Let's Discuss: Enemy Challenge Escalation.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Our enemies and how we interact with them are what make Warframe, Warframe.  What they do to us, and what we do to them is what should make this game an awesome shooter.  Except right now they're a mess.  Forum goers make it all too apparent they don't like the concept of enemies simply getting bigger health, armor and damage numbers.  But there's nothing else to be done unless they can fight despite the presence of rampant crowd control usage because things escalate into "get one shot" territory.

 

So, to start, I'm going to look at some of the Grineer and suggest how to increase their challenge without solely relying on numbers.

 

To start, I'll suggest a maximum level of 60.  That's right - Sixty.  The reason being that the idea is for enemies to scale to a point where they won't one shot Tenno, but still deal high damage, are fairly sturdy, hard to control, and have many tools to press down hard on Tenno.  Basically, always give players a fighting chance to go indefinitely, but not make it brain dead easy.  In fact, it should be very hard and very tiring.  To the point where crowding around a Trinity and beneath a Frost globe is still going to get your stupid sorry butt killed.  Specifically, enemies should get players to also move around and utilize cover to avoid dying, not just spamming CC.

 

The following are the crowd control resiliences:

Unstoppable - negates movement impeding effects (slows, roots.)

Stability - negates action impeding effects (stuns, knock downs.)

Counter-Measures - negates combat debuffs (blinds.)

True-Sense - negates perception buffs to Tenno (invisibility, primarily.)

 

These can either be absolutes, or like damage resistances, where a unit with unstoppable might reduce its duration by 75%.  For the purposes of spitballing, this is mostly irrelevant.  Trying for fun escalations in difficulty, not precision balance.  Because a number can be anything, let's focus on fun rules for the enemies that change how they approach us, and how we respond to them.

 

The examples will be Grineer, aka, the most realized faction (Corpus need love, and I've no love for the Infested.)  I'd do other factions, but I've been writing all day and Warframe is calling.

 

Grineer: Grineer will specialize primarily in moving in pace with Tenno and countering their powers.  They feature a lot of movement oriented high level units offset by slowly advancing heavy infantry intended to force Tenno into moving around.

 

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Lancer family

 

-Levels 1-17: Lancer.  Basic infantry unit, fresh from the tubes.

Equipment:  Grakata, Frag Grenades, Sheev (Disarm.)  

Resilience: None.

 

-Levels 15-32: Elite Lancer.  Combat veteran.

Equipment:  Hind, Frag Grenades, Sheev (Disarm.)

Resilience: None.

 

-Levels 30-47:  Hellion.  Lancer equipped for high mobility to combat Tenno.

Equipment:  Grakata, Chak Grenades, jump pack, Viper (Disarm.)

Resilience: Stability.

Special Note: Jump pack only allows vaulting across the battlefield.

 

-Levels 45-60:  Elite Hellion. Elite Lancer equipped to evade and overwhelm Tenno with sheer firepower.

Equipment:  Karak, Chak Grenades, Jet pack, Viper (Disarm.)

Resilience: Stability.

Special Note: Jet pack allows vaulting around as well as hovering.  Missiles no longer track and are intended to flush out Tenno, forcing them to move.

 

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Melee family

 

-Levels 1-17: Butcher.  Standard issue rusher.

Equipment:  Cleaver.  Guts.

Resilience: None.

 

-Levels 15-32: Scorpion.  Advanced melee combatant for capturing and massacring targets.

Equipment:  Machete, Hookline.

Resilience: Unstoppable.

 

-Levels 30-47: Valkyrie.  Built to advance against Tenno without stopping.

Equipment:  Atterax, Bulwark, Slash Dash.

Resilience: Unstoppable.

Special Note:  Bulwark is the Shield Lancer's shield, but can not be punched through, and counts as a break in line of sight for powers.

 

-Levels 45-60: Manic.  Pinnacle of Grineer cloning research.  Fights and moves like a Tenno.

Equipment:  Claws, Teleport, Cloak, Regenerator. 

Resilience: Unstoppable, Stability, True Sense.

Special Note: Invulnerability should be removed due to crowd control resiliences and new armor model.

 

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Sniper Family

 

-Levels 1-32: Ballista.  Basic Grineer Sniper.

Equipment: Vulkar, Chak Grenades, Viper (Disarm.)

Resilience: Counter-measures, True Sense.

 

-Levels 15-47: Arbalest.  Grineer Marksman designated to engage highly mobile Tenno threats.

Equipment: Grinlok, Chak Grenades, Jump Pack, Marelok (Disarm.)

Resilience: Unstoppable.

 

-Levels 30-60: Predator.  Grineer specialized in hunting down Tenno.

Equipment:  Buzlok, Chak Grenades, Cloak, Twin Gremlins (Disarm.)

