Shield Gates For Players

[EmptyDevil]

Updated OP by adding example with segmented shields.

[EinheriarJudith]

On 2/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, mishli said:

i mean... they gotta keep scaling somehow, how do you suggest an alternative? shouldn't they do more damage as they level up?

 just change how much of each group can spawn at the varying times on the map while removing enemy lvl (enemies dont use mods as far as i can tell which is interesting because if they did DE could easily control the kind of damage and defenses they have (since we as tenno use the same weapons).

enemies having lvls was always something i though didnt make sense with how they have different enemy units showing up at different times(at the start only light, midway through light and medium, farther along light medium and heavy and then varying numbers of each group). medium and heavy units already have mechanics that make them challenging to fight with their own specific weakness and strengths and imo that is the path DE should take when addressing it. longevity should not be based on if you can avoid being one shot but if you can out last the numbers taking into consideration the different mechanics.

now if there is anyone wandering about how xp would be effected by not having enemy lvls let me provide a suggestion. the groups we have now are light, medium, and heavy, they can add a commander group that consists of enemies ex: the sisters, raptor, lect krill, phorid etc it doesnt have to be these particular NPCs but could be of boss standing like them and just divide the xp as follows. Light - low exp, medium - increased xp, heavy - increased xp, commander large xp boost and bonus (eximus of any class except the commander will give bonus xp in addition to what that class yields)

Edited February 26, 2016 by EinheriarJudith
heavy edit thought i saw something about XP but ill leave something at the end about how they can change xp with enemeis as well

[tnccs215]

6 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

 just change how much of each group can spawn at the varying times on the map while removing enemy lvl (enemies dont use mods as far as i can tell which is interesting because if they did DE could easily control the kind of damage and defenses they have (since we as tenno use the same weapons).

enemies having lvls was always something i though didnt make sense with how they have different enemy units showing up at different times(at the start only light, midway through light and medium, farther along light medium and heavy and then varying numbers of each group). medium and heavy units already have mechanics that make them challenging to fight with their own specific weakness and strengths and imo that is the path DE should take when addressing it. longevity should not be based on if you can avoid being one shot but if you can out last the numbers taking into consideration the different mechanics.

now if there is anyone wandering about how xp would be effected by not having enemy lvls let me provide a suggestion. the groups we have now are light, medium, and heavy, they can add a commander group that consists of enemies ex: the sisters, raptor, lect krill, phorid etc it doesnt have to be these particular NPCs but could be of boss standing like them and just divide the xp as follows. Light - low exp, medium - increased xp, heavy - increased xp, commander large xp boost and bonus (eximus of any class except the commander will give bonus xp in addition to what that class yields)

the problem with your hypothesis is that it prevents infinite scaling. The way enemies scale is broken at the moment, no doubt. However it allows a mission to go on forever, at increasing risk (getting one shot is not a risk when you can't prevent or predict it without using cheese mechanics, like perma CC), which, in the end, is the point of endless missions.

the devs can only control the game until a certain point. Players will always manage to push forward and forward, and there is a point in which you simply must leave it to an algorithm.

However, while it has to get eternally harder (otherwise it would get boring), it also has to be doable. That's why I support this mechanic. Getting one shot is as engaging as the game suddenly ending in the moment you reach a point the devs think you shouldn't reach. And, as it is now, it's only possible to survive through the use of cheese tactics--tactics that make enemy level irrelevant (and that is as good as not having scaling at all, no difficulty increase, which, as I said before, is a killer). With this, you still have a chance to fight.

I do enjoy the idea of putting bosses as "normal" rare spawns. Specially the sisters, that are quite unique.

[tnccs215]

On ‎11‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 6:54 AM, mishli said:

 

 

5: the big issue i see with your suggestion is that, if you don't want to be 1shot, take more defensive mods. that's the whole point of them. people don't like  doing that, but it is the truth. While i think your idea has merit. i don't know if it's fair if glass cannons should have more leeway, since they're glass cannons for a reason

defensive mods don't scale. Enemy damage does. It reaches a point (and its not that late) that, no matter the amount of defensive mods you have, you WILL get one shotted. The only way to prevent it ends up being cheap tactics. And when you are LOCKED into a meta in order to progress, it gets boring.

that's why I hate nullifiers so much. It's not their bubble. It's the fact that they are snipers, snipers protected by a bloody impervious to my abilities. Should snipers in this game have a laser trail to allow you to track their aiming, and their bullets have travel time, this would be much, MUCH more tolerable. But getting casually one shot and loose my hard earned 80% slow of my pacify aura, without any possibility of defending myself because their aim is impossibly good, is not engaging.

when enemies scale infinitely, you need someway to counteract, at least partially, that scaling. This mechanic allows that, because it ignores scaling. However it does not make you invincible. It just gives you a fighting chance.

Fortunetly, I believe a similar mechanic will be introduced in damage 3.0 . Steve tweeted that one shots will be over when it gets introduced.

[EinheriarJudith]

7 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

the problem with your hypothesis is that it prevents infinite scaling.

