Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[RagingGrizzly]

45 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

PEOPLE RUIN MY GAME, MAKE WARFRAME SINGLE PLAYER.

Technically it is. If you hit the solo button. :3 lol

Edited April 7, 2016 by PUR3K1LL3R

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

I didn't compare soma to tonkor in terms of strength. I just mentioned the soma as one of the hundred possibilities that can destroy your enjoyment of the game. Because the problem seems to be "players won't let me get kills". And yes, it is possible with a soma.

Possible, yes. But probable? I have seen amazing feats in Warframe. There was an MR 20 guy, back when Mr 20 was new,  with a Braton Vanilla playing with me once. I looked at him and was like, seriously? Turns out the dude never, ever missed and AL WAYS had a headshot. I don't even know how it was possible, but he came out second in kills only to the, you guessed it, Tonkor. Now I only got maybe 8 percent of the kills, but I still had a load of fun in that match even though I didn't kill much. Why? I was engaged. I still got to make meaningful impact on the match (the Braton is pretty weak no matter who has it) , and I got to see a master player at work.

Now the Soma, like the Braton, would have crap loads of power, sure, but still limited to single target or a conga line anyone could kill anyway. Still ample time for another person to get a couple kills in, especially since you can only fire in one direction at a time at one group, and have to be careful about ammo consumption since the Soma's reserve is hell to refill. You'd have to be at least the Braton guy's skill level to stop someone from playing. Which is harder to do than with the Tonkor, a grenade launcher. 

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

First of all: Balance is a myth. You will never get a complete "balanced" game. You shouldn't try to bend things in hope that the game somehow gets balanced. And by things i mean those that don't need bending. Now prism and soundquake is another story....but this is not our topic!

 

If you really think this, you have no idea what balance is. Balance isn't a single point, it's a spectrum of every aspect of the game laid out in such a way that the costs match the benefits of your items. Many, many, many games do this all the time. The Halo and CoD series. TF2. Street fighter. Titanfall. Starcraft. Runescape. Dragon Nest. I could go on. 

 

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

!Then i'd also like to point out that you should NEVER compare bugs to things that got released as planned. Bugs are unintended and NEED to get fixed so the game is playable and also to prevent exploits. Now the tonkor is here for a year. It would already have been fixed loong ago when it would be unintended. Also, people ENJOY it. (not everyone, but a lot)

 

You mean like copter in was fixed? Or Bladestorm putting you in the floor? Some of the bugs in this game have been there long before the Tonkor even existed. Some still haven't even been changed. This does not equate to the Tonkor Beth balanced in any way. 

For the last time, people enjoying something is not good grounds to leave it is it is. People enjoyed Viver. People enjoyed E Gate. One person in particular enjoyed the bug where you could shoot the Amprex through 2 shields and get 2 billion damage. Should all of those things be left in? No! 

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

That says you. I say otherwise. This isn't politics. This is a game. The main balancing factors are "Fun" (players) and "Money Profit" (developers). As long as those can be kept up, the game will stay up! Now in a PvP for example, LoL, when one champ is stronger than everyone, nobody likes to fight against something that overpowers them while they are not allowed to pick them anymore. That means less fun. But when people enjoy things in warframe, it is a success. 

You don't get to choose whether a fallacy applies to you or not. A fallacy is a fallacy because it is not a logical conclusion. 

You have an extremely short sighted view of how the development process works. What happens when the content doesn't work with the new weapons anymore? Developers have to make new content. Which costs money. But look, all those new powerful weapons completely trivialize your content! So you have to make content they can't trivialize, which means cheese filled enemies. Players are obviously outraged at this (as they are now)  and want yet more powerful weapons to face the cheesy enemies. And so the vicious cycle continues, as more and more players bleed off in the interim with a bad case of seen it all before until Warframe can no longer sustain itself. I'd rather not see that happen. 

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

!

: Final Opinion: - Increase Tonkor's MR.

                               - Perhaps add self damage while moving the rocket jump to alt fire.

                               - Problem solved.

Kicking the bucket further down the road will not change the fact that the bucket is still there. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

Looks like I have another raving loon to contend with before I go to sleep.

11 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

Irorone's post already did a really good job addressing your entire post.

But I want to address your response to me.

Choose a better role model. Those posts were senseless rhetoric and ad hominem almost exclusively.

