Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[DeadlyPeanutt]

22 hours ago, shyguyk said:

If it blew up the user, nobody'd complain about it wiping away hordes, because that person who shot it would be on the ground due to its ridiculous damage output.

Imagine if the simulor had self damage, would anyone still run it with mirage to annihilate everything?

lol, so the idea is to take the most functional and fun weapons in the game and give them big flaws that would result in them not being fun anymore.

wow... now there's a business model that's doomed to failure.

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

8 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

penta is lovely because you can trigger the rounds at any time.  a sweet air burst if you want, munch like SS.  kulstar is super fun because it spreads smaller bombs around, making it a wonderful area denial weapon.  However, team members don't seem to enthusiastic when i pop a few rounds into a mob just as they rush past me with their melee weapons, and get blown to bits.  I revive them, of course, but they're rather irritated. 

i ONLY use Penta and Kulstar in solo missions because team members are to unpredictable to use a team damaging explosive around.  If tonkor is nerfed to include team/self damage, watch it's use evaporate to nothing, along with a HUGE number of players being very pissed at game Dev. 

Outside of Radiation procs, I'm pretty sure no explosives have full friendly-fire in the current game. The only person that would ever need reviving after such a mistake is you the user.

3 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

lol, so the idea is to take the most functional and fun weapons in the game and give them big flaws that would result in them not being fun anymore.

wow... now there's a business model that's doomed to failure.

Oh no, they might have to make/buy and use some other weapons if they're not able to faceroll with an overpowered one any more without killing themselves.

How awful for DE's cash flow.

Meanwhile, people that haven't "grown up" with such easymode still aren't killing themselves and still enjoy the output, and people that enjoy the weapons for what they are themselves, not their current aspects of utter imbalance, will learn to play around it and keep using what they like.

People that just want the path of least resistance will move down the line to shotguns or high-tier approachable rifles.

Win-win-neutral.

[shyguyk]

31 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

lol, so the idea is to take the most functional and fun weapons in the game and give them big flaws that would result in them not being fun anymore.

wow... now there's a business model that's doomed to failure.

 

if anything, nerfing the tonkor would make people buy MORE weapons to replace it. They wont have an all in one kill everything machine and might have to grab a couple.

And I'm pretty sure most plat is spent on cosmetics anyway.

What im suggesting isnt even a nerf if you have a brain and pay attention to where you shoot

Edited April 19, 2016 by shyguyk

[cx-dave]

56 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Totally ignoring:

Just for your information 2x Arcane energize. I'm constantly topped and it's around 2 hours of T4S to reach lvl 350. Unlike you, I don't post about stuff that I haven't actually done. Look into the spawn mechanic of the stationary life supports. There will be enough to sustain yourself. No point in further debating when one has to argue such basic things as the difference between the simulacrum and an actual mission.

[TheLexiConArtist]

22 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Just for your information 2x Arcane energize. I'm constantly topped and it's around 2 hours of T4S to reach lvl 350. Unlike you, I don't post about stuff that I haven't actually done. Look into the spawn mechanic of the stationary life supports. There will be enough to sustain yourself. No point in further debating when one has to argue such basic things as the difference between the simulacrum and an actual mission.

Time travelling to and activating capsules is time not chaining kills, and time to get back to what you were doing in melee range.

Arcanes added to the list of prerequisites in order to bring Covert Lethality to the level of a Tonkor unaided.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

1 hour ago, shyguyk said:

What im suggesting isnt even a nerf if you have a brain and pay attention to where you shoot

if you had a brain, you'd realize that the number of runners charging a player in any mid level mob numbers in the dozens at any given moment.  a player hardly has the ability to control, let alone keep track of that number of charging bots, some of whom are dropping from upper levels.  so a player carefully aims a shot with a self damaging explosive weapon and three charging bots run up on him just in time to cause him to blow himself up.  

the nature of the game is that self damaging explosive weapons are not going to be used.

therefore, your suggested nerf would result in tonkor being used as much as penta or kulstar... which is to say hardly at all. 

I can't recall the last time i saw penta or kulstar equipped by any player

kulstar's self damage reduces it's usability dramatically.  no wonder it's not used. I tested it recently in a T4 S mission and died for the first time in many such missions. 

your 'if you had a brain' nerf would result in a huge uproar from the MANY players who have fun with tonkor, and would result in the weapon's use dropping dramatically, to the level of kulstar. 

again, if you don't like the weapon, don't use it.  

