Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[Phobonaut]

25 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

There is no Tonkor spam and new players are going to feel the same way when any high ranked player comes in their game with an Ember, Saryn, Ash, Valkyr, Excalibur, etc., etc. etc. We have the ability to ruin any game of a new player. We just don't do it cause there's no fun in it and it's lame.

Wisdom brother, preach it.

One Excalibro with an Exalted Blade addiction and not even a 6 forma Tonkor will get a chance to get some kills. Someone once wrote some wise words on Warframe that basically came down to "The beauty of Warframe is that depending on the context, anyone can feel overpowered - unlike other games where there is always only a few meta-strats that are OP."

Edited April 18, 2016 by Phobonaut

[shyguyk]

8 hours ago, Phobonaut said:

All these walls of texts.

The Tonkor doesn't need to be nerfed. The Tonkor is popular, which goes to show there is a place for explosive weapons in Warframe.

We need to buff the other explosive weapons.

Especially the Mother of All Explosive Weapons, the Ogris. Give them an advantage so big, it's worth it blowing yourself up over and over and over again.

The problem with the tonkor is The lack of downsides

If it blew up the user, nobody'd complain about it wiping away hordes, because that person who shot it would be on the ground due to its ridiculous damage output.

Imagine if the simulor had self damage, would anyone still run it with mirage to annihilate everything?

[Phobonaut]

The low magazine and the wonky aiming are downside enough.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, Phobonaut said:

The low magazine and the wonky aiming are downside enough.

Magazine disproven due to the disproportionate reward when you actually do hit. Aiming mitigated by having a guideline and freedom to pointblank it (not that it's really all that difficult to begin with, by the time you've levelled it and gained basic understanding, much like any other projectile weapon). We've been over this.

[TheBrsrkr]

2 hours ago, Phobonaut said:

The low magazine and the wonky aiming are downside enough.

Why are these limiting factors in the first place, mind you? A low clip size punishes missing with reloading, which doesn't work here because missing isn't enough of an issue for you to care. You can reposition your next shot based on the first and kill everything anyway, so that's kind of a moot point,especially with the 2 second reload. Wonky aiming not only ties in with the first, making it just as useless, it compensates for itself with the aim guide. Even if it didn't have the aim guide, what makes it different from, well, any other launchers? Especially since you can just run up to the enemies and shoot them, unlike any other launcher where you'd end up dead. 

 

10 hours ago, Phobonaut said:

One Excalibro with an Exalted Blade addiction and not even a 6 forma Tonkor will get a chance to get some kills. 

Using an overpowered ability to Trump an overpowered weapon just makes both of them broken. We've been over this. Abilities aren't weapons. 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

3 hours ago, shyguyk said:

The problem with the tonkor is The lack of downsides

since when is the lack of downsides a problem in a weapon/frame?

that's really pretty silly, with all due respect

I like my weapons without downsides

[DeadlyPeanutt]

11 hours ago, Phobonaut said:

All these walls of texts.

The Tonkor doesn't need to be nerfed. The Tonkor is popular, which goes to show there is a place for explosive weapons in Warframe.

We need to buff the other explosive weapons.

Especially the Mother of All Explosive Weapons, the Ogris. Give them an advantage so big, it's worth it blowing yourself up over and over and over again.

this ^ and add penta and kulstar to the no self/team damage list, please.

kulstar and penta are too much fun, right up to the point where you team kill 2 squad mates because they rushed into the mob with their melee weapons just as you fired, or you didn't see that flipping railing nearby and blow yourself up. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[cx-dave]

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Magazine disproven due to the disproportionate reward when you actually do hit. Aiming mitigated by having a guideline and freedom to pointblank it (not that it's really all that difficult to begin with, by the time you've levelled it and gained basic understanding, much like any other projectile weapon). We've been over this.

Disproven numerous times by myself with actual in-game examples and other players who have used the weapon extensively. I also don't see the auto head shot issue that you have brought up numerous times either.

[shyguyk]

12 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Disproven numerous times by myself with actual in-game examples and other players who have used the weapon extensively. I also don't see the auto head shot issue that you have brought up numerous times either.

game doesnt count it as a headshot, but the damage is still applied as if it were by the explosion

[shyguyk]

36 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

since when is the lack of downsides a problem in a weapon/frame?

that's really pretty silly, with all due respect

I like my weapons without downsides

typically in games, weapons with a monstrous advantage have downsides.

Sniper rifles: long range, trash at groups.

Ogris: Hits groups, can kill self easily

Tonkor: Hits groups, Doesnt kill self?

Hell, why was saryn changed if DE didnt want things to have disadvantages?

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

19 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Disproven numerous times by myself with actual in-game examples and other players who have used the weapon extensively. I also don't see the auto head shot issue that you have brought up numerous times either.

• "disproven"
• video and logical mathematic evidence for
• anecdotes against

I'm sure on some planet your proof is quite convincing. Your weak link is: this is Earth.

