My thoughts on the operators and warframes.

[Alastair-Ulven]

OK I have seen quite a few post, saying how people find it annoying how we, are controlling the operators which then control the warframes, instead of just the warframes (summed up). But I have a slightly different thought on what the operators do/are.

Personally I think that the operators CAN'T completely control the Waframes, but instead the Warframes are a separate entity entirely. Instead the operators act a a calming influence (or a commander as said later in the post), shown by how the raging Warframe (may have been a prototype (Rhino Primes codex)), calmed down when transference was established. I think the operators also act as a kind of energy focal point transfering it to the frames, like they are lending there power to them. A theory that came up later in the discussion, was that transference merges the mind of the operator and Warframe to create a third consciousness, thus why transference hurts the operator though just having linked minds/senses explains why it hurts.

My thought is if a frame kills it's operator or the operator dies, I theorise the connected frame at the time of death, inherits the operators power, but is then driven mad by said power or at least reverts to a more primal state. What further supports this theory that the Operator and Warframe are separate, is I doubt that the operator could go from acting like mirage, to say inaros or frost, that's why I they say "my Warframe is strong" instead of "I am strong" or "this body is strong", they aren't talking about what they can do, but of something that is considered theirs can do like (thank you Extroah) "My kid is strong" (see his post for the full details page 2). The Operators almost act like commands/tacticians giving order to the soldiers (Warframes), while the Lotus is the ruler/queen, who gives order to her generals (Tenno).

So yer just a personal theory, let me know what you think, if you agree disagree, or if I have made a horrible mistake.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Mu-no-kitsune

[(PSN)SCRATCH__043]

Its just a game dude..

[CriticalFumble]

If you want to argue that, sure, explains why you need a special mod to do more than swing wildly with melee weapons (logically, a weapon master controlling it directly wouldn't need no stinkin' mod to do cool tricks).  Though that depends on just how much canon you want to take from the game systems. 

There's no indication that Chroma ever killed a Tenno, just that it runs around autonomously and acts based on the way its built (fish swim, birds [excluding penguins and such] fly, Chroma hunts).  And we have a codex entry that implies the Stalker was more man than autonomous war machine at one point - but the fact is we know so little about him that we have no real idea what on Hek's green Earth he is now. 

And personally, I like to have more information before jumping from "what if" to "I think". 

[AdunSaveMe]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)SCRATCH__043 said:

Its just a game dude..

I'm struggling to determine the point of this comment

[(PSN)Uio937]

7 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said:

If you want to argue that, sure, explains why you need a special mod to do more than swing wildly with melee weapons (logically, a weapon master controlling it directly wouldn't need no stinkin' mod to do cool tricks).  Though that depends on just how much canon you want to take from the game systems. 

There's no indication that Chroma ever killed a Tenno, just that it runs around autonomously and acts based on the way its built (fish swim, birds [excluding penguins and such] fly, Chroma hunts).  And we have a codex entry that implies the Stalker was more man than autonomous war machine at one point - but the fact is we know so little about him that we have no real idea what on Hek's green Earth he is now. 

And personally, I like to have more information before jumping from "what if" to "I think". 

Sometimes a game mechanic is just a game mechanic and there is no lore to explain it, hence stance mods

[CriticalFumble]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Uio937 said:

Sometimes a game mechanic is just a game mechanic and there is no lore to explain it, hence stance mods

Which is what I usually go with. 

But after Second Dream, its at least worth accepting as a point. 

[Heatnix.]

I think the implications of that theory would be even sadder than the current concept of kids playing with Warframes to save the world. It would make it so Warframes --are slaves of Operators-- were slaves of the Orokin, making the Warframes the most useful unit but the one at the bottom-- or that would be the Kubrow? Free all Kubrows!

It would also reduce the Operator to a battery that fuels a Warframe on pure teenage angst and nothing more. It just feels like making the lore even sadder than it is.

I can see this happening, though. Not because we have dug deep means we can't dig deeper.

