The Sniper Issue

[EX-Zanki]

Hi, i know there are a lot of people concerned/angered/bothered for the sniper's recent rework, i also know there is at least three other sniper related threads, but my intentions is to DE to read this and to enchance what's already done and not to undo it.. so.. i hope i can accomplish my mission.

 

Its clear DE's intentions was to make sniper play fun, its very clear that they really scratched their head because they know sniper play is very niche to say the least, there is currently nothing any sniper could do that a decent rifle/shotgun/pistol couldn't do better, so they came with this rework that looks kind of good on paper and incomplete on praxis.

 

Why would you choose an sniper?

Players looking for a sniper in Warframe are fans of snipers in general, want to make sure you can kill everything in one shot, like quiet or kind of stealth play, with a gun, cause... you now.. GUNS...

 

The thing is.....

Snipers currently can't one shot everything thanks to enemy scaling or because of enemy shield like powers.

Can't play the quiet and slow game because you are going to miss shots either because of swaying when using the zoom mechanic or because you will try to quick snipe something near you off sights... or finally just cause since the mechanic has its good share of unreliability, sometimes you will miss sure to connect shots out of nothing... like a cruel magic trick, zooming is hard to use cause of that swaying that either makes you miss a shot or makes you want to puke.

 

So, in order to preserve sniper play.. and in order not to ditch an entire weapon class... i will attempt to present possible implementations to consider for the future...

 

1.- Get rid of zoom swaying: This will reduce missed shots, and will make zooming more reliable, in an open battlefield every missed shot is a big thing.

2.- Eliminate increasing bonus per zoom: Just make them plain on to the weapon, because of this many players just play with the lanka on the last zoom option, missing the point of variable zooming, those options should be for utility only rather than damage.

3.- Allow to change zoom when off sights: Along with number 2 this will allow for a more dynamic use of variable zooming.

4.- Add another layer of utility to zooming: Like a scan view like vision, this will be very good when going on dark places or another missions where enemy location is vital and will make planning shoots easier.

5.- Increase damage on shield like powers: In order to give snipers some utility in open battlefield, and make use of selective shooting (priority targeting).

6.- Get rid of off sight inaccuracy: Every weapon has it, sometimes you will NEED shooting off sights when enemies are surrounding you or being overwhelmed.

7.- Allow for shooting off sights when attempting to shoot when latched on to a wall: Cause i'm sure you wouldn't latch on to a wall when trying to shoot someone from more than 10 meters away from you, it would make it easier and more comfortable.

 

Well this is all i have for now, I have seen most of them in very different threads i just wanted to summarize the best and add some of my own, the only thing i really hope is that DE could take another look on this matter.

Edited January 6, 2016 by EX-Zanki

[SolaireTheSunWalker]

First off #6 no just no, if you're getting surrounded use your secondary/melee removing. Secondly it sounds more you're not use to the new sniper rework so instead of getting use to it, make threads about something that is perfectly fine the way it is. 

"Snipers currently can't one shot everything thanks to enemy scaling or because of enemy shield like powers." I literally don't understand this one bit, it sounds a lot of this thread is a complaint and not everything has to one shot. #1 remove sway to reduce missed shots to make zooming more reliable .... this seems like a case of 



 

Edited January 6, 2016 by SolaireTheSunWalker

[[DE]Grzegorz]

First off #6 no just no, if you're getting surrounded use your secondary/melee removing. Secondly it sounds more you're not use to the new sniper rework so instead of getting use to it, make threads about something that is perfectly fine the way it is.

Make weapon swapping quick and responsive then.

 

Snipers are bad because they fail against hordes, on top of many unnecessary changes that were simply copied from other games without any thought put into it. DE's been like "it works in other games so it has to work in Warframe!".

Edited January 6, 2016 by Mofixil

[taiiat]

- the Zoom Sway is definitely pointless - you decide arbitrarily that this Archetype should have RNG Aim - when it's the MOST Skill based Precision Archetype in the game.

i know Digital Extremes has experience making PvP Shooters & working on them - this is stupid. you guys know better. remove it. it would make sense in a game that was serious about Weapon handling - but Warframe isn't.

Players in Warframe that don't go the W+M1 route have been, like in many games, already at a disadvantage for the entire life of Warframe because Allies can constantly shake your screen for no good reason at all, as well as Enemies that are very far away.

why does my Screen Shake when a Shockwave MOA stomps like, 60m away from me? because somebody is butthurt about people being able to aim Killing things faster than them is the only logical explanation i can come up with.

Warframe certainly loves to have everything arbitrarily shake your screen, usually from things that are much too far away to have any reason to.

i'm not specifically against my screen being shaken from time to time when it makes sense. but Video Games - Warframe included - seem to insist that if a little bit of screen shake is good, a LOT is better.

can i still generally hit despite it? sure - but it exists without purpose.

 

- i don't have a problem with Zoom levels having different Bonuses. most have generic Bonuses that aren't interesting at all, but a couple are good.

so with Lanka - Zoom 2/3 are distinctly different. Zoom 2 makes for a 92.5% Crit Chance - which is very good. Zoom 3 makes 112.5% Crit Chance, which is extremely good obviously.

however, Zoom 2 is plenty sufficient unless you're in a very large area. could you always use Zoom 3? yes - but there's objectively very little reason to.

