Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[ClinkzEastwood]

Me entering the thread:

This is the most circle jerky circle jerk I've seen in a long time.

Just a reminder tho

“The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.”

-Nietzsche

[RealPandemonium]

6 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Could also be that said player thinks this is going to be really tough. I better pack my strongest weapons.

It probably won't be since there will probably be a Mirage/Mag/Ash (or my Rhino) there to make the mission a cakewalk.

You could also view it as the player ensuring that they are never challenged and never have to worry about killing enemies.  "This was gonna be tough, but crisis averted!" is more like it.

[Magneu]

6 hours ago, cx-dave said:

It does apply because re-balancing a powerful weapon touches everything. Players that typically use the same thing over and over, because it's easy, will then flock to the next thing in line. Whether that's a weapon or a power will matter little to them

 

I state they are also problems that need to be looked out. I'm concerned with weapon balance right now. As is, your statement implies that the Tonkor is ranked above said powers, which seems like a strange balance decision to me.

6 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Could also be that said player thinks this is going to be really tough. I better pack my strongest weapons.

Thank you for proving my point. "This mission is going to be tough, better pack the only weapon I think will work, because it's objectively better than everything else." 

If, when going into high levels, a player consistently only chooses one gun, they either (a) really like that gun, or (b) know that it's the best gun in the game. After looking at potential damage and ease of use, the Tonkor is the only choice for many players, as it is overwhelmingly powerful compared to everything else. 

It was sortie one, anyway. Hardly qualifies as challenging by the standards you've set in our discussion before. I thought that the Tonkor was objectively worse against low level enemies, according to you?

[Magneu]

@ClinkzEastwood just wondering, who are you addressing in that post? I feel as though I already know, but if I've made bad arguments, by all means, lay it on me.

[Drasiel]

On 4/19/2016 at 0:19 PM, EDYinnit said:

The Ogris most definitely does not have the same blast radius as the Pentas. From my testing (although I don't have a specific value), the Angstrum and Ogris (possibly Kulstar, difficult to test because of residual cluster damage) are less than the Pentas and the Tonkor.

Quick test procedure: Adhesive Blast, 8 Sensor Regulator (eximus) in Simulacrum

Adhere an explosive between the pair of Regulators on one side, see which ones along the line take damage from the explosion. Ogris and Angstrum failed to hit all 8 (only reaching to the third pair), Pentas and Tonkor hit all 8.

Quoting this post again to snag you. Okay so after using adhesive blast to stick both onto enemies directly and onto section floor that were at the appropriate distance I came up with these modified stats:

Ogris 4.5m It kept swapping between 4m and 5m whenever it seemed to feel like it.

Penta 5m the same.

Penta, Secura 6m one additional meter gained.

Tonkor 7m the same.

Torid 3.5m Like the ogris it seemed to change between 3 and 4 meters for no explicable reason.

When shooting the projectile into the sensor regulators it made a substantial difference depending on what part of the drone it attached to as well as vertical positioning. May have been caused by the drones being partially in the floor as is their nature.

[cx-dave]

5 hours ago, Magneu said:

Thank you for proving my point. "This mission is going to be tough, better pack the only weapon I think will work, because it's objectively better than everything else." 

If, when going into high levels, a player consistently only chooses one gun, they either (a) really like that gun, or (b) know that it's the best gun in the game. After looking at potential damage and ease of use, the Tonkor is the only choice for many players, as it is overwhelmingly powerful compared to everything else. 

Those were lower ranked players you were referring to. They generally have limited resources. In order to progress faster, it's only natural for them to invest in the most powerful items available to them first. I did the same, back then I put everything I had into the Quanta. Got over 160k kills with that weapon alone. I used it in every VOID mission where I needed fire power, until I learned more about the game and progressed. I'm sure they'll diversify In time if they stick with the game and continue to enjoy it. 

That's why you don't see many higher ranks constantly Tonkoring everything. We have a greater arsenal at our disposal and can fine tune our weapon choices. 

For instance, in the Sortie Corpus Rescue you referred to. I only killed a couple of enemies with a Mutalist Cernos I think for entertainment. Didn't actually have to kill anything. Just free the hostage and get out of there. Then, in yesterday's Raptor assassinate I found the Opticore with a puncture build to be a good choice. Sure Vaykor Hek was faster, but far more dangerous. Finally, today's Infested Defense. That was perfect for the Tonkor. Right tool for the job. I'm sure newer players will learn in time.