 Infinite scaling has always been a bad idea in any game that has it. scaling and mission duration are separate things in that one doesn't necessarily need the other.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Let me fix this for you. This mechanic is overwrought and unnecessary. Let me propose a simpler change:

Health cannot be damaged by a hit at full shields (status procs still apply). If a hit depletes 100% of your shields, you are immune to health damage and knockdown for .33 seconds.

There. Now bombards can't stealth-murder the whole squad from behind, around a corner, one floor up, behind cover.

Edit: and for the love of god, make toxic ancient viral procs eat a flat 50% remaining health. Getting one-shot from behind through your shields with no telegraph or audio cue is some cheap S#&$.

Edited February 26, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[EmptyDevil]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Let me fix this for you. This mechanic is overwrought and unnecessary. Let me propose a simpler change:

Health cannot be damaged by a hit at full shields (status procs still apply). If a hit depletes 100% of your shields, you are immune to health damage and knockdown for .33 seconds.

There. Now bombards can't stealth-murder the whole squad from behind, around a corner, one floor up, behind cover.

Edit: and for the love of god, make toxic ancient viral procs eat a flat 50% remaining health. Getting one-shot from behind through your shields with no telegraph or audio cue is some cheap S#&$.

You're not really fixing anything. What you said is part of the idea without anything to prevent abuse. If you read the entire OP, you'd see that this covers a lot and provides some examples for how things would work.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Oh, I read most of it. The "bullet jump invulnerability" argument is silly. If you are that alert and can get out of enemy fire until your shields regen in just .33 seconds, then dammit, you deserve to live. Besides, that only protects you as long as you're airborne, and not completely. You still can, and will, die if that enemy gets even one more shot in, no matter how fast you bullet jump. Your only option is to either leave the room and pray there aren't more lying in wait, or kill the enemy as quickly as possible after evading. You earned that survival. I don't see how this constitutes "abuse".

[EmptyDevil]

Just now, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Oh, I read most of it. The "bullet jump invulnerability" argument is silly. If you are that alert and can get out of enemy fire until your shields regen in just .33 seconds, then dammit, you deserve to live. Besides, that only protects you as long as you're airborne, and not completely. You still can, and will, die if that enemy gets even one more shot in, no matter how fast you bullet jump. Your only option is to either leave the room and pray there aren't more lying in wait, or kill the enemy as quickly as possible after evading. You earned that survival. I don't see how this constitutes "abuse".

"Bullet jumping invulnerability" isn't mentioned anywhere in the OP. I also did not say bullet jumping is abuse. You did not read it as you claimed.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

I was referring to the rest of the thread. I don't see the copious mitigation you covered as actual abuse, though. My proposition doesn't prevent heavies and techs from cutting you to pieces, but they have clear audio cues. Maybe make them slightly louder, or give them a slightly longer spool-up time, and that won't be a problem.

We disagree on what would "break" your idea. That's all.

[EmptyDevil]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I was referring to the rest of the thread. I don't see the copious mitigation you covered as actual abuse, though. My proposition doesn't prevent heavies and techs from cutting you to pieces, but they have clear audio cues. Maybe make them slightly louder, or give them a slightly longer spool-up time, and that won't be a problem.

We disagree on what would "break" your idea. That's all.

Even in the rest of the thread, i did not say anything about bullet jumping invulnerability. I did not say bullet jumping is a form of abuse. Not to sound rude but, you really should carefully read the OP before debating changes or providing feedback. I tell people this a lot because they can not provide valid feedback without knowing the details.

I disagree with your highly simplified approach of a shield gate. It has too many ways for it to be abused without a cooldown and it requires 100% shields. 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

@ EmptyDevil

New Mummy Frame with Zero Base Shields

(Not entirely sure if Over-shields can work on said Mummy Frame

Hi-jack missions will suck)*

But it is the same issue of Shield-gate not preventing 1-shot mechanics in No Shield NM (All NM Alerts)

Your Shield-gate has become well-balanced from when I first read your concept...just seems like DE has weird ways of not making Shields viable. (Yet recent tweet said Damage 3.0 would remove 1-shots....)

[EmptyDevil]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

@ EmptyDevil

New Mummy Frame with Zero Base Shields

(Not entirely sure if Over-shields can work on said Mummy Frame

Hi-jack missions will suck)*

But it is the same issue of Shield-gate not preventing 1-shot mechanics in No Shield NM (All NM Alerts)

Your Shield-gate has become well-balanced from when I first read your concept...just seems like DE has weird ways of not making Shields viable. (Yet recent tweet said Damage 3.0 would remove 1-shots....)

I'm very curious about the new frame's mechanics because of his lack of shields. I saw Scott say he will have 600 base health. We can't really say if there will be an issue or not with this frame until we see his entire kit.

Thanks. IIRC, Steve was referring to us no longer 1-shotting boss enemies but the EXP would be boosted. It would be awesome if they implement this too though.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

9 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

I'm very curious about the new frame's mechanics because of his lack of shields. I saw Scott say he will have 600 base health. We can't really say if there will be an issue or not with this frame until we see his entire kit.