[Alastair-Ulven]

16 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said:

If you want to argue that, sure, explains why you need a special mod to do more than swing wildly with melee weapons (logically, a weapon master controlling it directly wouldn't need no stinkin' mod to do cool tricks).  Though that depends on just how much canon you want to take from the game systems. 

There's no indication that Chroma ever killed a Tenno, just that it runs around autonomously and acts based on the way its built (fish swim, birds [excluding penguins and such] fly, Chroma hunts).  And we have a codex entry that implies the Stalker was more man than autonomous war machine at one point - but the fact is we know so little about him that we have no real idea what on Hek's green Earth he is now. 

And personally, I like to have more information before jumping from "what if" to "I think". 

Every piece of info we get on the stalker seems to conflict, he can use warframe powers, but his codex makes him sound like he isnt a warframe, yet second dream makes him seem like a warframe gone rouge, it is kinda confusing.

Personally I always thought that the quest chroma, was a warframe that is disconnected from his operator as he says, "the womb in the sky has gone silent." Which I think refers to the moon, meaning his operator may have died, thus reverting to a more primal state and having the power passed to him, as I don't think the frame has to kill the operator, but whichever frame the operator is connected to at the time of death, gets the power.

[Kukukatchoo]

I think a lot of people get mad at the reveal because they feel like all of the personality of the warframes have been ripped out, but that's not true.

Like, when we play Mirage's quest and we hear that she died smiling. We know now that that wasn't literally the warframe, but the operator who died with it. The operator was what gave their warframe personality.

Similarly, when we see our operators controlling our warframes, we should probably think of it less as someone switching between them like weapons. That's how it looks in our arsenal, yeah, but when it comes down to it, we all have mains, right? I think the concept is more that your operator is the "next" Mirage. The next Excalibur. The next Inaros. Rather than just, "oh, well, I have this warframe now."

[Alastair-Ulven]

11 minutes ago, Heatnix. said:

I think the implications of that theory would be even sadder than the current concept of kids playing with Warframes to save the world. It would make it so Warframes --are slaves of Operators-- were slaves of the Orokin, making the Warframes the most useful unit but the one at the bottom-- or that would be the Kubrow? Free all Kubrows!

It would also reduce the Operator to a battery that fuels a Warframe on pure teenage angst and nothing more. It just feels like making the lore even sadder than it is.

I can see this happening, though. Not because we have dug deep means we can't dig deeper.

Honestly when you put it like that, yer it does seem sad but I think its less of them being slaves to the tenno and more of the operator being a grounding force. Though the bit of fuelling the frames on teenage angst is funny.

I see it as a symbiotic relationship, the tenno need the warframes so their power doesn't go out of control like when they hurt the women (can't remember her name) and the warframes need the operators to keep them calm, kinda like a god holding him/her self back cause if said god were to go full out then his/her friends may get injured or killed. 

Though I do think its better than the warframes being just puppets, that only purpose is to fight.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Mu-no-kitsune

[Sloan441]

Chroma does bring up some interesting possibilities.

The warframes do seem to have some degree of awareness, but it's submerged in the tenno's personality or psyche. Transference is an overlay of consciousness where the operator's psyche literally displaces or absorbs (more likely) that of whatever the warframe has to begin with. This also implies that the connection of transference isn't necessarily a one way street. The warframe probably does influence the operator to some degree, but at a subliminal or possibly even emotional level.

Which brings us to Chroma. He seems to have become separated from his operator and is searching for what he's lost. That's how we encounter him in the quest. The interesting part is he's functioning at a fairly high level--certainly higher than what we see of the proto-Rhino in the RPC.

It's interesting stuff and hopefully we'll see more from DE to illuminate further what both the operators and warframes really are.

[YasaiTsume]

I still stand by my slug theory.

That kid in the back? Drug cooker, nothing more. :^) 

[CriticalFumble]

2 minutes ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

Every piece of info we get on the stalker seems to conflict, he can use warframe powers, but his codex makes him sound like he isnt a warframe, yet second dream makes him seem like a warframe gone rouge, it is kinda confusing.

