There are only 6 major roles for frames in the game and Trinity dominates almost half of them

[[DE]Danielle]

Several posts were removed (for the second time). The thread will be locked if arguments and insults continue. Please remain civil. 

[dmkrodan]

On 3/20/2016 at 7:55 PM, Fifield said:

This leaves the other 29 frames to compete over the remaining roles.  No wonder ~19 warframes are largely unused.

The major roles in rough order of importance:

1. Crowd control
2. Energy provider
3. Defence
4. Undetectability
5. AOE damage
6. Healer
   
   --> Trinity-dominated roles in bold.  She's also one of the best at defence.  AOE damage is low on the list because of weapons like Tonkor and Sonicor.
    
7. Single target damage
8. Damage buffing 
9. Farming
10. Speed boost
    
    --> Minor roles.  Guns do already hit incredibly more damage for #7 and #8.  #9 is a barely legitimate role.

[important note, #numbers were changed after a page and a half of replies for readability.  Sorry to everyone who replied beforehand]

So how do we split 8-10 roles among 30 warframes?  The key to an interesting variety of warframes is to split a role so that one frame is good at half (or less) of it, whilst another frame is good at the other half. eg re #3 Blessing provides semi permanent incoming damage negation whilst moving.   Snowglobe provides full immunity AOE (bar hook) whilst static.

Note also:
#2: Energy Vampire is an order of magnitude more powerful than anything else in the game.  Oh and it provides overshields as well.
#6: Blessing provides instant full health + shields.  The only way it could be stronger is providing damage reduction (for which it provides 99%) or providing shields beyond normal capacity (which an EV augment does).

This post isn't just about how ridiculously OP and other-frame-obsoleting Trinity is.  

It also shows where to start when designing warframes.

Already refuted counterarguments because some don't reads threads

 "But this frame has X Y Z skills"
Yes but none of those skills are better than the next best for that role.

"Nerfing is bad"
Nerfing 9 skills is easier than buffing the other 111.  Since the game is too easy, it's the sensible thing to do anyway.

"You're attacking Trinity"
Trinity is a machine, merely designated female so stop being emotionally attached.  Also, "she" is unique in dominating multiple major roles.  But to make you feel better, here's a list of the other OP abilities:
Exalted Blade
Snowglobe
Invisibility
Prism
Molecular Prime.
Bastille
Vortex

things for that list of OP abilities:

Sleep arrows from Quiver on Ivara. 

If you are going to toss up bastille, might as well toss up Stomp. It doesn't have a limit on how many things it can suspend, and bastille only truly starts to get overpowered when you use its augment, imo. 

Inaros' desecate. That thing can achieve a 40m conic range of blind and halt, opening up any number of enemies to finishers, and it is on demand, AND far cheaper than other blind options. 

 

But on the topic of OP things you listed, I have to say Prism is the one that takes the cake. I have actually talked about this before. It completely confuses me why some things get touched upon, when we have mirage, who can, in a single skill, achieve massive non line of sight based CC, constant damage (although to limited numbers of targets, and LOS based), and opening up whole maps of enemies to finishers. Hands down, Prism is easily one of the most overpowered skills in the game, ESPECIALLY if you ignore its constant damage, and go instead for the CC/finisher opening. you can level things so painlessly. It is NOT funny. I can bring my no forma max range/ efficiency mirage to anything, find a secluded  place to hide, and watch as all the difficulty goes out the window. Even on corprus sorties. Prism is extremely gamebreaking. It is on par with blessing. 

[Fifield]

Sorry for the delay in responding, been dealing with family issues.

On 22/03/2016 at 4:59 PM, torint_man said:

The qualifications for an ability to be OP is all relative.

You didn't counter my argument, merely restated yours -- which I had already proved false using cold hard logic.

On 22/03/2016 at 4:59 PM, torint_man said:

Also, you admitted that zenurik does make EV less in demand, so wouldn't that, by definition, make EV hurt frame variety less?

Only marginally.  You could argue that Zenurik makes frames less reliant on Trinity and you could use other frames in that slot.  Those frames would probably be the OP ones.

On the other hand, that Zenurik ability is good for Trinity too, ensuring she never runs out of energy to cast EV, making it even more overpowered.

So that Zenurik ability provides a marginal increase in frame variety whilst making the most broken skill in the game even more broken.

[BlackCoMerc]

On 3/20/2016 at 11:06 PM, R34LM said:

How about instead of nerfing supposedly OP abilities we buff the lack luster ones that really need work. It would still serve to accomplish this goal.

Besides, the ones you seem to have an issue with are Trinity's.

