Is Saryn really balanced?.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

On 3/12/2016 at 0:54 PM, ----Fenrir---- said:

Excal's damage works well up to level 150 enemies. And thanks to Radial Blind he also can survive that long. Gl trying to survive with Saryn up to that point. Let alone past that^^

What utility? Saryn has zero utility apart from viral procs which I can spread with my Braton Prime nearly as fast without having to use energy.... Frost's Avalanche has utility. Because the freezing and the armor reduction still retain their usefulness long after the damage falls off.

I didnt like her rework first too until maelstromm showed me her potential, she is the best damage frame, outdamaging equinox with the now nerfed 1/2 combo of trin easily and crushed lvl 2000 enemies

[RealPandemonium]

6 hours ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

Well her miasma procs corrosive like 2 procs out of 1 cast at least in my build, you can use 4 cp and her damage is still crushing lvl 2000 enemies easily

Miasma doesn't proc, except cosmetically upon killing an enemy.  If you use 4 CPs any form of damage will become viable, and Saryn's raw damage potential is among the highest of all frames.  

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Just now, RealPandemonium said:

Miasma doesn't proc, except cosmetically upon killing an enemy.  If you use 4 CPs any form of damage will become viable, and Saryn's raw damage potential is among the highest of all frames.  

It does actually since u 18.4, no idea if it is intended but it DOES proc corrosive, can take video maybe tomorrow of it

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

It does actually since u 18.4, no idea if it is intended but it DOES proc corrosive, can take video maybe tomorrow of it

It was only proccing for a hotfix or two, after which the current behavior was implemented.  Why they chose to "fix" it is anyone's guess, though.

[ThreeLeggedSnek]

Saryn IS broken. And as for anyone who says she is good/powerful as a debuffer frame I have this to say: OLD SAYRN DIDN'T NEED TO DEBUFF! She just KILLED!!!! New-Sayrn debuffs, but DOESN'T kill.

[Hellmaker2004]

6 minutes ago, Code__Dragon said:

Saryn IS broken. And as for anyone who says she is good/powerful as a debuffer frame I have this to say: OLD SAYRN DIDN'T NEED TO DEBUFF! She just KILLED!!!! New-Sayrn debuffs, but DOESN'T kill.

 

New Saryn debuffs and deal more damage than old Saryn, the only difference is that you do not blindly spam number four anymore.

[ThreeLeggedSnek]

1 minute ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

 

New Saryn debuffs and deal more damage than old Saryn, the only difference is that you do not blindly spam number four anymore.

If you are correct; it sure doesn't feel that way. Also, have you seen the video? 1 Excalibur is WAY more powerful than Saryn. Also, Old Saryn didn't NEED to debuff.  She just kind of... slaughtered everything.

[Gurpgork]

4 minutes ago, Code__Dragon said:

Saryn IS broken. And as for anyone who says she is good/powerful as a debuffer frame I have this to say: OLD SAYRN DIDN'T NEED TO DEBUFF! She just KILLED!!!! New-Sayrn debuffs, but DOESN'T kill.

Old Saryn literally relied on a bug to be in the least bit useful. She also had no scalability whatsoever. Not to mention that with both procs (and counting Viral procs as doubling damage), new Miasma can actually outdamage old Miasma.

[Hellmaker2004]

11 minutes ago, Code__Dragon said:

If you are correct; it sure doesn't feel that way. Also, have you seen the video? 1 Excalibur is WAY more powerful than Saryn. Also, Old Saryn didn't NEED to debuff.  She just kind of... slaughtered everything.

The video showed you what, how to rely on Miasma for damage. Miasma is not the main damage dealer in Saryn's kit and if you compare it as such you will never achieve what she is good at.

Miasma is a background AoE dealer that are supposed to finish of what survived her spore / Toxin combo and stagger foes inside a huge area to aid in her survival.

 

That video is terrible, the only way it could have been worse is if someone used Antimatter drop in Nova's kit and then complained about the damage it did without shooting at the orb.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[ThreeLeggedSnek]

32 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

The video showed you what, how to rely on Miasma for damage. Miasma is not the main damage dealer in Saryn's kit and if you compare it as such you will never achieve what she is good at.

Miasma is a background AoE dealer that are supposed to finish of what survived her spore / Toxin combo and stagger foes inside a huge area to aid in her survival.

 

That video is terrible, the only way it could have been worse is if someone used Antimatter drop in Nova's kit and then complained about the damage it did without shooting at the orb.

My point: "Miasma is not the main damage dealer in Saryn's kit". It used to be. Now its a shadow of its former self, which was able to do 75% energy efficiency with positive effects (All damage was dealt within a few seconds, rather than DoT which is the current)

[Ohmlink]

2 minutes ago, Code__Dragon said:

My point: "Miasma is not the main damage dealer in Saryn's kit". It used to be. Now its a shadow of its former self, which was able to do 75% energy efficiency with positive effects (All damage was dealt within a few seconds, rather than DoT which is the current)

Things change, she was always intended to be a DOT frame, the debuffs are now the most attractive part.