Personally I always thought that the quest chroma, was a warframe that is disconnected from his operator as he says, "the womb in the sky has gone silent." Which I think refers to the moon, meaning his operator may have died, thus reverting to a more primal state and having the power passed to him, as I don't think the frame has to kill the operator, but whichever frame the operator is connected to at the time of death, gets the power.

As I understood it, the speaker there was actually Hunhow, or some fragment of him or another Sentient, if there are others.  Remember that you actually free him with the scanner?  Chroma has no lines afterwards, either, not even an acknowledgement.  It could be as simple as not being in a cryo pod that can let a warframe become "wild", or maybe was found and co-opted by a Sentient. 

About the Stalker, you know what isn't a warframe but can still use powers?  (besides eximus units).  Tenno.  I don't think he's actually "one of us" per se, but after the Orokin leadership was dead, what would stop him from trying to get Void powers of his own?  I fail to see the conflict, what in Second Dream makes him seem to be a loose warframe? 

[Alastair-Ulven]

1 minute ago, CriticalFumble said:

As I understood it, the speaker there was actually Hunhow, or some fragment of him or another Sentient, if there are others.  Remember that you actually free him with the scanner?  Chroma has no lines afterwards, either, not even an acknowledgement.  It could be as simple as not being in a cryo pod that can let a warframe become "wild", or maybe was found and co-opted by a Sentient. 

About the Stalker, you know what isn't a warframe but can still use powers?  (besides eximus units).  Tenno.  I don't think he's actually "one of us" per se, but after the Orokin leadership was dead, what would stop him from trying to get Void powers of his own?  I fail to see the conflict, what in Second Dream makes him seem to be a loose warframe? 

Well what made me think that the stalker, was a rouge warframe was his reaction to the operator. Upon seeing our operator he just stopped, as if seeing memories, then he knew that we would be taking them to the transference in our ship, which he wouldn't know of unless he had seen it before, as hunhow has no way to knowing as he has just recently woke up.

About the power bit yes tenno can use them,(for obvious reasons) but the powers are unfocused and raw not to the level we see stalker using them adsorb, dispel, slash dash, a variation on oberons ult ect, all evidence we have says tenno cant fully control their power.

[Stratego89]

1 hour ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

Instead the operators act a a calming influence, shown by how the raging warframe, calmed down when transference was established.

I'm gonna go ahead and just assume that like anyone else I've ever seen say this- you're talking about Rhino Prime's codex entry. If that is indeed the case allow me to explain something.

The thing in Rhino Prime's codex entry was not a warframe. The thing in Rhino Prime's codex entry was an infested. Rhino Prime's codex entry is a record of the discovery of transference. Warframes were created to utilize transference in a way that would work for fighting. Warframes were not created before transference was discovered. Rhino Prime codex entry = discovery of transference = warframes did not exist = it was an infested that was taken under control. It's been said in lore that this is why our warframes use T-Cyte (infestation) in their construction.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

7 minutes ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

Well what made me think that the stalker, was a rouge warframe was his reaction to the operator. Upon seeing our operator he just stopped, as if seeing memories, then he knew that we would be taking them to the transference in our ship, which he wouldn't know of unless he had seen it before, as hunhow has no way to knowing as he has just recently woke up.

About the power bit yes tenno can use them,(for obvious reasons) but the powers are unfocused and raw not to the level we see stalker using them adsorb, dispel, slash dash, a variation on oberons ult ect, all evidence we have says tenno cant fully control their power.

Indeed Stalker is very rouge in appearance.  He has that rouge glow.  XD

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rouge

Edited March 13, 2016 by sushidubya

[Alastair-Ulven]

2 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

I'm gonna go ahead and just assume that like anyone else I've ever seen say this- you're talking about Rhino Prime's codex entry. If that is indeed the case allow me to explain something.