11 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

Have you ever used the Amprex? Did you know amprex chains ALWAYS get headshots? Much like the tonkor always procs headshots? Did you know that? No? Because you havn't used the weapon since argon scope came out?

That's cool. It still has awful base damage, limited range, the world's worst ammo economy after dual automatic pistols, and is enforced into ammo mutation to even have a hope of lasting any useful amount of time under its own power which further limits damage output. The chained AOE is still weaker than the initial beam. You still have to maintain aim within that limited range for a much longer time than the fire-and-forget, instant damage of the Tonkor.

11 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

Oh your simulor response is. HUR DUR NO RISK NO REWARD. Yet you fail to mention that the issues with the simulor are what you used against the amprex. Did you know the simulor has MUCH less range then the amprex. MUCH LESS RANGE ALMOST 15 METERS LESS INFACT. And the simulor doesn't fire nuclear bursts like the tonkor, you have to shoot it several times to see effect vs higher level enemies.

That's cool. Because you totally have to aim at your actual enemies, not just their general direction. You don't have even better ammo efficiency than a Tonkor, already godly in its own right, by virtue of both twice the ammo per pickup and it being a more common ammo type.

That range comment is absolute nonsense, the Amprex's range is about 18m and a Simulor's shots go for 12. The merge damage of Simulor orbs also boasts an incredible 11m range on top of that, bringing the standing range of a Simulor up to 23m.

In that you don't have to hit your target to expect to damage them, the Simulor is like a Penta without self-damage or arcing projectiles, at the cost of a reduced per-shot damage blast (discounting the persistent AOE). But also with much improved blast radius and ammo accessibility. Synoid adds syndicate proc and better stats all around on top of all that.

11 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

Torid, you've never used this weapon before, have you? You stick it TO THEM. Like you have to do with the Tonkor. YOU NEED TO HIT THEM with both the Torid and the Tonkor, The torids damage rivals the tonkor, the torids statis is better then the tonkor. The Torid has the same ammo economy as the tonkor. If you run out of Torid Ammo, go back to using a Scavenger Aura with your Vectis. Because its literally like running out of vectis ammo. You have to Hur dur 0% accuracy lick a wall with the torid to not stay in the positive for ammo.

You can stick it to a target, but nothing in the weapon forces that target to stick with its friends in the fart cloud. You can stick it to the floor, but nothing in the weapon forces enemies to not run through taking just one tick.

Said cloud has a weak 3m radius - half of the already pitiful Ogris.

Saying the Torid has the damage of a Tonkor is nonsense. Calculations!

100 impact + 10*40 =400 over-time damage. 15% crit chance for impact, 10% crit chance for DoT ticks. Average damage per shot: 555

Firerate 1 per second. Burst DPS: also 555. Mag size of 5 and reload time of 3 seconds. Sustained DPS: 346.875

The Tonkor's average damage per shot is 495.625, its burst DPS is 991.25 and its sustained DPS is 330.416.

That does not account for headshots and headcrits. That does not account for greater AOE. That does not account for reliable crit weapon mods being superior.

Any of these would more than account for that paltry 16.459 sustained DPS difference. All of them apply on most targets.

Also, damage over time. Still leaves a player more vulnerable than the Tonkor's instant gratification.

11 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

But the atomos is still an instant reward fire and forget weapon, that goes in your secondary slot, Due to Pistol mods being infinitly better then primary mods, this weapon closely competes with the amprex even with the amprex crits. And its Damage type of Fire is quite effective vs Infested. Not to mention that Pistol ammo might actually be more common then rifle ammo, if not then its about the same.

It's far more about the base damage of the Atomos being many times better than the Amprex. That and a lower firerate soften the ammo economy issue.

So you've successfully made a case for the Atomos possibly being a better Amprex. That doesn't make either of them remotely capable of matching the Tonkor. You have to use Ruinous Extension to make the AOE have a hope in hell of working, and due to the lack of Shred, you can't even stack chains without sacrificing another entire slot for punch-through (Seeker). Otherwise you've got a par-at-best weapon with a 15m range and a target limited chaining effect over 3m further without Ruinous.

I can't stress that enough. Target limited. Four chained targets. Not everything in the general vicinity, four.