 

Base damage of Tonkor blast: 325

Spoiler

325*2 on normal damage. 325*2.5*2*2 on crit. Consistent with autoheadshot and headcrit mechanics.

Base damage of Secura Penta blast: 375

Spoiler

375*2 on normal damage, 375*2*2*2 on crit. Consistent with autoheadshots and headcrit mechanics.

I have a Simulor screenshot doing the same as well, lurking around somewhere, I'm pretty sure.

 

Enemies don't magically alter their behaviour, their weakspots, their resistances or anything else in the Simulacrum compared to the rest of the game. Almost every enemy with a 'head' (particularly humanoids) takes automatic headshot.

You lose, good day sir.

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

Disproven numerous times by myself with actual in-game examples and other players who have used the weapon extensively. I also don't see the auto head shot issue that you have brought up numerous times either.

Are you really going to pull "proven with in game examples?", while saying I don't know what I'm talking about, and you have yet to post anything except for a single end of mission screenshot, screenshot of ridiculous damage with no buffs, and a profile statistic?

I provided video evidence proving that missing doesn't matter compared to other weapons, even weapons previously considered top tier. I even stacked the odds against the Tonkor by only spawning two enemies; the more enemies there are, the stronger the Tonkor gets compared to other weapons. You have yet to make a single argument supporting your position.

Those grossly inflated numbers for a single weapon pretty well demonstrate how devoted you are to protecting your over-bearing boom stick. You've used it for 3% of your total mission time, but racked up almost 100,000 kills? It seems like you apparently haven't changed your loadout many times since obtaining the Tonkor.

You've provided no valid argument. Other users have provided shaky-at-best argument. You're attempting to argue against hard facts, pure numbers, and game mechanics that, through pictures and videos, I and others have proven time and time again.

So go ahead. Dismiss my argument as having no substance while you attempt to brush me off as a "nerf-lover", or someone who gets salty when others outperform me. Because everyone reading this, and our exchange throughout the last couple pages, knows both sides. They know what I've claimed, supported, and proved. They know exactly how little you've done to respond to my arguments. And anyone who isn't entrenched in protecting the vast outlier that is the Tonkor knows who is wrong, and who is right.

To take a cue from the post above,

You lose, good day, sir.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Magneu

[Magneu]

2 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

since when is the lack of downsides a problem in a weapon/frame?

that's really pretty silly, with all due respect

I like my weapons without downsides

Because if one option is objectively better, players will, in all probability, flock to that weapon, thereby reducing gear diversity, while also promoting extreme powercreep; to not be considered MR fodder, new gear must equal or exceed the set powerlevel. It's in the long-term interests of DE to reduce the power-gap between the Tonkor and everything else.

[cx-dave]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Enemies don't magically alter their behaviour, their weakspots, their resistances or anything else in the Simulacrum compared to the rest of the game. Almost every enemy with a 'head' (particularly humanoids) takes automatic headshot.

You lose, good day sir.

Enemies aren't isolated units, they interact with each other. In the majority of instances, they also don't show up one at a time either. Your attention can't possibly be focused on every unit at all times. Claiming that you're able to prioritize the heavies and or most dangerous units at all times, when fighting off smaller ones nearby, is a downright lie. Try going further in a mission and you'll find out how the AI "cheats".

And don't come up with the game isn't balanced at whatever level non-sense. People enjoy challenges and the game allows you to go that far. Without that a lot of players would simply quit, because they aren't primarily into collecting. 

Regarding the Tonkor, we've been using it long before the update that discarded the head shot counts. No way that can affect stats to this extent, unless they retroactively deducted them. That was my point. Not that it didn't do it. Besides, Blast, Gas, Elec, and Syndicate procs, have always been head shots as well. Nothing new and not a problem.

Here's another image of a friend who's been using it since the beginning:

 

 

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

I provided video evidence proving that missing doesn't matter compared to other weapons, even weapons previously considered top tier. I even stacked the odds against the Tonkor by only spawning two enemies; the more enemies there are, the stronger the Tonkor gets compared to other weapons. You have yet to make a single argument supporting your position.

Fight some real enemies. I'd also like to see you in the Simulacrum with 2 lvl 135 Corpus Tech. You'll be dead before your shots land. Only in Tower defense will this hold up and in some Infested missions. So, a weapon can't be the best choice for a particular task now? Also, the higher the level the less effective the Tonkor will become. Melee will take you much further into many mission types, including T4 Survival. As stated numerous times, you can kill low level fodder just as fast or even faster through other methods. As an MR21 you should know this.

Your only complaint is that it can kill a lot and you see some big numbers.

 

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

You've provided no valid argument. Other users have provided shaky-at-best argument. You're attempting to argue against hard facts, pure numbers, and game mechanics that, through pictures and videos, I and others have proven time and time again.

