Please Remove First Attack Before Charged...

[Sannidor]

...or make it optional.

 

I like charge animations very much, I was happy for it since the day I heard Geof confirming this feature to return :)

 

Having charge into another charge feels great, interrupting combos with heavies gives more depth to melee.

 

 

However, doing normal swing before first charge feels counter-intuitive.

 

The big part of charging game is to hurt enemy with the first strike (or even a group, now reserved for slide attack only. as slams are too weak ).

 

Sure, it's still possible now, if I miss with first swing on purpose, but honestly - this is not much fun.

 

Removing this burden from throwing weapons and Redeemer is a necessity, it used to work just fine and one day it was changed to current state which I assumed was a bug...

 

DE, please make charge attacks available also from quick melee. Mios is a great example of melee weapon done right, elevating all melee to this level of awesome would make many players happy and more willing to test new weapons if they hesitate to do so now.

 

Melee is certainly heading in right direction, don't hesitate to make good decisions!  :)

[Rambit23Z]

...or make it optional.

 

I like charge animations very much, I was happy for it since the day I heard Geof confirming this feature to return :)

 

Having charge into another charge feels great, interrupting combos with heavies gives more depth to melee.

 

 

However, doing normal swing before first charge feels counter-intuitive.

 

The big part of charging game is to hurt enemy with the first strike (or even a group, now reserved for slide attack only. as slams are too weak ).

 

Sure, it's still possible now, if I miss with first swing on purpose, but honestly - this is not much fun.

 

Removing this burden from throwing weapons and Redeemer is a necessity, it used to work just fine and one day it was changed to current state which I assumed was a bug...

 

DE, please make charge attacks available also from quick melee. Mios is a great example of melee weapon done right, elevating all melee to this level of awesome would make many players happy and more willing to test new weapons if they hesitate to do so now.

 

Melee is certainly heading in right direction, don't hesitate to make good decisions!  :)

 

Allthough they broke the Mios by making the whip-pull charge way too long.

[AM-Bunny]

I doubt this is possible from a programming perspective.

 

The way that it used to work, every time you pressed melee, the game would *expect* you to perform a Charge Attack, and only once you let go immediately would it determine that you weren't. Therefore, you would perform the Quick Attack on release of the button rather than upon pressing. They overall thought this delayed response made melee combat clunky.

 

When Melee 2.0 was introduced, and there were many fine button press timings, it simply wasn't possible to maintain this system and also deliver a responsive melee system. With the new system, as soon as you press melee, you perform the Quick Attack, and only after you hold it does the game discover that you want to Charge Attack. 

 

Now Stances and Combos are so deeply ingrained, I don't think it will change back any time soon. For the record, I'm in agreement with you, and I hate the Quick Melee before Charging, but I'm just providing some perspective on why it might not be as easy to change as you think.

[Insizer]

No, they need to get rid of this new charging for thrown/shot melees all together because they already had to charge up. There is literally no reason to require it to take two or three times as long as before, just to do the exact same thing, especially when you can't throw/shoot it when it is partially charged.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Insizer

[smokednin]

I agree 1,000%. Not being able to do a charge attack on the first attack kinda defeats the purpose of having one strong, charged attack...

 

Also the fact that we need the weapon to be equipped just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Quite honestly, I'm fairly disappointed with the reintroduction of charge attacks just because of these two small things (that make a pretty big difference to me)..

[Ceryk]

Allthough they broke the Mios by making the whip-pull charge way too long.

Feels like they also removed the big ranged attack from it an only made it pull as well... and honestly, 60-70% of the time I try and do it, it misses and doesn't even hit the enemy even though I'm like 5m away and aiming directly at the center of their torso.

 

No, they need to get rid of this new charging for thrown/shot melees all together because they already had to charge up. There is literally no reason to require it to take two or three times as long as before, just to do the exact same thing, especially when you can't throw/shoot it when it is partially charged.

I agree. These weapons have specialized attacks associated with that. It's not a normal weapon you are simply hitting harder with. It's a unique attack that normal weapons are incapable of and deserve to be executed in a faster manner than a normal charge attack.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Ceryk

[Sannidor]

I doubt this is possible from a programming perspective.

 

I see no reasons why it would be impossible. DE created this game and proved many times with great reworks that everything can be improved.

 

They often break functioning things, but melee is very close to being good and charge attacks are a good omen of great things to come.

