Why do nullifiers still exist?

[Bibliothekar]

19 minutes ago, Sunfaiz said:

Because Cerberus was a thing (Draco of the past ).

Cerberus? Don't you mean Viver?

[Trichouette]

The nulifiers are just here to create some "artificial difficulty"

Since abilities aren't balanced (and will never be) they had to add these units.

Honestly I like comba and scrambus, but nulifiers are just a pain in the &#! that remove a lot of gameplay.

[Sunfaiz]

4 minutes ago, Bibliothekar said:

Cerberus? Don't you mean Viver?

In order it was ****-Viver-Cerberus-E-gate-Draco.

 

I dont count E-gate cause it was a loot grab not an Xp one. and There was something before Viver as well whose name I cant recall

[Xzorn]

Nullifiers are a serious balance problem in the game.

They reward bullet spray tactics over timed and accurate shots and they hinder the value of buff based frames.

Why are we being punished for using skillful weapons where every bullet counts?

And don't give me that run in and melee attack excuse either, there are plenty of frames where running inside a Nullifier bubble will get you killed and one solution does not warrant good design. This large "Toolbox" we've been given is currently being used as a toilet by Nullifiers.

SInce U18 they noticeably increased their spawn rate though, so good luck with getting them changed.

 

[LZWilde]

Nulls were most idiotic enemy ever created and they were created only to counter Mags greedy pull. They did the job, but in the process screwed every other frame and portion of guns. On paper 1vs1 they are just fine, but this game is horde of mooks versus few tenno. Synergy they are creating with other units is just absurdly insane.

DE don't like to admit they made a mistakes (it took them few times to "balance" Viver" (lets nerf Trinity even more!!!), but uproar was too great and DE had to admit defeat). Nulls still be there, nothing will change. Meh in general.

[Kutsus]

Just make nullie shields be destroyed by dmg instead of fire rate.... this is such an obvious solution that has been suggested uncountable times... cmon DE atleast try it!

[Relentless.Zen]

47 minutes ago, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

the problem is their spawn rate+abilities+area of effect is so unforgiving that it is hard to survive even 30 min in T4S alone with banshee. AND IM NOT SAYING ITS A PROBLEM AFTER LVL 150 SO GET IT OVER WITH

theres your problem. why do you play banshee solo in void rofl :D

[IceColdHawk]

I just like it how most people complain about hyekkas and bursas being op, even though you can easily outplay them, but think nullifiers are okay. Just too good.

1 hour ago, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

Was it to prevent AOE CC ability spam or immortality ability abuse and promotes gunplay? THEN DON'T BLOCK BULLETS! IT IS STRESS INDUCING WHEN YOU ARE USING SLOW FIRE RATE WEAPONS!

Exactly this. Those nullifier drones in the raid are okay. Scrambus and Combas were pretty much balanced and since they don't block EVERYTHING, they block only a specific type of ability each. I like them.

But nullifiers...oh boy...They are made to force us to use guns instead of abilities, right? Okay. So might someone explain me why slow-hitting guns don't really work agains them, forcing me to use good ol' soma prime? (don't get me started on bows/snipers). Or why do i get forced to slide in and risk my life? (since also every ability like chroma's vex armor gets just disspelled). Funny thing is how nullifiers get buffed every time something works against them. Remember atomos? It used to ignore his shield. Or even better, AoEs also don't work anymore. It's not like frosts bubble can't block AoEs neither right?

Nullifiers shouldn't be able to completely block everything, weapons should work against them AT LEAST! As of now, they are simply broken.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Well designed and balanced nullifier is grineer nullifier drone that spawn only in nightmare LoR. Corpus nullifier needs redesign. It's a hard counter anti-sniper and anti-bow bow unit. That unit shouldn't exist.

And Corpus nullifiers don't prevent power spam. People just spray them witb bullet hose occasionally. 

[Troll_Logic]

On 3/25/2016 at 0:39 PM, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

I seriously wanted to say that Banshee or mag and the other frames that are capable of doing some CC/area knockdown abilities is good on solo-ing high level corpus/void missions...

But guess what? Every time i wanted to bring a banshee with a bow out and do some high level corpus/void missions, Nullifiers just made me change my mind.

Why are they even existed?

Was it to prevent AOE CC ability spam or immortality ability abuse and promotes gunplay? THEN DON'T BLOCK BULLETS! IT IS STRESS INDUCING WHEN YOU ARE USING SLOW FIRE RATE WEAPONS!

or was it to promote sword play? player might lose their combo counter that ensures that they can still can do a considerable damage on the enemies after a long run when they are hitting the bubble using their melee weapons. AND NOT TO MENTION, there is only few frames that are viable for swordplay that can actually soak up some damage and WHICH they need to cast their abilities to prevent them from dying while reaching the enemies with their melee. 