Because you cannot - absolutely CANNOT - balance a game around infinite power and infinite health. Don't get me wrong; Pizzas are an issue, too, and they need to become injectors that restore very slowly over 1-2 minutes. And don't stack.

But that won't matter, so long as Trinity can do what she does. Which is literally break the game, by taking two resources which balance demands MUST be limited, namely, health and energy, and literally making them infinite.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

OP, your numbering of roles is completely arbitrary, and therefore completely invalid in that it does not match in any way with what virtually all of the longest standing meta gamers in warframe understand to be the roles.

The most typical model I see is:

• Crowd Control.
• Damage Dealing.
• Support.

By this standard, Trinity does exactly one role in and of herself, while the vast majority of frames do both Crowd Control AND Damage Dealing, and the few that also do healing do all three.  She has literally no CC to speak of, and can only do 3x damage through a particularly contorted roundabout, so I suppose you could say she also does some weak and non-scaling damage dealing (WoL + EV to blow up a single target once a year?  Please.  The only build that can do that in a reasonable time frame literally sucks at all of the rest of the things Trinity does, short of providing energy.  So many other frames can get infinitely scaling instagibs with a single ability + melee finisher.)

Inaros, for example, does the Crowd Controlling and Damage dealing at infinity (spammable AoE blind/prompted finishers) because he literally cannot be outscaled by enemies in them.  He also does the support pretty well, by giving his allies heals, invulnerability (yes, consume is invulnerability) and the ability to do finishers (infinite damage potential) as well.

Equinox, despite your claims, actually does all three roles extremely well.  She can produce a sustained huge AoE 80% slow on enemies, which also reduces their damage deat to teammates by, what, 85%?  That's arguably stronger than Blessing in that it can be fully sustained for eternity on a dime.  She can also scale an AoE blast literally into eternity, as well as buffing allies abilities (EV, is that you?) and weakening enemies to damage, thus quite thouroughly and powerfully filling all three roles.  People actually DO play her too, just not a ton (we have a ton of frames, man).

Ivara does Crowd Control, Support and Damage Dealing at inifitely high levels, considering she can both stealth her entire team in a large AoE for literally eternity, create ziplines that make her allies literally 100% to melee attacks anywhere on the map or in the air that they want to be.  She can also use the same ability she uses to make her whole team arguably 100% invulnerable to set massive areas of enemies up for prompted finishers (infinite damage with daggers, infinite CC).  You could literally say that she scales to inifinity in all three roles with a single ability, which happens to be her 1.

Yes, people don't play Oberon, but it's because his kit is just plain weird compared to a lot of simpler and more straightforward kits, and his Quality of Life for most abilities is Terrible, an yet he can, with the right build, literally make bleed out timers tick backward, thus providing (in his own way) even greater damage immunity than Trinity (because he can keep people from dying once they have already started bleeding out).  He's Also got both infinitely strong CC and infinitely strong DD on one ability, since his ult does blind AoEs which can set enemies up for prompted finishers IIRC.

Okay, so we can say that even one of the collectively most disliked frames in the game does all the roles better than Trinity does.

I felt like stating that your statement that meta does not change is inherently incredibly closed minded, and flat out blatantly wrong, quite literally a contradiction in terms.  In any game that changes in meaningful ways, the meta changes.  Look at League, where the meta literally flips between 3-4 completely different ideals on a regular basis due to balancing.  Warframe gets more meaningful changes, and in larger quantities than any other game I've ever even heard of, but League would probably be the closest contender.

So, Let's look at a different conception of the Roles in the game:

• Disabler:  Which consists of both:
  • Crowd Controller.
  • Debuffer.
• Enabler:  Which consists of:
  • Utility Creator:  Self/Team/All.
  • Buffer:  Self/Team/All.
• Damage Output:  Which consists of:
  • Ability Damage Dealer.
  • Damage Amplifier:  Self/Team/All.

This is a much more comprehensive list than the previous one, and does away with a lot of the incoherent and intentionally dishonest labeling in yours.