Lanka's Optic is therefore interesting (Crit Chance is beneficial and allows it to shoot reliably, very nice especially with the Charge Time).

no comment on Rubico - and all of the rest are just s...ty. terrible Base Damage increases, and they all have the same levels of it. generic, lame, uninteresting.

 

- you... can change your Zoom level while not sighted. pressing the button will change it, it just doesn't show you anything.

 

- would prefer we add in an Optic slot with unique Mods like has been fairly popularly talked about in the past - choose from a wide variety of Optic Types that have benefits and detriments.

 

- what are you talking about? more Damage? they do a lot already, i really don't know what you're talking about here.

 

- i slightly agree. i think the Accuracy detriment for Hip Firing is a bit extreme. it does mostly make sense to be there, but it's kind've nuts in how much of a decrease it is. it's suppose to become inaccurate, not a Fragmentation Grenade.

 

- a better solution would be for Wall Latching (optionally atleast) to be not bound to Fine Aim.

 

make threads about something that is perfectly fine the way it is.

you're quite the blank slate of a ben dover aren't you.

those are very good words to say basically nothing, forming no actual opinion.

 

or your bar is held down where my toes are. that is possible.

Edited January 6, 2016 by taiiat

[Azamagon]

1.- Get rid of zoom swaying: This will reduce missed shots, and will make zooming more reliable, in an open battlefield every missed shot is a big thing.

2.- Eliminate increasing bonus per zoom: Just make them plain on to the weapon, because of this many players just play with the lanka on the last zoom option, missing the point of variable zooming, those options should be for utility only rather than damage.

3.- Allow to change zoom when off sights: Along with number 2 this will allow for a more dynamic use of variable zooming.

4.- Add another layer of utility to zooming: Like a scan view like vision, this will be very good when going on dark places or another missions where enemy location is vital and will make planning shoots easier.

5.- Increase damage on shield like powers: In order to give snipers some utility in open battlefield, and make use of selective shooting (priority targeting).

6.- Get rid of off sight inaccuracy: Every weapon has it, sometimes you will NEED shooting off sights when enemies are surrounding you or being overwhelmed.

7.- Allow for shooting off sights when attempting to shoot when latched on to a wall: Cause i'm sure you wouldn't latch on to a wall when trying to shoot someone from more than 10 meters away from you, it would make it easier and more comfortable.

 

Well this is all i have for now, I have seen most of them in very different threads i just wanted to summarize the best and add some of my own, the only thing i really hope is that DE could take another look on this matter.

1 - Agreed. It's just pointless.

2 - I agreed here too. Get rid of zoom bonuses ENTIRELY. The utility of having variable zoom is unique in itself. The bonuses just ignores that fact. This is especially when the bonuses are as strong as they are on the Lanka; Why use lower zoom if one can only reliably kill highlevel stuff (which is pretty much the only place where Snipers could have a use, as they are designed right now) with the max zoom on?

3 - Hmm, you can't change the zoom when not aiming? I thought you could?

4 - That would be neat indeed. And THAT (along with variable zoom) is a great way to make Snipers feel unique, not with weird, out of place things like combo and scoping bonuses.

5 - Well, I have an idea for Nullifiers: You know how damage dealt to their shields are capped to 400? What if all damage above 400 caused the Nullifier bubbles to get holes in them? That way, heavyhitters like Snipers and Bows could 2 shot these targets, further giving them a nice HVT-killer niche. (Note; This hole-making mechanic shouldn't apply to explosives though, they have enough benefits already).

6 - You mean, bring back the better hipfire accuracy? Then yes, I agreed.

7 - Even better: Make one of the zoom options for snipers an ironsight one, which would be the one used while wall-latching :)

 

I think there is a bunch more stuff needed for Snipers though.

* Better magsizes and/or reloadtimes.

* Possibly innate punchthrough. This would work really well with the "scan / x-ray" view on scopes.

* Not only remove the scope bonuses (due to what they promote), but also the combo mechanic. It's not unique anyway, melee already had that.

* Give all Snipers (and all Bows) reliable critical hits through modding. Removing the combo and scoping bonuses would be enough of a trade for that.

* Make weaponswapping speeds MUCH quicker. This would allow one to make better use of melee and secondaries when you need to deal with prolonged closer range combat.

If you are curious, here are all my suggestions for Snipers

 

If people think this will obsolete Bows, it really won't. Bows have the advantage over Snipers with also having ragdoll death, innate silence, and really quick refiring. Snipers would have the strengths over Bows of being hitscan and have variable, "x-ray" scopes (Lanka's projectile and Vectis quick reload would make them a bit in between). Damagewise, they'd be about the same though. Making Snipers feel more like sidegrades to Bows is a GOOD thing!

Edited January 6, 2016 by Azamagon

[SolaireTheSunWalker]

- the Zoom Sway is definitely pointless - you decide arbitrarily that this Archetype should have RNG Aim - when it's the MOST Skill based Precision Archetype in the game.

i know Digital Extremes has experience making PvP Shooters & working on them - this is stupid. you guys know better. remove it. it would make sense in a game that was serious about Weapon handling - but Warframe isn't.