I've posted pictures as well. Those were from real mission not some BS controlled environment. And to the other guy claiming reports are falsified and labeling whatever that doesn't suit him as anecdotes, that's more telling of yourself and the general attitude you display here. You don't have the actual high level gaming experience with the Tonkor, you barely have used the weapon, you also keep twisting and turning things around to suit your inaccurate argument.

In case you've forgotten, I refer you to the Tonkor vs Sortie Lephantis posts you made. First you called me stupid, because it was so obvious it wasn't going to do well there. Then, after my "anecdote" regarding the mission and "falsified" weapon stats, you did a 180. Had a good laugh on that one.

 

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

Those grossly inflated numbers for a single weapon pretty well demonstrate how devoted you are to protecting your over-bearing boom stick. You've used it for 3% of your total mission time, but racked up almost 100,000 kills? It seems like you apparently haven't changed your loadout many times since obtaining the Tonkor

Go ahead and view my profile, before you come up with even more nonsense. I use the Tonkor for specific missions where a lot of kills in a short time frame are possible and useful to the team, where I need to stealth kill a group, or solo when I was going for things like the first spot for Ceres - Gibii, which I actually couldn't manage with the Tonkor. The Ancients with their hooks were becoming too lethal. I had to do it by other means. 

BTW, are you going to cry for a nerf of my Rakta Cernos as well? It never misses and has racked up over 5500 kills with 0% play time. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by cx-dave

[cx-dave]

Two videos showing power gap between Tonkor and Melee. It's in DE's interest to reduce that power gap.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2aFl5eG1QTUEyZkE

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2NS05MGYwbnRNTzA

Edited April 19, 2016 by cx-dave
edited links

[shyguyk]

19 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Two videos showing power gap between Tonkor and Melee. It's in DE's interest to reduce that power gap.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2b0NIeDlLQVU4Wlk

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2ZjVONjdjN3N6T1E

 

Tonkor doesnt rely on a power to get its full effects.

Not saying covert lethality is good, (its a band aid to make daggers good at SOMETHING) but please repeat that without powers intervening.

Or if you dub that "unfair" do it with loki's 4x stealth multiplier. Unless you have a squad of 4xCP, Melee's probably much slower

[cx-dave]

20 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

Tonkor doesnt rely on a power to get its full effects.

Not saying covert lethality is good, (its a band aid to make daggers good at SOMETHING) but please repeat that without powers intervening.

Or if you dub that "unfair" do it with loki's 4x stealth multiplier. Unless you have a squad of 4xCP, Melee's probably much slower

I guess sarcasm doesn't show very well on forums. My intention was to show how skewed their examples are. They're just there to misguide the unaware.

Edit:

You brought up a good point nevertheless. At higher levels as shown in that video you won't be able to maintain your aim for Argon Scope to activate. It will require you to be invisible, protected by powers, or be at an ineffective shooting distance.

Edited April 19, 2016 by cx-dave

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

I've posted pictures as well. Those were from real mission not some BS controlled environment. And to the other guy claiming reports are falsified and labeling whatever that doesn't suit him as anecdotes, that's more telling of yourself and the general attitude you display here. You don't have the actual high level gaming experience with the Tonkor, you barely have used the weapon, you also keep twisting and turning things around to suit your inaccurate argument.

In case you've forgotten, I refer you to the Tonkor vs Sortie Lephantis posts you made. First you called me stupid, because it was so obvious it wasn't going to do well there. Then, after my "anecdote" regarding the mission and "falsified" weapon stats, you did a 180. Had a good laugh on that one.

Note: If the videos are crummy quality, I apologize. Youtube will have to process them into higher qualities, which may take some time.

 

First off, I wasn't the one making the Sortie Lephantis argument. EDYinnit proved that the Tonkor needed a massive handicap in order to have the example weapon, Soma Prime, even come close. In any case, that's a fringe case against a single boss with a specific sortie enhancement; hardly normal gameplay. Way to Texas Sharpshooter though, except you missed the target. Also, claiming he doesn't target heavies first is a fallacy; by default the Tonkor targets everything in its radius. By virtue of aiming at the largest threat, you eliminate the smaller ones. Enemy "interactions" are limited to buffs (Healers affect all weapons equally, by the way), shields (hiding in nullie shields)...and that's about it. All of your "interaction" arguments fall flat when you consider that a player on the team could be running Frost, who is pretty much a mobile middle finger to most every enemy threat, as long as he keeps SG up, or any other frame that can protect the team.

Secondly, the enemies I provided were an example of mid-high tier enemies for gameplay that DE intended to be played. You only meet level 135 enemies by stretching an endless mission past a certain point; sortie three survival ends at the highest of 110-120, which is the intended end-level balance point. Just because the game can scale to infinity doesn't mean weapons and frames need to be able to keep up.

Thirdly, the Tonkor is the superior choice in any gamemode where enemies clump up...which is to say, most of them besides single run missions (which only see levels above 50 in sorties). Claiming that, as levels climb the Tonkor becomes less effective is extremely fallacious. Every weapon becomes less effective; the difference is, the Tonkor's massive damage allows it to scale much farther than other weapons, with the added bonus of ammo efficiency. Yes, you can kill low level fodder more efficiently with other strategies; who actually cares about low level enemies?