Obviously, the Enabler and Damage Output roles fall into   For comparison, your:

• #1 CC role falls into Disabler: CC here.  About half of CC abilities, if modded for, are effectively all-powerful at CC, and most of those that aren't actually have a method of being all-powerful at the Damage Output role build into the ability, via either opening prompted finishers, or displacing enemies out of the map fatally.
• Your #2 Energy Provider (please, you made it its own role?  Cute, how about adding entire roles for all of the other one-off or rare ability niches in the game?  Like team invisifier, finsisher opener, loot master creator, etc.) falls cleanly into Enabler: UC.
• #3: Defense is really a split of four different roles, depending on how it's accomplished, being either a Disabler subtype or Enabler subtype.  A lot of better "defense" abilities even do three or more of these to an extent, like Frost's Snow Globe.
• #4 Undetectability is a mix, either Disabler: CC or Enabler:  UC.
• #5 AoE damage is clearly a part of either Damage Output: ADD or Damage Output:  DA depending on how it's accomplished.
• #6 Healer is pretty unambiguous, falling into Enabler:  Buffer.
• #7 Single Target Damage also falls into two categories, both in Damage Output, depending on how it's done.
• #8 Damage Buffing is clearly Damage Output:  Damage Amplifier, depending on who it affects.
• #9 Farming is debatably either an Enabler: UC ability, creating double loot from enemies, or an Enabler: B ability in that it buffs loot for the whole team.
• #10 is another example of you making a niche ability type an entire role.  It's clearly an Enabler: B type ability.

 

TL;DR:

• Your list of roles is completely arbitrary, and extremely biased beyond that, outright ignoring many niche ability types, and everemphasizing others.
• You outright ignore the strengths of other abilities that Trinity does not possess.  Disabler and Damage Output, or Crowd Control and Damage Dealer.
• You emphasize only the areas Trinity excels at.

Op is an incredibly biased individual who has no business calling for nerfs of things, seeing as he is mostly blind/self deluded about everything he says.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Because you cannot - absolutely CANNOT - balance a game around infinite power and infinite health. Don't get me wrong; Pizzas are an issue, too, and they need to become injectors that restore very slowly over 1-2 minutes. And don't stack.

But that won't matter, so long as Trinity can do what she does. Which is literally break the game, by taking two resources which balance demands MUST be limited, namely, health and energy, and literally making them infinite.

Why does balance demand that?  It doesn't.  If everyone can do infinity of quantity X, everyone is balanced.

Please, the game is literally adding warframes and mods that scale to infinity on an almost monthly basis, albeit most of them scale infinitely into CC and Damage rather than Energy and Damage reduction.  Any frame that gets a Sleep ability has infinite damage potential with Concealed Lethality daggers.  Same for a lot of other frames, including Valkyr, Banshee, Ash, Chroma, Excalibur and Inaros.  Frost and Inaros have infinite damage via enemy health scaling "physics" damage that ignores all armor/shields/resistances, and Saryn can spread spores for technically infinite damage output as well as regenerating her own energy infinitely by popping them with Toxic Lash.  There are others with infinitely scaling damage as well.

Any frame that can use Rage and Life Strike (or has a healing ability) has arguably infinite power, the only cap being how long they can actually survive taking a single instance of damage to convert health to energy.  Beyond that, we have Limbo, who effectively has infinite power and health as well (in a vastly less complicated way), and can share them, albeit in an entirely different way.  We also have Zenurik, that can scale up to 4 energy per second, and can be used by any frame.  Oh, and we have Syndicate weapons, which can provide a significant chunk of energy every ten seconds at maximum potential.

So, any frame in the Game can use Zenurik, Many frames have Openers for Prompted Finishers (infinite damage daggers yaaay) or otherwise infinitely scaling damage, and almost every frame in the game effectively has infinitely scaling CC with some decent energy efficiency and duration in their build and either Zenurik, a Syndicate proc, or energy pizzas.

You can't balance things off of the best case scenario while ignoring the flaws of that setup, you have to look at what the downsides are in every case.  For Trinity there are several.  Her abilities all have significant cast timers, and most can only be cast while standing on the floor, greatly limiting her mobility.  None of her abilities are toggled, and thus they have to be recast, leaving an opening of vulnerability.  She needs a very specific setup of mods and weaponry.  Her Link is longer duration than her Blessing, so if she's running a build that relies on self damage for high blessing damage reduction, she can't have CC/status immunity at the same time unless she wants to lose the blessing reduction for 1/4 the duration (or more) of each blessing, since her carefully tuned self-damage weapon won't do the right amount of damage.  She has very literally No AoE CC.  Seriously, you want to count 2 abilities that can each be used to CC a single target, and which any other form of CC, including impact procs breaks, leaving disabled for the entire duration?  She's got no CC at all.  She's also got next to no damage dealing capability in her kit, outside of possibly gibbing a single enemy every 15-20 seconds (or less than that, with a horrid abomination of a build that loses out on absolutely everything trinity does short of providing energy).  Any frame with Covert Lethality, a dagger, and a means of opening prompted finishers can do many orders of magnitude better than that, and be completely invulnerable while doing so.  Oh, yeah, she also has Link, which can amplify her damage by 3 if she uses self-damaging weapons (an invitation to disaster in many, many different ways) and all but commits suicide to do it.  Even then, she loses a large portion of Link+Blessing's durations in order to cast EV and kill single targets so that she doesn't run dry of energy in two cycles.  Please, virtually every other frame in the game that can amplify damage does it much better than this.