Edited April 19, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[RealPandemonium]

19 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

if you had a brain, you'd realize that the number of runners charging a player in any mid level mob numbers in the dozens at any given moment.  a player hardly has the ability to control, let alone keep track of that number of charging bots, some of whom are dropping from upper levels.  so a player carefully aims a shot with a self damaging explosive weapon and three charging bots run up on him just in time to cause him to blow himself up.  

the nature of the game is that self damaging explosive weapons are not going to be used.

Warframe is a game that offers you tons of mobility, which you could use to stay out of your explosions' radius.  I think shyguyk is implying that people could learn to do something besides pointblanking with Tonkor.

Explosive weapons used to be widely used and wildly popular back when they were new and at the top of the damage curve; Ogris, Penta, Stug, etc in every mission.  They are not used now because of powercreeped weapons that perform as well or better but at no risk to the user.  

[shyguyk]

17 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

if you had a brain, you'd realize that the number of runners charging a player in any mid level mob numbers in the dozens at any given moment.  a player hardly has the ability to control, let alone keep track of that number of charging bots, some of whom are dropping from upper levels.  so a player carefully aims a shot with a self damaging explosive weapon and three charging bots run up on him just in time to cause him to blow himself up.  

the nature of the game is that self damaging explosive weapons are not going to be used.

therefore, your suggested nerf would result in tonkor being used as much as penta or kulstar... which is to say hardly at all. 

I can't recall the last time i saw penta or kulstar equipped by any player

kulstar's self damage reduces it's usability dramatically.  no wonder it's not used. I tested it recently in a T4 S mission and died for the first time in many such missions. 

your 'if you had a brain' nerf would result in a huge uproar from the MANY players who have fun with tonkor, and would result in the weapon's use dropping dramatically, to the level of kulstar. 

again, if you don't like the weapon, don't use it.  

Well, people have an issue with lowering its damage. And i understand that, but why should the high damage it has come without consequence?

you like to mention the word "fun" a lot. Do people have fun watching someone else obliterate everything, or obliterating everything themselves?

I never said the launchers had to be lethal, thats a problem with the non tonkor launchers, but it should deal enough self damage that the current playstyle of barrel shoving puts you on your &#!.

You can avoid runners charging on you by doing a simple bullet jump too. but I don't know "if you had a brain"

Spoiler

keep the "if you had a brain" thing going. I'm using it as a joke, but ironically people tell me brainless is more fun anyway

 

[TheBrsrkr]

4 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Just for your information 2x Arcane energize. I'm constantly topped and it's around 2 hours of T4S to reach lvl 350. 

You say this, completely oblivious to the main point of the argument:

4 hours ago, cx-dave said:

. I'm constantly topped and it's around 2 hours of T4S to reach lvl 350. 

This is not a reasonable time frame. 

[CapedBaldy]

10 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

This is not a reasonable time frame. 

Just pointing out that it was common to argue that level 50-60 used to be unreasonable.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, CapedBaldy said:

Just pointing out that it was common to argue that level 50-60 used to be unreasonable.

That is the difference between enemy power content being added and player power content enabling extension of an infinitely scaled mission to such a level.

Balance is based on the former (and therefore, augmented Sortie 3 wave/duration based missions are the uppermost possible balance point currently), the latter is just power creeping and emergent strategy to push farther past "soft capped" gameplay.

 

Letting the latter dictate the former is how we ended up with these artificial difficulty missions further highlighting the outliers. There's plenty of room on an exponent efficiency curve to be still trivial by the highest levels of effectiveness while being almost totally unassailable for the low, median and above-average alternatives. It's time that stopped, really.

[Magneu]

I've come to realize that providing hard evidence of Tonkor outlier status, explaining why power creep at this rate is so bad, and backing up my claims is just going to be met with ad hominem and ignoring criticisms. There's no way I'm going to be able to convince some users about the truth of my claims, something I should have realized waaaay back in this thread.

However, I'm still going to continue arguing my viewpoint, because conceding by silence is still conceding your viewpoint.

The Tonkor has the highest single target DPS of any weapon in the game (excluding the fringe example of Covert Lethality, which kills much slower, and requires certain frames to work). It applies this damage in the largest AOE of explosive weapons. It removes the only major drawback of explosives, namely self-damage.  It is easier to craft than any other explosive primary. It has superior stats to every other explosive weapon. Its critical damage makes its AOE damage automatically target headshots, and gain the additional multipliers therein.