[AM-Bunny]

I see no reasons why it would be impossible. DE created this game and proved many times with great reworks that everything can be improved.

 

They often break functioning things, but melee is very close to being good and charge attacks are a good omen of great things to come.

 

Okay, maybe not impossible, but it would be a tremendous amount of work since combos and stances are deeply ingrained into the game. I highly doubt they would devote that much effort into tearing apart a system they've spent the last year and half or so developing.

[Cerebrum123]

I doubt this is possible from a programming perspective.

 

The way that it used to work, every time you pressed melee, the game would *expect* you to perform a Charge Attack, and only once you let go immediately would it determine that you weren't. Therefore, you would perform the Quick Attack on release of the button rather than upon pressing. They overall thought this delayed response made melee combat clunky.

 

When Melee 2.0 was introduced, and there were many fine button press timings, it simply wasn't possible to maintain this system and also deliver a responsive melee system. With the new system, as soon as you press melee, you perform the Quick Attack, and only after you hold it does the game discover that you want to Charge Attack. 

 

Now Stances and Combos are so deeply ingrained, I don't think it will change back any time soon. For the record, I'm in agreement with you, and I hate the Quick Melee before Charging, but I'm just providing some perspective on why it might not be as easy to change as you think.

Hmm, they were able to have this before Melee 2.0, and it worked fine. So why not now? Alternative option, give Melee Equip charge attacks bound to alternate fire, that way the whole system isn't based on one button and it's inputs. 

[Ve1indian]

Finally someone else noticed X_X

There's also an issue this causes with E > Hold E combos. Which overrides the charge animation with the combo follow-up.

[Catharsis25]

Allthough they broke the Mios by making the whip-pull charge way too long.

 

Not just that, but the first charge attack doesn't throw out the whip. You need to do the second charge attack, the one from the other side, to do that.

[Casval_Rouge]

To be honest I don't even know why charge attack is brought back.  It was a broken system before, that's why we needed 2.0.  I don't see how bring them back improves anything.  With how wonky the hitboxes are, I'll always have a better chance of doing more damage simply by spaming either quick melee or combos.  Why bother charging for like 2 secs just for an underwhelming attack?

 

But on topic about how charge works.  Unfortunately it is not possible currently to not have the first normal attack.  What they can do to make it better with what we have, is that those first attack will always stagger just so you can charge in front of them and enemies won't hit back.  Now it seems silly, but I don't see another way.

[Sannidor]

Okay, maybe not impossible, but it would be a tremendous amount of work since combos and stances are deeply ingrained into the game. I highly doubt they would devote that much effort into tearing apart a system they've spent the last year and half or so developing.

 

 

But on topic about how charge works.  Unfortunately it is not possible currently to not have the first normal attack. 

 

Why do you guys have so much belief in your vision of how hard it would be to change? This is pure, unjustified pessimism.

 

Are you game developers? Do you see game's code structure?

 

If Mios exist, every weapon can get at least this kind of treatment. Charge attacks can be bound to secondary fire button etc.

 

If DE made it they can improve it!

[Ve1indian]

Still an issue

[shut]

I get that this is a programming issue that's hard to solve, but really, at this point in time, it still baffles me that this is an issue.

 

 

What I think should happen:

 

- All first swings of all combos should have "free movement" enabled. That is, being able to walk, run, sprint, crouch, etc. freely while attacking. For example, Longswords currently have free movement during the first swing, while Hammers do not.

 

- Charge attacks should detect whether the button is being held down after a set amount of time (say, 0.2 seconds), not after the first swing has ended. Hammers in particular are in a nasty spot right now because of how disgustingly long it takes for the game to detect a charge attack.

 

 

Simple as that.

While it won't be quite as responsive as Melee 1.0 charge attacks due to the ~0.2s detection delay, it should be leagues more responsive and reliable than the hunk of crap that we have right now.

Edited January 23, 2016 by SortaRandom

[-N7-Leonhart]

- Charge attacks should detect whether the button is being held down after a set amount of time (say, 0.2 seconds), not after the first swing has ended. Hammers in particular are in a nasty spot right now because of how disgustingly long it takes for the game to detect a charge attack.

 

 

Simple as that.

While it won't be quite as responsive as Melee 1.0 charge attacks due to the ~0.2s detection delay, it should be leagues more responsive and reliable than the hunk of crap that we have right now.

 

That is not simple at all. That is literally how it used to work and one of the reasons they removed the charge attacks. I don't think you imagine what 0.2s means. For example, what does it mean when I attack 10 times per second using Swirling Tiger? Hell even 0.05s delay would make the melee attacks twice as unresponsive as before.

Edited January 23, 2016 by -BM-StormVanguard

[shut]

That is literally how it used to work and one of the reasons they removed the charge attacks.

 

It isn't.

 

The old system is pretty much exactly as AM-Bunny said above. When you pressed the melee button, your character instantly began to prepare a charge attack; it was only upon releasing the key that your character did a regular swing.

Mechanics-wise, it was nearly perfect. Far from being one of the reasons charge attacks were removed, it's actually one of the reasons we all wanted them to return. They were removed for different reasons entirely.

 

Due to programming issues, it looks like the devs aren't able to make such a system work with the current melee mechanics.

So, what I suggested was a workaround-- basically, keep the mechanics as they are right now, but allow a charge attack to be detected after ~0.2 seconds instead of having to wait for the entire first swing to be completed (which can take anywhere from ~0.5 to ~1.5 full seconds, depending on your weapon's swing speed). I also suggested that your movement during the first swing be unrestricted, so you can begin a charge attack without being rooted into place for a split second. (Weapons like the Redeemer already accomplish this, while weapons like Hammers do not.)

 

Is it going to be responsive as the old system? Of course not. The old system had a delay of 0.000 seconds; the system that I'm suggesting would (by definition) be unable to match that.

However, we can still emulate it by tweaking the charge time if need be. I mean, if it takes 0.2 seconds to detect a charge attack, then shave 0.2 seconds off the actual charge time to make up for it. Stuff like that.

 

 

 

By the way, if 0.2 seconds is too long, then of course that can be changed. I literally pulled a random number out of nowhere and tossed it onto the post; it's obviously not perfect and it's obviously not set in stone.

However, you are severely overestimating how long of a time 0.05 seconds is. You do realize that most players would have to make a conscious effort to not hold the button for that long on every attack they make, right?

Edited January 25, 2016 by SortaRandom

[Thrymm]

It is more than possible to have charge attacks without an initial swing in 2.0.  To suggest otherwise is utter bollocks.  Frankly I'm surprised they bothered to even implement with what they wound up with here.  Honestly, I believe they did it for gameplay reasons(to avoid the Galatine charge of old, though these days even that wouldn't seem overpowered compared to other powercreep) far more than any coding difficulty.

 

The Glaive, Halikar, etc, ALREADY HAD ONE.  That is, in 2.0, without a pre-swing, they had an actual functioning charge attack.  The code to make it work already existed.  Actual implementation is as simple as putting the charge animation(which still exists as an asset from 1.0) that corresponds to the proper weapon on the end of that code, tying in the proper "charge speed"(animation delay), and calling it a day.

[-N7-Leonhart]

It is more than possible to have charge attacks without an initial swing in 2.0.  To suggest otherwise is utter bollocks.  Frankly I'm surprised they bothered to even implement with what they wound up with here.  Honestly, I believe they did it for gameplay reasons(to avoid the Galatine charge of old, though these days even that wouldn't seem overpowered compared to other powercreep) far more than any coding difficulty.

 

The Glaive, Halikar, etc, ALREADY HAD ONE.  That is, in 2.0, without a pre-swing, they had an actual functioning charge attack.  The code to make it work already existed.  Actual implementation is as simple as putting the charge animation(which still exists as an asset from 1.0) that corresponds to the proper weapon on the end of that code, tying in the proper "charge speed"(animation delay), and calling it a day.

 

They can't remove the delay with acceptable results. They literally said so once again in the last devstream. I would say the devs know a bit better about how their system works.

Edited January 24, 2016 by -BM-StormVanguard

[(PSN)yo-am-loco]

bumperonni

[Sannidor]

They can't remove the delay with acceptable results. They literally said so once again in the last devstream. I would say the devs know a bit better about how their system works.

 

It was impossible to fix coptering for months, right? But with a massive rework we got much more useful and fair system.

 

If DE made it, they can make it better. No excuses justify removal of already fully working mechanics and replacing them with what we have now.

[-N7-Leonhart]

It was impossible to fix coptering for months, right? But with a massive rework we got much more useful and fair system.

 

If DE made it, they can make it better. No excuses justify removal of already fully working mechanics and replacing them with what we have now.

 

Who said it was impossible to fix coptering? I bet it was actually very easy, but they lacked a viable alternative to it.