[Hellmaker2004]

43 minutes ago, Code__Dragon said:

My point: "Miasma is not the main damage dealer in Saryn's kit". It used to be. Now its a shadow of its former self, which was able to do 75% energy efficiency with positive effects (All damage was dealt within a few seconds, rather than DoT which is the current)

So the fact that she deals more damage both in burst and over time than she did before is completely null and void because it is not a one button wonder anymore?

Or is it the fact it is not tied to Miasma that troubles you?

 

A frame does not have to deal massive amount of damage with the number four skill, if we return to Nova. her number four deals no damage at all, while her number two can deal a huge amount of damage.

 

People seem to be way to focused on how Miasma work then and now, and the new Miasma can still deal more damage than the old one but at a slower pace however Miasma is not her primary way to deal huge damage if people accept this and use the rest of her kit they may realize that not only does she have a much higher Damage per second than before, she can also generate much higher burst damage as well.

[Buzkyl]

36 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

So the fact that she deals more damage both in burst and over time than she did before is completely null and void because it is not a one button wonder anymore?

Or is it the fact it is not tied to Miasma that troubles you?

 

A frame does not have to deal massive amount of damage with the number four skill, if we return to Nova. her number four deals no damage at all, while her number two can deal a huge amount of damage.

 

People seem to be way to focused on how Miasma work then and now, and the new Miasma can still deal more damage than the old one but at a slower pace however Miasma is not her primary way to deal huge damage if people accept this and use the rest of her kit they may realize that not only does she have a much higher Damage per second than before, she can also generate much higher burst damage as well.

 

Except the rework revision miasma as saryn's finisher move. From  the onset, it was said we debuff enemies by applying Viral and toxin procs then finish them off with miasma. Miasma is suppose to be her main damage dealing move, interms of killing enemies that is. However that has not happened. Miasma is centered around being powered up from her kit to deal more damage.

 

• Viral cuts enemy HP in half and boosts damage
• Molt causes toxin proc and boost damage based on remaining health.
• Toxic lash causes even more toxin procs.

However despite that, miasma is still her worst ability. Are you saying that despite all those various bonuses that miasma was infact not suppose to be her main damage skill? Spore provides greater burst damage and DPS when used with high damage/status weapons, it fills the roll miasma should be occupying. No it should not be simple press and win button, however even utilizing it to it's full potential, it still scales very poorly compared to her other skills. It's CC is  mediocre at best and it doesn't even debuff enemies.

[RealPandemonium]

Miasma still has more damage per cast than any other radial nuke and out-damages its previous incarnation that abused a bug but without needing to abuse a bug now.  People just don't care about radial nukes anymore because the goalpost has been moved to level 100 Grineer where only excessive (XXXXX+) damage is sufficient without armor bandaids.  Many of the people participating in the discussion don't even understand how armor works and don't care as long as they can get their rewards; gameplay is dead to them.

[RealPandemonium]

2 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

 

Except the rework revision miasma as saryn's finisher move. From  the onset, it was said we debuff enemies by applying Viral and toxin procs then finish them off with miasma. Miasma is suppose to be her main damage dealing move, interms of killing enemies that is. However that has not happened. Miasma is centered around being powered up from her kit to deal more damage.

 

• Viral cuts enemy HP in half and boosts damage
• Molt causes toxin proc and boost damage based on remaining health.
• Toxic lash causes even more toxin procs.

However despite that, miasma is still her worst ability. Are you saying that despite all those various bonuses that miasma was infact not suppose to be her main damage skill? Spore provides greater burst damage and DPS when used with high damage/status weapons, it fills the roll miasma should be occupying. No it should not be simple press and win button, however even utilizing it to it's full potential, it still scales very poorly compared to her other skills. It's CC is  mediocre at best and it doesn't even debuff enemies.

Can you back this up with some math?

[Buzkyl]

35 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Can you back this up with some math?

 

Sure.

Miasma normally ticks 4 times for 350 damage. Giving us 1400 damage normally. Without any mods

However throw in a viral and corrosive proc saryn gains an additional 300% more damage per tick, 100% for either proc and 200% for them together.

Bringing us to 4200 damage at the end of all the ticks. However it should be noted that while the viral proc is active, the enemy HP is halfed, and as well is being bombarded by any active toxin proc. This also doesn't take into consideration Corrosive damage gets bonuses vs ferrite armor.

 

This pales in comparison to Spore.

 

Spore not only applies a viral proc, but while an enemy is affected by a toxin proc. Popping the spore will transfer 25% of the base damage of the toxin proc to nearby enemies as a toxin proc. Spores are essentially going to take a portion of the applied weapon damage and turn it into a toxin proc. That 25% is also affected by mods.

Spores also has greater reach than miasma, is cheaper and can be maintained easily.

This toxin proc can also be affected by gas damage which will cause a AoE toxin proc, popping spores for you. I took these screenshots for this post specifically just as an example of what spores are capable off. Thier damage surpasses miasma in all ways and the provide more utility with their proc.

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

These are all well over 1k dots that are ticking per enemy in crowd. The only actual downside to this is that not many weapons will combine a high damage and high status chance rate as well as the lanka. However I use mods such as catalyzer link to boost lankas status everytime i cast spore.