Resilience: Unstoppable, Counter-measures, True-Sense.

Special note: Tagged invisible frames are visible to all Grineer.

 

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Heavy Family

 

-Levels 1-17: Napalm.  Heavy infantry for invasions and clearing out masses of hostiles.

Equipment: Pyrotechnic Ignis, Ignis (Disarm.)

Resilience: Stability.

 

-Levels 15-45: Bombard.  Heavy infantry designed to combat Tenno mobility.

Equipment:  Ogris. Hek (Disarm.)

Resilience: Stability, Unstoppable.

 

-Levels 30-60: Dragoon.  Heavy infantry designated to advance on Tenno.  Armor pieces stop health damage, but can be destroyed.

Equipment:  Drakgoon.  Gorgon (Disarm.)

Resilience: Stability, Unstoppable.

 

Levels 60-60: Ogre.  Impregnable walking fortress of power armor.  Has a weakpoint on the back.  Slow to turn.

Equipment:  Drakgoon.  Mortar Cannon.  Tonkor (Disarm.)

Resilience: Stability, Unstoppable, Counter-measures.

Special Note:  Intended as a "game ending" enemy.  Should spawn with greater frequency as an endless mission goes on.  Could also serve as a sabotage/exterminate target at any level.

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Gunner Family

 

-Levels 1-40:  Heavy Gunner.  Heavy Infantry unit designed to spew tons of lead in the direction of the enemy.

Equipment: Gorgon, Twin Gremlins (Disarm.)

Resilience: Stability, Unstoppable.

 

-Levels 40-60: Heavy Grenadier.  Elite heavy gunners equipped to disperse and take down tenno cells.

Equipment:  Tonkor, Gorgon (Disarm.)

Resilience: Stability, Unstoppable.

 

-Levels 60-60: Praetorian Guard.  The Twin Kweens personal guard deployed with a single purpose - Kill Tenno.

Equipment:  Ogris, Hookline, Sobek (Disarm.)

Resilience: Stability, Unstoppable, Counter-measures, True Sense.

 

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All other Grineer units are considered special spawns as far as I'm concerned.  I just wanted to spell out an example of escalating a collection of base units into evolved forms with more capabilities as the mission rises in level.

 

I leave the rest of this thread to the community.  I did my part.  Ball is in DE's court.

 

 

 

Other topics:

 

Let Me Explain:  Armor Mechanics Suggestion.

Let's Discuss: Categorizing Crowd Control.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Littleman88

[Chipputer]

I like the idea of adding "resilience" to the enemies. Basically prefixes and suffixes from hack and slash games. Always a good thing to have.

[Maicael]

I like this idea. The AI could also use tweaks so that tactics between different units begin to increase and evolve as their level increases. Shield Lancers could start forming an advancing barricade with 3+ units similar to Riot Police, for example.

[(PSN)Axel_Klauser]

these ideas are amazingly well thought out, I love it! I've been thinking about enemy ai and the tactics they should use as well, and your ideas I can get behind, nice job

[enJohneering]

This is a really nice idea. We could use some new mob types and AI, and these seem great. In fact, many of these sounds like a grineer form of combas, a unit that has cause me a death or two on several sortee missions. Real a$$holes those guys. So I don't doubt something like this may come eventually. Let's hope soon. However, you idea of changing the base unit might have problems.

 

Right now the spawn rates on the type of enemies are effected by level and are forced to meet location criteria (like on earth no matter how high level you go you will not see certain mobs). It would be nice to have much heavier scalling so that an elite lancer would be a somewhat rare sight on something like Ceres. I would still want a mix though. It's too easy to simplify your tactics and cheese a mission if you know exactly what will be in there. Oh, it's a hellion level and they can see invisibility? Just take a tank. Oh it's unstoppable enemies? Take invisibility. Perhaps this could be worked around with resilience types on different classes of the same level, but I still like the variety.

 

If you want a really good example of this, there was a tac alert not too long ago (part of the Clem release) where you could go and fight the nightwatch. You think mid-level mobs (50ish) can't kick your butt? You thought wrong. Suddenly all the heavy gunners got ogris, bombards got napalm, and the elite lancers got karaks. Other units got upgrades too perhaps, but that is all I could see while dodging for my life. It was fun, and the whole mission became a trial in tactics. I would like to see this kind thing again, and I think suggestions like yours get us closer. 

[ShortCat]

Very good suggestion, thumbs up.

 

I like this idea. The AI could also use tweaks so that tactics between different units begin to increase and evolve as their level increases. Shield Lancers could start forming an advancing barricade with 3+ units similar to Riot Police, for example.

The AI already does this to a some degree, but it is hard to see due to insta kills or mass CC.

[InglriousB]

I really like the level cap of 60. Because right now it is either easy sh*t to take down in most regular missions or rush the hell and try not to get shot in sortie.

