Why do nullifiers still exist?

[fatpig84]

Just now, Troll_Logic said:

How exactly would you realistically adjust a bow to the equivalent of a grenade launcher? 

In RL no, but in a game yes.
We know DE can stop explosives from breaching Nullifer globes, so they certainly have the know how on how to make the weapon bypass the globe instead.

And it is just 2 weapon classes being exempted for now.
Snipers and bows are inherently unpopular due to the game's mobbing and fast pace nature, so we have to make more incentives for people to use them. Especially people who are willing to handle their quirks.

[Troll_Logic]

2 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

As I said before, DE only needs to make 1 change.
Bows and Sniper rifles to completely ignores the Nuliifer dome.

Let's say DE does that.  Here's the scenario everyone hates...

Multiple overlapping nullifiers

One shot from a bow.  Cast something.

One shot from a bow.  Cast something.

One shot from a sniper rifle.  Cast something.

One shot from a sniper rifle.  Cast something.

 

Naw.  Nothing wrong with that scenario.  

Come on man.

[Troll_Logic]

1 minute ago, fatpig84 said:

In RL no, but in a game yes.
We know DE can stop explosives from breaching Nullifer globes, so they certainly have the know how on how to make the weapon bypass the globe instead.

And it is just 2 weapon classes being exempted for now.
Snipers and bows are inherently unpopular due to the game's mobbing and fast pace nature, so we have to make more incentives for people to use them. Especially people who are willing to handle their quirks.

You're missing the point of the nullifiers.  They are there to stop warframe magic.  To stop players from using their abilities to wipe out scores of enemies at once.  To make the players interact with the enemy differently.

Let's say DE implements your suggestion.  Then all it takes is someone to bring a bow, stand in a high spot, pop the nullifier with a single shot, and that player is back to wiping out scores of enemies at once.

The bow and sniper rifle would literally be a magic bullet and all it takes is a single player with a bow or sniper rifle and it's like the nullifier doesn't even exist in the game.

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, bbeeaann said:

    The OP was asking why Nullifiers are still in the game. I do believe that is more than just a rework stance lol

    -snip-

Dude, did you actually read OP's post?  " In the end, i think nullifiers should get a rework, "

 

I kinda explained how they remove your weapon options a lot now.

Low RoF weapons are simply bad against them, esp Snipers/Bows. This deficiency gets worse as enemy level increases, so much that's it's no longer an option.

You don't change tactics you simply spray the bubble and CC. If you try a low RoF weapon at any significant level you will likely die before you get their bubble down. Hell, the mob itself can one shot most frames past that level. You simply don't have time to use any low RoF weapons against them and Melee is definitely not an option.

They also seriously hurt buff based frames. Chroma going into a bubble is a death sentence,

Chroma before going into a bubble = 50keHP,

Chroma in bubble = 2k,

Chroma killed him, cool, reapply Vex... oh but wait you're shields haven't recovered, you still have no armor bonus... Dead Chroma.

[fatpig84]

7 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Let's say DE does that.  Here's the scenario everyone hates...

Multiple overlapping nullifiers

One shot from a bow.  Cast something.

One shot from a bow.  Cast something.

One shot from a sniper rifle.  Cast something.

One shot from a sniper rifle.  Cast something.

 

Naw.  Nothing wrong with that scenario.  

Come on man.

Yeah but they have to hit their targets to get the benefit.
Where else Soma bro, just left click over the dome for 2 seconds and it's gone.
Even with overlapping nullifiers. See they can cast spells after 2 seconds too and they don't even need to kill the Nullifier.

Never mind that arrows have a travel time on top of it.

In fact, the change i propose won't even change the meta at all.
But it returns the niche of killing HVTs to snipers and bows.
If you think making bows and snipers ignore Nullifier globes will see their use explode to tonkor or even Boltor Prime levels, you are so wrong.

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by fatpig84

[Troll_Logic]

16 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

Yeah but they have to hit their targets to get the benefit.
Where else Soma bro, just left click over the dome for 2 seconds and it's gone.
Even with overlapping nullifiers. See they can cast spells after 2 seconds too. 

Never mind that arrows have a travel time on top of it.

In fact, the change i propose won't even change the meta at all.
But it returns the niche of killing HVTs to snipers and bows.
If you think making bows and snipers ignore Nullifier globes will see their use explode to tonkor levels, you are so wrong.

 

But not really.  Maybe a player's soma can take down a nullifier.  But it takes a full magazine.  Ever shot a nullifier bubble and not take it down completely before the reload?  Then the player has to reload the weapon.  They can be attacked at that time.  Since they are burning through so much ammo they can run out.  Many things can happen.  