 Oh, and by the way; as stated many times before, the "headshot bug" that was fixed was AOE weapon kills always counting towards headshot achievements. As EDYinnit repeatedly proved and you've chosen to ignore, the Tonkor consistently headshots. Due to its crit advantage, said headshots do disgusting amounts of damage.

Fourth, I'll humor your claim about level 135 Techs, even though the game isn't balanced for them. I'll even quadruple the number to eight. Prepare yourself, I may use CC or protection skills to protect myself, as nobody is stupid enough to try to facetank multiple level 135 Techs besides godmode frames, as Techs are one of the highest DPS enemies, at a massively outscaled level. I hope Rhino Prime, an extremely common frame, isn't too OP for you?

I also never claimed a weapon can't be the best choice for a particular task, although I somewhat agree. However, the Tonkor still wins, as it applies its chart-topping DPS in an AOE; that alone skews the scales heavily in its favor.

First off, lets take a fully charged Scarab Swarm Inaros, blocking with an 85% DR melee weapon against said eight techs. The highest EHP frame in the game brought down that fast. Hmm. Guess we'll have to use some sort of protection, as I only see two ways of surviving without outright godmode like Defy or Hysteria or Blessing, or hard CC like Bastille (aka, stacking the deck even further against me);

this (which i defend as a perfectly balanced strategy; high-risk (watch that health and energy and timers or else!) and high-reward (don't worry I killed the last guy). I really don't like Shadow Step cheese:

 

or this (nothing need be said. Invisibility powers are rather silly):

 

So here's a common frame, 170% strength, only armor mods (no health mods), using two powers (I avoided using Stomp because you'd probably accuse me of cheating) and exceeding your challenge:

Am I going to use Oberon again? Hell no, because (a) why would I charge into the combined firepower of eight level 135 Techs with no DR, and (b) I thought you use the tool best suited for the job? Or does that only apply for the Tonkor?

...oh alright. I can already hear people complaining I changed too many variables. Here's me using Oberon, and *gasp* casting two powers! How dare I! a single target hard CC and a temporary radial stun? Tsk tsk Magneu, how dare you skew results?

...except this is Warframe, and I think using two casts of not very effective powers is justified.

 

Best part? That Tonkor build wasn't even optimized by a longshot:

Fifth, "you posted pictures". Congratulations. You posted a picture of a red-crit and an end mission screen (it's anecdotal because it could have been any Infested Excavation mission). Meanwhile, I posted detailed comparison between the Tonkor and the highest crit damage sniper, and videos comparing the previous top tier weapon to the Tonkor. I've now posted videos meeting your challenge (which is outside of intended game balance), and succeeded. 

Sixth, why do I care about your Rakta Cernos? You've got 5k kills, big whoop (how many of those are from Blight at low levels?). It's a sharpshooter weapon; if it could crit for 100k on a level 135 Gunner, I'd probably defend it, as it's single target, has travel-time, and rewards skill based usage. Nice attempt at a red herring though.

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

Two videos showing power gap between Tonkor and Melee. It's in DE's interest to reduce that power gap.

2 hours ago, cx-dave said:

I've posted pictures as well. Those were from real mission not some BS controlled environment.

"I'll take hypocrisy for $2000, Alex."

Alright, comparing the Tonkor to a mod coded to OHK...under certain circumstances. You had to use a power to open the finisher (which, by the way, invalidates any complaints you have about my power usage in the videos above); that's not even melee. That's you being untargetable to everything but AOE (which, assuming you're either away from the group or solo, means you won't get hit), and bypassing any sort of scaling against helpless enemies, which is extremely far from melee; managing distance, Life Strike, health, energy, and buffs, while keeping your combo counter up and chaining combos. A shame that it's single target and has a slower animation, slowing down killing vs the Tonkor even more. 

I challenge you this; use any other weapon besides the Tonkor on those same enemies (I'll hold my tongue on repeating the claim you made on me regarding said enemies), and try to kill them in the same amount of time, or with the same ease. Video evidence would be nice. Have fun. Oh, don't worry; I already made an example video for you:

So, a top tier, largely considered the best in game shotgun is that much less effective? More ammo used, more time spent scoped in, longer time to kill...shouldn't a more focused weapon like that deal higher single target DPS compared to an AOE weapon that has no close range downsides? Why not? Give me a valid reason why you believe this type of imbalance is acceptable.

You've also completely missed my previous point(s) about power creep, and how bad it is for long-term game health. An outside observer of Warframe would see gameplay, see the Tonkor, and raise an eyebrow on how something so powerful, but so easy and safe to use, is allowed in game. Go back and watch the two Extra Credits videos, and actually listen. Power creep is bad for a game, period. However, it is somewhat unavoidable. What a developer shouldn't do is allow an egregious outlier like the Tonkor to exist, as it sets a new standard for power and usage, which ultimately results in a largely sped up creep process, shortening potential game life-span.

