I think people are being a bit too harsh on Saryn

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

You aware that the post I quoted was talking about how "bad" her 4 is?

That post was...kind of hard for me to read to be honest. Anyway, i edited my previous post for better clarification. Was referring to your statement.

[Bibliothekar]

1 hour ago, (PS4)martin576 said:

Yday I went to the Grineer sortie with Saryn and viral Torid. Man, she was very bad. Always out of energy because of 2-1-4, still very low damage. This frame is dead.

40 minutes ago, Dextral said:

she doesn't compete at high damage at all anymore without team support(ev)

But that's the case with any frame in Sorties (only exception being Mag against Corpus, or invisible frames for Spy). Because you're up against lvl 120 enemies while scaling still hasn't been fixed. This problem is not unique to Saryn, so you can't argue that this is her fault.

[----Fenrir----]

1 minute ago, Bibliothekar said:

But that's the case with any frame in Sorties (only exception being Mag against Corpus, or invisible frames for Spy). Because you're up against lvl 120 enemies while scaling still hasn't been fixed. This problem is not unique to Saryn, so you can't argue that this is her fault.

Nope, that is not true at all. It's not hard to solo Mobile Defense Missions with either Frost, Loki, or Mirage. Mirage and Loki can solo sortie Defense missions as well. Same with interceptions. And Excalibur and Valkyr have no trouble doing sortie survivals solo. Rhino and Chroma can do it too.

Saryn is just weak. She needs a team but no team needs her.

[TychusMechanicus]

1 hour ago, (PS4)martin576 said:

Yday I went to the Grineer sortie with Saryn and viral Torid. Man, she was very bad. Always out of energy because of 2-1-4, still very low damage. This frame is dead.

Yep, very vague, so useful... Leech eximii? Energy reduction?

There are a million reasons why you run out of energy... In my experience I was swimming in energy with a level 19 Saryn in Eris dark sector survival solo survival. Without triggering my Zenurik passive and my Corrosive Projection aura isn't an energy booster either. I just kept on popping those spores with Toxic Lash and spamming all my abilities.

 

 

I think the main reason people think she was nerfed is because the glitch that meant that Miasma saw an exponential damage gain once you knocked the duration below 1s is gone. A good build of Saryn meant you could do over 13k corrosive damage without taking a dip from 75% efficiency.

Now this is gone, but you gained a lot of useful tricks:

• An infinite spam of viral and toxin procs? -Check!
• Energy regain and elemental toxin damage boost to melee attacks? -Check!
• Get rid of any procs affecting you and shedding some aggro? -Check!
• And on top of that you have an ult that deals damage over time, staggers and if you use it on crowds you already softened up with attacks you can even do triple damage? -CHECK!

Wow, such nerf...

Now Saryn isn't a nuke but deals a LOT MORE damage over time than ever before and her kit falls off a lot later than previously.

The only point where I think Saryn could be called worse than before is the fact that it is hard to melee, parkour 2.0 and cast all four abilities at once. At least I can feel my hands seriously tiring after an hour of playing her new kit. 

 

Every other complaint feels like an excuse to whine that there is hardly any option left besides Ash for a press 4 to win frame. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Vannell]

To be honest, if I ever play Saryn, I'd rather use her other abilities than pressing 4 everytime.

[hanross]

5 minutes ago, TychusMechanicus said:

 

Now Saryn isn't a nuke but deals a LOT MORE damage over time than ever before and her kit falls off a lot later than previously.

 

yeah very much damage she is doing after she die several times 

[IceColdHawk]

4 minutes ago, TychusMechanicus said:

A good build of Saryn meant you could do over 13k corrosive damage without taking a dip from 75% efficiency.

Now is the question, 13k damage in what time? Saryn ult maybe deals more total damage than before, but i hope you are aware that the new one ticks a specific part of it's total damage each second thus making the actual DPS worse than before.

1 minute ago, Vannell said:

To be honest, if I ever play Saryn, I'd rather use her other abilities than pressing 4 everytime.

This. And even that isn't really standing out compared to other frames.

