Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[DeadlyPeanutt]

4 hours ago, Magneu said:

This issue has already been extensively covered by EDYinnit, and to a lesser degree by myself. Read previous posts to see the arguments/explanations.

I've resigned myself to not bothering to try to respond to ridiculous claims and personal attacks in this thread (^Ax10m...), as everything has been covered to an extremely redundant degree. Still, sometimes something so out there is posted I can't help myself. Ah well.

the player that you're responding to is expressing his opinion, which is just as valid and valuable as yours.

please do not dismiss other players' opinions and ideas, especially since the numbers of players using tonkor and other high damage weapons is so HUGE in WF.  

the opinions that you so casually dismiss may well be held by the VAST majority of players. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[RealPandemonium]

20 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

the opinions that you so casually dismiss may well be held by the VAST majority of players. 

Just because a majority holds an opinion does not mean that it is a good one.  The "we are in the majority therefore we win" argument was already used early in the thread and responded to.  Making sweeping assumptions about the entire playerbase is also a fruitless endeavor; we must let our ideas stand on their own merits.  It is a given that comments laced with irony and vitriol will count for less in the end.  

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

the player that you're responding to is expressing his opinion, which is just as valid and valuable as yours.

please do not dismiss other players' opinions and ideas, especially since the numbers of players using tonkor and other high damage weapons is so HUGE in WF.  

the opinions that you so casually dismiss may well be held by the VAST majority of players. 

Quote

This is a game (not a contest or competition), people play for fun. If their idea of fun is running around blowing things up with a tonkor, that doesn't hurt you (and you don't have the right to deny them that fun). Use it or do not - each person can decide for themselves!

P.S. I love the variety of weapons in this game.

Opinion (subjective and irrevocable personal assertion)

Factual claims (can be wrong, AND have been asserted, and argued as wrong, previously in the thread)

[TheBrsrkr]

6 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

the player that you're responding to is expressing his opinion, which is just as valid and valuable as yours.

please do not dismiss other players' opinions and ideas, especially since the numbers of players using tonkor and other high damage weapons is so HUGE in WF.  

the opinions that you so casually dismiss may well be held by the VAST majority of players. 

 

On 4/20/2016 at 0:36 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

I don't particularly care about what you think it is you're doing. In reality the amount of fun your having has no effect on game balance.This is a discussion about whether a weapon is balanced or not. Liking it or not is completely irrelevant.

At least say something different. 

[Ax10mCRO]

12 hours ago, Magneu said:

as everything has been covered to an extremely redundant degree.

Everything except the part where you are for some reason unable to use the tools provided in the game to create a party where nobody will use Tonkor and you can enjoy yourself any way you want to.

That is still the issue that none of you have explained. If so many players hate tonkor then it's not a problem to create such a group in less than a minute, if creating such a group is a problem then you clearly are a minority and are trying very very hard to change the majority of the playerbase to suit your own selfish needs, either way you don't really have any reason to whine here all this time?

[TheLexiConArtist]

18 minutes ago, Ax10mCRO said:

Everything except the part where you are for some reason unable to use the tools provided in the game to create a party where nobody will use Tonkor and you can enjoy yourself any way you want to.

That is still the issue that none of you have explained. If so many players hate tonkor then it's not a problem to create such a group in less than a minute^{[citation needed]}, if creating such a group is a problem then you clearly are a minority^{[citation needed]} and are trying very very hard to change the majority of the playerbase^{[citation needed]} to suit your own selfish needs^{[citation needed]}, either way you don't really have any reason to whine here all this time?

It's not that people are unable to make private parties. It's that they shouldn't HAVE to. Because we could just as well say that if you want to mindlessly faceroll through missions without any gameplay using an overpowered weapon then you have the capacity to use the tools provided to make a group you are sure will not mind the lack of gameplay involved.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

8 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

"we the people demand fun"-mantra

 

[TheBrsrkr]

30 minutes ago, Ax10mCRO said:

Everything except the part where you are for some reason unable to use the tools provided in the game to create a party where nobody will use Tonkor and you can enjoy yourself any way you want to.

 

 

On 4/21/2016 at 4:38 AM, TheBrsrkr said:

. Does not playing with the Tonkor magically remove the effect it has on the game? No. "Don't like it don't use it" is a ridiculous prospect in a multiplayer game. 