^{My favorite part of your reply is where you left out the quote describing exactly what it is you just did in responding to me.}

 

 

[Omnimorph]

I think the solution to all explosives is the same, have all explosive weapons inflict some reasonable proportion of self-damage (e.g. 25% of both shields and health) - enough to be a deterrent to careless use, and to prevent them from being the most "viable" things to use (*koff* Tonkor *koff*), but not enough to kill the fun by killing oneself due to easily-made slip-ups in such a fast-paced game.

You have to balance the balance factor against the fun factor against the "realism" factor.

Since explosive weapons are notionally supposed to do tons of damage you're already using explosive weapons in a "realistic" way, so there's no excuse for not accepting some self-damage, you've already accepted "realism". 

But if they do too much damage with no downside everyone's going to use them all the time, so balance goes out the window.  It's fast getting to the stage where the Tonkor and Synoid Simulor are just about all you ever see people using.  And why not, if they're by far the most powerful weapons?  But that is bad design.  (In fact, I've no idea what DE were smoking when they designed the Tonkor, it was always going to be OP even on paper with all that crit on an explosive weapon.)

But at the same time it's got to be fun and relatively easy to use in a fast-paced game, so "realistic" self-damage is out the window. Just something like 1/3 of your health should be sufficient to keep everything in line.  Mobs should also do the same self-damage.

What would be the proportion? Maybe about 1/4 to 1/3 of one's shields and health?  Something of that order.  (And have "rocket jump" as an alt fire that does extremely reduced self-damage (as is).)

(Personally, I would also like explosive weapons to do a smaller proportion of damage to team-mates too (maybe 1/6 to 1/4), but that probably wouldn't fly.  The game doesn't have too many trolls, but it probably wouldn't be wise to have that sort of thing in the game until and unless there's a "blind" vote-kick function.)

[Phobonaut]

7 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

this ^ and add penta and kulstar to the no self/team damage list, please.

kulstar and penta are too much fun, right up to the point where you team kill 2 squad mates because they rushed into the mob with their melee weapons just as you fired, or you didn't see that flipping railing nearby and blow yourself up. 

I dunno about the Penta, but the secondary explosives could certainly be improved with that same Tonkor self-damage cap.

[Donnell]

Self damage could be alright as long as it isnt too painful.

Yeah, we got team mates in the way, some small corridors, pesky kubrow or even an enemy that has got too close. However this should be the consideration for using such a strong weapon. If you want to use power, you need to weigh up the risks right? It's like the choice in other games: heavy weapons guy is an easy target because they're slow but their weapons are super strong.

[cx-dave]

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

Thirdly, the Tonkor is the superior choice in any gamemode where enemies clump up...which is to say, most of them besides single run missions (which only see levels above 50 in sorties). Claiming that, as levels climb the Tonkor becomes less effective is extremely fallacious. Every weapon becomes less effective; the difference is, the Tonkor's massive damage allows it to scale much farther than other weapons, with the added bonus of ammo efficiency. Yes, you can kill low level fodder more efficiently with other strategies; who actually cares about low level enemies?

 

Daggers become more effective actually. They put the Tonkor to shame at higher levels.

 

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

First off, I wasn't the one making the Sortie Lephantis argument. EDYinnit proved that the Tonkor needed a massive handicap in order to have the example weapon, Soma Prime, even come close. In any case, that's a fringe case against a single boss with a specific sortie enhancement; hardly normal gameplay. Way to Texas Sharpshooter though, except you missed the target. Also, claiming he doesn't target heavies first is a fallacy; by default the Tonkor targets everything in its radius. By virtue of aiming at the largest threat, you eliminate the smaller ones.

 

Yeah that was after the 180 lol. Of course your'e always aware of those heavy targets and they're always in your view and range right? Just patiently waiting for you to blow them up!  Again, the Tonkor won't damage that much at higher levels and remember you're also constantly moving in order to avoid fire. Thereby completely missing shots and wasting time reloading and re-positioning yourself.  This comes from a player that has pretty good accuracy (I think) with the weapon and lots of experience. Yet, I still don't use it in the great majority of missions.

It wasn't a fringe case either. The Infested Excavation Sortie 3 was better with the Vaykor Hek for instance. Not for damage reasons, but for actual usefulness. Hitting and killing an important target with certainty clearly outweighed whatever extra damage you could've dealt in that mission as a solo player. Enemy spacing, levels, and mixture of types of abilities or treats they have, makes direct hits, including the AOE damage, at higher levels much less significant. 

 

3 hours ago, Magneu said:

So here's a common frame, 170% strength, only armor mods (no health mods), using two powers (I avoided using Stomp because you'd probably accuse me of cheating) and exceeding your challenge:

 

It wasn't really a challenge. I was pointing out that you need powers or take risks that would end up in certain death to use the Tonkor to the best of its ability. Besides, Rhino reaching and surviving those Corpus levels in an actual game without assistance is unrealistic. Toxin bypasses shields. Therefore, those targets specifically can be killed relatively easily at lvl 135.