In the end, i think nullifiers should get a rework, like may be changing their ability nullifying bubble into a 10 energy/ sec energy draining bubble that still blocks bullets but doesn't cancel your ability, OR make it remains the same(blocks bullets and prevent ability casting inside the bubble) but won't remove the ability effect that are already cast upon the players, OR make the shield smaller and looks like a 360 degree round barricade that has no rooftop that allows player to shoot the nullifiers directly if they are in the higher position.
 

You continually mention on how it makes you change how you play and then you wonder why they exist?

[LazyKnight]

Personally, I am just sick of nullifiers and their bubble, I do not find them hard, it more of of "Oh, joy more annoyance." They made going sword alone with Chroma and losing Vex armor (not the only warframes just most annoying for me by a landslide)  every time i need to kill them more trouble than it's worth. And the thing that really grinds my gears is i have to bring Kohmak to every mission with them just so i can use a bow or other slow shooting weapon.

[Xzorn]

30 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

You continually mention on how it makes you change how you play and then you wonder why they exist?

Nullifiers don't just change the way you play, they pigeon hole it.

 

 

Nearly half the weapon roster is bad against Nullifiers. Most notably Snipers and Bows which require the highest skill cap.

This game rewards you for playing derpy and punishes you for playing skillfully. ie, Ignis.

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Xzorn

[pikaseechu]

I will say that I prefer Comba and Scrambus over nullifiers, and with proper buffs, they could replace nullifiers altogether.

 

Comba and Scrambus are tanky, they cancel abilities, but they don't negate them. They can deal tons of damage, but can equally receive them in turn. Even with my Sancti Tigris, it takes 4 shots to down them in higher level missions and about 6 at lvl 100. (I'm talking 27k per shot, close-enough-to-melee-them in the face kind of distance between my Sancti's barrel and them.) I actually have to move, jump around and locate them. They can cancel your abilities from a distance and are usually very fast, mobile, and hard to get alone. Their entourage of corpus Tech, Ospreys, and crewmen can make them a welcome challenge.

 

Nullifiers have some magical bubble that cancels our abilities, doesn't allow us to cast them inside, and acts as a shield in which our bullets DO NOT PENETRATE. They also have SNIPERS which they use liberally when they see us approaching, and any entourage they may have dragged from hell with them bunches up inside said bubble to maul us down when we're in close proximity. They themselves aren't tanky, and will die at lvl 100 with one shot to the face from the same Sancti Tigris I use on Comba/Scrambus units.

 

I would love to see Comba and Scrambus get some kind of buff when they can do a negation of abilities like nullifiers in a cone-shaped area in front of them a la Inaros' sand-in-face. Similar to Valkyr's Paralysis animation, they can cast a wave of energy to remove debuffs like Nova's MP or Ember's Accelarant, and their AI could choose freely which units (like a Corpus Tech vs a Bursa) it wants to help. They can do so to multiple enemies seeing how mobile they are on tilesets, and would help solidify their role as a type of Tenno debuffer on the field. This prevents the magical omnipotent bubbles, does not interfere with our abilities, and will allow us more time to shoot our enemies and cast abilities but still make Comba and Scrambus a challenge on the field.  

If something like this happens, they would have to remove nullifiers, and its something I've desired for some time since they introduced our Corpus roller-skating heavies with electrical whips. (I really like these guys, if you couldn't tell. Seeing their designs in devstreams made me puke rainbows.)

[-Ryuurei-]

The modular corpus are much better, although I woild like a clearly visible range indicator on their disruption, also volt is a viable melee frame if you run toxin dmg to kill nullifiers at practically any level.

[Troll_Logic]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Nullifiers don't just change the way you play, they pigeon hole it.

Nearly half the weapon roster is bad against Nullifiers. Most notably Snipers and Bows which require the highest skill cap.

This game rewards you for playing derpy and punishes you for playing skillfully. ie, Ignis.

They make people change the way they play.  So players can't have "This is my ultimate killing setup that wins against everything." and use it every mission.

[IceColdHawk]

3 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

They make people change the way they play.  So players can't have "This is my ultimate killing setup that wins against everything." and use it every mission.

True. Instead it is: "Fk, i got no way to win against this menace, RETREAT!". They block EVERY ability. AoE weapon completely pointless. Not to mention high fire rate continuous weapons like ignis and amprex, just wasting ammo. Slow hitting weapons no chance. Melee too risky. Only bullethoses do the job fast and safe enough. And don't get me started about the almost non existent bubble cooldown...