As for drawbacks, namely travel time, clip size, reload speed...it either beats  or matches other explosives or travel-time weapons in every category. Even in the case of clip size, as EDYinnit and I have proved multiple times through in-game examples and calculations, a miss or two with the Tonkor, even with its small clip size and faster-than-average reload, is far more lenient than missing with any other weapon. At best case, you lose DPS and may have to take cover. At worst case, you blow yourself up and require a rez/revive.

The Tonkor has far too many advantages to be balanced by its paltry downsides, many of which it shares with other weapons. Leaving it as it is now is simply poisoning future game health.

 

[cx-dave]

19 minutes ago, Magneu said:

I've come to realize that providing hard evidence of Tonkor outlier status, explaining why power creep at this rate is so bad, and backing up my claims is just going to be met with ad hominem and ignoring criticisms. There's no way I'm going to be able to convince some users about the truth of my claims, something I should have realized waaaay back in this thread.

I never denied that power creep wasn't a problem. We are way beyond that however. Removing the Tonkor won't have the desired effect or any effect at all. If it's gone we'll still continue on our marry way. In order to fix the situation the whole system has to be redone. 

The easiest solution might be some sort of gating system. Your weapon damage could scale off the mission level. Once the enemies reach X level all stops are removed and everyone can go all out again. Whatever the solution I'm sure it's not that straight forward.

In the current situation the Tonkor has its sweet spot depending on mission and level, below and above that that you can kill faster by other means. That's why I brought up low level fodder and that's also the reason for the Tonkor not being a problem in and of itself. It can be countered by a range of other weapons in various missions types and levels.

27 minutes ago, Magneu said:

EDYinnit and I have proved multiple times through in-game examples

No you haven't. You completely ignore and overlook the aiming and firing mechanic in combat. You're not going to capture that in the Simulacrum or a simple formula. Sure in T4D you kill tons of enemies up until the Nullifiers begin to swarm you. Then, you need a secondary weapon or teammates with other weapons to efficiently deal with those so you can pick off the heavies. It requires a team effort to be effective. Take the same weapon to Survival and it isn't all that good, unless you have frames that slow the enemies down enough. Even the Tonkor has prerequisites to do well, but you refuse to acknowledge that. Instead, you claim it's the end all be all and you can out kill anything with it.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, CapedBaldy said:

Just pointing out that it was common to argue that level 50-60 used to be unreasonable.

Exactly! What happened? What changed between then and now? Three years of powercreep, that's what. And here we are, discussing more powercreep than ever. When will it end? 

[Vox_Preliator]

37 minutes ago, Magneu said:

I've come to realize that providing hard evidence of Tonkor outlier status, explaining why power creep at this rate is so bad, and backing up my claims is just going to be met with ad hominem and ignoring criticisms. There's no way I'm going to be able to convince some users about the truth of my claims, something I should have realized waaaay back in this thread.

However, I'm still going to continue arguing my viewpoint, because conceding by silence is still conceding your viewpoint.

The Tonkor has the highest single target DPS of any weapon in the game (excluding the fringe example of Covert Lethality, which kills much slower, and requires certain frames to work). It applies this damage in the largest AOE of explosive weapons. It removes the only major drawback of explosives, namely self-damage.  It is easier to craft than any other explosive primary. It has superior stats to every other explosive weapon. Its critical damage makes its AOE damage automatically target headshots, and gain the additional multipliers therein.

As for drawbacks, namely travel time, clip size, reload speed...it either beats  or matches other explosives or travel-time weapons in every category. Even in the case of clip size, as EDYinnit and I have proved multiple times through in-game examples and calculations, a miss or two with the Tonkor, even with its small clip size and faster-than-average reload, is far more lenient than missing with any other weapon. At best case, you lose DPS and may have to take cover. At worst case, you blow yourself up and require a rez/revive.

The Tonkor has far too many advantages to be balanced by its paltry downsides, many of which it shares with other weapons. Leaving it as it is now is simply poisoning future game health.

 

The problem, or at least part of it, is that it seems a fair portion of the community on the forums are immature in mentality.

Not really meant as an insult, but when 90% of the opposition is "no u" "i like it so its fine" "ur just a nofun loser" and "its balanced for six hour missions" it's hard to see it as anything else.  Not to mention the remaining 10% refuses to actually respond to most arguments, instead declaring themselves the winner arbitrarily.