 

I challenge you this; use any other weapon besides the Tonkor on those same enemies (I'll hold my tongue on repeating the claim you made on me regarding said enemies), and try to kill them in the same amount of time, or with the same ease. Video evidence would be nice. Have fun. Oh, don't worry; I already made an example video for you:

 

Not sure what you're trying to prove here? Your videos perfectly show how unrealistic the Simulacrum scenario is. Enemies don't stand still waiting for you to shoot from the hip in a real game. In a T4S for instance, fire will come from all angles. Chroma powers will also pretty much be useless at those levels. You're not going to reflect damage back and stun locking any ranged enemies with a high power build. Let's also not discard the Ancient healers blocking your damage, Nullifiers rushing out of the doors and coming at you with high speed, and finally the beloved energy draining enemies that will drop you down to zero in no time. This is one of the major reasons it's also dangerous to play Valkyr.

See video. You can do this all day even with level 350+ Eximus enemies in an actual game at the same speed. No Tonkor can compete.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2emtTWXZ0SGVrNnc

 

[Drasiel]

On 4/15/2016 at 11:30 AM, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Tonkor? Easy Mode? What? I've lost count of the number of times I've had Tonkor grenades go sailing between some grineer's legs to detonate harmlessly on the other side of the room. Compared to every other launcher, Tonkor requires tons of skill because unlike Ogris it sails in a ballistic arc and unlike Penta you can't detonate it at will. (And unlike Torrid you don't get persistent AOE.) The base premise here seems faulty. Tonkor is balanced by the fact that it rewards good aim with damage and punishes bad aim with a tiny magazine and fairly long reload speed.

Yes tonkor is easier than the other explosive launchers (except maybe the stug, but stug is bizarre to begin with and everybody seems to have forgotten it) It is surprisingly nearly as easy to miss with all launchers (again except maybe the stug) due to many having low travel velocity and invisible but blocking hitboxes that are everywhere in this game (I'm looking at you railings). Penta, Secura penta, and stug all have arcing trajectories, with the penta classes being arguably more difficult because you have to manually trigger the explosion of them at the correct time on even direct hits and wait for previous projectiles to explode before firing a second round unless laying traps. Don't forget pentas also have a max of 3 grenades active at any given time. Ogris has charge time and much higher reload and excruciatingly low flight speed compared to other lobbing style explosives which should be drastically slower. Only the Torid has a worse flight speed among primary explosive launchers which is arguably made up for by it's persistent 10 second damage over time and ability to stick to targets. Tonkor meanwhile is tied with kulstar and stug for having the fastest reload speed and is 0.5-1 second faster than all of the Primary launchers. The small mag is a slight drawback but considering that angstrum and kulstar both only have a mag of 3 and the angstrum requires charging to deal it's full damage I don't think it's out of line for a primary launcher that deals such extensive damage in both amount and range.

On 4/15/2016 at 11:30 AM, Cpl_Facehugger said:

What Tonkor has amongst its siblings is damage and a lack of self damage. That's basically it, and Tonkor pays for those two traits by having a much higher skill ceiling. This makes it have a niche in high level play, but its flaws are even more punishing in high level play because enemy damage output is such that if you miss, you're clemmed by the return fire. In low level play Tonkor's DPS is superflous - when a Penta oneshots your enemies, there's little reason to use Tonkor unless you're bad at judging grenade distance. Tonkor is also at a disadvantage against nullifiers in a way that basically no other launcher is since it just bounces off the bubbles instead of detonating and can't be detonated on the floor.

What tonkor has is: tied for fastest reload speed among all explosive Launchers, tied for second highest fire rate among all explosive launchers, tied for fastest fire rate among primary launchers, Above average base explosion damage among all explosive Launchers, Second highest flight speed of all lobbing explosive launchers, Highest flight speed of primary lobbing explosive launchers, Largest guaranteed explosion radius among all explosive Launchers, Highest Crit chance among all explosive launchers, and highest Crit damage among all explosive Launchers.

On 4/15/2016 at 11:30 AM, Cpl_Facehugger said:

And honestly, I've seen exactly this same argument you're making here applied to both Ogris and Penta in the past. And even stuff like Kunai back in the distant mists of damage 1.0. I think it' a fundamentally flawed argument because Tonkor and other weapons like it are extremely dependent on player skill. A hypothetical MLG uberplayer who never misses will indeed get great performance out of the Tonkor. But this is the concept working as designed because a balanced game rewards player skill. A normal player? That's an awful lot of grenades sailing off to detonate harmlessly on the other end of the room. Tonkor on paper is capable of tremendous DPS but in practice it's a lot more varied and less reliable.