The thing in Rhino Prime's codex entry was not a warframe. The thing in Rhino Prime's codex entry was an infested. Rhino Prime's codex entry is a record of the discovery of transference. Warframes were created to utilize transference in a way that would work for fighting. Warframes were not created before transference was discovered. Rhino Prime codex entry = discovery of transference = warframes did not exist = it was an infested that was taken under control. It's been said in lore that this is why our warframes use T-Cyte (infestation) in their construction.

Even if it was just a infested, it shows that a link with a tenno acts to calm them.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Mu-no-kitsune

[Genitive]

It is more likely that Chroma was controlled by the sentients. We know that it is possible to control a warframe withouth a Tenno (infested Mesa), and there is little eveidence that warframes can move on their own besides the Rhino codex entry.

At the end of the Second Dream your warframe did move on its own, but nowhere it is said that the Tenno can't control their warframes from a distance without the help of somatic link. Even in the Rhino codex you have the moment where a Tenno takes control of the 'proto-warframe' from inside a cell. So the moment when your warframe breaks the War didn't have to be a sign of warframe's sentience, but the last effort of the operator to save themselves.

I don't think it is likely that warframes have their own minds. Why should they? It would be more difficult to control them.

 

1 minute ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

Even if it was just a infested, it shows that a link with a tenno acts to calm them.

I don't think the Tenno calmed it, but rather completely took control over it. At the moment when the beast stops and looks around, it is the Tenno who is in control. That's why it is called transference - mind moves from one body to another.

 

[CriticalFumble]

Just now, Mu-no-kitsune said:

Well what made me think that the stalker, was a rouge warframe was his reaction to the operator. Upon seeing our operator he just stopped, as if seeing memories, then he knew that we would be taking them to the transference in our ship, which he wouldn't know of unless he had seen it before, as hunhow has no way to knowing as he has just recently woke up.

About the power bit yes tenno can use them,(for obvious reasons) but the powers are unfocused and raw not to the level we see stalker using them adsorb, dispel, slash dash, a variation on oberons ult ect, all evidence we have says tenno cant fully control their power.

Hunhow already knew, that's how he knew that sending the Stalker after sleeping Operators was the best way to thin out the Tenno.  The Stalker also had been to the Reservoir before and it made him loose his mind (I'd guess from guilt, that's another whole subject to just lightly touch below).  He knew my muscle memory how to kill us, even if his mind had forgotten. 

My point about the powers is this: Why assume that the Stalker is something new, a warframe with absorbed powers, rather than something that already exists - a void fragged human controlling a warframe by remote?  It explains his reaction better than a defective killing machine, after all he'd likely been in his own pod for hundreds of years, long enough to fell more at ease in the frame than in his own skin. 

[Alastair-Ulven]

On 12/03/2016 at 0:08 AM, Genitive said:

It is more likely that Chroma was controlled by the sentients. We know that it is possible to control a warframe withouth a Tenno (infested Mesa), and there is little eveidence that warframes can move on their own besides the Rhino codex entry.

At the end of the Second Dream your warframe did move on its own, but nowhere it is said that the Tenno can't control their warframes from a distance without the help of somatic link. Even in the Rhino codex you have the moment where a Tenno takes control of the 'proto-warframe' from inside a cell. So the moment when your warframe breaks the War didn't have to be a sign of warframe's sentience, but the last effort of the operator to save themselves.

I don't think it is likely that warframes have their own minds. Why should they? It would be more difficult to control them.

 

I don't think the Tenno calmed it, but rather completely took control over it. At the moment when the beast stops and looks around, it is the Tenno who is in control. That's why it is called transference - mind moves from one body to another.

 

True it is possible to control a warframe, but then why does chroma talk about the womb in the sky, how would a sentient know of it. I think the reason that the proto-warframe could move, but ours couldn't is because it was a prototype they had yet to make that a feature, or a alternate explanation maybe the area where it rampaged was full of the tenno's/void power so it was moving off that.