Very few consider the difference between what is good for them personally, and what is good for the game as a whole.  This is honestly the first forum I've ever witnessed where things like "It's PvE so it shouldn't be balanced" isn't IMMEDIATELY shot down and laughed out the door because it's such an utterly terrible argument the writer deserves to be forever marked in shame.  It's like a good half of the forum just wants the player to be as strong as possible, no matter the consequences.  ANY nerf, or rebalance / rework that may or may not be a nerf, is met by SO MUCH anger and toxicity I have to wonder why infractions aren't handed out like candy on Halloween.

I feel like it should be a prerequisite to posting to read through https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ and watch all the Extra Credits episodes on balance before being allowed to post.

I could present my arguments for why the Tonkor should have something changed, but frankly everything I could say has been said repeatedly without adequate rebuttal.  Hey defenders, how about actually defending your position instead of hurling insults and fallacies?

I would not normally be this vocal, or this obtuse, but frankly I've pretty much lost all my patience with forums in general, and with what I've read most everyone trying to defend the Tonkor has lost all right for me to treat them with respect in the first place.

[TheBrsrkr]

53 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

No you haven't. You completely ignore and overlook the aiming and firing mechanic in combat. 

Because it is irrelevant. It simply does not matter that the Tonkor's firing mechanic is different, because it is the same as any other launcher's, and even better in some regards than them. Whatever pitiful justification you can come up with in missing is completely overshadowed by when you do hit, and 5 meters worth of enemies get the single most massive amount of damage by any weapon by itself. The hit is the same hit whether it happens in the Simaralcum, on a Corpus ship or in the Void. So is the miss . It is the same for every other weapon, which is why it is completely irrelevant to the topic. No matter how many times you repeat that it matters, it doesn't matter. It never will matter. Deal with it. 

[Magneu]

Adding on to what @TheBrsrkr said, this is a large argument I've been pushing

Tonkor deals highest single target DPS in the game excluding (a) chained sniper headshots, and (b) Covert Lethality, which is slow, single target, and close range, while also requiring powers.

Tonkor takes said damage, and applies it in the largest AOE of any explosive weapons

Said damage is further amplified by broken interaction between critical AOE damage always being applied to the head, which works in favor of the Tonkor's critical stats.

In addition, the Tonkor has superior supplemental stats compared to any other launcher, and is obtainable before any other launcher.

Why should a weapon get the highest single target DPS, but in a massive radius? How is that balanced? Why does the weapon get this capability, but not have any significant downsides?

In any case, I somehow overcame the aiming and firing mechanic and was able to land shots (a) while aim-gliding on a plane not at 90 degrees to the target, (b) immediately after a bullet-jumping, and (c) while moving erratically to avoid fire. All of which I would have had to do with any other weapon, except that the Tonkors potential damage is objectively superior by a margin that would make most any game-developer go to Defcon 1.

Does it suffer downsides to Nullifers? Slightly. You can always slide in and point-blank said Nullifier because, you know, lack of self-damage. No other launcher can be used like this. You can also just launch the projectiles and bet that one will explode while inside the bubble (not sure if this still works), seeing as Tonkor grenades always have a second chance to deal damage if you miss, either through timer detonation, or an enemy touching it.

Again, introduction of a fixed amount of self-damage, fixing AOE headshot damage, and changes to mechanics (shaped charge, only explode on contact, etc) would make the Tonkor fine in my book. Powerful is ok. Objectively superior to everything else is not.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

17 minutes ago, Magneu said:

-snip-

if you don't like the weapon, don't use it.  if you don't want the weapon on your squad, don't allow it. 

but respect other players enough to allow them to enjoy the weapons they enjoy and play their game as they wish.

in a PvE game, since the weapon isn't being shot at you, you have little reason to be concerned with how other players play their game. 

Edited April 20, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[cx-dave]

It's okay dude. Don't get mad. We'll just go in with Bless Trin and all is fine. Use Penta, Ogris, Kulstar, and blow everything to kingdom come without any risk of self-damage.

5 meters worth of enemies you say? How about we suck them all into a Vortex and the team unloads their Torids in there without any risk?

You want to remove the Tonkor from the game? Fine. Just don't have the illusion that anything will change for the better. Too many ways to mass kill, too many ways for experienced players to ruin your game or even completely destroy it. 

...and we haven't even addressed the enemies and game mechanics DE has deployed to counter our excessive powers. Those will have to go as well. No easy fix unfortunately.