[DeadPrime]

How the hell is Saryn weak??? Only her 1 can deal half the health of an enemy level 9999999 wich frame can do that with only One Power?

She is the most funny warframe u can have here. So many builds and each so much differente than the other. She has the most powerfull dmg status prockiage skill ( her spores ) wich do a little of stun btw and u guys still Can't see her with the right perspective. She has one of the best escapes and one of the highest dmg melee skills. Her 3 with a good build can block 80% of the dmg alone without the base block of her melee weap and can do almost 2x the dmg with her melee. The other day i did 109k with 1 hit using the Nikana Prime ( not the highest base dmg melee weap ). Her spore build his so but so strong. Have u ever seen one Good Saryn working with it? It is just godlike. And what are u guys talking about? Ignis is Required? Hikouu too? What? U only need to aim at a Big &#! Spore and then u have a party of spores on one single room. Her full spore build makes so that the spores have a range of 40m and u can cast it 150m away from an enemy. Tell me that ain't just some fu**** up skill. U can take any weapon as long as u are good with it. I mean it is easier to hit Spores than the heads of the enemies... jeez. U guys still are clearly Unexperienced with her... Believe me! I had 23% play rate with saryn so I know how good she was. ( mr21 here with 1k+ hours played ). The same goes to banshee. Wich warframe can make u do 3m+ dmg with only one skill? Camon guys... start "studying" a little more alright? Iam a Saryn Main and I am very happy with here right now. Instead of 1 single build and boring &#! play style u have 3 completelly different and funny builds to use. I don't need to say anything more. To the ones that will come here and say that Iam Wrong. Well, clearly u haven't played with her enough time yet.

[Bibliothekar]

13 minutes ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Nope, that is not true at all. It's not hard to solo Mobile Defense Missions with either Frost, Loki, or Mirage. Mirage and Loki can solo sortie Defense missions as well. Same with interceptions.

Yeah, but that's hard CC, you're not actively trying to kill the enemy. Just keeping them busy long enough for the timer to run out.

[Attel_Malagate]

To put it simply, and I only speak to myself, but damage dealing frames are just a big joke to me, they are either obliteration everything bellow lv 20 (Ussein Bolt Embers, nukes Saryns, exalted blade Excals,....) or flat out useless at high level, I'd rather have a consistent effect (heal, damage reduction, CC, damage boost) than any amount of damage, we have 3 weapons for a reason, I don't see why I would sacrify my only source of CC/heal/damage reduction/boost to a 4th way of dealing damage that will interfere with the 3 others anyway, it looks to redundant to me, but that's just my opinion.

[TychusMechanicus]

9 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

-snip-

Now is the question, 13k damage in what time? Saryn ult maybe deals more total damage than before, but i hope you are aware that the new one ticks a specific part of it's total damage each second thus making the actual DPS worse than before.

-snip-

This. And even that isn't really standing out compared to other frames.

My post was exactly about not just using her ultimate. Old Saryn - half a second for 13k corrosive vs new Saryn - constant 50% hp debuff and consistent DoT at the cost of carpal tunnel*. She basically does what Nova does... Nova gives you double damage and slows/speeds up enemy units, Saryn halves their health and softens them up constantly instead of offering CC.

(Only drag in AMD if you actually use it yourself. I love that skill and I love Nova to hell and back but I rarely see anyone actually AMD bombing with her. Also, both frames' abilities are curbstomped by Nullifiers like any other frame's so that is not a valid argument.)

 

Anyone saying that she is nerfed compared to her old state never really understood how she worked and why she worked 'so well' nor tried nuking level 100 enemies with her. 
The only reason I used her like that in the past is because of the unbearable Ash player spam in random pugs who leaned back in their chairs staring at the Vomit Cam ^TM and patting their backs saying that they are the best players. It was satisfying killing stuff after Bladestorm highlighted them but before it actually killed them.




*On the notion of carpal tunnel: If her 1^st ability could be buffed to be even softer targeted with a slightly larger spore spread radius. Also speed up her 1^st and 3^rd ability's casting times. Just to give some actual feedback on her.