11 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

Hikou Prime, I don't even. as Irorone said, this weapon is used in many sustain comps. This weapons damage is insane, simply put. With a static damage output, this weapon runs DPS circles around the Kulstar. And Seriously, if you have accidentally killed yourself from full shields with this weapon, you should quit video gaming. This weapon with full firerate actually takes about 1-1.5s of you firing it at yourself to actually kill you, assuming your an unranked frame. Reguardless, Can you accidentally kill yourself with a Kulstar? YES Can you accidentally kill yourself with Hikou, Yes, but its about as likley of killing yourself with a Tonkor.

I'm convinced this is a prank. You cannot possibly make 250 non-scaling damage 'insane' no matter how much multishot and firerate you put onto it.

11 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

I dont think you've used the ignis either. This weapon's damage is insane, and it carries Low to mid level missions with abo@#&*ly no effort thanks to base Punch through, ludicrous range, and inbuilt multishot.

I like my Ignis, don't get me wrong. But its damage has about as many drawbacks as a Mk-1 Strun.

Everything's OP on low level missions. Loads of things are OP on mid missions. Past level 50 you're starting to get some serious falloff. Sure, you can mod Heavy Cal, Sinister Reach and Firestorm to make it wide- and far-reaching as hell, but you still have the issues of over-time damage and distance-based falloff.

If ammo drops were economised to be more dynamic, it might be better off, but once enemies get past mid-Endless and into Sorties, the TTK just ramps up a bit too much.. while Tonkor shots continue to oneshot for a long time after.

It's not bad. It's just not in the same league as a Tonkor. I do use it, and often.

11 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

• Now, have you actually concidered what you want?
• You want to remove the tonkor from the game.
• You want to nerf every stat, simultaneously.
• This is insane. Completely unreasonable.

What weapons do you like? I wanna nerf those weapons, I don't care if they're good or not. LETS JUST NERF EVERYTHING. IT ALL KILLS ENEMIES. JUST NERF IT ALL. NERF EVERY WARFRAME. PEOPLE NOT USING OP WEAPONS RUIN MY FUN, NERF BALANCED AND UP WEAPONS. PEOPLE USING OP WEAPONS RUIN MY GAME, NERF OP WEAPONS. PEOPLE USING WEAPONS BETTER THEN MY MK1 BRATON RUIN MY GAME, NERF ALL BALANCED AND OP WEAPONS. PEOPLE USING WARFRAMES RUINS MY GAMEPLAY, NERF ALL WARFRAMES, PEOPLE USING CHAT RUIN MY GAME, NERF COMMUNICATION, PEOPLE RAGING ON THE FORUMS RUINS MY GAME, REMOVE THE FORUMS.

TL:DR

PEOPLE RUIN MY GAME, MAKE WARFRAME SINGLE PLAYER.

• Yes
• No
• No
• No

INCOHERENT SHOUTING sensationalist nonsense again. Art thou mad, brethren?

I want a rebalance to an evidently imbalanced weapon.

I want a reasonable proportion of top-tier weapons, not 2% in a league of their own.

I want progression to be real, not having the most powerful and risk-free weapon to cheat the curve by being a Market blueprint and a pitiful MR5.

Frankly, with post content like that, if it gets someone like you salty in the process then that's icing on the cake.

[RealPandemonium]

11 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

 Does Rhino lock down the entire map endlessly?

Funny thing is, he can do this and has been able to do this for years.  He is better than ever at it now, though.  

[cx-dave]

8 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

 

With the Tonkor's grossly imbalanced risk/reward, an MR restriction of no less than 20, possibly higher (yes, higher than we can even access right now) would be the bare minimum to justify the power creep involved. But that wouldn't fix the problem, because of the Grandfather clause. Rebalancing it to accommodate other player preferences is still the most effective choice.

In the meantime during actual gameplay: Tonkor vs Hikou

[(XBOX)XiiX ToM XiiX]

9 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

You get your own post because I'd rather not risk losing my actual conversation if and when your influence causes another thread detox.

You have given no actual argument except "I'm right because I say so". Beating your proverbial chest and shouting that we know nothing and we're wrong without any evidence does not make it so, I'm afraid.

I posit that between us, it is highly more likely that you are the one who lacks lingual understanding. If our posts are so self-evidently and fundamentally wrong as you claim, you have no reason to continue engaging in these ad-hominem attacks.