[Kevrex97]

i actually hated using the tonkor i prefer the secura Penta cause it was so much better to use with being able to trick shot and manually tigger the explosive and still be able to get like 20k to 100k in dmg. But this is like compairing the Paris Prime to dread. both have thier ups and downs.

 

[Drasiel]

9 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

The Ogris most definitely does not have the same blast radius as the Pentas. From my testing (although I don't have a specific value), the Angstrum and Ogris (possibly Kulstar, difficult to test because of residual cluster damage) are less than the Pentas and the Tonkor.

Quick test procedure: Adhesive Blast, 8 Sensor Regulator (eximus) in Simulacrum

Adhere an explosive between the pair of Regulators on one side, see which ones along the line take damage from the explosion. Ogris and Angstrum failed to hit all 8 (only reaching to the third pair), Pentas and Tonkor hit all 8.

My test was naked weaponry on a single sensor drone. I used rhino with ironskin and marked the drone. Starting at 10m I would shoot at my feet until I dealt any damage to the drone. Because of the nature of the way point it's possible to be up to 0.5 of a meter off in either direction although I always tried to position myself at the higher end of the distance at all times.

The kulstars explosive range seemed to mostly depend on the positioning of the mines it throws which, from what I could test (5 different drones), seems as if it is centred on the mine and not the original projectile. 

For the penta the most accurate way to test blast radius is to press fire and detonate at the exact same time. Other wise you can get perspective and bounce/air issues. 

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

if you don't like the weapon, don't use it.  if you don't want the weapon on your squad, don't allow it. 

but respect other players enough to allow them to enjoy the weapons they enjoy and play their game as they wish.

in a PvE game, since the weapon isn't being shot at you, you have little reason to be concerned with how other players play their game. 

Red herring from my arguments.

I don't care too much about the impact on my game, although seeing one or two in every sortie squad is a bit grating.

What I care about is the standard it sets for future weapons. Power creep is not good for any game in the long-term; developers should do their best to minimize it. Anyone who's watched the Extra Credit videos should understand exactly why the Tonkor is not acceptable in its current state; denying that is denying the truth.

Also, you haven't given any response to my arguments. I'll repaste the question;

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

Why should a weapon get the highest single target DPS, but in a massive radius? How is that balanced? Why does the weapon get this capability, but not have any significant downsides?

I'd like an answer to that.

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

It's okay dude. Don't get mad. We'll just go in with Bless Trin and all is fine. Use Penta, Ogris, Kulstar, and blow everything to kingdom come without any risk of self-damage.

5 meters worth of enemies you say? How about we suck them all into a Vortex and the team unloads their Torids in there without any risk?

You want to remove the Tonkor from the game? Fine. Just don't have the illusion that anything will change for the better. Too many ways to mass kill, too many ways for experienced players to ruin your game or even completely destroy it. 

...and we haven't even addressed the enemies and game mechanics DE has deployed to counter our excessive powers. Those will have to go as well. No easy fix unfortunately.

This entire statement is a red herring, attempting to distract from the original argument. Here goes.

1. Bless Trinity is a problem unto itself promoting both bad gameplay (cheese) and bad development (enemy cheese). Not the thread for that.

2. All of those listed weapons have a fraction of the power the Tonkor does. Please go to the Silmulcram and test them against the enemies we both made videos of, and see how long it takes to kill them.

3. Vortex is a small AOE CC affect. I didn't use any position altering abilities in my videos, and it worked out great. Situational ability at best.

4. Torid is a DoT/status weapon. Kill time will 99% of the time be faster with the Tonkor. The only thing the Torid has over the Tonkor is the ability to possibly deny an area short term via status affects, and strip armor...slowly. Modded for Rad/Viral, we have abilities that can do that more effectively.

5. I don't want to remove the Tonkor; nice strawman (you really do love that, don't you?). I said I want to tone it down so it is a powerful, interesting, but not overbearingly OP weapon. These are my suggested changes.

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

Again, introduction of a fixed amount of self-damage, fixing AOE headshot damage, and changes to mechanics (shaped charge, only explode on contact, etc) would make the Tonkor fine in my book. Powerful is ok. Objectively superior to everything else is not.

Let's see if you actually address my comments this time, instead of trying to direct the discussion another direction.

[CapedBaldy]

I actually don't want a nerf just because DE has failed to show any form of elegance and minimal testing in nerfing.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

It's okay dude. Don't get mad. We'll just go in with Bless Trin and all is fine. Use Penta, Ogris, Kulstar, and blow everything to kingdom come without any risk of self-damage.

