transfers Toxin DoT from Toxic Lash (meaning the first time Spores spreads your stacked Toxin Status, not every time it spreads), getting 2.5% maximum Health for every Enemy Killed by Molt - are all acceptable. i'd choose atleast two of those.

 

Ash gets either 5% maximum Health or 2.5-3% Life Steal for Enemies that you perform a Finisher from Teleport on that have Slash Status from Shuriken active.

 

Mesa gets 5% maximum Health for each Enemy Killed by your shot from Ballistic Battery (if in the future Ballistic Battery gets default Punch-Through, AoE or anything of the like, 5% maximum Health if you Kill any Enemy with the shot from Ballistic Battery(boolean, not a counter)).

 

Banshee gets either 0.5% Life Steal (since it's going to be Gun Damage generally) or 4% maximum Health for Killing an Enemy by hitting a Sonar dot on an Enemy that has been knocked down by Sonic Boom.

 

Nekros gets 3% maximum Health for hitting an Enemy with Soul Punch that is affected by Terrify.

 

 

Et Cetera. you get the idea!

Oh hell, I would love this more than sweet potato pie!

 

Especially that life strike on atlas! o3o DE please give us this.

[achromos]

Here's the micromanagement you need- from what I've been told. Step 1: use literally no other ability, and just use your guns to kill things. Step 2: you can die 17 times before you actually die. How does that require micromanagement.

 

Even if his other skills really do heavily impact this skill, you can just choose to not use them. I mean- why bother cloud walking when you can't die anyways. Why use your staff thrust (1) when you can just ground slam or kick a group of enemies (yes, I know it does high damage- but if you're going for that you could shoot a gun). I understand using his 4, as it's actually very unique in it's mechanics, and very powerful to boot- but is the energy drain on his 4 really THAT nuts? If it is, maybe that needs a buff too? I don't hear anyone calling for that too, so I can't imagine it is.

 

I get that eventually your health and energy drain down. But who in their right mind is going to keep it on literally all the time, instead of using it when stuff gets rough for a bit? It regens your max energy when it's off does it not? If someone is going to have to keep it on to stay alive to the point where it totally drains you- I can only imagine two scenarios. Scenario 1: the game has gotten WAY too crazy and you should probably be rushing to extraction anyways. Scenario 2: The player has THAT hard a time in the game for some reason- in which case no wonder they'd be so adamant about it not getting nerfed, since noone seems to care to improve how they play rather than just rely on the most OP ability they can get their hand on at the time.

 

 

I just don't see how this ability is overpowered, as I've used it.  Stratego, I really want you to go and play him yourself and then come back to this thread.  You'll laugh at your own posts.  Again, speccing JUST for Defy's sake is rather stupid in a team setting and as I said I highly doubt that outside of the simulacrum you will get "17" as by that point you will be getting the few seconds of true invulnerability and 2 health back and your energy will litterally go up in smoke.

 

Yes people can reset it, but that's the point!  The point is that you have to manage it, how far are you willing to go, how much health do you think is low enough, how much risk are you willing to take?  Will you reset it when it's high?  or half health?  I've noticed that the lower you go, as I said before you get less and less energy back from rage because you effectively have less health.

 

Other abilities you might be interested in.

Nyx: She can make the whole enemy unit attack itself and ignore the team.

Mirage:  Her stun can hit EVERY ENEMY and lock them down for several seconds and making them helpless.

Excaliber:  He can stun everyone within line of sight, make them take more damage, while swinging a sword wildly and melting them from a safty.

Ember: Can afk in her ult and deal more damage then her team actually trying to play the game

Ash:  He can use bladestorm and be invincible while doing that AND kill whole rooms of enemies if not through damage but the absurd bleed procs

Nova: Can slow down enemies to the point that they might as well be loot pinyata's

Equinox: Can store all the damage her team does and unleash it to kill ANYTHING in her way

Frost:  Can slow down enemies just as much as Nova, can create a endless supply of bubbles for his team if he is built right that just don't go down.

Mesa:  Shatter shield can make her almost invincible

Trinity: Can throw a toxic glave into the ground and slap blessing on everyone for 99% damage reduction, your WHOLE team wont die.

Valkyr: The most she has to worry about is nullifiers and leeches taking all her energy.

Vauban: Can net up every enemy in the room, place down a wormhole that basically turns the game into shooting fish in a barrel

Loki: As long as he stays out of the way and shoots from a range and/or has spatial awareness he WONT die.  he CAN [like wukong] but he wont if he is smart.

 

Yet you cry about Overpowered on something like this?

 

Just admit you hate the frame and get it overwith lol.

 

Being honest... if someone has a hard time in warframe like that they should do what I did when I started.  Move to a squishy frame and

[Swailwort]

Noooooo. It should belong to Ember, the so called "Phoenix" frame...

[achromos]

I would love to know how you managed to twist one simply reply to someone in regards to something into that in your head.

