Changes To The Game And Legal Consequences

[Vicious_Vipa]

hey guys,

this is just something I have been asking myself - maybe somebody can clarify.

 

 

Just to give an example instead of long explanations:

Let's say you buy the Argon Scope Mod for like 300-500 Platinum after the event.

 

And then (hypothetically speaking)  DE  realizes it is gamebreaking and nerfs it to the ground.

 

Since people have put reallife money into it, isn't this scenario at least "problematic" ?

People deliberately spent their money on it BECAUSE of the stats.

Even if it doesn't break the law - it at least is very awkward and agitating.

 

 

This is just an example and can be applied ton any other nerf (or buff) you might think of and

people have spent reallife money on.

 

 

Going a little bit further:

TIME is at least as precious as money (in a way they even are convertible/connected) and since this game 

is a "grindfest" I have rarely seen in my life, it would already piss me off very much if I put my "work" (lets call it by the right name) into getting something which gets nerfed later.

[SleepyPip]

Well, the EULA does say that DE can do changes in-game whenever they want.

[Dobermann92]

This isn't problematic (especially on the legal side), because you decided to spend that much platinum on the mod. I know it is frustrating to miss the OP event mods, but until this game changes the RNG system we cannot do anything about.

[Drakenreiter]

DE didn't ask you 300-500 platinum for that mod. Another player did. It was also your choice to give that amount of platinum to that other player. Please stop looking for issues where there are none.

[Stratego89]

Frankly speaking, it's not DE's problem if people decide they want to spend obscene amounts of money for in game items that they decide to change later on. The EULA says they can and will change things whenever they want, however they want.

 

To boot- all these new mods are obviously overpowered. The fact that DE is even putting them in game has made me start to question what is going on in their heads atm. I fully EXPECT a nerf. As should everyone else. Never buy something for a bunch of money even if it doesn't seem like it'll get nerfed- if you're not willing to accept if it will be in the future.

 

EDIT: Also, it's common knowledge for players nowadays that DE rereleases event mods in various formats. Future events, tactical alerts, baro's stock, drop tables, and more. Spending obscene amounts of plat on them is a choice the PLAYER makes- knowing full well that it'll be obtainable in other ways in the future.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Stratego89

[FaLKReN]

This would hardly qualify as a legal matter. Nobody forced you to do it, and their EULA covers this pretty well. My advice is to only spend plat you're willing to lose, even if what you're spending it on turns out to be not worth your investment.

[(XBOX)SwagScapegoat]

Well, the EULA does say that DE can do changes in-game whenever they want.

https://warframe.com/eula

[Weidro]

warframe is still in the open beta

and changes can hapen every second if DE wants

every single player has agreed to the TOS

noone owns his acc and DE can do to it and to the game whatever they want

everyone accepted this by creating his/her acc

 

i know that "i have read x and agree with it" is the biggest internet lie

[Yrveth]

You spend your money when you buy the plat, not when you use it to trade ingame. So no, it shouldn't be a problem.

[DreadmaulEx]

Well the game is in beta so it is a gray zone, they can change what they want, when they want. You deside if it is worth that amount of money or not keeping in mind that it might get nerfed or not. i see your point and i understand what your saying. But at the end of the day you will have to deside if you want to spend that much now or wait and se if it gets nerfed and then pick it up later. This is the best answear i can give maybe someone ells has a diffrent view.

[Vicious_Vipa]

DE didn't ask you 300-500 platinum for that mod. Another player did. It was also your choice to give that amount of platinum to that other player. Please stop looking for issues where there are none.

 

you misunderstood me.

 

I did NOT spend that kind of money and I won't.

I was merely asking something that interests me.

 

 

And of course I can imagine that DE has covered this point in the contract you

sign by installing the game.

 

However, I am merely pointing out how awkward and problematic nerfs can be.

People (including me) cry for nerfs very recklessly and sometimes don't think of such things.

 

Besides, we are all customers and nobody wants to have angry customers.

DE really is in a bad situation sometimes and the more important is it to balance

things BEFORE they are released.

 

 

(Not directly on Topic)

Constantly Growing Games like Warframe get more and more complicated over the years and implementing a new thing

(for example FOCUS) easily has consequences on the existing balance-networks

which can hardly be foreseen.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Vicious_Vipa

[SleepyPip]

https://warframe.com/eula

 

"Digital Extremes may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Software at any time."

 

Yes, it does say that they can change anything anytime

[MycArch]

Yes but the question is: is that legally binding if it contradicts national laws?

[Cosmic_Elf]

They do have a disclaimer for such i think on there site... but it does encourage me to spend less real money on the game and do more grinding instead.

[The_Mustachio]

i know that "i have read x and agree with it" is the biggest internet lie

 

I know 'lol' is over used these days, but this made me chuckle. You have made my day!

[ToxicTroublermaker]

you misunderstood me.

 

I did NOT spend that kind of money and I won't.

I was merely asking something that interests me.

 

 

And of course I can imagine that DE has covered this point in the contract you

sign by installing the game.

 

However, I am merely pointing out how awkward and problematic nerfs can be.

People (including me) cry for nerfs very recklessly and sometimes don't think of such things.

 

Besides, we are all customers and nobody wants to have angry customers.

DE really is in a bad situation sometimes and the more important is it to balance

things BEFORE they are released.

 

 

(Not directly on Topic)

Constantly Growing Games like Warframe get more and more complicated over the years and implementing a new thing

(for example FOCUS) easily has consequences on the existing balance-networks

which can hardly be foreseen.