Steady on there with your thesaurus mate. You and OP are saying, "I don't like it or use it and no one should use it if they're in your squad, so nerf it for everyone else cos they're selfish." Fun = Selfish to you and don't make stuff up, I never said that, you're twisting words.

[(XBOX)XiiX ToM XiiX]

7 hours ago, BrokenMirror said:

Irorone's post already did a really good job addressing your entire post.

But I want to address your response to me.

Have you ever used the Amprex? Did you know amprex chains ALWAYS get headshots? Much like the tonkor always procs headshots? Did you know that? No? Because you havn't used the weapon since argon scope came out?

Oh your simulor response is. HUR DUR NO RISK NO REWARD. Yet you fail to mention that the issues with the simulor are what you used against the amprex. Did you know the simulor has MUCH less range then the amprex. MUCH LESS RANGE ALMOST 15 METERS LESS INFACT. And the simulor doesn't fire nuclear bursts like the tonkor, you have to shoot it several times to see effect vs higher level enemies.

Torid, you've never used this weapon before, have you? You stick it TO THEM. Like you have to do with the Tonkor. YOU NEED TO HIT THEM with both the Torid and the Tonkor, The torids damage rivals the tonkor, the torids statis is better then the tonkor. The Torid has the same ammo economy as the tonkor. If you run out of Torid Ammo, go back to using a Scavenger Aura with your Vectis. Because its literally like running out of vectis ammo. You have to Hur dur 0% accuracy lick a wall with the torid to not stay in the positive for ammo.

But the atomos is still an instant reward fire and forget weapon, that goes in your secondary slot, Due to Pistol mods being infinitly better then primary mods, this weapon closely competes with the amprex even with the amprex crits. And its Damage type of Fire is quite effective vs Infested. Not to mention that Pistol ammo might actually be more common then rifle ammo, if not then its about the same.

Hikou Prime, I don't even. as Irorone said, this weapon is used in many sustain comps. This weapons damage is insane, simply put. With a static damage output, this weapon runs DPS circles around the Kulstar. And Seriously, if you have accidentally killed yourself from full shields with this weapon, you should quit video gaming. This weapon with full firerate actually takes about 1-1.5s of you firing it at yourself to actually kill you, assuming your an unranked frame. Reguardless, Can you accidentally kill yourself with a Kulstar? YES Can you accidentally kill yourself with Hikou, Yes, but its about as likley of killing yourself with a Tonkor.

I dont think you've used the ignis either. This weapon's damage is insane, and it carries Low to mid level missions with abo@#&*ly no effort thanks to base Punch through, ludicrous range, and inbuilt multishot.

 

Now, have you actually concidered what you want? You want to remove the tonkor from the game. You want to nerf every stat, simultaneously. This is insane. Completely unreasonable. What weapons do you like? I wanna nerf those weapons, I don't care if they're good or not. LETS JUST NERF EVERYTHING. IT ALL KILLS ENEMIES. JUST NERF IT ALL. NERF EVERY WARFRAME. PEOPLE NOT USING OP WEAPONS RUIN MY FUN, NERF BALANCED AND UP WEAPONS. PEOPLE USING OP WEAPONS RUIN MY GAME, NERF OP WEAPONS. PEOPLE USING WEAPONS BETTER THEN MY MK1 BRATON RUIN MY GAME, NERF ALL BALANCED AND OP WEAPONS. PEOPLE USING WARFRAMES RUINS MY GAMEPLAY, NERF ALL WARFRAMES, PEOPLE USING CHAT RUIN MY GAME, NERF COMMUNICATION, PEOPLE RAGING ON THE FORUMS RUINS MY GAME, REMOVE THE FORUMS.

TL:DR

PEOPLE RUIN MY GAME, MAKE WARFRAME SINGLE PLAYER.

You're my hero breh.

[fatpig84]

Personally I can't stand the Tonkor, but when you see MR5s in the Sortie, you know that is what they gonna use.
Barring high end Prime bling, which I prefer them not to use first since they might get ripped off in trade.

Simply put how many weapons are good in high end content even with light modding ?
Not many. 

The Tonkor just happens to be extremely functional even with 0 forma.
The Soma / Soma Prime is in a similar boat as well.

Both just happen to be crit weapons though.

[TheLexiConArtist]

58 minutes ago, (XB1)XiiX ToM XiiX said:

Steady on there with your thesaurus mate. You and OP are saying, "I don't like it or use it and no one should use it if they're in your squad, so nerf it for everyone else cos they're selfish." Fun = Selfish to you and don't make stuff up, I never said that, you're twisting words.