[Fifield]

28 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

The most typical model I see is:

• Crowd Control.
• Damage Dealing.
• Support.

By arbitrarily reducing the number of roles to three, of course no warframe will dominate more than one.  But look, even with your arbitrary number of roles:
There are 5+ frames who compete in Crowd Control.
There are 6+ frames who compete in Damage Dealing.

But there is just one warframe that dominates Support: Trinity.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

26 minutes ago, Fifield said:

By arbitrarily reducing the number of roles to three, of course no warframe will dominate more than one.  But look, even with your arbitrary number of roles:
There are 5+ frames who compete in Crowd Control.
There are 6+ frames who compete in Damage Dealing.

But there is just one warframe that dominates Support: Trinity.

Like I said, you intentionally ignored other support abilities.  We have frames that buff damage done by allies/nerf enemies damage resistance or attributes/buff damage done to enemies.  We have frames that slow all enemies in a massive AoE by 85%, meaning they do jack squat as far as damage to you or your allies, because you can saunter out of the way when they go to lethargically lift that detron to blast you.  We have frames that create double loot, ziplines, infighting in the enemy ranks, open finishers, drown the enemy, buff true damage/provide infinitely scaling damage buffs to any weapon type, make bleedout timers run backwards, make enemies flee in terror, explode enemies shields for infinite damage/make enemies shoot themselves, etc.

Trinity dominates the support NICHES of instantaneous (clutch) healing and rapid energy generation.  Other frames make it so you don't need to be healed in the first place, or don't need to spend energy in the first place, and let's be honest, the vast majority of builds in the game will get more than enough energy from Zenurik alone, and many others will get sufficient energy from drops and a syndicate weapon.  Trinity in no way shape or form dominates support, she only dominates two out of the many, many aspects of it.

As far as clutch healing, all the other healers suck horribly at it, ask for buffs to their terrible abilities first (actually, Inaros' ult heal is pretty darn good, but the ability also does a lot of CC and damage, so it can't be global).

As far as energy generation, we have... Limbo?  Trinity's basically the only frame in this niche, instead of nerfing her, we need other frames that can even enter the niche.  Remember when Nekros was the only frame that doubled drops?  Yeah, pretty much every single team ran him too.  Literally.

TL;DR:  There are many, many types of support and niches of support.  Trinity dominates two of them, one, because all of the other abilities in it are horrid broken messes of quivering suck, and the other because almost no other frame in the game does it, except one that flies right in the face of the game's horde-based nature and is unpopular because of it, as well as having several downsides that he shouldn't (TBH his energy generation while in the rift should scale with power strength too, and he should be able to access loot in catacalysm and carry datamasses/items through the rift.).

Now, stop being deluded and calling for nerfs to un-useability of the only two things a frame does, and go get some buffs to the horribly broken frames that overlap on the same areas WITHIN support.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Like I said, you intentionally ignored other support abilities.  We have frames that buff damage done by allies/nerf enemies damage resistance or attributes/buff damage done to enemies.

= Damage Dealing

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

We have frames that slow all enemies in a massive AoE by 85%

= Crowd Control

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

We have frames that create double loot, ziplines, infighting in the enemy ranks, open finishers, drown the enemy, buff true damage/provide infinitely scaling damage buffs to any weapon type, make bleedout timers run backwards, make enemies flee in terror, explode enemies shields for infinite damage/make enemies shoot themselves, etc.

Not going to argue every single skill in the game but there are 10 roles in the original post.

And you ignored my counterargument.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

3 minutes ago, Fifield said:

= Damage Dealing

= Crowd Control

Not going to argue every single skill in the game but there are 10 roles in the original post.

And you ignored my counterargument.

You again ignored supporting abilites that stealth or otherwise mitigate damage entirely.

Buffing damage done by others/to others isn't damage dealing, It's supporting, dearie.

Similarly, what would you call reducing damage to allies by redirecting bullets?  (Mag, Zephyr) or blocking them (Frost, Atlas, Limbo).  It's reducing damage by 100%, and it's supporting.

Crowd Controlling and Supporting overlap in a lot of ways, which is why I created my second set of archetypes.  You're assuming that healing is the only form of support, and then you're lumping energy generation in with it, and saying that "Only Trinity's abilities are support abilities, and she's the best at her only abilities, so she's overpowered."