[KirukaChan]

I still like playing Saryn to buff allies with her Spores Augment (her and Oberon make the best use of first power buff augments since they can't really miss). And Toxic Lash is quite useful now, not to mention how Molt can be made to punish enemies a lot harder by putting Spores on it. The only thing I really used Miasma for before was attacking enemies behind walls using Enemy Radar to aim, or if I was completely surrounded.

I never minmaxed for minimum duration before because I don't want to play a Frame if I'm only going to use one ability.

[SquidTheSid]

>  In no way am I saying she's god tier, but also in no way am I saying she's trash.

I highly disagree. I think she's one of the worst frames in the game

>   This argument seems invalid to me because she couldn't even do that before the rework, what makes this any different?  

Rework. I mean, there's a reason why Saryn's overhaul is called a rework. Her skill set needed changing because it was extremely niche. But anyway, her old Miasma used to do significantly more damage if modded for negative duration (even in an ideal case with new Miasma) and could be spammed to decently deal with mid-high level enemies.  But yeah, it's especially worse this time around because you need to combo abilities and Miasma is worse now than it was before the rework and offers very little utility to make up for that.

>  Yes, she still has problems, but they aren't problems that are so bad that you can't use her at all.

I'd place her in the same position of Nezha. Is she fundamentally broken to the point where you can't play her? No. Is there any reason why you'd ever want to bring her on a team over another much better frame like Rhino, Ash, or Excalibur outside of fashion-frame/enjoyment? No, not really. Mass Viral procs are nice, but I can replicate that (although not as efficiently) with my Viral Ignis and get hard lock-down instead. 

>  I've been using a tanky debuff build, making use of regenerative molt (that mod is incredible, I love it) 

Good mod, yes. But it should be baseline functionality given how much of a mess Saryn 2.0 is to mod for. 

 

>  level 105 heavy gunner and yelling and screaming at how little she did to it, and tbh, even with the old saryn, you were never going to flat out kill that heavy gunner with miasma.

Ash and Excalibur can easily clear up level 105 enemies without nearly as much dedication to combos. Her skill set should be at least be able to keep up with those frames given how much investment her combo takes (whereas Ash is press 4 and Excal is press 2 then 4). 

 

>  At least with the new saryn, her other abilities become of some use, and aren't just buttons that you never press.

By some use, you mean very highly situational and generally not worth using? See Toxic Lash since Saryn is not a good melee frame (or at least, Toxin Lash does not provide enough of a buff to make her melee viable in higher levels like Wukong, Excal, Valkyr, Chroma, Rhino, etc.). 

 

Don't get me wrong, I like comboing abilities and I think new Saryn is a lot of fun, but the payoff from her abilities given the amount of work expected from the player is pitiful. Miasma should be able to outright kill most higher level enemies (say level 70) or at the very least, permanently strip off their armor. Toxic Lash is the only melee buff in the game that is useless outside of melee (Volt's Speed increases movement speed, Valkyr's War Cry increases armor and slows enemies, etc.) and it doesn't affect teammates. If enemies so much as fart in the general direction of Molt in late game, it instantly dies. 

 

Also, Saryn is not designed to be a support frame. If she was, her kit wouldn't so heavily revolve around Miasma. Also, mass Viral procs are less useful than Ivara's pocket invisibility, Loki's disables and clutch teleports (especially with augment),  or Trinity's Blessing. 

 

I'm not saying we should axe her kit, but every single ability (except maybe Spore) needs to be buffed substantially to the point where it's not "co-dependent" on other abilities to be useful. 

e.g. Molt has Saryn's current defensive stats, has a temporary invulnerability period, and a built-in Regenerative Molt. Toxic Lash, in a reasonably large-sized aura, provides a more substantial melee damage buff (say, 75%), increased range of melee weapons (say 100%), boosts Saryn's mobility (say +0.2 to Parkour speed), provides more energy on Spore pops for her (say 5 energy per Spore), and some sort of defensive buff (either a flat damage reduction of 40% or adding lifesteal to Spore pops and melee attacks). Finally, Miasma should outright kill mid-high level enemies (70-80) with a full combo, or permanently remove their armor with a barrage of Corrosive Procs. 