No thesaurus was used in the making of that post or any other. Unless double-checking that "lingual" was just as valid as "linguistic" in that context counts. (It doesn't, that's dictionary definition, not thesaurus.)

What didn't you say? "I'm right because I said so"? Not in those exact words, but let's take a cross-section of your posts:

 

 

Quote

If you don't like it don't use it. Nerfing a fun weapon just because it's strong is unfair on everyone who put the time into them.

Claims asserted. No evidence to back up claims. (Subsequently refuted by others: people put time into things obsoleted by the Tonkor too, equally unfair as nerfing the Tonkor would be; not using does not prevent being affected)

Quote

Simple solutoion, don't play randoms or with tonkor users. Your reasons to nerf it are selfish.

Claim asserted and fallacious solution suggested. No evidence given. (Claims subsequently refuted by others: good of the many vs. good of the few selfishness.)

Quote

I never play randoms and I don't think you know what selfish means tbh. I rarely even use Tonkor anyway. So get back to me when you understand what selfish means.

Anecdotal factoid of own Tonkor usage (or lack thereof). Previous claim reasserted solely through casting aspersions on the opposing party.

Quote

Grasping at straws with that. OP wants to nerf it cos he doesn't use it. Normal people who enjoy and play games for fun don't want everything nerfed cos then there will be nout good. Just don't use it, simple but that's apparently a limitation. It's easy to make your point of view look nice but make others look bad. Plenty of top tier weapons to use but I guess you can stick to your OP frame Trinity and weebsword prime.

Presumptuous claims of motivations. Previously suggested 'solution' repeated. Claim asserted (plenty of other weapons) without evidence, already refuted by others (several weapons already fielded for their limitations vs. output).

Quote

Yeah I totally said stop playing online. Get off youre high horse and get over yourself and stop being selfish. I play with Tonkor user and easily get more kills. It doesn't stop people from playing at all, you're making crap like that up. How about I speak to you like an elitist cos you clearly are one. Get good and just play the game without complaining. Easy enough so go do that, you very special snowflake.

Anecdote (I get more kills than Tonkor user X), irrelevant. Refutation of a claim made by someone else, with no evidence. Further ad hominem attacks to the people in support of the opposing side of the argument.

All claims made and repeated, no actual evidence in mathematical or logical forms. QED, you maintain a position of "I'm right because I say so".

 

2 hours ago, cx-dave said:

In the meantime during actual gameplay: Tonkor vs Hikou

Meanwhile, on World's Most Anecdotal and Almost Certainly Fabricated Claims....

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by EDYinnit

[TheBrsrkr]

6 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Funny thing is, he can do this and has been able to do this for years.  He is better than ever at it now, though.  

Really? I would think that since Stomp isn't recast able until the first one's duration ends it wouldn't be a problem. Even then, the duration is pretty much average, and the range, while fairly large, isn't as big as some of the other abilities. Maybe if you go full on Stomp spam with negative duration, but that build leaves a lot to be desired. Rhino's main focus is on Iron Skin and Roar anyways. But I suppose it's possible. 

3 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Posting here because TheBrsrkr attended me.

Alright. If it's not enough for you, what would YOU propose then?

Ignoring the problem is not a solution. 

Like I said before, remove the ridiculous explosive crit modifier, and up the base damage to 375-425 thereabouts. Still a ton of damage, still red crit viable, but now the limiting factors are actual limiting factors instead of poor justification. Give all the launchers an aim guide. 

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Really? I would think that since Stomp isn't recast able until the first one's duration ends it wouldn't be a problem. Even then, the duration is pretty much average, and the range, while fairly large, isn't as big as some of the other abilities. Maybe if you go full on Stomp spam with negative duration, but that build leaves a lot to be desired. Rhino's main focus is on Iron Skin and Roar anyways. But I suppose it's possible. 

Don't deny it. Yes your rhino is indeed able to shut down whole maps and also destroy more people's enjoyment than a tonkor. And 25m base range is btw the same as mirage's blind.

5 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Like I said before, remove the ridiculous explosive crit modifier

Into what exactly? Maybe it doesn't sound too bad...