Should I be forced to play around the people who have a Tonkor? No. Again, this is a game for everybody. No one should have to manually screen through players to actually play the game. 

Is game balance a requirement in games? Yes. Just because it isn't PvP doesn't mean that you're not affecting the experiences of other players. If you think that, you really need to go learn more about game balance as a whole. 

Everyone can have fun, except non-Tonkor players have to play separately from Tonkor players, public games have to either be completely avoided or involve a lot of joining and quitting, and everyone has to play around the game breaking instrument instead of fixing it. I'll say it one more time, because I don't think you get it, the amount of fun you're having with a broken weapon doesn't change the fact that it's a broken weapon. 

 

On 4/21/2016 at 2:37 AM, Magneu said:

@shyguyk

Also, telling people who believe the Tonkor is unbalanced that they need to use private matchmaking to avoid it is more indicative of the Tonkor being the broken factor, as well as being a extremely unfair to those people. If the Tonkor is so prevalent in missions (I see between 3 and 7 every group of sorties) that people need to actively avoid it (our community is known for choosing the most effective strategy, in any case), that's another case  against it.

 

[Ax10mCRO]

13 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Because we could just as well say that if you want to mindlessly faceroll

But thats the entire point. You don't have the right to tell me anything in public matchmaking, the same way that i can't complain that people come with crappy setups to public sorties. Thats why it's public matchmaking, you should be intelligent enough to realize some people wanna play the game differently. It is something that you choose to accept when you que up for public matchmaking.

If that doesn't suit you (and clearly it doesn't) the game developers have provided you with the tools to play the game any way you want to, something that you clearly avoid to do.

In other words this isn't a "fix tonkor" thing it's "i'm too lazy so devs should make this automatic for me" thing.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 minutes ago, Ax10mCRO said:

But thats the entire point. You don't have the right to tell me anything in public matchmaking

I don't have the right to tell you what to bring in public matchmaking (how to play your game).

What you bring in public matchmaking can affect how I wish to play the game.

You also have no right to tell me how to play the game in public matchmaking (but your choices cause this indirectly).

QED, the sources of this enforced imperative on how others play the game must be changed by non-player sources.

Ergo, this thread petitions DE to fix the problem.

Edited May 13, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Ax10mCRO]

22 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

the sources of this enforced imperative on how others play the game must be changed

Actually they don't have to be changed, this game is not PvP, it is not competitive, you have the ability to play it any way you wish but instead you "petition DE" to change public games to suit your needs.

[TheLexiConArtist]

14 minutes ago, Ax10mCRO said:

Actually they don't have to be changed, this game is not PvP, it is not competitive, you have the ability to play it any way you wish but instead you "petition DE" to change public games to suit your needs.

Only PVP games involve an expectation of actual gameplay.

Uh no they don't.

All multiplayer games involve balancing between the effects players have on each other, competitive or otherwise.

If you play a Rogue on WoW, and while in PVE content you are significantly outdamaged by an order of magnitude, being in full endgame gear and performing proper skill rotations, by an autoshooting Hunter in quest greens, you would have a game problem. Hunters would obviously need to be nerfed (or Rogues buffed, depending on the context) because they are completely disparate and the player cannot reasonably contribute with their choice.

Despite it being cooperative, PVE content, the impact of one player harms the gameplay satisfaction of the other. Reasonable expectations (the player in the same role, playing better and with better gear has a greater performance) are not met.

[TheBrsrkr]

18 minutes ago, Ax10mCRO said:

Actually they don't have to be changed, this game is not PvP, 

It is still a multiplayer game. People have to be able to play together. This weapon leaves up to 3 players unable to play. Not unwilling, unable. If you want to play in a way that I don't like, that's fine, I don't care. But if you prevent me from playing to do it, we're going to have a problem. Whether or not you like playing that way is completely irrelevant if you can actively or passively prevent players from actually playing the game. 

That's where this part:

23 minutes ago, Ax10mCRO said:

, you have the ability to play it any way you wish 

Is wrong. You can't play any way you wish when everything is dead or shut down. 

 

25 minutes ago, Ax10mCRO said:

but instead you "petition DE" to change public games to suit your needs.

Because my need is to play the damn game. 

[Ax10mCRO]

27 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

my need is to play the damn game. 

Then by all means go and play the game, make your own group and play it any way you wish, tools were provided, i don't really care if you are unable or unwilling to use them but work on that before demanding changes that other people clearly don't want/need.