 

 

So in the end a skill which takes 175 energy to get the full potential of, is beaten by a 25 energy skill.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Buzkyl

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

3 hours ago, Code__Dragon said:

Saryn IS broken. And as for anyone who says she is good/powerful as a debuffer frame I have this to say: OLD SAYRN DIDN'T NEED TO DEBUFF! She just KILLED!!!! New-Sayrn debuffs, but DOESN'T kill.

???!??!?!

Do you even spore/lash bro? The spores don't only dbuff but stack(basicly multiply on the right build) from melee injected poison damage.

Build for full crit/basedamage/utility and destroying a spore adds the full damage of a previous melee strike to the destruction damage, more with each hit, while spreading 25% (base~)  of the final numbers together with the spores for evryone to  destroy.

Miasama also affects the spores to an extend radial abilitys do, attacking the torso...now calculate on a base of ~60-90k crit melee damage, take ~40% of this number (probably even more, i'd say 80%) multiply it with 3 for 3 spores and you have the actuall radial damage miasama does on her kit. Per target. Multiply by whatever to get the endnumber. How does the multiple of what she was EVER able to do with minimal setup (you're at this state with a few melee hits and ongoing combos), including ridiculous pinpoint damage NOT kill? And did anyone mention the viral yet that effectively doubles this op damage?

 

The mentioned video is definitly silly as the guy who made it has NO IDEA how her mechanics work... and you don't eather as it seems.

Edited March 17, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Hellmaker2004]

You added Spore but forgot to add to the fact spore also decreases the value of damage you need to deal by 50% further adding a 2x multiplier on the damage theoretically.

So the main problem people have with Saryn is that the number four skill deal less burst damage than her burst skill?

[YasaiTsume]

Actually I went back and look at some old Saryn Videos, and found out every since they nerfed Chlora Saryn Helm into the dirt (Changing the negative Duration to multiplicative)
Miasma's damage stabalised at around 7k ~ 10k with the old builds.

What is the major difference is that current Miasma doesn't strip armor like before, hence outputting lesser damage. 

However, the main focus of this rework, which might I add is pretty darn broken, is the fact that Spores are now ALLOWED to tap into the broken state of weapons, mainly being the broken Red Crits and Gas / Toxin Procs that can fly right into the 10,000s without even a break of a sweat. (25% of proc damage is converted into Viral burst on spread)

That alone already ensured Saryn has a form of "Scaling" damage based on whatever weapon she chooses to bring, added by the fact Toxic Lash 100% Stacks 1 Instance of Toxin every strike AND that Spores seem to spread as long as they are even poked alittle by any weapon, increases Saryn's overall DPS tenfold.

The reason people keep screaming about Saryn nerf is because they keep tunnel vision on the one thing that made Saryn viable in the past : which was Miasma

IMO, DE should have just completely revamped that ability and changed it so it resembled nothing like the old Miasma, but they decided to gate it behind a few setups to achieve the same damage as before.

Note that the damage is about the same before as it is now, difference being that the new Miasma is in ticks due to her Duration requirements. 

 

Wish people would stop staring at Miasma and judging a frame based on her 4, and wish DE would give Miasma some power back or just change it entirely. 

[RealPandemonium]

8 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

math

Well-put.  It is worth noting that Miasma's direct damage is still at least competitive with Spores', and exceeds it outside of Spores' maxcase (constantly refreshing via AOEs or spammed on a constantly AOE'd target.)  It's only when you introduce weapon damage to the equation that Spores start getting crazy, which is to be expected in an environment where guns are relentlessly powercreeped.  

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Hell...i'm on ps4...we don't even have the shadow debt mods yet so i work with a FAR lower basedamage and still outnumber absolutely evryone, evrywhere (45:20 vs excals, ty)... saryn is ridiculous building on ridiculous...

Edited March 17, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[-dicht.Amducias-]

5 hours ago, Code__Dragon said:

If you are correct; it sure doesn't feel that way. Also, have you seen the video? 1 Excalibur is WAY more powerful than Saryn. Also, Old Saryn didn't NEED to debuff.  She just kind of... slaughtered everything.

Compare this damage to the old saryn.. it is caused by spore 

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

Compare this damage to the old saryn.. it is caused by spore 

...and Sonar/whatever else you're using to boost the damage to 6-digit numbers.

[Buzkyl]

14 hours ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

 

Compare this damage to the old saryn.. it is caused by spore 

The damage is being boosted by sonar to reach those absurd amounts. So no, the banshee on the team should be thanked for that screenshot.

[PikeOrShield]

4 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

The damage is being boosted by sonar to reach those absurd amounts. So no, the banshee on the team should be thanked for that screenshot.

I think his point is that the two warframes have very good synergy.  In the first screenshot, you can also see a day Equinox and a Rhino Prime, both buffing Saryn's powerstrength.  None of those warframes can achieve multiple numbers like that at the same time on their own.  Maybe a sonar banshee can score a few of those with a sniper rifle, and theoretically Saryn can if the enemies have enough health and you spend a ridiculous amount of time building up spore damage, however, it is on through teamwork that they can achieve this across the map (since spore spreads to other enemies once an infected unit dies).