[TheBrsrkr]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

Don't deny it. Yes your rhino is indeed able to shut down whole maps and also destroy more people's enjoyment than a tonkor. And 25m base range is btw the same as mirage's blind.

There's still the whole can't recast until the first one is done part, which means enemies not in range will not be affected. Mirage's Blind goes through everything and takes about 4 seconds to be used again. Only the negative duration Rhino can really shut down a map (I think, never tried) and if he did, it would basically be a knockdown for all the duration it has. With that in mind paired with some enemies completely ignoring Stomp when they're knocked down already, and you'll have an ever increasing but still smaller horde coming at you in 3 or 4 casts. Then again, I have no idea hoe it would actually work since I've never tired. Maybe I'll ask Zarozian. 

 

8 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

.Into what exactly? Maybe it doesn't sound too bad...

Just remove it all, and modify base damage accordingly across the board. Just the auto bonus multiplier, not the actual crit chance. In fact, why not just add. 5 more crit damage to the Tonkor? 

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

There's still the whole can't recast until the first one is done part, which means enemies not in range will not be affected. Mirage's Blind goes through everything and takes about 4 seconds to be used again. Only the negative duration Rhino can really shut down a map (I think, never tried) and if he did, it would basically be a knockdown for all the duration it has. With that in mind paired with some enemies completely ignoring Stomp when they're knocked down already, and you'll have an ever increasing but still smaller horde coming at you in 3 or 4 casts. Then again, I have no idea hoe it would actually work since I've never tired. Maybe I'll ask Zarozian. 

Negative duration? Slap on stretch, overextended, primed continuity, constitution, fleeting expertise rank 3 and streamline and enjoy your spamming stomp of doom.

3 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Just remove it all, and modify base damage accordingly across the board. Just the auto bonus multiplier, not the actual crit chance. In fact, why not just add. 5 more crit damage to the Tonkor? 

Remove what? Crit damage? Wut? Or AoE headshots? What do you mean?

[TheBrsrkr]

2 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

.Remove what? Crit damage? Wut? Or AoE headshots? What do you mean?

Aoe headshot multipliers I mean. Make 3.5x crit damage 3.5x crit damage wherever it hits instead of giving extra for headshots. Then up the crit damage on the Tonkor to 3.0 from 2.5. 

5 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Negative duration? Slap on stretch, overextended, primed continuity, constitution, fleeting expertise rank 3 and streamline and enjoy your spamming stomp of doom.

Then it'll have too much duration, and enemies not affected will just waltz in during the time. Also, that's still about 20 seconds at most, makes your iron Skin salty garbage and won't do a lick of damage. 

[IceColdHawk]

3 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Aoe headshot multipliers I mean. Make 3.5x crit damage 3.5x crit damage wherever it hits instead of giving extra for headshots. Then up the crit damage on the Tonkor to 3.0 from 2.5. 

It's getting 4x crit damage on headshots. So this won't change anything at all.

3 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Then it'll have too much duration, and enemies not affected will just waltz in during the time. Also, that's still about 20 seconds at most, makes your iron Skin salty garbage and won't do a lick of damage. 

Rhino Changes:

The following changes have been made to Rhino, and are available for all players immediately:

Rhino Stomp has received the following changes:

• Fixed 'double getup' when enemies affected by Rhino Stomp get ragdolled.
• Rhino Stomp is recastable now and picks up new enemies in range.

 

Welcome to U18. (also mirage will also lack strength for 1 and 3 when building on prism. so your argument in terms of defending rhino compared to mirage is invalid)

Edited April 7, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[TheBrsrkr]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

It's getting 4x crit damage on headshots. So this won't change anything at all.

It's getting 4x of it's total crit damage, which would make 2.5x crit 5.0x on headshot, then doubled again for more damage because of the crit. I propose we take out the headshot so that this doesn't happen, and just apply the raw crit multiplier of 2.5x, then we up the Tonkor's base crit from 2.5 to 3.0.

5 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Welcome to U18.

Rhino Stomp is recastable now? Whose bright idea was that? 

[cx-dave]

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

 

All claims made and repeated, no actual evidence in mathematical or logical forms. QED, you maintain a position of "I'm right because I say so".

 

Meanwhile, on World's Most Anecdotal and Almost Certainly Fabricated Claims....

 

Maybe you should look into how I did it and ask for nerfs for that as well. You know...for the sake of the game and no risk consistency.

