Information regarding EBlade and Naramon Shadow Step

[Epsik-kun]

Threads concerning Exalted Blade being overpowered tend to pop up every other day. There are people who agree with this, there are ones who disagree. In my personal opinion, the fact that EBlade one-shots stuff on Mercury can't be used for "balancing" intentions.

Also, we have a huge thread discussing whether Shadow Step is overpowered or not.

What I am trying to do here, is not to prove any points myself, but to give you an example of when and how both EBlade and Shadow Step fall off - it will be for you to decide, should you consider it OP or is it fine as it is.

Spoiler

 

 

[phoenix1992]

Valky also does abuse Shadowstep. And Wu kong.

But in the end... does it matter? Current shadowstep, steps us the game for all melee. Marudai also provides hideous buff, just use it instead of nerf it. (I do not use Exca, Valky, Wu kong more than 1-2 times a week). I mean look at any frame that can provide CC and drops shadowstep - Nova is even more dangerous, same with Frost, Ember, Saryn and so on. It is BS to ask to nerf something because people are narrow minded (hue). 
Here you an an "proof"

Ember and Exca, both with Shadowstep  (Flavored Tears is exca, if you can't see it for his melee kills), on t3 survival 40 min run. It does not matter in the long run.

[Hellmaker2004]

Shadow Step is indeed overpowered, it almost remove all pressure the Tenno has on them. Maybe in the future depending on how enemies will react to stealth it will be "balanced" But in its current form it is way to strong with the opponents we have.

 

And for Exalted Blade, i don't see the problem. i doubt we are supposed to fight level 241 ish mobs but it does not feel weak at all. Or that it "falls off" in the damage department. There are plenty of damage frames that fall of way earlier than level 241 mobs so compared to others it may be to high, yet Exalted blade is not the only "ability" and if anything a Valkyre is going to "fall off" even later.

 

The biggest problem i've always seen in Warframe is the difference between what people call meta and mastery fodder weapons. In a perfect world and hopefully in a future the difference between a meta gun and a mastery fodder is going to be about 10% maximum as a difference, and everything else is aesthetic and behavior of the gun / ability's.

 

Now i am not naive, there will always be a meta. But in the current form the difference is just way to massive.

[EmptyDevil]

Personally think the energy waves shouldn't trigger Shadow Step. Hysteria shouldn't allow Shadow Step to function at all for obvious reasons.

[phoenix1992]

6 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Personally think the energy waves shouldn't trigger Shadow Step. Hysteria shouldn't allow Shadow Step to function at all for obvious reasons.

That would still leave the question for Marudai and the increased critical chance. 

[EmptyDevil]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

That would still leave the question for Marudai and the increased critical chance. 

Not really. Increased critical chance and invisibility are not comparable, since one can completely remove enemy threat indefinitely.

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, EmptyDevil said:

Not really. Increased critical chance and invisibility are not comparable, since one can completely remove enemy threat indefinitely.

As I already stated - I won't care/cry if they get the axe. The question is how deep will they get it? If you turn off focus while using such kind of skills, won't it be better to shut if off completely? After all, exalted blade does hit red crits and even more damage with that percs(same for kitty cat and monkey san), while other frames can't use them to such extend.

[EmptyDevil]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

As I already stated - I won't care/cry if they get the axe. The question is how deep will they get it? If you turn off focus while using such kind of skills, won't it be better to shut if off completely? After all, exalted blade does hit red crits and even more damage with that percs(same for kitty cat and monkey san), while other frames can't use them to such extend.

It wouldn't be better to completely disable all Focus effects. Some of those effects aren't OP and all of them shouldn't be penalized for one effect. It would be like how some Shadow Debt mods don't work for Exalted Blade and Hysteria.

[Inmemoratus]

Something is OP if it overshadows other options and we get a situation where players feel forced to use it.

I haven't seen a good argument that Shadow Step does this, and I still haven't seen anyone using it in game. You'd think if it really was that OP it would be more popular.

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, Inmemoratus said:

Something is OP if it overshadows other options and we get a situation where players feel forced to use it.

Well nobody shoved Exca down our throats, but here we are "loving" him.  With or without Shadowstep, he hits like an truck full of bro beers.

[phoenix1992]

 
 

Edited February 23, 2016 by phoenix1992
This is not supposed to be here. No more open tabs. Still, enjoy the gif.

[Inmemoratus]

6 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Well nobody shoved Exca down our throats, but here we are "loving" him.  With or without Shadowstep, he hits like an truck full of bro beers.

Sure, I play him sometimes because he deals a lot of damage and has great CC. But to me he's more of a general choice for when I don't have something specialized for the particular task I'm doing. Usually there's another frame that fits the particular mission I want to do better than Excalibur.

For example on sortie defense I bring Limbo and I just keep the NPC banished, which I believe is the most guaranteed way to defend him.