You can apply the same completely irrational/illogical argument to every single frame in the game.  Every.  Single.  One.  Your argument is terribly biased, and blatantly illogical.

As has already been stated, your "roles" defined in the OP are completely arbitrarily defined by you, and arbitrary is a word that you clearly understand, as you attempted to use it when you thought that it benefited your own argument.  Clearly you don't understand the implications of this, so let me expound.

You, in your biased view, have taken the all of the abilities in the game and intentionally (consciously or not) separated them along lines that leave very few abilities in certain sections, thereby emphasizing those abilities in order to say that they are overpowered.  My counter was to state that there are any number of different classification schemes, and to show that ONLY YOURS, to which the majority of the player base DOES NOT SUBSCRIBE, portrays Trinity's abilities as "overpowered" (read: out-of-line).

• There is one other ability in the energy category, and it's horribly broken for numerous reasons.
• There are (Oberon/Equinox/Inaros) 3 other abilities in the Healing others category, and literally everyone agrees that Oberon's healing sucks for myriad reasons.  Equinox's isn't clutch, because you have to charge it, and Inaros' is excellent, but not global.  Oberon and Equinox's abilities flat out suck, no two ways about it.  Oberon's should travel all but instantly to targets, and should probably do a lot more healing than it does as well as provide other buffs.  Equinox's should provide either an "overshield" type mechanic or some other form of scaling buff if it's overcharged.  My favorite suggestion for her was a type of "health battery in the sky" at something like 5% of the damage done, that would be drained like QT for any allies in the vicinity if they are about to die, and would stay active even when the ability was toggled off, as long as you didn't switch to day form.

You did not provide a counter argument, all you did was restate what you had already stated, and it was still wrong.

[Fifield]

It would help if you read the original post before responding.

3 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

You again ignored supporting abilites that stealth or otherwise mitigate damage entirely.

Wrong again.  As already stated in the comment you responded to, these are explicitly-listed roles in the original post. 

6 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

You're assuming that healing is the only form of support, and then you're lumping energy generation in with it

I'd say "feel free to prove the first bit" but you contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

7 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

As has already been stated

Repeating a naked assertion doesn't make it any less wrong.

10 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

My counter was to state that there are any number of different classification schemes, and to show that ONLY YOURS, to which the majority of the player base DOES NOT SUBSCRIBE, portrays Trinity's abilities as "overpowered" (read: out-of-line).

I already proved Trinity is the only frame that dominates or gets even close to dominating one of your arbitrarily chosen classification scheme.

There is no way to buff Oberon to compete with Trinity on support and that's why that argument fails too.

The majority of the player base thinks that the game is too easy and that there's too much ability spam.

I'm not going to respond to more personal-attack-wall-of-text failures to explain why Trinity shouldn't be balanced.

[rawr1254]

18 minutes ago, Fifield said:

 

There is no way to buff Oberon to compete with Trinity on support and that's why that argument fails too.

 

Well with the recent flux of Oberons due to the recent Deluxe skin you are utterly wrong in that statement cause he's already excellent support(if played properly, same can be said for any frame though.) While Oberon maybe need some minor buffs not much would be needed to be done to make him on par with what Trinity can do. The whole concept of Trinity is to keep people from going down with damage reduction, nothing wrong with that. The concept around Oberon is to make it so when they go down wherever they are you'll have enough bleedout timer to get them up. It isn't a bad concept but it wasn't ever really tailored.

The travel time of the orbs is stupid, the amount of health healed is obsolete mainly due to Inaros and the channeling cost is someone bad. But he isn't meant to be 100% healer/support(unlike Trinity) where Oberon is healer/support/damage dealer. The damage dealing is what makes his heal need to be more mediocre to allow more balance though. They also need to make it so the healing doesnt stop when you hit max health but instead when the skill is turned off.

On top of his heal if they chance HG around to give a more decent armor buff it'd make him even better support with the debuff/knockdown immunity + damage all in one. Again it's the fact that he does damage that the rest is currently mediocre. 

Smite is fine and Reckoning could use a slight range buff. Also someone in another post mentioned changing Reckining to 100% spawning a health orb on kill with a % chance of energy orb as well which is an excellent idea for him.

So he is not a bad frame and not a whole lot needs to really change to make him good.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

It would help if you read the original post before responding.

Wrong again.  As already stated in the comment you responded to, these are explicitly-listed roles in the original post. 

I'd say "feel free to prove the first bit" but you contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

Repeating a naked assertion doesn't make it any less wrong.

I already proved Trinity is the only frame that dominates or gets even close to dominating one of your arbitrarily chosen classification scheme.