At this point you're just using fancy sentence structuring and using fancy word choice to make your point seem more legitimate because its been completely proven otherwise by others.

I'm getting a psychology major I would know.

That said the point your making is quite impossible from a legal standpoint simply because of the TOS and EULA stating that the game can change for any reason at developer discretion without beingbheld legally accountable

[Gamem]

This game is still in beta... Changes will be happening all the time. Look at some warframes for example. When they get nerfed, I'm sure there are people that have bought them off the market....

[Vargras]

 

you misunderstood me.

 

I did NOT spend that kind of money and I won't.

I was merely asking something that interests me.

 

 

And of course I can imagine that DE has covered this point in the contract you

sign by installing the game.

 

However, I am merely pointing out how awkward and problematic nerfs can be.

People (including me) cry for nerfs very recklessly and sometimes don't think of such things.

 

Besides, we are all customers and nobody wants to have angry customers.

DE really is in a bad situation sometimes and the more important is it to balance

things BEFORE they are released.

 

 

(Not directly on Topic)

Constantly Growing Games like Warframe get more and more complicated over the years and implementing a new thing

(for example FOCUS) easily has consequences on the existing balance-networks

which can hardly be foreseen.

 

Totally irrelevant. Per the EULA and ToS, DE not only owns your account and can do whatever they want with it at any time (including banning you) without you being able to do anything about it, but they can also change whatever they want about the game itself at any time, and again, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

 

You signed it. You agreed to it. There's no "legal consequences" at all. Ever.

[MycArch]

Vargras actually there is sort of. Of course not about nerfing stuff. Basically if eula is in direct opposition to national laws (like I don't know maybe de owning our accounts and thus owning our personal data) then the parts of eula that are in direct opposition to this laws are not binding. I'm pretty sure courts in EU tend to overrule eula (provided of course that the fault is not on players side).

[Vicious_Vipa]

Totally irrelevant. Per the EULA and ToS, DE not only owns your account and can do whatever they want with it at any time (including banning you) without you being able to do anything about it, but they can also change whatever they want about the game itself at any time, and again, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

 

You signed it. You agreed to it. There's no "legal consequences" at all. Ever.

 

well, if you intended to reply to my post (the one you quoted)  then YOUR post is totally irrelevant.

Because I said exactly the same thing you are trying to teach me here.

 

 

 

The thread title was misleading so I wrote that DE probably has such things covered in the contract you sign by installing the game.

And so I rather pointed out how awkward and difficult the "non legal" situation between customer (community) and developer is. 

Just imagine thousands of people who buy something that gets nerfed afterwards.

Not to mention the time others have invested instead of buying something.

In other games I never really understood the tension nerfs could cause. But Warframe is a different caliber as it almost 

only is designed to let people grind for things (in comparison to other games I have played).

Also, in Warframe you can buy items DIRECTLY while other games mostly cost a certain amount to buy that game

and the ingame currency usually is very vague and not very popular to be purchased with real money.

 

 

Besides, Warframe is the ONLY online game that has ever managed to get me spend reallife money.

2 months ago I would have sworn that this can never happen.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Vicious_Vipa

[Shockwave-]

deleted - wrong thread

Edited January 27, 2016 by Shockwave-

[Inmemoratus]

I don't think there is a high chance that they would nerf a mod. We've already been doing overkill damage thanks to mods before this, so nothing really changes.

 

They give us overpowered mods because it doesn't hurt weapon diversity. If a mod makes a specific weapon too strong they can just nerf that weapon. For example, if Dread is too powerful thanks to Argon Scope, they can just nerf Dread. In the end Argon Scope didn't hurt weapon diversity. That's why they frequently add powerful mods. They're not afraid of that because adjusting individual weapons can always fix weapon diversity issues.

 

Mod diversity isn't a really big deal because lack of it doesn't hurt gameplay diversity. Regardless of which mods are the best, the choice of weapon is what determines the gameplay.

 

tldr; DE knows what the F*** they're doing.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

Well, in the example you gave, you spent money on Platinum, you got what you paid for. DE would be no longer responsible for what you do after that.

What if you were to buy Prime Access though? If they 'nerf' a frame into the ground, as you put, should you not be covered by Consumer Guarantees? You have a right to a refund if you purchase something, and what you receive is not what was advertised, within 30days (iirc). It seems like a grey area if what you purchased was changed from the original advertised product afterwards.

[TheFatDrake]

In a game where everything and anything can change at the whim of the developer. You decide to spend that money knowing that it could change at any moment.

[Inmemoratus]

Well, in the example you gave, you spent money on Platinum, you got what you paid for. DE would be no longer responsible for what you do after that.

What if you were to buy Prime Access though? If they 'nerf' a frame into the ground, as you put, should you not be covered by Consumer Guarantees? You have a right to a refund if you purchase something, and what you receive is not what was advertised, within 30days (iirc). It seems like a grey area if what you purchased was changed from the original advertised product afterwards.

According to the EULA you're not buying a product. You're giving them money and in return they change some bits in the part of the database that represents your account. Once they've done that, they have upheld their end of the transaction. They don't have any further legal obligations to you. Like nothing you give them money for is legally considered you purchasing a product.

 

However, keep in mind that they benefit the most by getting players to continue spending money over a long period of time. So they have a strong motivation to avoid doing something like you described.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Inmemoratus