Sometimes I pick Rhino instead of Excalibur when I just want something all-around generally good because his team buff is great and he's tankier. His CC is almost as good, it does the job.

I don't really care about EB because I have strong weapons so any frame I play I'll be good on damage.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[AKKILLA]

This is becoming Frustrating, why did DE return Forums for. I hope these forums get taken down again, Nerf threads only ruin my day and make me disappointed. OP and community should know that Any Frame can benefit from Shadow Step not just Excals EBlade. OP what Youre doing is feeding fuel to the Nerf junkies to post more none sense and offer more reasons to Nerf. 

 

Nerfs are nothing but set backs to this game ppl wake up and realize, when will the Nerf suggestions end? Nerfs happen to later ask for Buffs. Just know this, dont come back here asking for Buffs after your comments affected something Great. Deal with it later when You see what You destroyed

[Epsik-kun]

15 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

Nerf threads

16 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

OP

Do you even read?

[Inmemoratus]

Just now, Epsik-kun said:

Do you even read?

Just curious, if you weren't intending to imply that it's OP or there's some kind of problem with it, why did you bring it up for discussion?

[Magneu]

21 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

This is becoming Frustrating, why did DE return Forums for. I hope these forums get taken down again, Nerf threads only ruin my day and make me disappointed. OP and community should know that Any Frame can benefit from Shadow Step not just Excals EBlade. OP what Youre doing is feeding fuel to the Nerf junkies to post more none sense and offer more reasons to Nerf. 

 

Nerfs are nothing but set backs to this game ppl wake up and realize, when will the Nerf suggestions end? Nerfs happen to later ask for Buffs. Just know this, dont come back here asking for Buffs after your comments affected something Great. Deal with it later when You see what You destroyed

Balance between options is what ultimately is needed in the long run, to avoid a hideously bloated meta of top tier frames/weapons, and everything else being trash. 

 

The problem isn't that Excal is powerful, and even more so with Shadow Step. The problem is that he completely overshadows almost any other options, while disabling almost every possible threat against himself (if you crit, you're safe basically). If you can show me another frame doing a 100 minute T4S run solo, I'll reconsider my opinion. As is, Excal is simply a walking Flutcus that deals insane damage, unlimited punchthrough, drains almost no energy, and can effectively remove himself from harms way completely. 

[Inmemoratus]

6 minutes ago, Magneu said:

Balance between options is what ultimately is needed in the long run, to avoid a hideously bloated meta of top tier frames/weapons, and everything else being trash. 

 

The problem isn't that Excal is powerful, and even more so with Shadow Step. The problem is that he completely overshadows almost any other options, while disabling almost every possible threat against himself (if you crit, you're safe basically). If you can show me another frame doing a 100 minute T4S run solo, I'll reconsider my opinion. As is, Excal is simply a walking Flutcus that deals insane damage, unlimited punchthrough, drains almost no energy, and can effectively remove himself from harms way completely. 

Can I assume you mean other than Valkyr?

Also, how does 100 minute T4 survival matter? Why do you see it as a measuring stick for balance?

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Magneu]

Just now, Inmemoratus said:

Can I assume you mean other than Valkyr?

Valkyr is a whole other can of worms that proponents of get incredibly defensive when you mention tweaking her. While she has amazing damage in close range, I'd say she only needs a change from god mode to an actual berserker mode, and a toning down of the slide attack; one-shotting level 200 heavies while being invincible is a bit over the top.

Honestly though, it's more annoying when an Excal joins the squad, as the constant "schwing schwing schwing" of them swinging at nothing gets incredibly annoying.

[Inmemoratus]

10 minutes ago, Magneu said:

Valkyr is a whole other can of worms that proponents of get incredibly defensive when you mention tweaking her. While she has amazing damage in close range, I'd say she only needs a change from god mode to an actual berserker mode, and a toning down of the slide attack; one-shotting level 200 heavies while being invincible is a bit over the top.

Honestly though, it's more annoying when an Excal joins the squad, as the constant "schwing schwing schwing" of them swinging at nothing gets incredibly annoying.

And it's not annoying to see 3 people with synoid simulor every single sortie spamming it mindlessly?

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, Inmemoratus said:

Just curious, if you weren't intending to imply that it's OP or there's some kind of problem with it, why did you bring it up for discussion?

I think, I pretty clearly and explicitly stated it all in the OP. I did not made any points there myself. I just stated a clear information for you people to think about. Not "Excaliburs swoosh-swoosh everything on mah Exterminate missions, nerf them now", not "whoa I can totally stay invisible in Simulacrum while whacking lvl 30 Corrupted Heavy Gunner with my unranked Zorens, nerf that yesterday", but an actual example what Shadow Step Excalibur can and can't do. These 100 minutes are close to a mathematical limit of what EBlade Excalibur can do in solo T4S. I even think, that making a full Power Strength build, that will rely only Shadow Step for survival won't push it much further. The only way of continuing it that I can see is using a dagger with Covert Lethality and just completely stopping to use EBlade at some point.