 

1.) You seen one video displaying a very idealistic setting and fabricated a total number (pics/vide or didn't happen btw) and act like that's that.

2.) You believe you know more then people who've actually spent more the time playing as him since his release and have forma'd him multiple times and this somehow makes you better all around if not just better informed.

3.) You don't see the OTHER warframes with their strengths and yet you want to pick on this frame because of what you see on paper and in a youtube video

 

Need I go on?

Edited November 29, 2015 by achromos

[Enno69]

Stratego, seriously... Once you get Wukong, if you do, are you going to just focus on Defy and completely ignore his other abilities ? If you do that and you find it OP (and I doubt even in this case it will be, as others explained), then it will be kinda your fault for breaking the frame. Mirage has one of the best CC in the game if you mod solely for it, yet on mine Prism is gimped because I chose to spec her for DPS instead, which is a lot more balanced and fun.

Summed up : you don't like Defy, don't use it.

[-Kryptyk-]

Ok, but I expect Valkyr to be nerfed as well, seeing that her immortality is WAAAAAAAAY too OP. Hysteria literally gives invincibility, which is better than the rage/quick thinking combo since immunity to damage is OP

You know they balanced out her hysteria right? Sure, it may give immunity, but there's a damage counter at the top right of the screen that tells how much damage you take while in hysteria. If you release hysteria in a mob of enemies, or even one high level enemy, that counter tells how much damage you'll take for a certain duration of time if you get hit from enemies within 10m (or there's some crazy scaling equation that I'm not even gonna try reciting). You may be invulnerable for a while, but if you're not careful, it's an instant death when you come out of hysteria.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Firefly0037

[IceColdHawk]

Very few warframes need nerfs, most need buffs.

^

This exactly.

[(PSN)supersocc11]

TC here...WOW! didn't know this would be such an interesting discussion...

 

My point in creating this thread was not to bring up any nerfs whatsoever.  I just know that once i hit 40 min in solo T4 survival with Atlas i have a harder time staying alive than some of the frames because he lacks the abilities that make surviving tough enemies more manageable (Hysteria, Radial Blind/Exalted Blade, Defy, Anything Trinity, etc). 

 

I just think that instead of tectonics, some kind damage mitigation skill would've done absolute wonders for him.  As i said in the OP, when you enter a room, you can pop some rumblers and then petrify the room, run in a punch everything, but then you're caught in a barrage of fire from enemies entering the room.  Yes, Landslide makes you invincible during the animation but your enemies are often times outside of punching range.

 

Maybe Petrify should be a cone blast (more akin to Radial Blind) that instantly petrifies enemies.  I am rambling now...but just wanted to clear the air that i dont think anyone should be nerfed...ONLY BUFFS!

[lookindown]

Hope after all this toxin in 1 thread DE would atleast have remembered there is a frame they made called wukong that needs some of their attention...Just fix the bugs with his 4 not hitting enemies sometimes, the extreme difficulty to produce combos at will, and how the staff looks. And we Gucci.

Edited November 29, 2015 by lookindown

[taiiat]

I would hate this. because i don't know how the game works and thinks this would make Healing Abilities pointless.

*sigh*

fine, i'll spoonfeed you.

 

1 - Health based Warframes already bring Healing Augments on their Guns and/or Life Strike because it's mandatory to have for a Health based Warframe. so by your naive logic, all Healing Abilities are pointless.

2 - Players shouldn't be required to have another Player or bring specific Equipment in order for their Warframe to work. without Healing, a Health based Warframe is not useful. even Chroma needs Healing with him to survive to the end of a reasonably Level Mission.

 

so then, for Atlas, 2% of your third Punch(~30,000 w/o Crit) is ~600 Health.

this is with a pretty specced out Melee Weapon, and quite a bit of Power Strength.

not to mention with the nuts Damage that Landslide does do, most of the time it's actually fairly difficult to get that third punch off, because almost everything is dead on the second punch.

 

Ash would get ~56 Health from 5% maximum Health, and ~450 Health from 2.5% Life Steal. i'd probably go with 2% instead, since that's a bit higher than expected. 2% Life Steal would be ~360 Health.

only can be performed on an Enemy that you casted Shuriken on, and used Teleport on it and then perform the Finisher.

 

Banshee getting 4% maximum Health for Killing an Enemy that is knocked down by Sonic Boom and affected by Sonar, is ~30 Health.

0.5% Life Steal unfortunately is still too high, so no point in bothering with that, can't be balanced.

[TangyBlueBerry]

Something people keep missing is how in Chinese lore, Wukong is immortal. He erased his name from the book of life and death. That and he was a natural trickster, his Defy ability makes perfect sense in how it plays into his lore. Straight up immortality may not be the way to go, but Wukong Tricking death sure is acceptable.

As for other Wukong powers we have to remember he has many. He can transform himself near perfect with the exception of his tail, make clones if himself from his hair, speak to animals, he has been know to cast spells than can control wind and create unparalleled barriers, etc.