If public matchmaking was so horrible nobody would play it, yet they do, so apparently the problem is with you people who are crying here, not the thousands of players who are enjoying the game.

[TheBrsrkr]

6 minutes ago, Ax10mCRO said:

Then by all means go and play the game, make your own group and play it any way you wish, tools were provided, i don't really care if you are unable or unwilling to use them but work on that before demanding changes that other people clearly don't want/need.

You literally read nothing anyone just said, didn't you? Let me highlight it for you:

38 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

It is still a multiplayer game. People have to be able to play together. This weapon leaves up to 3 players unable to play. Not unwilling, unable. If you want to play in a way that I don't like, that's fine, I don't care. If you prevent me from playing the game to do it, then we have a problem. Whether or not you like playing that way is completely irrelevant if you can actively or passively prevent players from actually playing the game. 

That's where this part:

Is wrong. You can't play any way you wish when everything is dead or shut down. 

 

Because my need is to play the damn game. 

 

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

 

THIS ENTIRE POST YOU DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE 

 

 

47 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

 

 

Uh no they don't.

All multiplayer games involve balancing between the effects players have on each other, competitive or otherwise.

If you play a Rogue on WoW, and while in PVE content you are significantly outdamaged by an order of magnitude, being in full endgame gear and performing proper skill rotations, by an autoshooting Hunter in quest greens, you would have a game problem. Hunters would obviously need to be nerfed (or Rogues buffed, depending on the context) because they are completely disparate and the player cannot reasonably contribute with their choice.

Despite it being cooperative, PVE content, the impact of one player harms the gameplay satisfaction of the other. Reasonable expectations (the player in the same role, playing better and with better gear has a greater performance) are not met.

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

Devstream hype.

Hard work pays off.

[TheBrsrkr]

Levels 1-25 or so can be played with literally the starting gear and your procedurally improved mods. Spawns and enemy types are artificially lowered to reduce the difficulty of the levels, because these levels have to be designed for new players, playing for little more than a couple days if so much. This is pretty much the first three planets, and can be cleared within 2 hours or so. Because of this artificial deflation, EVERYTHING will be effective. An MR5 player replaying these levels isn't there for the challenge, they're there to either help out a new player or to farm Neurodes, which can be done for an hour with a half modded Karak since these are the beginner levels. These levels would not show whether ANY weapon  is balanced or not. Everything is OP on Mercury. 

 

Levels 30 to about 55-65 are your standard fanfare, and used to be the old balancing point. It has since shifted to 80. You will find that most of the old weapons are outperformed by the Tonkor here, such as Sybaris, Acrid, Grakata, Burston Prime and the current set of launchers, while the newer sets of weapons post U15 still give it competition. Since the Tonkor's high damage is completely unnecessary down here, along with all those other weapons I might add, the power becomes irrelevant at that point and all other factors are taken into account, such as fire rate, ticks of damage per second, and how fast that damage is applied to how many enemies. This does not mean that the Tonkor is not overpowered. It means it isn't as efficient a killing method as other gear at that level. It'll still get the job done in the most mind numbing and cheap way possible, and it would still make everyone else be forced to play Loot Pickup Simulator: Space Ninja Editions , but it takes less time with other things. However, the higher the level is, the more prevalent and overbearing the Tonkor becomes. Any endless missions in particular, the most prevalent mission types at any level, will be dominated at the Tonkor, U15 or no, because actual enemy groups start to form instead of the trickle of the earlier levels.

 People using these methods aren't playing for fun in the first place, they're playing to get the mission over with so they can do something else. That in itself is a problem, but it also isn't a way to judge whether something is overpowered or not. Game breaking gear could be said to be overpowered, but for the sake of your argument let's say it's not. Again,this would be the same for literally any weapon anyone says is overpowered, and the Tonkor isn't the only overpowered weapon, just the most. 

It's after this point, levels 65-120 thereabouts where the obscene power of the Tonkor outstrips literally  all of the competition. This is just before the second rotation D in T4,where the game is literally trying to kick you out instead of providing viable challenge. This is where raids are trying to force you to out cheese the cheesy enemies and challenges. This is where you're supposed to die. Well, it was, and technically still is, but since it's the new balancing point I guess cheese is the new normal. The spawn rate is at maximum, and the enemies are prepared to sponge, but no sponge can sop up the Tonkor. They can for almost anything else though. 