[ClinkzEastwood]

7 hours ago, Magneu said:

@ClinkzEastwood just wondering, who are you addressing in that post? I feel as though I already know, but if I've made bad arguments, by all means, lay it on me.

I read this thread and it feels like World war 3. So I just fire blind.

I never look at the user when I read posts anyway.

[SpinnningSideKick]

5 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

I read this thread and it feels like World war 3. So I just fire blind.

I never look at the user when I read posts anyway.

lol not the way I would have put it. But it is funny. I have to give em that. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

14 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Quoting this post again to snag you. Okay so after using adhesive blast to stick both onto enemies directly and onto section floor that were at the appropriate distance I came up with these modified stats:

Ogris 4.5m It kept swapping between 4m and 5m whenever it seemed to feel like it.

Penta 5m the same.

Penta, Secura 6m one additional meter gained.

Tonkor 7m the same.

Torid 3.5m Like the ogris it seemed to change between 3 and 4 meters for no explicable reason.

When shooting the projectile into the sensor regulators it made a substantial difference depending on what part of the drone it attached to as well as vertical positioning. May have been caused by the drones being partially in the floor as is their nature.

Vindication! Although taken with a pinch of salt (let's not get bogged down in confirmation bias), there's clearly lesser and greater AOEs among launchers, and we can all confirm Tonkor's on the greater end once again, although still behind that (S.)Simulor of course.

Meanwhile the Ogris sucks, at least the Torid's absolute-lowest radius is mitigated by the attaching / trapping approach making it not exclusively radius-on-impact reliant.

Edited April 22, 2016 by EDYinnit

[HAYABU5A]

tonkor is the last weapon that should be getting any special mods

its probably the least deserving of its own mod of all weapons

[Magneu]

It seems as though the thread was "successfully" derailed. Guess the Tonkor is here to stay. 

Yippee.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, Magneu said:

It seems as though the thread was "successfully" derailed. Guess the Tonkor is here to stay. 

Yippee.

Derailed? It just looks to me like the apologist rhetoric finally ended.

Maybe they finally got wise to the fact that their constant bumping up of the thread worked against them because of the logical conclusions that must be drawn from all of the debate.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 minute ago, Magneu said:

It seems as though the thread was "successfully" derailed. Guess the Tonkor is here to stay. 

Yippee.

Seems more like they got tired of using the exact same spiel over and over, like we did from the start. I hope it changes something, but I doubt it. 

At least MR. TORGUE would approve. 

[Magneu]

12 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Derailed? It just looks to me like the apologist rhetoric finally ended.

Maybe they finally got wise to the fact that their constant bumping up of the thread worked against them because of the logical conclusions that must be drawn from all of the debate.

Regardless of the cause, the thread fell to the second page of the Weapons forums, and people generally only check the first 10-20 topics, and maybe the entire page.

Nobody will read the entire 39 pages we have here anyway, I just hope DE staff see laid out arguments and draw a conclusion from there.

EDIT: Logical arguments not-withstanding, people tend to (unfortunately) agree with emotions that appeal to them, as illogical as it is.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Magneu
Wrong number of pages

[DeadlyPeanutt]

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

EDIT: Logical arguments not-withstanding, people tend to (unfortunately) agree with emotions that appeal to them, as illogical as it is.

agreed.  players make decisions about which game they play and support completely based on emotion; ie, what game is FUN for them.

Endlessly quoting statistics to support ruining a weapon that a huge number of players find FUN is quite illogical, so to speak :)

[shyguyk]

1 hour ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

 

Endlessly quoting statistics to support ruining a weapon that a huge number of players find FUN is quite illogical, so to speak :)

 

[citation needed]

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

agreed.  players make decisions about which game they play and support completely based on emotion; ie, what game is FUN for them.

Endlessly quoting statistics to support ruining a weapon that a huge number of players find FUN is quite illogical, so to speak :)

By endlessly quoting statistics in your view, I'm providing detailed explanation about how the Tonkor is objectively the best weapon in the game (not by a small amount, but by a massive gap), and how it creates a power creep/jump so severe it can have repercussions further down the road that will hurt the game (power creep is natural; Tonkor-level power creep is not, and is anything but good for the game).