Edited March 25, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[-NEO-Roguelike]

Im really appreciate Nullifiers almost at all - they ake the game more challenging etc. But heres really fact - what high firerate weapons > low firerate weapons. And thats (in my opinion) is completely dumb. Idk what the devs was thinking about,when build this system. Its really neccesary to have minimum one high firerate weapon on T3\T4 missions,and its really sucks =(

Edited March 25, 2016 by Roguelike

[Xzorn]

45 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

They make people change the way they play.  So players can't have "This is my ultimate killing setup that wins against everything." and use it every mission.

So by that logic I shouldn't be using Ignis on 100% of content under level 50. Including Tower4 Ext, MD and basically any non-endless or Sorties.

Yet I do.

For higher level stuff, just bring a high RoF weapon pop the bubble in 2 seconds and continue as usual. Nullifiers have failed at whatever purpose they were supposed to serve and now only hinder your selection of weapons and frames. (As if the selection wasn't small enough for high level play).

 

[Valkyrion]

OP i assume you're a good player but.... I think Bows and snipers should go through nullifier bubbles .... but they won't listen to me...
IT'S THE ONLY WAY

[magusat999]

Someone mentioned the places that got beat up - I just wanted to add that before Viver it was Xini. When Xini was a defense mission and not just A defense mission but THE defense mission. Anyways, I agree with the OP about the Nullifier issue - especially at higher levels of play. I don't think higher level of play means "Just throw the kitchen sink at 'em and if they make, they make it..." I think high level play should have just as much thought put into the design as the rest of the game. High level players want a challenge - yes, but that doesn't mean they accept anything just because it's "hard". What I visualize when the OP says "lazy design" is an attitude that throwing hard stuff in the level is "high level game design". You know it isn't good design because you cannot win. A game should always have a way to win, but lately the philosophy here is to stop people from advancing at all costs - and calling it "a challenge".

Edited March 26, 2016 by magusat999

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Not remove, make them like grineer nullifier. Make any attacks go through the bubble, and bubble should be impossible to shrink, you need to kill nullifier. To compensate nullifier itself should become tanky.

That would instantly make snipers and bows viable and make nullifiers actually work against power spam. 

Did I mention that because sortie 3 nullifiers can oneshot almost all warframes with maxed defensive mods slotted they basically invalidate not just snipers and bows but all warframes that can't create a target rich environment - Nyx and irradiated disarm loki or be invincible - valkyr. That's not absurdly high level that supposed to be unplayable, that's basic endgame mission. It's absurdly, terrible design. 

[magusat999]

Also, the Nullifiers are used for blocking paths and as others have mentioned protecting other dangerous enemies. When Nullifiers were first introduced, they didn't use their bubble to bring a whole gang of enemies to you. They did not run at you (of course trying to dispell you). They were not around every corner. It became the mess it is over time, evidently the DEVs feeling they accomplished something because people are inhibited and frustrated with this ridiculous enemy. 

I wanted to add to this conversation the other thing Nullifiers bring - a one hit killing Butcher (Corrupted). I was trying to figure out what was killing me - usually I am working on that bubble and next thing you know I'm at the Revive screen. I thought it was the Nullifier - but no. Maybe a Sniper? Couldn't find one. no - it is a Corrupted Butcher with a cleaver who comes from behind you when you are occupied with the Nullifier and apparently has a sneak bonus or high critical rate. He cuts right through shields and wipes out your whole life! I see them break out of the bubble now that i know - and have to adjust with leap slamming (forcing a good slam weapon) just in case he is right out of view.

The point of that is the whole balance is off. High level or not it is way too much. And lets not forget that there are other enemies that scrub your energy and disable your skills - it isn't an either / or - you get all of these in one level! So what's the point of skills (abilities) if your turning them off one way or another every 5 seconds???

[Scar.Heart]

8 hours ago, Hemmo67 said:

press 4 to win

 

Right there. That's what Nullifiers were the answer to.

Sadly, DE didn't think this through entirely. Instead of fixing the core problem (read: Press-4-to-win), they just slapped on another band-aid, and called it a day.

There's a way to fix all this. DE simply doesn't want to.

[Tar_Spit_Fire]

great... all these players that are protecting this poor and lazy enemy mechanic design... welp, see you guys when a corpus nightmare trials full of Eximus nullies+comba+scrambus comes out

[magusat999]

3 minutes ago, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

great... all these players that are protecting this poor and lazy enemy mechanic design... welp, see you guys when a corpus nightmare trials full of Eximus nullies+comba+scrambus comes out

Who is protecting it? The majority of the posts - including my wall of text is supporting you. I for one, completely agree and a lot of us do here.