If I have 57 Neurodes and a million armor plate, why would I go to Earth or Mars? There is nothing for you to do, because these planets have nothing significant to offer. About half of the starchart (Earth, Venus, Mars, Sedna, Saturn,most of  Neptune I guess) is completely meaningless to you after a few months of play, since these things have nothing to offer that the later planets or the Void do not offer themselves at vastly better rates. When was the last time you did a mission on Mars? What was the incentive? 

If you don't agree that one person shouldn't be allowed to prevent up to 3 people in the same match as them from playing without massive inconvenience, then no, you shouldn't. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed quotes from hidden posts

[Magneu]

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Devstream hype.

Hard work pays off.

Heyyo, we got noticed!

^{Senpai noticed us.}

I really hope the thing Scott said about "whoever messages Rebecca the most gets their say" was a joke. I also hope they take a closer look at the Tonkor behind the scenes more than they hinted at on the Devstream. 

[TheBrsrkr]

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Devstream hype.

Hard work pays off.

I missed it, what did they say? 

[shyguyk]

2 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I missed it, what did they say? 

Steve says it needs to get toned down somehow. Rebecca's sorta partial to it due to use.

they were on about "there's always one weapon that's the best in its category" type thing, and buffs and nerfs "depends" on the weapon.

they referenced halo with the magnum vs the rocket launcher saying one shouldn't equal the other. I think this was sorta obvious to everyone though.

Basically what i got from it is they're considering upping the standard of weapon power

Spoiler

Probably going to make the starchart trivial with most every weapon.

 

[Magneu]

1 minute ago, shyguyk said:

Steve says it needs to get toned down somehow. Rebecca's sorta partial to it due to use.

they were on about "there's always one weapon that's the best in its category" type thing, and buffs and nerfs "depends" on the weapon.

they referenced halo with the magnum vs the rocket launcher saying one shouldn't equal the other. I think this was sorta obvious to everyone though.

Basically what i got from it is they're considering upping the standard of weapon power

  Reveal hidden contents

Probably going to make the starchart trivial with most every weapon.

 

I kinda got bad vibes from the "it depends" mindset. The problem with the Tonkor is that it overrides "it depends", by being the best not 10, 20, 30, 50% of the time, but 95%+ of the time (already covered earlier in the thread with videos and picture evidence). Just doing raw DPS calculations (not even counting head-crit AOE madness), it's easy to see how much better the Tonkor is at everything.

I have no problem with Tonkor being the best. I have a problem with it being the best by a massive margin, to the point where using any other explosive, or even any other weapon, is purposely gimping yourself.

[Fast_98]

I don't mind them adjusting the tonkor I just hope that they don't ruin it or make into mastery fodder.

[Magneu]

6 minutes ago, Fast_98 said:

I don't mind them adjusting the tonkor I just hope that they don't ruin it or make into mastery fodder.

I fully agree. I don't like seeing weapons made useless, but it does need to be toned down for sure.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 hour ago, shyguyk said:

Rebecca's sorta partial to it due to use.

her use of it or player usage statistics? don't quite get it.

1 hour ago, shyguyk said:

they were on about "there's always one weapon that's the best in its category" type thing, and buffs and nerfs "depends" on the weapon.

yeah, only it's the best in pretty much any category most (!) of the time ... how about REALLY fixing the headshot multiplyer damage for starters? that was supposed to be a bug anyway, wasn't it?

1 hour ago, shyguyk said:

Basically what i got from it is they're considering upping the standard of weapon power

wut?

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

it's easy to see how much better the Tonkor is at everything.

like srsly this thing is so broken even on paper, what were they thinking when they designed it anyway? sorry, but if they feel like in a dilemma now, it's pretty much their own fault imo.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[shyguyk]

@Kotsender_Quasimir

Addressing this in order of questions

Her use,

This is what I and many others have argued earlier in the thread, but people were in denial because the end game stats do not count explosives as headshots.

They said they're gonna poll the game/forums or something and see what to do about it. But given the nature of power creep, everyone will want more powerful weapons rather than a nerf to the strongest. This will end in enemies that get wrecked by everything, still ending in a lack of things to shoot for the tonkor user's teammates due to its high blast radius. That and the "it depends" type of balancing.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by shyguyk
Forgot the "it depends" part