Remove Bursas.

[taiiat]

skimming through a bit - sounds like Warframe's Scaling needs to get more intelligent here. (and just has always needed to in general).

 

low Level Missions, Bursas should probably have some of their more extreme Abilities completely disabled, move and turn a fair amount slower - but also can't drop anything to prevent abuse.

and then a newer Player trying to Kill it.... there comes the tricky part. Enemy Scaling is not flexible in Warframe, if we make it less frustrating for Excalinewb to Kill, then higher Level ones will be pushovers.

 

 

also in general the Attack Rate of the Ground Smash attack is rather high. too easy for a Player to get stunlocked permanently. this can be avoidable in a good number of situations, but if you make a mistake could also easily result in waiting to die.

Player Agency is critically important in Gameplay.

 

 

 

that being said, i really like Bursas. especially the Drover ofc - always been the super adorable one out of the bunch. drifting around you while it peewpews at you. (now if only Nezha could do that, drifting sideways around Enemies in a circle!)

though on a different hand, i don't like rainbow color spam that makes it very difficult to see, which Bursas can do. visual occlusion of their Attacks should be low. the Flashbang Attack is a different story, though there's some Player Agency missing there to be able to shorten the cooldown when affected.

 

 

 

Edit:

come to think of it, don't Manics only Spawn in Lv20+ Grineer Missions? probably a good idea to do the same for Bursas.

and yes, Spawning Bursas on a Timer rather than like, one (could get away with two, maybe three in high Level Missions) at a time and only Spawning more after it's Dead is ridiculous. 

 

Edit2:

 

you can't perform Sorties until MR4, and you can't fight Vay Hek(Earth) until MR5.

while off topic - it's f...ing stupid that Sorties are only Mastery 4. because no Player at that point can play them. period. they require having a full set of upgraded basic Mods, and more complex Mod Loadouts would be suggested. but having yourself completely setup with a variety of Equipment choices, solid Mods to put on them and Et Cetera - are mandatory to play Sorties.

 

Vay Hek requires Mastery 5 - Sorties should really be Mastery 10 (or atlest like 7/8) to hope that anyone that's playing them has the core of the game actually nailed down before they go into "game doesn't really work here" territory.

Edited February 15, 2016 by taiiat

[Autongnosis]

I agree wholeheartedly with taiiat.

Level-locking some of their most infamous abilities (ie the 5s lock knockdown) would go a long way.

Reducing their health as well.

For reference i was doing a pug run polymer farming on EGate, came in as Nekros myself, got matched with a full team of newbies (MR 3 or less, hardly 50hrs of playtime between the three of them). As soon as they started spawning i reverted to Reviveframe. They quite simply can't handle them, even with the aid and counsel of someone that has quite the long experience.

I tried telling them the most common ways of dealing with the Bursas but newbies simply cannot survive the encounter. They get spanked way too hard by the damage those things deal, the abilities they have lock them out of the game since they mostly don't have access to quick locks to cheese them, and even if they manage to somehow survive and maneuvre around them they will barely tickle them.

I spent the most of my time in that game after Bursas started spawning either reviving the poor fellas or going for the great Bursa hunt. Luckily i went in with the "wrong" setup (wanted to get some xp, meant to bring only my level 25 unformaed Staticor for killing, but forgot to swap my 6 forma Tonkor for the Prisma Gorgon i'm mastering) or i would've had a really hard time carrying them...

Bottom line is that removing them would be really unwise because:

A) if tweeked the right way they would be a fun change of pacing to Corpus missions

B) it would lock players out of getting Tempo Royale and Astral Twilight which are among the best and most beautiful stances in the game

That said, they should be given a balance pass.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Air_Support_Charges

 

These are your best friend. It disables alarms, meaning no more Bursas will spawn. I triggered a camera, initiated the lockdown and a Bursa spawn. I deployed this, killed the bursa and Ordis disabled the lockdown for me, NO HACKING REQUIRED. If you're triggering multiple cameras throughout a mission then you just need to get better at taking them out, I imagine most people know where every possible camera position is by now, shoot them instead of just bum rushing the levels.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Zilchy

[tnccs215]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Air_Support_Charges

These are your best friend. It disables alarms, meaning no more Bursas will spawn. I triggered a camera, initiated the lockdown and a Bursa spawn. I deployed this, killed the bursa and Ordis disabled the lockdown for me, NO HACKING REQUIRED. If you're triggering multiple cameras throughout a mission then you just need to get better at taking them out, I imagine most people know where every possible camera position is by now, shoot them instead of just bum rushing the levels.

Oh yes.

"Don't want to get your mission spoiled? Just farm, research, wait, farm and build this expensive piece of equipment (spaceship node), than farm more for the charges! Now, since they are only deployable once the alarms are triggered, you have to time yourself perfectly for them to have the desired effect! Also, forget the great stance drops! You're a NOOB, a SHAME, you DONT DESERVE NICE THINGS BEFORE PASSING THE MAGIC RITUAL AND TURNING INTO A VETERAN. Because its not like becoming a veteran is a gradual process, isn't it? not like you get to be a veteran by getting good equipment and experience, both of them we are locking behind unkillable, lazy enemies with a great concept and easy to optimize in order not to ruin the game for you!"

Yeah, looks like a great idea.

[RealPandemonium]

They key is that new players actually learn how to deal with the game's challenges (yes they exist, and they will grow in number) without veteran players, warframe powers, or an overtuned loadout carrying them through every problem.  

 

I, with my experience and gameplay skills (lol) am able to take down a Bursa 1 on 1 with some hassle while using novice-level gear.  Why shouldn't a newer player aspire to that?  Is it too much to expect novice players to learn Damage 2.0, get basic mods, and learn how to move, roll and shoot?  These are essential things to learn in Warframe.  They should be mandatory.  Too many players skip to "endgame" where their loadout plays the game for them, and remain useless whenever S#&$ hits the fan.  It may not be good for DE's wallet to some extent, but it's time we took the training wheels off of the star chart so that the coming generations of players shape up compared to the last few gens.

Edited February 15, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[-CdG-Zilchy]

@tnccs215: You're right I should be a useless lump like you instead, being disrespectful to others who offer ideas to help players. For the record I am no veteran I just learnt how to play. Now crawl back under your rock and consume yourself with your bitterness.

RealPandemonium I agree entirely. I started this game years ago now with Loki and nobody around to hold my hand. MR6 was considered high level and there was no power levelling. Too many players these days want the game served to them on a platter ie carried to the Jackal, then carried to Ceres and Draco. Case in point the comment in Recruit chat the other day. An MR4 asking for taxi to unlock Saturn because he can't do the Sortie until Saturn is unlocked... In other words, he would've been dead weight leeching away, skipping several planets of content and rushing through the game without ever learning how to play the game.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Zilchy

[NKDG]

Welcome to how I felt during the false profit event. Quanta vandal was worth it though.

From what I've seen from the few comments I read, these guys tend to be overleveled for the mission they're in, they take damage about as well as the frickin razorback, and their attacks are about as hard hitting as your standard ballista 20 levels higher.

Allnall, I'm pretty happy to see these guys back though, I love fighting them cause they're an actual challenge! It's fun! Not boring easy, and generally not actually that cheap as all their attacks are dodgeable. Granted, fighting 20 of em at a time is about as fun as it sounds, but whatever. I guess the spawn rate just need a tweak or two so newer guys and squishy guys don't get gangraped, maybe limit it to like 1-3 bursa spawns at a time?

Edited February 15, 2016 by NKDG

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just scale down their Armour and Health according to the level they appear on. Maybe slow down the spin speed of the Denial Bursa too, the other two seem to be perfectly fine. Most CC abilities work on them anyway but for the sake of the other frames, lower the turn speed slightly and they'll be perfect. I enjoy fighting them and the level 100 Denial Bursa that appeared in my solo Sortie was fun too. And yes I completed the mission.

[NKDG]

Just scale down their Armour and Health according to the level they appear on. Maybe slow down the spin speed of the Denial Bursa too, the other two seem to be perfectly fine. Most CC abilities work on them anyway but for the sake of the other frames, lower the turn speed slightly and they'll be perfect. I enjoy fighting them and the level 100 Denial Bursa that appeared in my solo Sortie was fun too. And yes I completed the mission.

You my friend, make sense. These guys are fun as hell to fight, although more than two or 3 at one time make a mission nigh unbeatable. Someone I saw said they got a few at once to spawn on a spy mission (I thought they came when alarms were set off?). I do think that shouldn't be, but oh well, still love these guys! Also, speedy limbo (vitality, sprint speed, {not armored agility} and drift mods) had no trouble takin one of these guys out on initial contact. Edited February 15, 2016 by NKDG

[homiedudemanguy]

cannon fodder is annoying. id like to see more bursas and hyenas honestly

[NKDG]

cannon fodder is annoying. id like to see more bursas and hyenas honestly

Hyenas are the bombards of the corpus. Not incredibly fond of them when BURSAS take more dmg and I have a special hatred for the freeze ones that have both a chill aura AND an ice wave...

[tnccs215]

@tnccs215: You're right I should be a useless lump like you instead, being disrespectful to others who offer ideas to help players. For the record I am no veteran I just learnt how to play. Now crawl back under your rock and consume yourself with your bitterness.

RealPandemonium I agree entirely. I started this game years ago now with Loki and nobody around to hold my hand. MR6 was considered high level and there was no power levelling. Too many players these days want the game served to them on a platter ie carried to the Jackal, then carried to Ceres and Draco. Case in point the comment in Recruit chat the other day. An MR4 asking for taxi to unlock Saturn because he can't do the Sortie until Saturn is unlocked... In other words, he would've been dead weight leeching away, skipping several planets of content and rushing through the game without ever learning how to play the game.

For the record, I already made a comment and proposed some changes a few pages back. And telling you you are wrong is useful.

The problem is that putting Bursas with a full kit of abilities, quick reflexes, and an incredible health intensifies that problem. If taxiing was useful, now its mandatory, otherwise it is impossible to Deal with the enemies.

One thing is having one very hard hitting, very resistent, but slow and predictable enemy in the mist of other mobs. Another is having fast, very hard hitting, very resistant Stun locking enemys when you, more than not having the skill, also don't have the equipment to deal with it. Most newbies that are still on Jupiter barely have a maxed Serration, much less everything else.

The only alternative this people have is to get a veteran on recruiting tab willing to carry them through the mission, until they get to Draco and other nodes that allow the farming exploitation this game demands in order to deal with this enemies.

If anything, it is counter productive.

You mention how you started playing years ago with no powerleving and no one to hold your hand. You also didn't have bursas, nullifiers, sapping ospreys, and probably had the armor ignoring weapons (if you were here before damage 2.0 came along). What you dealt with is nothing like what this newbies are dealing with.

If it wasn't for me helping her, my sister would have already quit in frustration because of enemies like Bursas. That is the problem. One bursa is barely tolerable by a newbie, much less a whole squad of them accompanied by other mobs that, due to the newbies low level, still are a threat.

Challenging=/=frustrating. If you want a challenge, make an enemy that tells you, everytime you die, "it was your fault, because my attacks are avoidable". Bursas aren't.

Not to mention how pretty much nothing in game says that the Liset's air support can remove the alarms, but that is a problem with warframes overall lack of explanation of ANYTHING (the wiki is mandatory in this game). However, and most of all, it only works on missions that have alarms. Sabotage, spy, exterminate, etc. But what about defense? What about survival? Interception? A newbie would still be forced to deal with this (to him/her) unbeatable, fatal enemy, without anyway of preventing its spawning.

Edited February 15, 2016 by tnccs215

[-CdG-Zilchy]

You my friend, make sense. These guys are fun as hell to fight, although more than two or 3 at one time make a mission nigh unbeatable. Someone I saw said they got a few at once to spawn on a spy mission (I thought they came when alarms were set off?). I do think that shouldn't be, but oh well, still love these guys! Also, speedy limbo (vitality, sprint speed, {not armored agility} and drift mods) had no trouble takin one of these guys out on initial contact.

Yeh I enjoy them and I've found Air Support Charges stops the constant spawns so dealing with one at a time really isn't a problem. I think it's the fact that new players can't actually kill them due to their health and armour, scale that down and they're just a great challenge to add to the mission.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

For the record, I already made a comment and proposed some changes a few pages back. And telling you you are wrong is useful.

The problem is that putting Bursas with a full kit of abilities, quick reflexes, and an incredible health intensifies that problem. If taxiing was useful, now its mandatory, otherwise it is impossible to Deal with the enemies.

One thing is having one very hard hitting, very resistent, but slow and predictable enemy in the mist of other mobs. Another is having fast, very hard hitting, very resistant Stun locking enemys when you, more than not having the skill, also don't have the equipment to deal with it. Most newbies that are still on Jupiter barely have a maxed Serration, much less everything else.

The only alternative this people have is to get a veteran on recruiting tab willing to carry them through the mission, until they get to Draco and other nodes that allow the farming exploitation this game demands in order to deal with this enemies.

If anything, it is counter productive.

You mention how you started playing years ago with no powerleving and no one to hold your hand. You also didn't have bursas, nullifiers, sapping ospreys, and probably had the armor ignoring weapons (if you were here before damage 2.0 came along). What you dealt with is nothing like what this newbies are dealing with.

If it wasn't for me helping her, my sister would have already quit in frustration because of enemies like Bursas. That is the problem. One bursa is barely tolerable by a newbie, much less a whole squad of them accompanied by other mobs that, due to the newbies low level, still are a threat.

Challenging=/=frustrating. If you want a challenge, make an enemy that tells you, everytime you die, "it was your fault, because my attacks are avoidable". Bursas aren't.

Not to mention how pretty much nothing in game says that the Liset's air support can remove the alarms, but that is a problem with warframes overall lack of explanation of ANYTHING (the wiki is mandatory in this game). However, and most of all, it only works on missions that have alarms. Sabotage, spy, exterminate, etc. But what about defense? What about survival? Interception? A newbie would still be forced to deal with this (to him/her) unbeatable, fatal enemy, without anyway of preventing its spawning.