There is no way to buff Oberon to compete with Trinity on support and that's why that argument fails too.

The majority of the player base thinks that the game is too easy and that there's too much ability spam.

I'm not going to respond to more personal-attack-wall-of-text failures to explain why Trinity shouldn't be balanced.

I did read the OP, like I said, on multiple occasions, those are only their own roles because you arbitrarily decided that they were different roles, in direct contradiction to the majority of the community, myself included.  Out of the "6 major roles" that you layed out, healer, energy provider and undetectability are NOT major roles.

• Most teams do no go full stealth, in fact, outside of a single frame and a single augment for another frame, it's literally impossible to say that the team has a "stealth" centered role, because it's blatantly false.
• Teams CAN have a frame that is there solely to provide energy, but that is NOT the entirety of Trinity, and, AGAIN, the problem is not on the ability itself, but on the fact that there's nothing to compare it to that isn't broken to all but uselessness.
• There are 4 frames that can heal others (outside of augments).  4.  Out of those, two abilities are underpowered to the point that literally EVERYONE knows they are terrible, and the other one gives massive CC and damage potential, and so is not global.  It's not a role.  In fact, for a long time, the meta was to ditch Trinity, because getting hurt at all was "being bad"  (it still is, to an extent) and you could restore energy without wasting a team slot by using energy pizzas.

You can't argue both sides, you can't say that trinity is the best "support", from the 3 role model, and then jump over to your model and say that supports are only healers, it's blatantly dishonest, and you know perfectly well that you are doing it.  I'm not wrong, you're dishonest.

You determined that "support" from the 3 roles model only included "healer" and "energy generation" from your own deluded model, and I and the majority of the community disagree stridently with you.  You're wrong.  I did not contradict myself either, I expounded.  There's a clear difference.  More dishonesty from you.

Repeating a naked assertion?  Your entire OP, including the title, in and of itself are naked assertions with no support.

No, you didn't.  You tried to redefine my classification scheme to fit your own intentionally manipulated one, and I said you were wrong, and you still are.  Yet more intentional dishonesty from you.

There are a vast an near infinite array of ways to buff Oberon, but he's not going to compete with trinity as a "pure" support, know why?  BECAUSE HE'S NOT A PURE SUPPORT.  He has multiple CC and damage abilities.  Trinity has 0 CC abilities and 0 abilities intended for damage dealing.

No, the majority of the player base does not think this game is too easy and that there is too much ability spam, outside of a few specific frames, those being Excalibur with his constant Exalted and his RJ spamming on Draco (Gee, I wonder why people do that... oh right, because they intended to.  You don't like it?  Then go suck space or get non-farmed leveling buffed.

I'd actually argue that ALL of the new player base (those with under 100 hours on their belts) probably think that the game is horrifically difficult and in many ways.  The only reason those of us who have played literally thousands of hours don't is because we're used to it, we've got 90%+ of the items and things, we've calculated builds specifically to break things about the game, and spent hundreds of hours farming for components to create those builds.  Yes, with a few very, very specifically set up, organized, pre-planned groups, you CAN run certain types of infinite missions for a very, very long time, to the extent that it becomes boring.  You cannot do that with 99.99999999% of pugs you will ever, EVER play in.  Heck, even 90% of teams specifically designed to break the game will fail suddenly and spectacularly because of something unexpected, like a certain combination of eximus enemies, or heavy spawns, or someone getting just barely whiffed by a grenade and instagibbed right before recasting a critical ability.

The majority of the player base DO NOT think that the game is too easy and spammy, and out of those I HAVE seen say that?  I don't think I'd be exaggerating to say that 95% of them were players that played a different frame/build that were butthurt that they weren't able to compete with something somebody else did.

These aren't personal attacks, they are merely pointing out your logical inconsistencies, irrational statements, and dishonest behaviour, whether you realize it's dishonest or not.  If you don't realize it's dishonest, that's fine, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in a few cases, assuming that you couldn't possibly be foolish enough to not see what you're doing.

[fatpig84]

Almost thought it is nerf Trinity Wednesday thread.

[Fifield]

2014 called.  They want their meme back. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Fifield

[Fifield]

Well I gave others a chance to rip this apart.

On 02/04/2016 at 1:13 AM, rawr1254 said:

Well with the recent flux of Oberons due to the recent Deluxe skin you are utterly wrong in that statement cause he's already excellent support(if played properly, same can be said for any frame though.)

He has almost zero support and is frankly pathetic in comparison to Trinity.  A new skin doesn't make him any less underpowered.