 

Boom, Saryn's kit is still the same functionally, but she's significantly better and each ability allows her options to play in a specific playstyle. 

Big list o' changes I made on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/46y52a/saryn_20_changes_return_of_the_corrosive_queen/?sort=new

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by SquidTheSid
support

[Reifnir]

At this time I am genuinely baffled at how some people *want* Saryn to stay bad.

Every time someone posts constructive feedback and ideas to improve her lackluster abilities, they start screeching "Saryn is too good already, look at me, popping spores on an enemy who's all covered in Banshee's Sonar procs!" 

Yeah, so you can proc spores for some damage (ideally, using the rest of your team as a crutch). Big surprise here, considering how many frames offer much more in terms of team synergy.

And how is "Spam 1 all day" ANY better than spam 4 (which was quite bad, tbh)? 

Her entire kit needs work (and tons of good ideas for Molt, Lash and Miasma have been suggested). Hek, turn her into a pure CC frame with staggers, armor melt and slows/roots for all I care - even that would be better than the current state which leaves her spitting toxic saliva until your "1" button breaks.

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by Reifnir

[TychusMechanicus]

27 minutes ago, SquidTheSid said:

-snip-

Wow, big one. 

I actually like some notions in this!

-Saryn is not the worst by far. I disagree.

-A buff to her kit may be in order. I also feel that her kit requires a lot of work to pay off. I DO like the reward her kit gives but it takes a bit too much work/carpal tunnel indeed.

-Level 105 heavy gunner is an easy target.

• Ash: press 4? Yes, Ash is problematic and people still want that cheesecake to be buffed. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) But press 3, use melee finisher.
• Excal: press 2, no need for the ult. Finishers toast anything.
• Ivara: Sleep arrow, see above
• Equinox: press night form 2, see above
• Random frame that triggers finisher: trigger finisher, see above
• etc...

What I wanted to point out is that taking out a single level 105 gunner is cakewalk with anything once you can mod weapons/frames. Not really a good baseline for comparison.

- Buffing her abilities:

• Molt buff: yes please. 4 sec invulnerability phase like Iron Skin/Snow Globe? Sounds good! More base health is also nice to have.
• Toxic lash buff: too much. 2 energy per spore is fine: Enemies start to have multiple spores on them really soon and in the end you'll end up with more energy while meleeing then before you cast 1+3 even with 2 energy per spore. 
  More melee damage is not needed that much, combo stacking and a good melee weapon solves that part.
  Added lifesteal for the duration of Toxic Lash is a neat idea, however, Molt should not have built in Regenerative Molt then. This should be either that or this one.
  +100% reach, buffing allies paired with the current guaranteed toxin proc and spore popping with +2 energy per spore with some extra toxin damage? I like the sound of that!
• Miasma buff: killing level 70-80 enemies in full ability stacking? Too much.
  We should add a longer lasting stagger, I like the armor melting idea as well and some base damage buff.
  We could also factor in power duration like this: The more duration you use the faster each instance of damage tick happens and the longer it staggers and the longer it lasts.
  There, Miasma is now faster and deals more damage. Toy around with duration and tick frequency and base damage and you can eliminate the need for using too many strength mods to mod for all 4 aspects to make a good Saryn build. 

 

I still think Saryn is good, could be just a little better - bit more CC and a bit more user friendly. But she is far from being trash and quite close to a good frame.

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by TychusMechanicus
Edited for clarity.

[DeadPrime]

1 minute ago, Reifnir said:

But how does "Spam 1 all day" ANY better than spam 4 (which was quite bad, tbh)? 

Her entire kit needs work (and tons of good ideas for Molt, Lash and Miasma have been suggested). Hek, turn her into a pure CC frame with staggers, armor melt and slows/roots for all I care - even that would be better than the current state which leaves her spitting toxic saliva until your "1" button breaks.