Ok it appears I've misjudged you slightly but I'm sure you can agree that your initlal reply to me was over the top sarcastic. But let's talk challenge because currently, there's very little of it in Warframe, yet along comes a tough opponent and everybody complains. The irony of this is that before this everyone complained that there's no challenge in the game, endless damage sponges are boring blah blah blah. Now along comes a revamped enemy that offers players an extra layer of difficulty and everybody loses their mind. The truth of it is that Warframe is a very easy game compared to a lot of the games out there, try Dark Souls for instance. Players are getting too soft and most of the new players are skipping the majority of content and rushing through the game, that a unit finally exists that can slow this down is a good thing. Just to experience it I went back and played some of the earlier Corpus missions(Mars) without Air Support, without OP weaponry and without an OP DPS frame. I still had only slight problems killing Bursa's and hacking the 1st one you kill takes a lot of the pressure off. I will agree that ciphers are handy(though cheap to obtain) but the early level ciphers are so quick to do that stopping the alarms isn't difficult.

 

Also what I neglected to tell you before is that I quit Warframe for over 2 years(studies) and only rejoined 6 months ago. I was MR4 when I left, I'm MR18 now and I've done all that under the new damage system so it can't be that hard. Paying attention to other players and not just playing Draco is all it takes. What I will agree with you on is that not enough is clearly explained, that's always been a problem and is unlikely to go away anytime soon.

[Eminem2420]

Just another reason to avoid Corpus missions. I didn't like them before, and I sure don't like them now. I don't like instantly dying without a chance to defend myself. That is not a challenge, that's just cheesy BS.

[Thebel]

So when I think about it don't the current spawn mechanics encourage room nuking or the press 4 to win life?

Currently they only spawn when the alarms are on, for that to happen a unit has to reach a terminal to activate it. So the best way to counter that is to kill everything as such nuking whole rooms again becomes the best way to deal with it.

Yes you could use invisibility but that's a different kind of cheesy tactic.

[Misgenesis]

Are you kidding? I killed them no problems, what were you using? Air Support charges seems to limit their spawning.

It was the one with physical damage enhancement, i had a Tigris modded for toxin/magnetic and a VayMare for corrosive/fire.

 

Tigris was utterly useless and it took several mags to bring one down with VayMare.

 

Went to Triton after that. At the 1000 mark they had more HP than any other unit, more than tech units and combas.

[SnakeWildlife]

Video response:

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Mate if you made that video you're officially awesome :) this is what I'm saying, the Bursa's are not a problem, they're just an added layer of versatility for the mission.

It was the one with physical damage enhancement, i had a Tigris modded for toxin/magnetic and a VayMare for corrosive/fire.

Tigris was utterly useless and it took several mags to bring one down with VayMare.

Went to Triton after that. At the 1000 mark they had more HP than any other unit, more than tech units and combas.

Well there's your main problem my friend, they seem to be weak to Radiation damage, I used an Excalibur to Radial Blind and then 2 shots from Sancti Tigris destroyed it.

[SnakeWildlife]

Yeah i made it.  Im just sick of this -.- topic after topic of "Nerf the game so can win if we stand still" crap. This isnt even hard! Far from it.

[Misgenesis]

Well there's your main problem my friend, they seem to be weak to Radiation damage, I used an Excalibur to Radial Blind and then 2 shots from Sancti Tigris destroyed it.

Thats not my point anyway. I want consistency between enemies in their factions. Bursas have ridiculous HP compared to other corpus.

 

Theres no reason for that either since their gimmick is damage immunity from the front. They dont need insane HP scaling on top of that.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Misgenesis

[SnakeWildlife]

Thats not my point anyway. I want consistency between enemies in their factions. Bursas have ridiculous HP compared to other corpus.

 

Theres no reason for that either since their gimmick is damage immunity from the front. They dont need insane HP scaling on top of that.

 

shoot the control panel on their back -.- they have only a little amount of hp.....have you even tried?!

 

at this point im going with No.

[Misgenesis]

shoot the control panel on their back -.- they have only a little amount of hp.....have you even tried?!

 

at this point im going with No.

Read my post again.

[SnakeWildlife]

Read my post again.

 

Watch my video again.

[DrFail]

Video response:

 

 

 

Edgy commentary on massive cc frames aside, Those bursas are interestingly passive even when not status'd. When I fought them they did a lot more chaining of moves and actively run at me while shooting, and behaved almost nothing like those. They would also constantly shift around and never really stood still. Is that truly solo or are you just by yourself as a client in a multiplayer mission? I'm wondering if they behave differently based on if you're client or host? Does their AI maybe break somewhat after having a CC ability used on them? 

 

I'm really interested in this.

Edited February 15, 2016 by DrFail