5 meters worth of enemies you say? How about we suck them all into a Vortex and the team unloads their Torids in there without any risk?

You want to remove the Tonkor from the game? Fine. Just don't have the illusion that anything will change for the better. Too many ways to mass kill, too many ways for experienced players to ruin your game or even completely destroy it. 

...and we haven't even addressed the enemies and game mechanics DE has deployed to counter our excessive powers. Those will have to go as well. No easy fix unfortunately.

I can use Bless Trinity, then I don't ever have to worry about the 2 second reload time of a Tonkor after I miss because, y'know, I'm immortal.

I can use a Vortex, then I don't ever have to worry about missing with the Tonkor because, y'know, they're all gravitated to a very obvious point.

 

Nice red herrings brah.

54 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

My test was naked weaponry on a single sensor drone. I used rhino with ironskin and marked the drone. Starting at 10m I would shoot at my feet until I dealt any damage to the drone. Because of the nature of the way point it's possible to be up to 0.5 of a meter off in either direction although I always tried to position myself at the higher end of the distance at all times.

The kulstars explosive range seemed to mostly depend on the positioning of the mines it throws which, from what I could test (5 different drones), seems as if it is centred on the mine and not the original projectile. 

For the penta the most accurate way to test blast radius is to press fire and detonate at the exact same time. Other wise you can get perspective and bounce/air issues. 

Because of the nature of projectiles in very close quarters to objects (floor included) being a bit screwy, that test might have been a little bit misleading.

Although I did make a mistake (it was second/third column of regulators, not third/fourth), here's comparison shots:

Ogris:

Spoiler

You can see the little turd-rocket stuck to the floor there between the Regulators, with column 3 marked for range (Regulators seem to have a little extra distance since they stick to the floor)

Third column took no damage after 5 shots to that general area between the first drones.

Penta:

Spoiler

Roughly the same place as the Ogris rocket (non-Ogris projectiles are far more visually prominent)

Didn't quite reach column 3 this time around. I guess last time I must've stuck it a tiny bit closer than the point of Ogris impact due to the visual difference. However...

Secura Penta:

Spoiler

Same place, shinier charge.

Reached Column 3.

And of course, the Tonkor...

Spoiler

Same place, slightly different view angle because I was in a hurry to catch a 'before' shot with health in it (to prove these weren't predamaged)

Easily reached column 3. Yes, that's a few pixels short of a full healthbar. It just didn't feel like critting, and Reggie Eximi are beefy units.

I also took some shots with the payload placed centrally between the four rightmost Regulators, and the results follow logically:

Penta/Ogris: Hit columns 2, 3 and 4 (from left), column 1 undamaged

Secura Penta/Tonkor: Hit columns 1, 2, 3 and 4.

 

I wouldn't like to say the exact ranges, but there's a definite disconnect. I feel like there's a little bit of improvement from the Ogris to even the regular Penta, though it might be a 1m or only 0.5m difference, but there's no question that the Secura Penta (and Tonkor) go noticeably farther.

It doesn't exactly help that Regulators sort of detach from their hitboxes and sink into the floor, either, but at least they're reliable and can't be argued to have moved before being crowd-controlled for a test.

Edited April 20, 2016 by EDYinnit
formatting OCD

[cx-dave]

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

4 hours ago, Magneu said:

Why should a weapon get the highest single target DPS, but in a massive radius? How is that balanced? Why does the weapon get this capability, but not have any significant downsides?

I'd like an answer to that.

Already answered multiple times. The weapon mechanic. Post whatever skewed evidence you can provided to make it look like it's the best choice for any or the great majority of missions, or feel free to ignore this comment. I couldn't care less.

 

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

What I care about is the standard it sets for future weapons. Power creep is not good for any game in the long-term; developers should do their best to minimize it. Anyone who's watched the Extra Credit videos should understand exactly why the Tonkor is not acceptable in its current state; denying that is denying the truth.

Instead of acknowledging power creep is part of a bigger wider reaching problem, that has been intensifying for the better part of a year, you chose to resort to scapegoating a single weapon again. It's clear that you and that other guy don't really care about balance. It's just this little thing called Tonkor that you're hellbent on having changed.

...or am I completely mistaken and you only react in this manner, because you see dishonesty and ulterior motives behind every word and sentence posted here? I wonder why that is...see you in 600 hours when you reach that 3100.

Peace out :)