She does need some work but she ain't the worst frame of all time in space. When ppl talk about her 1 they are talking about a single build. The best part of her rework now is that you can have very different builds deppending on your play style and she will allways be funny to play. You like mellee? Build her 3. You like support? Dam go range and str for her 1. You like to be an activelly spammable abilities "mage"? Go for an all around little eff build with rage and reg. molt and u will do just fine.

I +1 with what Squid said. It would make her so much viable to the end game using her signature skill "miasma". And it would even be more funny I agree. I mean I do miss those days when I could kill any1 with her 4. Right now i can't rlly do it as I used to and cause of that every1 is saying that she is a bad frame and that is hurting me so much Jeez. I love her so much that i have made 4 builds for her. the 4th one is a build around her 4 for draco. with ev u can still kill 1k+ enemies on the 1st round of draco with her 4.

23 minutes ago, SquidTheSid said:

Boom, Saryn's kit is still the same functionally, but she's significantly better and each ability allows her options to play in a specific playstyle. 

Big list o' changes I made on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/46y52a/saryn_20_changes_return_of_the_corrosive_queen/?sort=new

I would like you to make a Topic with some kind of voting system where we could all vote "yes" for those changes. It would bring her back on her SpottLight as the Miasma Gurl and every1 would stop saying that she is Trash cause Iam tired of trying to "teach" others that she is still good in a different way ( and yes she is ).

[ClinkzEastwood]

14 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

 

And how is "Spam 1 all day" ANY better than spam 4 (which was quite bad, tbh)? 

Because there are so many ways to pop spores in this game when each has different interaction, effect and usage.

 

[Reifnir]

2 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Because there are so many ways to pop spores in this game when each has different interaction, effect and usage.

 

It's like saying Excal's Blind is his defining ability and "can be used in so many ways", because you can use it for CC,  or to open enemies for finishers, or in combination with Banshee's Silence or (augmented) to buff abilities that deal Finisher damage. It's still the same ability, you know. And I imagine if all Excalibur had was Blind, with all other abilities trash in comparison, there would be an uproar. 

[IceColdHawk]

6 minutes ago, DeadPrime said:

She does need some work but she ain't the worst frame of all time in space.

And this comes from a saryn lover (you). Thank you for that and i can't agree even more.

7 minutes ago, DeadPrime said:

I would like you to make a Topic with some kind of voting system where we could all vote "yes" for those changes. It would bring her back on her SpottLight as the Miasma Gurl and every1 would stop saying that she is Trash cause Iam tired of trying to "teach" others that she is still good in a different way ( and yes she is ).

For now mag and volt are on the rework list. And even though i like to agree, there are frames that could need reworks or tweaks even more than saryn.

3 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

And that part wasn't even a third of my post.

Doesn't make my answer to that specific statement in your post wrong.

[ClinkzEastwood]

16 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

 

Doesn't make my answer to that specific statement in your post wrong.

It doesn't.

But

6 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

New set of skills=different play style. Some people still keep the old play-style playing the new Saryn, which results in some hilariously bad Youtube videos saying the rework is a straigth nerf.

 

 

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

You are assuming everyone keeps playing "press 4 to win" thus they say saryn is bad. But that's just wrong.

The fact that I've never claimed the ONLY reason why people say saryn is bad because they keep playing press 4 to win says that you're wrong.

You only quoted a forth of my post.

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

It doesn't.

But

 

The fact that I've never claimed the ONLY reason why people say saryn is bad because they keep playing press 4 to win says that you're wrong.

You only quoted a forth of my post.

Alright, i gotta admit i've used the wrong word then. Sorry but i'm used to only hear "omg nubs cry cuz they can't press 4 to win anymore, l2p" here on the forums. Okay then let me go through the rest of your post out of honor.