Players in Warframe that don't go the W+M1 route have been, like in many games, already at a disadvantage for the entire life of Warframe because Allies can constantly shake your screen for no good reason at all, as well as Enemies that are very far away.

why does my Screen Shake when a Shockwave MOA stomps like, 60m away from me? because somebody is butthurt about people being able to aim Killing things faster than them is the only logical explanation i can come up with.

Warframe certainly loves to have everything arbitrarily shake your screen, usually from things that are much too far away to have any reason to.

i'm not specifically against my screen being shaken from time to time when it makes sense. but Video Games - Warframe included - seem to insist that if a little bit of screen shake is good, a LOT is better.

can i still generally hit despite it? sure - but it exists without purpose.

 

- i don't have a problem with Zoom levels having different Bonuses. most have generic Bonuses that aren't interesting at all, but a couple are good.

so with Lanka - Zoom 2/3 are distinctly different. Zoom 2 makes for a 92.5% Crit Chance - which is very good. Zoom 3 makes 112.5% Crit Chance, which is extremely good obviously.

however, Zoom 2 is plenty sufficient unless you're in a very large area. could you always use Zoom 3? yes - but there's objectively very little reason to.

Lanka's Optic is therefore interesting (Crit Chance is beneficial and allows it to shoot reliably, very nice especially with the Charge Time).

no comment on Rubico - and all of the rest are just s...ty. terrible Base Damage increases, and they all have the same levels of it. generic, lame, uninteresting.

 

- you... can change your Zoom level while not sighted. pressing the button will change it, it just doesn't show you anything.

 

- would prefer we add in an Optic slot with unique Mods like has been fairly popularly talked about in the past - choose from a wide variety of Optic Types that have benefits and detriments.

 

- what are you talking about? more Damage? they do a lot already, i really don't know what you're talking about here.

 

- i slightly agree. i think the Accuracy detriment for Hip Firing is a bit extreme. it does mostly make sense to be there, but it's kind've nuts in how much of a decrease it is. it's suppose to become inaccurate, not a Fragmentation Grenade.

 

- a better solution would be for Wall Latching (optionally atleast) to be not bound to Fine Aim.

 

you're quite the blank slate of a ben dover aren't you.

those are very good words to say basically nothing, forming no actual opinion.

 

or your bar is held down where my toes are. that is possible.

I did actually form an opinion maybe read the rest? There is nothing wrong with how snipers work in warframe the rework not only made snipers that didn't perform well to becoming a complete beast *cough* Lanka etc, So now people actually use something other than the vectis... etc etc all these (Improvments) OP has seems like it's for his benefit not for the whole community.  

As I stated before snipers are fine the way they stand DE made them way better prior to sniper rework, I mean come on everyone used a vectis now things of changed and there are even more good snipers with special scoping buffs 

 

Make weapon swapping quick and responsive then.

 

Snipers are bad because they fail against hordes, on top of many unnecessary changes that were simply copied from other games without any thought put into it. DE's been like "it works in other games so it has to work in Warframe!".

Bows fail against hordes of enemy's unless under the circumstances they are lined up should I be trying to change the way bows work because of that? no because it literally makes no sense nor do I say make weapon swapping for bows, if its that much of a pain use speed holster GG?

[taiiat]

I did actually form an opinion

 

DE made them way better prior to sniper rework

not really - your opinion was "it's fine because raisons git gud".

that's not an opinion.

 

 

there's some early threads of interesting systems, but as far as general Gameplay is concerned, what happened was:

 

more Damage

lower Accuracy when you're not using the Optic

RNG aim when using Optics

Lanka gained much more reliable Crits

Lanka is no longer Silent

 

there's the gist.

is it better? sure. even early threads that don't achieve much that's interesting is still more than was there before.

the Damage is a bit extreme on some, Lanka in particular does more Damage than it has reason to (just like Hek/Tigris/Drakgoon/Sobek). most of the others are probably just a hair too high for their own good.

 

 

did i like Sniper Rifles before? yes.

do i like them now? yes.

 

speed holster

if you know what you're talking about, then you know Speed Holster is useless. has never actually done what it says it does. because it does almost nothing. and even 4 of them is still barely any faster than without any.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Bows fail against hordes of enemy's unless under the circumstances they are lined up should I be trying to change the way bows work because of that? no because it literally makes no sense nor do I say make weapon swapping for bows, if its that much of a pain use speed holster GG?

Bows still are better suited for general gameplay for a bunch of reasons. Like no zoom dependency to be effective, higher or equal firerate (thanks to how they get double benefit from firerate mods), no need to reload whatsoever...

 

On top of that, bows are pretty decent for stealth gameplay, and have additional swagfactor on top of that.

 

So, in short:

Generally better output in DPS and firerate.

Less ill suited against ranges mostly found in the game.

Arguably have their niche in stealth gameplay.

 

And Speed Holster is a complete bandaid solution, as not only there are much better alternatives, but speed holster alone doesn't really work as intended.