Yeah and the ogris, penta, and every other launcher of the time had their ammo changed to special in order add another level of drawbacks to overpowered weaponry. If you recall at the time they used rifle ammo and had near unlimited killing power because of it. Yes the kunai was overpowered in damage 1.0 but that's not just because of it's stats, it was because of it's damage type which ignored armour. The tonkor doesn't just out dps on paper, it very nearly out stats all comparable launchers and it's stats excepting damage are far closer to a secondary slot launcher which don't receive the benefits of explosive launcher specific mods such as firestorm.

On 4/15/2016 at 11:30 AM, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Like, skimming this thread I see a lot of "this gun is too easy, you can easily wipe out a whole group of enemies at once!" arguments and I have to boggle my eyes at this because it feels like everyone who says that has never actually tried to use the Tonkor. Now I'm not the most ~skilled~ player, but there are tons of times when I miss with Tonkor - sometimes I misjudge a shot because I'm taking a snapshot immediately, sometimes I misjudge the bounce... And each miss is hugely punishing because of that two round magazine. Tonkor's effectiveness is so varied that I don't even use it in sorties any more unless I'm lulzing around because things like Vay Hek and Synoid Simulor give me more reliable damage output and I'm generally interested in completing sorties as fast as possible. I know technically every gun is dependent on hitting the enemy, but I can think of basically no other weapon that's as hard to hit with as Tonkor. 

By the same argument a miss with the pentas is worse because while it has the same reload you have to watch out for missed shots killing you, or manually detonate ahead of shooting a new round, and it takes double the time to fire a new shot meaning you will take more damage between misses unless a tonkor misses both shots 2.5 times in a row. Oh and they are both lobbers and the flight speed of the tonkor's shots are faster meaning it's the more accurate of the two weapons. Plus aim guide on tonkor which while not completely brainless certainly give you at the very least a vague idea of where your shot will land which is more than the penta has.

On 4/15/2016 at 11:30 AM, Cpl_Facehugger said:

What Tonkor gives me is fun via a risky but rewarding play style that takes skill to execute reliably. So seeing a thread that's basic premise involves taking away that fun and isfounded on arguments wholly at odds with my experience both using the Tonkor and being in squads where it's used makes me sad. (P.S. I really have to wonder how you're getting outkilled by a Tonkor user in most content. Tonkor only starts to pull ahead in my experience when level scales so high that hitscan assault rifles w/shred fall off. Otherwise I'm usually beating my clanmates with their Tonkors for kills with my hugely OP Braton Prime in starchart content, and with my Soma Prime in everything up to high level void/sortie 3 content because by the time the Tonkor grenade hits, I've already gunned down the whole enemy group via shred.)

I'm not trying to take away fun. I've offered several suggestions I felt were fair to bring a substantial outlier among it's own class of weapons into a more balance place while retaining fun. You addressed none of my suggestions discarding them out of hand simply taking offence at me calling the weapon easy to use compared to other explosive launchers. If you don't like my suggestions that fine, do you have any of your own? 

Also just for fun I made graphs, which isn't necessarily directed towards you, it's just something I'm putting out there in general. Please excuse the unreliable conditional formatting to highlight best in category in the spreadsheet portion; google docs is not so good at having it work properly.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pdvmOT_RW2_pDKahdqTkS0lQFsxpGN0wEu6OPbWoiXM/edit?usp=sharing

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Also just for fun I made graphs, which isn't necessarily directed towards you, it's just something I'm putting out there in general. Please excuse the unreliable conditional formatting to highlight best in category in the spreadsheet portion; google docs is not so good at having it work properly.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pdvmOT_RW2_pDKahdqTkS0lQFsxpGN0wEu6OPbWoiXM/edit?usp=sharing

The Ogris most definitely does not have the same blast radius as the Pentas. From my testing (although I don't have a specific value), the Angstrum and Ogris (possibly Kulstar, difficult to test because of residual cluster damage) are less than the Pentas and the Tonkor.

Quick test procedure: Adhesive Blast, 8 Sensor Regulator (eximus) in Simulacrum

Adhere an explosive between the pair of Regulators on one side, see which ones along the line take damage from the explosion. Ogris and Angstrum failed to hit all 8 (only reaching to the third pair), Pentas and Tonkor hit all 8.

 

8 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Daggers become more effective actually. They put the Tonkor to shame at higher levels.

Meanwhile, Mag vs. Corpus still puts those daggers to shame at equally infinite levels, but let's carry on comparing apples to oranges to bananas.

What was that argument of yours? "It's balanced because it can be beaten at lower levels"? Well, Covert Lethality sucks because any other weapon outperforms it at low to mid levels.

Hell, even against literally the highest level enemies we are allowed to test against currently, your Covert Lethality video shows much more time taken than some trolling Broberon aim-glide casual use.