Thanks. IIRC, Steve was referring to us no longer 1-shotting boss enemies but the EXP would be boosted. It would be awesome if they implement this too though.

Thanks for quick-reply and clarification.

(Although that does have me worried, if Highly modded weapons will not 1-shot low level Enemies, or if Melee Stealth Kills will be removed entirely as multiple (silent) hits aren't really Stealth ....But that is for another topic)

I also forgot that the Devs in stream mentioned that the new Mummy Frame may benefit greatly from goind down....aka a Candidate for Provoked and/or Undying Will.

Needless to say new Warframe's mechanics have piqued my curiosity.

[EmptyDevil]

After trying Inaros, i think it's safe to disregard him entirely for the idea of oneshots and shield gates. He has no shields and can self revive if his massive health pool is dropped.

[shengar]

If anything, with the addition of Inaros, ignoring his abilites to restore his health, shows even more that the current game defense mechanic heavily favors high health and high armor, mostly due to the fact that shield does not benefit from damage mitigation that health have from armor. This makes high shielded or even decently shielded frames that supposedly able to held on their own get constantly oneshot since these frames mostly happened to have abysmal armor. Banshee who have 15 armor value comes first to my mind, and the fact that she doesn't have hard CC abilities makes it worse even though her ability should be useful at late endless mission.

[Tyranem]

I'd be more interested in perhaps it only activating the shield gate if the damage was over 25/50% of your MAX shields. This way it still gives newer players a challenge as there aren't any enemies with enough firepower to seep into your health anyways. This way your idea still works but it doesn't negate too much of the early game.

[Feallike]

My Mirage needs this very badly. :(

[PsiWarp]

All for the gate. Shields should do a bit more to protect us because there's next to no advantage in investing in shield mods.

[alergiclaprosti]

On 12/26/2015 at 1:02 PM, EmptyDevil said:

 

"This is power creep"

 

- Not in the slightest. Power creep is when newer content/additions trivialize the old by making the old less appealing by comparison(rewards, effectiveness, and etc).

 

Warframe allready suffers from this (from the perspective of rewards) but in an opposite way.

It's not about low lvl content being trivial and losing it's appeal. It's about how the high level content gives the same stupid rewards as low lvl content(even if far more effort was put in).

[CrudShuzKong]

On 2/25/2016 at 3:40 AM, EmptyDevil said:

Updated OP by adding example with segmented shields.

OMG I love this, but I would like to balance it out by having shields only refill to the upper end of a segment, then wait for recharge delay again, and then fill up the shield completely. I feel that having multiple shield gates would make you very tanky with lots of shields if you could just refill them in one go by ducking into cover for a second.

Also as stated a lot of times, SCI of 1 second is quite much for  game as fast paced as Warframe. You should not be able to survive jumping into a huge group and then popping cc, due to 1 second invincibility giving you time to cast it.

[EmptyDevil]

16 hours ago, Tyranem said:

I'd be more interested in perhaps it only activating the shield gate if the damage was over 25/50% of your MAX shields. This way it still gives newer players a challenge as there aren't any enemies with enough firepower to seep into your health anyways. This way your idea still works but it doesn't negate too much of the early game.

Can you give me an example or 2 for how this might work?

9 hours ago, CrudShuzKong said:

OMG I love this, but I would like to balance it out by having shields only refill to the upper end of a segment, then wait for recharge delay again, and then fill up the shield completely. I feel that having multiple shield gates would make you very tanky with lots of shields if you could just refill them in one go by ducking into cover for a second.

So you basically think the shields should recharge from the segment furthest from health first? I will consider that.

9 hours ago, CrudShuzKong said:

Also as stated a lot of times, SCI of 1 second is quite much for  game as fast paced as Warframe. You should not be able to survive jumping into a huge group and then popping cc, due to 1 second invincibility giving you time to cast it.

I don't think it's that long. If anything, i'd reduce it to 0.5 seconds.

[CrudShuzKong]

3 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

So you basically think the shields should recharge from the segment furthest from health first? I will consider that.

Nah my wording is just weird, i only want the shields to not recharge in one go, but rather one segment after another with shield recharge delay in between. In order to not get all the shield gates back in one go.

 

3 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

I don't think it's that long. If anything, i'd reduce it to 0.5 seconds.

Yeah its really hard to tell just from theorycrafting, those numbers are easily adjusted for balance after the fact.

Edited March 30, 2016 by CrudShuzKong

[EmptyDevil]

Just now, CrudShuzKong said:

Nah my wording is just weird, i only want the shields to not recharge in one go, but rather one segment after another with shield recharge delay in between. In order to not get all the shield gates back in one go.

Oh, no worries, it's already like that in this thread.

1 minute ago, CrudShuzKong said:

Yeah its really hard to tell just from theorycrafting, those numbers are easily adjusted for balance after the fact.

I definitely agree. 

[CrudShuzKong]

I really love all of this, it is so well thought through... Still doubt htat DE will implement it any time soon, since the chance that it upsets higher level balance is quite high...

I doubt it will break the game, but the impact will be felt no matter what kind of mission you go to and that is a scary thing to face.

Edited March 30, 2016 by CrudShuzKong