For instance, I myself, do not consider either EBlade or Shadow Step "overpowered". Strong, yes. EBlade might use some severe design changes, but not due to being "OP".

With Excalibur, I can solo T4S over a hour without using Naramon at all. Shadow Step adds up to 40 minutes to this time, while last 20 of them are absurdly tough, and I can't guarantee I will be able to reliably pull it off again. Also, Shadow Step only will have such strong effect on explicitly melee solo T4S, because of two main factors: lack of other targets for enemies to attack and an absurd x3 damage multiplier they have. Make it not T4 and you won't actually "need" Shadow Step on most frames, because your damage will fall off much faster than your defences will. 

Same goes for EBlade. It is a very strong weapon indeed. However I can perform on pair with various Excaliburs I meet in various endless missions while I am using melee Nova or Nyx, just because I know how to build my weapon, frame and how to use them. Just wave-spam EBlade isn't even strong. What makes it actually strong and a tier above any other weapon (I say even on pair with Hysteria) is close-up damage potential and spin blind.

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, Inmemoratus said:

And it's not annoying to see 3 people with synoid simulor every single sortie spamming it mindlessly?

Yet another can of worms, that personally is even more annoying and game balance disrupting. Slap in a Mirage and the tile clear/perma stun goes through the roof. Only thing I consider more broken is the Tonkor, but we have so many people with 99% weapon time on that weapon that I think DE is hesitant to re-balance it (and yes, it is absurdly broken. It destroys every other weapon in damage potential, AOE damage, ease of crafting, with only minor ease of use issues (and it doesn't even self damage!). However, that's besides the point; please don't red herring the conversation.

 

Is Excal OP? Some say yes, while I say that he's too brain-dead to use with EB. The skill encourages mindless spam through doors to get results. I don't mind the kill stealing, as half the badly-built Excals I ever meet are either getting downed at 40 minutes or stop doing damage because they built pure physical damage; the flashy waves are what grinds my gears.

 

If someone wants to build full Naramon/Excal assassin, all power to em. Waves should be toned down a tad in both range and punchthrough to stop the unhealthy swing fest we have going on right now. Overall, it's an amazingly powerful combination that just needs minor tweaks to be within the realm of balance the game needs. 

[EinheriarJudith]

4 hours ago, Magneu said:

Only thing I consider more broken is the Tonkor, but we have so many people with 99% weapon time on that weapon that I think DE is hesitant to re-balance it (and yes, it is absurdly broken. It destroys every other weapon in damage potential, AOE damage, ease of crafting, with only minor ease of use issues (and it doesn't even self damage!). However, that's besides the point; please don't red herring the conversation.

All DE needs to do here is make it self damage. its popularity will drop instantly.

[dodyouserious]

not op to me

[rawr1254]

Imo people should stop focusing on EB and complain more about RJ being abused in Draco :\

[StonedMakak]

As per intention of the OP, I'll refrain from arguing over balance/imbalance in regard to numbers. But I do wonder how this obsession with endless modes affects the game balance debate. Okay, so an EB Excal falls off after, give-or-take, 100 minutes in T4. And? Absolutely everything will fall off at some point, does that mean that everything is fine as is? Obviously not, it matters WHEN exactly it falls off. And so, we arrive at the question: when should it fall off? Hmm, tough one right? Apart from speculation, we have no idea. DE is not in a hurry to gives us anything solid, sure, they throw around statements about intending the game to be balanced around some specific level, but nothing ever follows those statements. That's because they know they cornered themselves by giving players so much power, and taking it away for the sake of balance can alienate a large portion of the community. 

IMHO, the "I lasted X in T4, it's fine/OP/UP" was never a very convincing argument. The disparity between different types of content is too big for that. I personally believe that mechanics should be the deciding factor in every balancing debate. From that perspective both EB and SS are removing mechanics form the game with absolutely no trade-off. EB is supposedly a melee weapon, but is really a gun, with infinite punch-through that happens to melee at the same time it shoots. Just hide behind a box and slash away, like a true swordsman. Shadow Step makes you ghost to enemy AI with, again, no trade-off. I remember a time where there were cheat codes to enable the exact same effect. Look at Ivara's invisibility - constant movement penalty, breaks when using non-silent weapons. Mechanical drawbacks to balance the skills are the way to go. I'd be absolutely fine if EB/SS could allow one to last 200 min in T4, while not trivializing rest of the content thanks to their cheat-like mechanics.

 

TL;DR: Balancing should be done through the use of mechanical drawbacks/trade-offs then followed by numbers adjustment if necessary. Endurance runs in endless modes are just gearcheck, they focus predominantly on the numbers thus cannot be considered as ultimate arguments when debating balance. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by tisdfogg