[letir]

Just now, cx-dave said:

Maybe you should look into how I did it and ask for nerfs for that as well. You know...for the sake of the game and no risk consistency.

I'm pretty shure that you used famous Spore+Concealed Explosives combo, probably with 2 support frames (like Nova and Banshee) in tow, which why you get every kill. This also can be done with Ignis.

[cx-dave]

15 minutes ago, letir said:

I'm pretty shure that you used famous Spore+Concealed Explosives combo, probably with 2 support frames (like Nova and Banshee) in tow, which why you get every kill. This also can be done with Ignis.

It was a random public that I joined. I only remember one being Zephyr and there was at least one Tonkor. The fourth player and host typed WTF about two minutes after I joined and left.

[RealPandemonium]

19 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Really? I would think that since Stomp isn't recast able until the first one's duration ends it wouldn't be a problem. Even then, the duration is pretty much average, and the range, while fairly large, isn't as big as some of the other abilities. Maybe if you go full on Stomp spam with negative duration, but that build leaves a lot to be desired. Rhino's main focus is on Iron Skin and Roar anyways. But I suppose it's possible. 

Stomp has been recastable for a while now, but enemies still affected by a previous stomp won't have the effect refreshed.  They must have fallen to the ground to be affected by Stomp again.  Stomp's base radius is 25m, which is tied for the largest of all nukes or CCs.  This strategy has been around for years, but was overlooked for various reasons.  Now that Stomp is recastable and is affected by duration mods, he's better than ever at locking down full tiles (although the static 8sec duration was better for builds that dumped the duration stat.)

[(PSN)pepe-GER-]

On 5.4.2016 at 0:46 AM, Magneu said:

Wait what. Ogris has higher DPS than the Tonkor? I don't think we even need to fact check that.

As for self-damage removal causing people to stop using the Tonkor: I highly doubt that. I don't know the numbers, but large amounts of people lob grenades from a distance ("standard" users") and large amounts of people simply point-blank with it (what I dub "cheaters/exploiters/etc"); point-blanking with a grenade is just silly in any game, even for Warframe (not to mention the grenade is the single most powerful weapon in game).

Changing self damage would only really impact that second group. Explosives should have high risk, high reward, not no risk, extreme reward.

I have to clarifiy: i meant substained dps. Burst DPS are just shortsighed, in my mind.

"Explosives should have high risk, high reward, not no risk, extreme reward" If you see so, you have to change a lot of weapons in Warframe. Simulor? Why your Warframe doesnt affect by the singularity? Or the shockwave from sonicor? There are a lot of more examples what is not really correct in warframe. If you touch tonkor, you have to change a huge amount of weapons.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)pepe-GER- said:

I have to clarifiy: i meant substained dps. Burst DPS are just shortsighed, in my mind.

"Explosives should have high risk, high reward, not no risk, extreme reward" If you see so, you have to change a lot of weapons in Warframe. Simulor? Why your Warframe doesnt affect by the singularity? Or the shockwave from sonicor? There are a lot of more examples what is not really correct in warframe. If you touch tonkor, you have to change a huge amount of weapons.

Base sustained Ogris DPS: 175

Base sustained Tonkor DPS: 330.416

Still not counting headcrits which are in the Tonkor's favour, and modding up just increases the gap further due to crit superiority.

 

Yes, other weapons have some of the same issues, like the Sonicor and Simulors especially. That doesn't mean that any individual one of them doesn't need changing. The reasons for rebalancing any are the same as the reasons for rebalancing all.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

Nerf Tonkor = Bad Idea

Most players rely on tonkor to have fun... less fun, less players.  Less players, less money for game Dev.

If you don't like Tonkor, don't use it.   Tonkor is not being used against you, so why should you care?

Don't advocate to nerf weapons that other players enjoy. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Bad Idea... Most players rely on tonkor to have fun... less fun, less players.  Less players, less money for game Dev.

One low-MR, low-crafting-requirement weapon that supersedes all others.

Less variety, no weapons need to be purchased. Less purchases, less money for game dev.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

One low-MR, low-crafting-requirement weapon that supersedes all others.

Less variety, no weapons need to be purchased. Less purchases, less money for game dev.

Less fun, less players.  Nerf good weapons, players leave.  

If you don't like the weapon, don't use it. 

(so players will buy low powered weapons?  lol, no)