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

agreed.  players make decisions about which game they play and support completely based on emotion; ie, what game is FUN for them.

Endlessly quoting statistics to support ruining a weapon that a huge number of players find FUN is quite illogical, so to speak :)

By endlessly quoting statistics in your view, I'm providing detailed explanation about how the Tonkor is objectively the best weapon in the game (not by a small amount, but by a massive gap), and how it creates a power creep/jump so severe it can have repercussions further down the road that will hurt the game (power creep is natural; Tonkor-level power creep is not, and is anything but good for the game).

[DeadlyPeanutt]

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

By endlessly quoting statistics in your view, I'm providing detailed explanation about how the Tonkor is objectively the best weapon in the game (not by a small amount, but by a massive gap), and how it creates a power creep/jump so severe it can have repercussions further down the road that will hurt the game (power creep is natural; Tonkor-level power creep is not, and is anything but good for the game).

Fun weapons are good for the game.  Weapons that HUGE numbers of players enjoy are also good for the game.

Here's an example of something that's BAD for the game: Nerf a weapon that HUGE numbers of players enjoy and watch the blowback against the game and the game Dev in forums, player reviews and reddit.  Also watch people start leaving the game in disgust because the weapon they bought/crafted and carefully forma ed into a very fun weapon is no longer usable.  Now there's a situation that's bad for the game. 

[TheBrsrkr]

9 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Fun weapons are good for the game.  Weapons that HUGE numbers of players enjoy are also good for the game.

Here's an example of something that's BAD for the game: Nerf a weapon that HUGE numbers of players enjoy and watch the blowback against the game and the game Dev in forums, player reviews and reddit.  Also watch people start leaving the game in disgust because the weapon they bought/crafted and carefully forma ed into a very fun weapon is no longer usable.  Now there's a situation that's bad for the game. 

And so the circle begins again!!!!! 

On 4/20/2016 at 0:36 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

I don't particularly care about what you think it is you're doing. In reality the amount of fun your having has no effect on game balance.This is a discussion about whether a weapon is balanced or not. Liking it or not is completely irrelevant.

I'll keep repeating it until you come up with something else to say. 

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Fun weapons are good for the game.  Weapons that HUGE numbers of players enjoy are also good for the game.

Here's an example of something that's BAD for the game: Nerf a weapon that HUGE numbers of players enjoy and watch the blowback against the game and the game Dev in forums, player reviews and reddit.  Also watch people start leaving the game in disgust because the weapon they bought/crafted and carefully forma ed into a very fun weapon is no longer usable.  Now there's a situation that's bad for the game. 

A lot of people find street-racing fun, but it's inherently dangerous and can affect bystanders in negative ways; take it to a track.

Because it's fun, should it be legal? Definitely not. "Because it's fun" is a horrible argument.

[shyguyk]

Capitalizing HUGE and FUN makes your argument look wanting. If you can't back that up empirically, it only strengthens that appearance.

Magneu's racing analogy is what we're all trying to say.

Edited April 25, 2016 by shyguyk
I suck at spelling.

[ClinkzEastwood]

Fun is subjective and it shouldn't be brought into a discussion.

What might be fun for one, could be unfun for other. Some could find being overpowered to be enjoyable, some might think having to work their way to achieve victory is what is good.

Bring "fun" factor into an argument is like saying "I'm more important than you, it's MY fun that's should be prioritised, not yours".

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[cx-dave]

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Derailed? It just looks to me like the apologist rhetoric finally ended.

Maybe they finally got wise to the fact that their constant bumping up of the thread worked against them because of the logical conclusions that must be drawn from all of the debate.

Who cares about the Tonkor and your petty demeanor. Time to upgrade your calculator LMAO. We got this coming:

[RealPandemonium]

I tried running Tonkor in a few recent sorties.  While the weapon's mechanics can be fun, it ends up just being a bandaid for broken enemy scaling since the reward not only outweighs the risk/downsides but is ludicrously absolute.  Damage is meaningless when it can kill anything in one hit and in a wide AOE at that.  Might as well not have HP and just make everything die in one hit.  I think Warframe's playerbase needs to be weaned off of killing everything instantly at will.  

Edited April 25, 2016 by RealPandemonium