On 02/04/2016 at 1:13 AM, rawr1254 said:

But he isn't meant to be 100% healer/support(unlike Trinity) where Oberon is healer/support/damage dealer.

He's about 10% healer/support and maybe 40% everything else.  He's barely half a frame.

On 02/04/2016 at 1:13 AM, rawr1254 said:

On top of his heal if they chance HG around to give a more decent armor buff it'd make him even better support with the debuff/knockdown immunity + damage all in one. Again it's the fact that he does damage that the rest is currently mediocre. 

Hallowed Ground is just a dreadful skill encouraging parkour-loving space ninja to stand still.  Outside of massively buffing the range so it fills whole rooms, it needs to be remade completely.

On 02/04/2016 at 1:13 AM, rawr1254 said:

Smite is fine and Reckoning could use a slight range buff. Also someone in another post mentioned changing Reckining to 100% spawning a health orb on kill with a % chance of energy orb as well which is an excellent idea for him.

No, it's a terrible idea.  He already gives full heals, which players can also get instantly from Trinity (+shields +overshields +99% dmg reduction), from Life Strike, from that Furis mod, from pads etc etc.

And you didn't even touch Renewal.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Fifield

[rawr1254]

 

5 hours ago, Fifield said:

Well I gave others a chance to rip this apart.

So kinda just proving here you aren't trying to prove anything but are just looking for an argument.

He has almost zero support and is frankly pathetic in comparison to Trinity.  A new skin doesn't make him any less underpowered.

"I have never played Oberon past 0 forma and I hereby deem him horrible so he must be horrible for EVERYONE else too" Moving on.

He's about 10% healer/support and maybe 40% everything else.  He's barely half a frame.

While his damage does not scale well the CC does. If you rely on his damage dealing skills to kill literally everything in the map 60 minutes into survival   If you think the healing from Renewal is his niche  The bleedout reduction is his niche NOT so much the healing from it. 

Hallowed Ground is just a dreadful skill encouraging parkour-loving space ninja to stand still.  Outside of massively buffing the range so it fills whole rooms, it needs to be remade completely.

Copy->Paste: "I have never played Oberon past 0 forma and I hereby deem him horrible so he must be horrible for EVERYONE else too" Moving on.

No, it's a terrible idea.  He already gives full heals, which players can also get instantly from Trinity (+shields +overshields +99% dmg reduction), from Life Strike, from that Furis mod, from pads etc etc.
Again UNLIKE TRINITY he deals damage AND has CC. Trinity has NONE  of that. IF you have a Trinity you're down a form of extra damage or CC in the team.
And you didn't even touch Renewal.

Just proving my point that you just wanna argue: Copy ->Paste:The travel time of the orbs is stupid, the amount of health healed is obsolete mainly due to Inaros and the channeling cost is someone bad. But he isn't meant to be 100% healer/support(unlike Trinity) where Oberon is healer/support/damage dealer. The damage dealing is what makes his heal need to be more mediocre to allow more balance though. They also need to make it so the healing doesnt stop when you hit max health but instead when the skill is turned off.

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by rawr1254

[Fifield]

The only thing in your post that wasn't straw man arguments (and you should get an official warning for doing it deliberately):

32 minutes ago, rawr1254 said:

Again UNLIKE TRINITY he deals damage AND has CC. Trinity has NONE  of that. IF you have a Trinity you're down a form of extra damage or CC in the team.

Trinity can do about 100k dps, which is far more than any frame power.  It's called a Tonkor.

And two of her skills disable enemies.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Fifield

[rawr1254]

20 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Trinity can do about 100k dps, which is far more than any frame power.  It's called a Tonkor.
 

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

 

First off, Tonkor does considerably less than 100kdps.  Try something closer to 50kdps.  A lot of frames can outdo that, to be brutally honest.  Valkyr can, as soon as that Tonkor stops oneshotting her prompted finishers will roflstomp it (as will anyone else's), Nova can (granted, she's a weapon amplifier, but still) far outdo that, when that damage.  Finally, weapons doing DPS on a level equal to, or, in some ways, greater than abilities is an intended feature of the game.  It's why we have, and are getting so many more abilities that amplify, or are amplified by weapons (or at least the mods on said weapons).

If you don't like the damage output of the Tonkor, complain about the Tonkor, because Tonkor is not Trinity.

Disable enemies, but both are single target with significant cast times.  On top of that, EV's interrupt is overridden, and then cancelled by any other form of CC, stagger, or disruption that comes through the area, and WoL is both entirely useless outside of the CC, but it also makes its targets literally 10x or more harder to kill than they were before.  Saying that "two of her skills disable enemies" is "on-paper" thinking, and insignificant.  It's like saying that Valkyr has ranged damage capability still while in Hysteria ("D'oH, she can still use rip line!").

Please.

Oberon's CC is also, as I recently realized in the April Fools mission, quite invaluable versus ancient and/or eximus enemies, because the radiation procs on 2/4 (Does Hallowed Ground do radiation procs, and does it do them often?  I'm not sure.) of his abilities instantly remove the insane aura bonuses they provide to allies.  Granted, you can also bring weapons to do rad procs, but Reckoning hits EVERYTHING in a pretty large area with them instantly with a 100% chance.

[jinxeverything]

29 minutes ago, Fifield said:

The only thing in your post that wasn't straw man arguments (and you should get an official warning for doing it deliberately):

Trinity can do about 100k dps, which is far more than any frame power.  It's called a Tonkor.

And two of her skills disable enemies.

DE, can you give Trinity the following abilities so the quoted guy could shut up, please!!!?

Stomp of Life as her first, Desecrated Vampire as her 2nd, Vexing Link as her 3rd and Blessed Exalted Blade Storm as her 4th

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Really, Fifield, telling OTHER people they should get an official warning for deliberate straw man arguments?

Edited April 3, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta
Politeness.

[Fifield]

15 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

First off, Tonkor does considerably less than 100kdps.  Try something closer to 50kdps.  A lot of frames can outdo that, to be brutally honest.  Valkyr can, as soon as that Tonkor stops oneshotting her prompted finishers will roflstomp it (as will anyone else's), Nova can (granted, she's a weapon amplifier, but still) far outdo that, when that damage.  Finally, weapons doing DPS on a level equal to, or, in some ways, greater than abilities is an intended feature of the game.  It's why we have, and are getting so many more abilities that amplify, or are amplified by weapons (or at least the mods on said weapons).

If you don't like the damage output of the Tonkor, complain about the Tonkor, because Tonkor is not Trinity.

Seems the point went over your head:  Trinity not having a damage ability (even though she does) isn't much of a flaw since she can do 100k dps.  Yes, 100k because Tonkor is AOE.

Also, I've asked for Tonkor to be balanced.

Still waiting for a reason why Trinity can't be balanced too.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

11 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Seems the point went over your head:  Trinity not having a damage ability (even though she does) isn't much of a flaw since she can do 100k dps.  Yes, 100k because Tonkor is AOE.

Also, I've asked for Tonkor to be balanced.

Still waiting for a reason why Trinity can't be balanced too.

Over my head?  You're ludicrous.  The point is, everyone can use Tonkor, and a lot of frames, (~40% of them), (Nova, Banshee, Mirage, Rhino, Saryn, Chroma, Ember, Equinox, Ivara, Limbo, Mesa) can actually get a lot more damage out of it (in many cases orders of magnitude) than Trinity can, because of their abilities that either amplify, or are amplified by weapons.

Your argument is effectively that one weapon does damage that you consider to be superior to DPS frames (it isn't to most of them, although granted a few suck) so the only useful abilities are support abilities.  It's not even a complete argument, for three reasons:

• Other frames have support abilities.
• What about CC abilities?
• Many of the damage-focused frames can and DO heavily out-damage Tonkor without even using Tonkor.

Trinity doesn't need to be "balanced" (read: nerfed) because she's not imbalanced, and you have yet to provide even a hint of a single valid reason that she is.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta
Additions, grammatical error.

[Attel_Malagate]

Yeahh go ahead, neft Trinity... ruin the fun for everyne who plays her so poeple can stick with loki and continue to use whatever the META is so you can continue to call the meta OP so you can continue to push nerf on it so you can continue to piss poeple off, go ahead ........

Seriously tho I like trin, but at that point, if she is nerfed, I will just switch to another of you so called "OP" frames and there is nothing you can do to stop me, I will just adapt my min/maxing to whatever you throw at me, you will just degrade the fun Im having, nothing else, because the core game mechanics wheren't about "balance" balance is present by nature in an infinitely scalling environment, I just dont see the point of all that whining, trin has good healing/dr because its her only role, deal with it and moove on, dont bother peoples with your conception of "balance".

Focus, pizzas and loot manipulation powers are a big enough source of energy, trin's "invincibility" can only be achieved with ONE build, and implys a risk as you can't just mentain it permanently, other frames like Inaros, Chroma, loki or Wukong can do just as good if not better at that, she is the lead of healers because she is supposed to, I dont really see whats the probelm, here.

Currently enjoying my Zenuric max range CC Nyx btw, literaly nothing can hit me yet I haven't seen many complains about it being '"op" just saying........