This would add a good dimension to the game, really like to see it

[dmirtygorachyov]

But... my cheese!

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Well could be ok.. but dont forget that this cc immunity causes problems with trials (especially nightmare) where you really are not allowed to move

[dmirtygorachyov]

WTB something that doesn't get removed by pressing 4 pls.

[Lost_Cartographer]

This is a really nice idea. We could use some new mob types and AI, and these seem great. In fact, many of these sounds like a grineer form of combas, a unit that has cause me a death or two on several sortee missions. Real a$$holes those guys. So I don't doubt something like this may come eventually. Let's hope soon. However, you idea of changing the base unit might have problems.

 

Right now the spawn rates on the type of enemies are effected by level and are forced to meet location criteria (like on earth no matter how high level you go you will not see certain mobs). It would be nice to have much heavier scalling so that an elite lancer would be a somewhat rare sight on something like Ceres. I would still want a mix though. It's too easy to simplify your tactics and cheese a mission if you know exactly what will be in there. Oh, it's a hellion level and they can see invisibility? Just take a tank. Oh it's unstoppable enemies? Take invisibility. Perhaps this could be worked around with resilience types on different classes of the same level, but I still like the variety.

 

If you want a really good example of this, there was a tac alert not too long ago (part of the Clem release) where you could go and fight the nightwatch. You think mid-level mobs (50ish) can't kick your butt? You thought wrong. Suddenly all the heavy gunners got ogris, bombards got napalm, and the elite lancers got karaks. Other units got upgrades too perhaps, but that is all I could see while dodging for my life. It was fun, and the whole mission became a trial in tactics. I would like to see this kind thing again, and I think suggestions like yours get us closer. 

The idea is that at level sixty teams will be facing Elite Hellions, Manics, Predators, Dragoons, Ogres (at first rarely, but more and more...) Heavy Grenadiers and Praetorian Guards (like Ogres, rarely but gradually building into common) at the same time, and each comes with their own strengths.  These aren't like missions with a special modifier, but constants - Predators can always see through stealth for example, because their role is to hunt down Tenno, and they have the ability to cloak, which by the way can be countered with an AoE effect that "lights them up."  I would even dare say the scanner should highlight them as a fail safe measure.

 

DE's call though, the tiers before these could be the norm and these spawn in place of every 5th enemy of the same family, and even eventually becoming the common spawns by what we might consider level 80-100 timing/waves now (but still capped at 60.)  And of course, adjustments to some of the cheaper mechanics like Hellion homing missiles losing their homing and Manics losing their invulnerability phase just to keep things a little fairer.  

 

Either way, that's a LOT for a player or group of players to deal with that isn't just super sponge insta-gib-powered material with one ability (shoot at Tenno) as it is now.  It really would take the perfect team make up to CC them all (and there's STILL one unit totally immune to CC in the Praetorian Guard just as a fail safe) and the Ogre, if nothing else, forces players to move around to its back to take it down even if it could be indefinitely CCed.  Of course, it can't see through Loki's invis... but there are units that can, and one of those units can even mark him such that everyone can.  This could be enough to break up the cell's control of the map.  And of course, chak grenades.  One gets into where the Tenno are camping, they're screwed if they've been relying on ability spam unless they scatter ASAP.

 

And really, that's the point - instead of bigger numbers, enemies get more tricks to engage Tenno.  An Elite Hellion could have the exact same health and rifle damage as an Elite Lancer... the Elite Hellion just comes with higher mobility and a high damage, avoidable missile barrage.  By default he's a greater danger and challenge.  That's what people have been asking for in terms of challenge in place of just rising stats.  The CC resistances are there just to ensure that these enemies are actually challenges to some degree, but I tried to logically apply their resistances.  Something meant to charge towards the Tenno would probably be built to plow through anything that would impede or stop it.

 

Still, if anyone's got their own ideas, I'd like to hear them.  I only presented the Grineer ideas I did to hopefully get some creative gears turning.  Hopefully, it gets DE to think too.  It's more important to ask what reaction the unit is intended to get out of the player, rather than what it can do to them.  Generally, positive challenges are cool though, even if they're not always entirely fair.  A lot of DE's newer enemies seem to focus on what they do to the player, and not so much on getting a meaningful reaction.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Littleman88

[Feallike]

I like it. If you could overtime do one for Corpus. Though I don't think Infested have enough units to do one for them. Their is litterally no downside to capping enemy levels other than for powercreeps.

 

Its not like enemy droprates go up with level. :/ Affinity goes up so slowly that it doesn't matter either.

 

 

Seriously DE take a page from this guys idea when balancing enemies.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Feallike

[MythBringer]

I like this. Its a good alternative

[Zoretor]

+1 is too insignificant...

 

+Googolplex!