As for why it would have a mind of its own, it would be hard to make a living being then not have a mind/conscience of its own. Personally I think transference is less of, harbinger like assuming direct control and more of either two minds becoming one, or two minds working together, the operator being the tactician and the Warframe being the solider or fighter to carry them out, but able to resist/say no.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Mu-no-kitsune

[Alastair-Ulven]

On 12/03/2016 at 0:09 AM, CriticalFumble said:

Hunhow already knew, that's how he knew that sending the Stalker after sleeping Operators was the best way to thin out the Tenno.  The Stalker also had been to the Reservoir before and it made him loose his mind (I'd guess from guilt, that's another whole subject to just lightly touch below).  He knew by muscle memory how to kill us, even if his mind had forgotten. 

My point about the powers is this: Why assume that the Stalker is something new, a warframe with absorbed powers, rather than something that already exists - a void fragged human controlling a warframe by remote?  It explains his reaction better than a defective killing machine, after all he'd likely been in his own pod for hundreds of years, long enough to feel more at ease in the frame than in his own skin. 

The thing is how would Hunhow know, Lotus said that after the war, the operators were put to sleep not during (unless I am remembering wrong).

As for why go for something that doesn't yet exist well, operators didn't exist as we know them till second dream. We also have no evidence that tenno can control their powers outside of laser beam, unless channelled though a Warframe first. 

Why would the stalker hate the tenno, if he was still being connected to one, even if he had forgotten he was. To me him stopping just seems alot like he was remembering a event from long ago, like most Naruto character do every third episode to have a flashback.

In addition your first paragraph says he feels guilt then the next says controlled by tenno, a little bit of a contradiction. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Mu-no-kitsune

[Genitive]

4 minutes ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

how would a sentient know of it.

Hunhow knew of it. It's safe to assume the other Sentients might know about it as well.

 

The 'proto-warframe', as stated somewhere above, was jus an infested experimented on. So it had its own mind. It was probably created to fight the Sentients, not to be controlled by the Tenno.

Why do I think warframes don't have their own minds? Simply to avoid situations like in the Rhino entry. 

[Robin-da-Reaper]

2 minutes ago, Mu-no-kitsune said:

True it is possible to control a warframe, but then why does chroma talk about the womb in the sky, how would a sentient know of it. I think the reason that the prorwarframe could move but we couldnt is because it was a prototype they had yet to make that a feature, or a alternate explanation maybe the area where it rampaged was full of the tennos power so it was moving off that.

As for why it would have a mind of its own, it would be hard to make a living being then not have a mind/conscience of its own. Personally I think transference is less of, harbinger like assuming direct control and more of either two minds becoming one, or two minds working together, the operator being the tactician and the warframe being the solider or fighter to carry them out, but able to resist/say no.

Although I´m not certain on the level of sentience a warframe would have normally, I do like the idea coming from your last sentences. 

From the merger of those two minds, or simply from the link taking root inside of that body, I imagine something like a third consciousness could form if there are two to begin with. If the warframe is semi-sentient on average when it is mobile, maybe that third consciousness could be what actually acts through the merger of both operator and the warframe's mind conjoining. What I´m saying is probably, that that third, acting consciousness might be what is us, the players. The "real Tenno", just maybe. 

[TARINunit9]

Player character = Tenno

Zariman child =/= Tenno

Warframe =/= Tenno

Zariman/Warframe mental symbiosis = Tenno

You are greater than the sum of your parts

[Alastair-Ulven]

2 minutes ago, Robin-da-Reaper said:

Although I´m not certain on the level of sentience a warframe would have normally, I do like the idea coming from your last sentences. 

From the merger of those two minds, or simply from the link taking root inside of that body, I imagine something like a third consciousness could form if there are two to begin with. If the warframe is semi-sentient on average when it is mobile, maybe that third consciousness could be what actually acts through the merger of both operator and the warframe's mind conjoining. What I´m saying is probably, that that third, acting consciousness might be what is us, the players. The "real Tenno", just maybe. 

I really like the idea of a third consciousness, kind of like well fusions from Steven Universe (closet comparison I can think of) where two separate personality e.g. sapphire and ruby become garnet.