 

8 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Yeah that was after the 180 lol. Of course your'e always aware of those heavy targets and they're always in your view and range right? Just patiently waiting for you to blow them up!  Again, the Tonkor won't damage that much at higher levels and remember you're also constantly moving in order to avoid fire. Thereby completely missing shots and wasting time reloading and re-positioning yourself.  This comes from a player that has pretty good accuracy (I think) with the weapon and lots of experience. Yet, I still don't use it in the great majority of missions.

Of course you're always aware of those heavy targets and they're always in your view (to know to shoot a Sleep Arrow at them / perform other finisher-opening ability) and range (of actually executing the finisher), right? Just waiting for you to facestab them.

8 hours ago, cx-dave said:

It wasn't a fringe case either. The Infested Excavation Sortie 3 was better with the Vaykor Hek for instance. Not for damage reasons, but for actual usefulness. Hitting and killing an important target with certainty clearly outweighed whatever extra damage you could've dealt in that mission as a solo player. Enemy spacing, levels, and mixture of types of abilities or treats they have, makes direct hits, including the AOE damage, at higher levels much less significant.

So what was your argument in the first place? "Do Sortie 3 Excavation and tell me the Tonkor needs a nerf"; implying "it needs to be this powerful to complete the missions we're tasked with", defeated by your own point here. Of course you'd judge something else as being better anyway, that's what we call confirmation bias.

Now do the same thing with a sniper or bow and tell me it was easier still. You can't get much better at target priority than that!

 

8 hours ago, cx-dave said:

It wasn't really a challenge. I was pointing out that you need powers or take risks that would end up in certain death to use the Tonkor to the best of its ability. Besides, Rhino reaching and surviving those Corpus levels in an actual game without assistance is unrealistic. Toxin bypasses shields. Therefore, those targets specifically can be killed relatively easily at lvl 135.

Because you don't at all need a power, or several powers, to execute Covert Lethality finishers safely.

 

8 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Not sure what you're trying to prove here? Your videos perfectly show how unrealistic the Simulacrum scenario is. Enemies don't stand still waiting for you to shoot from the hip in a real game. In a T4S for instance, fire will come from all angles. Chroma powers will also pretty much be useless at those levels. You're not going to reflect damage back and stun locking any ranged enemies with a high power build. Let's also not discard the Ancient healers blocking your damage, Nullifiers rushing out of the doors and coming at you with high speed, and finally the beloved energy draining enemies that will drop you down to zero in no time. This is one of the major reasons it's also dangerous to play Valkyr.

See video. You can do this all day even with level 350+ Eximus enemies in an actual game at the same speed. No Tonkor can compete.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2emtTWXZ0SGVrNnc

"You can do this simulacrum scenario in an actual game against level 350 eximi"

Totally ignoring:

• Energy usage (in the video your Carrier brought 100 from the platform, and you got another 100 luckily from the enemies between steals and kills)
• Prowl's movement penalty slowing you from dealing with anything other than 8 enemies in the same space
• Enemy-specific issues, for example:
  • Corpus or Void Nullifiers protecting from prowl and sleep arrows
  • Disruptor Ancients drastically reducing Sleep arrow duration with their aura
• Energy Leech and Parasitic eximi also hastening the drain to zero
• Any potential crossfire/AOE if you aren't solo
• Shock and Venomous eximi passive AOE causing huge energy drain because of Prowl's extra hit for every tick of damage taken
• Reaching these theoretical level 350 enemies (however long that takes, I guarantee the energy tap runs dry long before)
• Enemies that are not susceptible to finishers (e.g. Ospreys) or only possess rearward finishers (Moa and Ancients, for example)

 

Let's assume a Survival to reach those unrealistic enemy levels. You have taken 20 seconds to kill 8 enemies (starting from first Finisher animation beginning).

1% = 1.5 seconds of air. 1 life support module = 4% = 6 seconds.

If you were able to continually chain enemies in this manner, the drop rate would still have to be an average 41.667% or greater to maintain air supply. 8 enemies * 41.667% drop rate = 3.333 modules * 6 seconds = 20 seconds of air.

Even halving that by assuming every enemy successfully triggers Prowl's steal, that's >20% drop rate required for a continual kill chain, which is itself unrealistic for all the other concerns bulleted above and your own point about enemies spawning all over the place instead of making an orderly queue.

 

So about that unrealistic point at which the dagger beats a Tonkor.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

11 hours ago, Phobonaut said:

I dunno about the Penta, but the secondary explosives could certainly be improved with that same Tonkor self-damage cap.

penta is lovely because you can trigger the rounds at any time.  a sweet air burst if you want, munch like SS.  kulstar is super fun because it spreads smaller bombs around, making it a wonderful area denial weapon.  However, team members don't seem to enthusiastic when i pop a few rounds into a mob just as they rush past me with their melee weapons, and get blown to bits.  I revive them, of course, but they're rather irritated. 

i ONLY use Penta and Kulstar in solo missions because team members are to unpredictable to use a team damaging explosive around.  If tonkor is nerfed to include team/self damage, watch it's use evaporate to nothing, along with a HUGE number of players being very pissed at game Dev. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt