About Sayrn and Excal

[CrudShuzKong]

3 minutes ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

no offense but do you really think that you know better than a founder of this game warframe? i mean brozime started playing from the begging and you understand better?

In this case, yes. he said himself that he never played much saryn and that he never liked her much, and he is absolutely right, that her ultimate deals S#&$ damage and might as well not exist at all. But he still played her wrong and thus didnt see what she can do. She is a lot weaker than excal on levels over 80, but below that she outdamages him by far.

Edited March 22, 2016 by CrudShuzKong

[SpyGhostOtissss]

Just now, CrudShuzKong said:

In this case, yes. he said himself that he never played much saryn and that he never liked her much, and he is absolutely right, that her ultimate deals S#&$ damage and might as well not exist at all. But he still player her wrong and thus didnt see what she can do. She is a lot weaker than excal on levels over 80, but below that she outdamages him by far.

yes you are right about how to playing sayrn but im talking about sayrn originally being a dps dealer instead of some kind of balance role

[CrudShuzKong]

3 minutes ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

yes you are right about how to playing sayrn but im talking about sayrn originally being a dps dealer instead of some kind of balance role

She still does good dps, it just sucks agains armor (which limits her lategame greatly) and lacks survivability in super lategame. The big difference between her dps and Excals is, that hers is spread over the whole tilesets and even though the numbers are seemingly low she gets more work done before armor gets too much for her.

Edited March 22, 2016 by CrudShuzKong

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

8 hours ago, Tah1ro said:

in my opinion, saryn is the best scaling warframe because of viral procs and corrosive procs on demand. most people forget to count reduced health from viral procs, thatswhy she scales with the enemy level, not only stats. built as melee she does very well and is fun to play, at least for me. im not sure if any other warframe could compete with her...

here is how i play her solo:

1. namaron with crits and shadow step

2. steel charge

3. fast hitting crit weapon with slash damage, body count and blood rush. i prefere tipedo because it has a nice range

4. arcane strike and fury

5. only hit targets with spores on them

 

sorry for my broken english, i hope you anderstud what i want to say. i just went to this part of the forums, to learn and practice some english

 

greets

 

 

Try the dual ichors :)

You loose the slash but keep the weapon on its basic element and you gain an additional poison chance. It's that aside also among the strongest crit weapons in the game, perfect for saryn.

[CrudShuzKong]

21 hours ago, Nesisphira said:

Just 15 min ago:

She is letal, i was still able to kill them easely, but i could not approach the support capsule without losing my invisibility AND my combo counter=> one shot and / or no more dps so i was a little bit forced to leave.

 

Saryn is awesome, deadly and she have more utility in team than excalibur just for her -50% hp everywhere.

love those sceenshots mate, but i do disagree with you saying taht saryn has more utility than excal, since excal's blind is one of the best utility powers in the game.

[Blazer-X]

7 minutes ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

yes you are right about how to playing sayrn but im talking about sayrn originally being a dps dealer instead of some kind of balance role

Okay, as a founder whose been playing this game for a long time, I feel obligated to inform you that:

1) Founders don't know everything. I've personally kept myself up with what's meta, but many of my own builds don't always go for the max or optimal DPS, but instead leave some wiggle room for QOL mods. I also dont and would never consider myself a master for all the frames. There are those that I have played extensively and others that I could never bring to their full potential.

2) Most players tend to forget this today (or were not around for it back in the day), but the OG strategy for Saryn was Venom (now called Spore), not Miasma. The Miasma low duration build that had became Meta over the past two years was discovered as a result of the Chlora Helmet and Venom being nerfed to reduce bloom and performance issues. So for those of us who has been around long enough, this "reworked" Saryn is really more of a return to form.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, CrudShuzKong said:

In this case, yes. he said himself that he never played much saryn and that he never liked her much, and he is absolutely right, that her ultimate deals S#&$ damage and might as well not exist at all. But he still played her wrong and thus didnt see what she can do. She is a lot weaker than excal on levels over 80, but below that she outdamages him by far.

Try body count. The only thing excal is able to do better is stealth-finish enemys one by one and you're actually better off using a jat kittag instead of EB doing so.

Back to topic, the body count combo outnumbers ability melee by far. Excal only reaps situational use from these mods that were intendet as fix to the unbalance they created trough the implementation of ability melee, which has additional effects, strong basedamage and a slight multiplicator. 

Saryn fully scales off them where excal is unable to. Her brute melee damage gets amplified by poison damage from lash, which adds 30% poison to your final damage, while setting poison which spreads together with her spores while getting additional damage from destroying the spores in the extend of 25% of the innitial damage from each poison procc. This value is affected by strength.

Now lets do some math.

 

Lets say you red crit for 80k with a slide attack without taking the poison into consideration (realistic number on a crit weapon).

Build it right and this number resonates in your poison procc. These 80k would do 40k additional damage over 10 seconds standalone. Lets say you have 2 strength mods on her in the extend of 85% strength, which brings the additional damage to 46,25% per poison procc on the enemy. Equals 37k damage. The first hit would do 80k, the second hit 117k, the third hit 154k, the 4. Hit 191k, while setting and spreading poison for 160k damage (probably, most likely, kinda unclear in the wiki. I'll test it with body count when you actually see a big difference). The spread poison would trigger up to 146k on destruction of a spore trough shooting, syndicate effects, miasama, friendly fire... viral even effectively doubles this damage and you get a chance to trigger additional poison status in the extend of 50% of the 160k, what brings it to 240k procc and 222k burst damage on your next attack.

 

And this scenario only takes a small number of hits into consideration. How is this not viable against high level enemys? How effectively you are against crowds or highlevel enemys soely depends on how you play and...saryn bluntly beats excal in both categorys. In therms of scaling and ae damage.

The only way for excal to get even close to this dps potential lies in a surging dash or pure finisher build which limmits his targets even further where saryn in praticly unlimmited.

Edited March 22, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[CrudShuzKong]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Try body count. The only thing excal is able to do better is stealth-finish enemys one by one and you're actually better off using a jat kittag instead of EB doing so.

Back to topic, the body count combo outnumbers ability melee by far. Excal only reaps situational use from these mods that were intendet as fix to the unbalance they created trough the implementation of ability melee, which has additional effects, strong basedamage and a slight multiplicator. 

Saryn fully scales off them where excal is unable to. Her brute melee damage gets amplified by poison damage from lash, which adds 30% poison to your final damage, while setting poison which spreads together with her spores while getting additional damage from destroying the spores in the extend of 25% of the innitial damage from each poison procc. This value is affected by strength.

Now lets do some math.

 

Lets say you red crit for 80k with a slight attack without taking the poison into consideration (realistic number on a crit weapon).

Build it right and this number resonates in your poison procc. These 80k would do 40k additional damage over 10 seconds standalone. Lets say you have 2 strength mods on her in the extend of 85% strength, which brings the additional damage to 46,25% per poison procc on the enemy. Equals 37k damage. The first hit would do 80k, the second hit 117k, the third hit 154k, the 4. Hit 191k, while setting and spreading poison for 160k damage. The spread poison would trigger up to 146k on destruction of a spore trough shooting, syndicate effects, miasama, friendly fire... viral even effectively doubles this damage and you get a chance to trigger additional poison status in the extend of 50% of the 160k, what brings it to 240k, on your next attack.

 

And this scenario only takes a small number of hits into consideration. How is this not viable against high level enemys? How effectively you are against crowds or highlevel enmys soely depends on how you play and...saryn bluntly beats excal in both categorys. In therms of scaling and ae damage.

yeah i did not take the acolyte mods into account, since i havent used them much yet and never on saryn as i dont have naramon focus to really abuse them (saryn is really squishy without the invis). So i was just going with what i knew she could definitely do before speculating about htings i didnt know about too much.

[(PSN)KikoEschobar]

1 hour ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

nope, watch brozime's video about sayrn dps vs excal dps

Dude, we have spent the majority of this thread discrediting that video. Read the first six posts after OP. That test was not only biased, but extremely flawed as well. When in the hell are you going to face down one heavy gunner in  Warframe? The answer is basically NEVER!!!!

 And did you even read the post you quoted because it doesn't seem like it. He said "spread out" for a reason. I swear one low merit YouTuber makes a video and suddenly these "Saryn doesn't do damage" threads keep popping up.

Since YouTubers are so well respected, why don't you checkout the actual credible ones who say the exact opposite of what this guy says. Or perhaps you just want what he showed you to be accurate and side with his findings because of that. Either way his outcome was flawed on so many levels nothing of worth can be taken from that video. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by (PS4)KikoEschobar

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

19 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

yeah i did not take the acolyte mods into account, since i havent used them much yet and never on saryn as i dont have naramon focus to really abuse them (saryn is really squishy without the invis). So i was just going with what i knew she could definitely do before speculating about htings i didnt know about too much.

Welp, this is what i use now and gonna abuse even further when we finnaly get shadow debt xD the endresult is kinda the same as spores spread even without your input to the maximal spore capacity, the setup just isn't instant as it would be the case on how you use it now, what hardly matters in longer games :)

 

You should consider going for naramon, it's definitly an interresting option for saryn!

Edited March 22, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)KikoEschobar]

1 hour ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

no offense but do you really think that you know better than a founder of this game warframe? i mean brozime started playing from the begging and you understand better?

Founder or not means nothing. That's like saying a teacher is better at his job because he "paid" to go to a better college than another teacher. That is a fallacy of the highest order.

Brozime is the same guy who thinks that quote: Banshee is trash: unquote.This is the guy you think has credibility? Why? And how long you have played means nothing without the skill or ability to adapt to changes. Even if he didn't agree with the rework, he could at least give his viewers a proper build on how to use the frame. But instead we got incessant whining and a biased sample of how inept he is using her lol.

I like his content for most things, but his builds are often lazily done (no forma on most items) and he uses the damage as a benchmark of frame worthiness, which is extremely short-sided. 

[RealPandemonium]

Enough about the Brozime video.  It's already been lambasted in other threads and doesn't have any merit in a grounded discussion.  Don't post threads about balance if you yourself don't even understand the underlying mechanics.  

I've also met Brozime in-game a few times and even from that limited exposure I was left with the impression that he needs things explained to him.  Not everyone with a soapbox and a badge is actually competent or authoritative.  

Edited March 22, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

I actually like the bronzime bashing in this thread (he deserves it...) but i might just be a bully at heart <3

[(PSN)KikoEschobar]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

I actually like the bronzime bashing in this thread (he deserves it...) but i might just be a bully at heart <3

Shhh!!!

Whispers: Don't call it "bullying". Call it "discrediting". That way no harm done ;)

Edited March 22, 2016 by (PS4)KikoEschobar

[CrudShuzKong]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Welp, this is what i use now and gonna abuse even further when we finnaly get shadow debt xD the endresult is kinda the same as spores spread even without your input to the maximal spore capacity, the setup just isn't instant as it would be the case on how you use it now, what hardly matters in longer games :)

 

You should consider going for naramon, it's definitly an interresting option for saryn!

yeah im working towards it already, i just happened to choose zenurik as starter focus :)

[akira_him]

brozime video showed how bad the full combo miasma is, no offense, though the math is messy

shadow step body count combo means perma invis, and definitely not god mode/s

Edited March 23, 2016 by akira_him

[Helch0rn]

2 hours ago, akira_him said:

brozime video showed how bad the full combo miasma is, no offense, though the math is messy

shadow step body count combo means perma invis, and definitely not god mode/s

It seems you didn't read all the posts explaining where brozime is wrong.

Herr is a short overview:

-Miasma is NOT Saryns primary source of damage

-The build he used for Saryn was bad and would never be used in a real mission

-He compared excals EB with a fully modded Dragon Nikana against a minimal combo of miasma. He didn't even try to stack spores/toxin procs.

-Popping spores over and over again spreads not only the spores but also any toxin procs. The toxin procs stack and get higher and higher. The longer you keep popping, the more damage you deal. Miasma is just the cherry in top of the Ridiculously OP Sundae that is Saryns rework.

p.s. If miasma doesen't deal damage then why am I killing lvl 100+ enemys without a problem?

[Stratego89]

On 3/21/2016 at 9:31 AM, SpyGhostOtissss said:

Sayrn's supposed to be a lethal toxicating warframe lady ninja and Excals supposed to be "Balance" warframe and Excalibur is great, but Sayrn is supposed to be a DPS frame and does less dmg than excal? That dont make... sense

watch brozime's video about sayrn vs excal you will see what im talking about

I agree. This is clearly wrong.

DE- we need that Exalted Blade nerf already. We've been waiting too long.

[chuckdm]

On 3/21/2016 at 1:12 PM, Gurpgork said:

Saryn can quite easily compete with Excalibur. Just use Spores and a status cannon modded for Gas, and you'll be able to melt entire rooms full of enemies with minimal effort. 

Alternatively, I've found the Torid works even better.  Instantly pops spores, spreads them, and inflicts a toxin status on a wide area.

One Spore + One Torid Grenade = max Miasma damage in 2 clicks.  WAY, WAY easier than Toxic Lash or trying to use something like a status Ignis, which still works, but much slower.

It helps that the Torid does respectable damage, too :)

[akira_him]

34 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

It seems you didn't read all the posts explaining where brozime is wrong.

Herr is a short overview:

-Miasma is NOT Saryns primary source of damage

-The build he used for Saryn was bad and would never be used in a real mission

-He compared excals EB with a fully modded Dragon Nikana against a minimal combo of miasma. He didn't even try to stack spores/toxin procs.

-Popping spores over and over again spreads not only the spores but also any toxin procs. The toxin procs stack and get higher and higher. The longer you keep popping, the more damage you deal. Miasma is just the cherry in top of the Ridiculously OP Sundae that is Saryns rework.

p.s. If miasma doesen't deal damage then why am I killing lvl 100+ enemys without a problem?

Miasma is bad, not saying saryn is bad

that build he used is extremely impractical, on purpose, to maximise raw damage of Miasma, a practical build would have even less damage,

and actually he used full combo of 2>1>4, that applies viral and toxic proc on the gunner

miasma was nerfed due to metafarm, and everyone is happily pressing #1 for metafarm and no one complains about it

Edited March 23, 2016 by akira_him

[Helch0rn]

4 minutes ago, akira_him said:

miasma was nerfed due to metafarm, and everyone is happily pressing #1 for metafarm and no one complains about it

Strange.  My miasma deals more damage than before the 'nerf'

[akira_him]

32 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

Strange.  My miasma deals more damage than before the 'nerf'

the ability of miasma to substain a metafarm was nerfed, if you want me to make it clear

 

and meta farm in draco using saryn would be: cast molt, shoot toxic bulid torid on molt, spam spores on molt, repeat when molt explode

 

tbh the correct comparsion will be radial javelin, but it doesn't change the fact that Miasma isn't good enough on its own, it depends on toxic and viral proc, not synergise with it

EB, however, is good as a ranged ability, and turns into a lethal close range melee attack with RB, this is called synergy

Edited March 23, 2016 by akira_him

[IamTheSparta]

I've made a little video, a classic scenario where saryn is pretty strong:

 

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

7 hours ago, chuckdm said:

Alternatively, I've found the Torid works even better.  Instantly pops spores, spreads them, and inflicts a toxin status on a wide area.

One Spore + One Torid Grenade = max Miasma damage in 2 clicks.  WAY, WAY easier than Toxic Lash or trying to use something like a status Ignis, which still works, but much slower.

It helps that the Torid does respectable damage, too :)

^^ all lash does is using the posion mechanic to its ideal, you're able to get the highest possible poison proccs (crit weapon, crit build) without building for it with a 100% chance per hit. The result is definitly slower but scales much better and as i said before, this is but one way to play her and rather a situational choice in a scenario where you need lower numbers faster.

Using the torid is quite the interresting choice tho. I wasn't quite sure what to use for a primary till now as i tend to use melee offhand as the stronger choices don't have stance multipliers to begin with :) poison, status and crit focus i assume?

[Epsik-kun]

20 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The only way for excal to get even close to this dps potential lies in a surging dash or pure finisher build which limmits his targets even further where saryn in praticly unlimmited.

Clearly someone didn't build his own Excal yet.

 

20 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The only thing excal is able

The only way for excal to get even close to this dps potential

On 22.03.2016 at 2:45 PM, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

you will always out damage/out kill any Excalibur you'll find.

On 22.03.2016 at 3:20 PM, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

Yeah in some ways she is probably a better melee frame than he is which is kinda sad.

Beg your pardon?