6 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Other thing is while I won't say she's a hard frame to play, she's harder and different than all other frames in this game, which make her to be unpopular despite being very strong (equinox shares the same problem)

Well yeah while that is kind of true (even though i do not understand why equinox is complicated, you just need to know what is good and what not) it should also reward us more. You know the reference? "No pain no gain". If we go through the "pain" to master that frame, we should be rewarded for that. And yeah, while saryn is definitely not S#&$, she isn't anything overly special too, other than being harder to play. Other frames are easier and oftenly give more gain than saryn. That is a problem in my opinion.

6 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Also min maxers and rushers only like using certain setups while doing missions: Excal trin for Draco, Blind Mirage for interception, 4-frames setup for raid, Ember for any low level content. This makes Saryn to be less appealing.

 Even if it doesn't really apply to me, i must say it's true. Sure, frames like mirage are more popular for being in meta setups like LoR or interception. Because they get the job done the easiest way. And that also tells us that saryn isn't the best pick in most situations. But while it does make saryn less appealing, it has nothing to do with people saying that she is bad or that she got nerfed. Many people post accurate reasons and offer possible good solutions to make her better but it's sad to see that they get ignored and put into the "press-4-to-win" drawer.

6 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Other people in the other hand like her because there are so many ways to build her you could talk about it for days.

No problem there. That's reasonable enough to like her. But one also has to understand that other people like to get a bit more out of saryn instead of only having fun about build diversity.

[LilLemay]

Honestly the way I play my Saryn I barely even touch 4, I use it as more of a mass AOE CC stun than I do a genuine ''kill it all'' power. I mean yeah if I happen to notice a particularly large group of enemies first I'll make sure spores are spread through them, then i'll press 2-4 for some extra damage, but I don't wait around for Miasma to kill them off, I immediately start spreading spores again and cutting them down with my Nikana P, maybe drop a regenerative molt and slap some spores on that to get myself some health while they're stunned and ensure that more spores spread when they kill the molt. 

My only real complaint with Saryn is the same as many people's, Molt just dies way too quickly. It should honestly have an absorb period similar to Iron Skin/Warding Halo and have matching armor as you do (yes i'm aware Saryn doesn't have much armor, but it'll help a tiny bit at least)

-----------

And to those of you asking if 1 spam is any better than 4 spam, yes it is. Pre-rework Saryn was nothing but a stand in one place and tap 4 and kill everything frame, now yes you may still be spamming a power but you're running around using other powers, actually fighting enemies, dodging bullets etc. You're spamming a certain power often yes, but you're at least actually playing the game

Edited March 1, 2016 by LilLemay
Additional Thoughts

[moonfallen]

I just wanted to point out few facts that old Saryn was all-rounder frame solid alternative to rhino that everyone chose to play clearing solar system during game progression, i really enjoyed playing her back then cuz no meter type of a mission from md spy to inter u could solo rush them with her, i can agree with changes to make her skills more usable during the game play but come on who gonna on speed run stop in room spawn molt > cast spore on it x3 > bash it with meele shoot it > w8 for spread and molt to die > and then u are free to go use her 4 like in old times, its not that hard for me to do but lets be honest from mission that takes 10min of your game time useing her to the same point as caster it take 15+min just come on! 

[Dailenth]

I think the mistake they've made is they released Saryn Prime too soon. They released her short after they've made the new skin.

[Anatolius]

As much as i liked the rework,  she is missing some CC.

 

You can take that as you will considering that scaling is broken and thus you use CC to combat that or one of the few frames that scale almost  indefinitely.

Even Nova can and does drop off a little  (its not too bad but still very noticeable). Regardless of frame, you normally need 4 CP if you are going up against heavy units. But if cc is how things are going to be in order to pass higher level content then Saryn's kit should better reflect this. 

 

- I think her normal energy pool don't justify her heavy power use. Buffing her none prime's energy  pool would be great

- molt needs an invulnerability period. 5 seconds will do.

-Toxic lash seems kinda lackluster. It should be for the whole group within a given range of course 

-Miasma should do 1 or two things and the other as an augment 

1. The first tick of damage is a guerrenteed corrosion proc.

2. The augment can be like the tar moa where you get a corrosive ring of sludge that hinders movement withinsome range.

 

That should give her some more CC, something I feel she lacks.