Arrows do have a travel time but anyone who really like bows rarely need more than a single arrow to adjust for a hit.  So that's two shots for a kill.  Then the player can cast to their heart's content.  3 bubbles overlapped?  Not a big deal for a bow or sniper rifle.  You want those shots to cut right through.  But dude, don't act like it's a breeze for even the best automatic primary.  Cutting down three overlapping bubbles is daunting.  Multiple reloads.  Add in a couple dozen Corpus shooting back.  Sappers flying.  Nullfiers growing back if they're not killed.  And the player is burning through ammo at a furious pace while staying in a single position.  It isn't easy.

I'm not saying bows and sniper rifles use would exponentially increase, but I do know that if a bow or a sniper rifle cut through a nullifier bubble then there isn't any reason to equip any other weapon.  The bow/sniper rifle to kill the nullifier and back to using warframe magic to kill everything else.

Nullifiers are supposed to be a challenge.  Not "10 shots to kill 8 nullifiers and magic to kill everything else."

 

 

One thing.  I love bows.  Really.  I hate sniper rifles.  So useless.  I often play with a bow.  I know when I play with a bow I'm not going to lead the team in kills.  I know I'm not going to get a ton of kills.  I know there are limitations and real negatives to playing with a bow rather than the soma or boltor.  But I play with the bow because it's fun.  It's a blast to play with so I trade the raw numbers for the joy of playing with the bow.  

Same with with the carrier versus the kubrow.  The carrier is infinitely more versatile and useful,  But the kubrow is just so much fun to play with.

But the bow and the sniper rifle will never be equivalent in the game.  They simply can't be.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Troll_Logic

[akira_him]

1 minute ago, Troll_Logic said:

But not really.  Maybe a player's soma can take down a nullifier.  But it takes a full magazine.  Ever shot a nullifier bubble and not take it down completely before the reload?  Then the player has to reload the weapon.  They can be attacked at that time.  Since they are burning through so much ammo they can run out.  Many things can happen.  

Arrows do have a travel time but anyone who really like bows rarely need more than a single arrow to adjust for a hit.  So that's two shots for a kill.  Then the player can cast to their heart's content.  3 bubbles overlapped?  Not a big deal for a bow or sniper rifle.  You want those shots to cut right through.  But dude, don't act like it's a breeze for even the best automatic primary.  Cutting down three overlapping bubbles is daunting.  Multiple reloads.  Add in a couple dozen Corpus shooting back.  Sappers flying.  Nullfiers growing back if they're not killed.  And the player is burning through ammo at a furious pace while staying in a single position.  It isn't easy.

I'm not saying bows and sniper rifles use would exponentially increase, but I do know that if a bow or a sniper rifle cut through a nullifier bubble then there isn't any reason to equip any other weapon.  The bow/sniper rifle to kill the nullifier and back to using warframe magic to kill everything else.

Nullifiers are supposed to be a challenge.  Not "10 shots to kill 8 nullifiers and magic to kill everything else."

you don't need a whole mag to pop the bubble, 15 bullets will do, even with no burst fire you only need 30bullets, so you still have 90bullets for 1 bubble

and bow and sniper cannot deal with multiple groups of mobs, while automatics and explosives can

[Rambit23Z]

20 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Dude, did you actually read OP's post?  " In the end, i think nullifiers should get a rework, "

 

I kinda explained how they remove your weapon options a lot now.

Low RoF weapons are simply bad against them, esp Snipers/Bows. This deficiency gets worse as enemy level increases, so much that's it's no longer an option.

You don't change tactics you simply spray the bubble and CC. If you try a low RoF weapon at any significant level you will likely die before you get their bubble down. Hell, the mob itself can one shot most frames past that level. You simply don't have time to use any low RoF weapons against them and Melee is definitely not an option.

They also seriously hurt buff based frames. Chroma going into a bubble is a death sentence,

Chroma before going into a bubble = 50keHP,

Chroma in bubble = 2k,

Chroma killed him, cool, reapply Vex... oh but wait you're shields haven't recovered, you still have no armor bonus... Dead Chroma.

Going into the bubble works just fine. I do that as Saryn which has even less EHP. (NOTE: I don't use QT)

You just have to be fast.

[akira_him]

38 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

You know. The biggest complaint with Nullifiers seem to be their single-shot weapon countering. Here's my tip to you.

Enter the bubble. The actual crewman is absolutely made of paper. You can even kill him through the Corrupted Ancient damage reduction. And hey, peoples favourite weapon (Tonkor) doesn't even deal self damage.

this dude see random sniper, ask sniper to get close so his sniper rifle can poke enemie's face, seems legit

[Troll_Logic]

2 minutes ago, akira_him said:

you don't need a whole mag to pop the bubble, 15 bullets will do, even with no burst fire you only need 30bullets, so you still have 90bullets for 1 bubble

and bow and sniper cannot deal with multiple groups of mobs, while automatics and explosives can

Once again I must have the worst weapon in the game because I don't think I've ever completely removed the bubble with 15 shots.  Maybe with a lvl 3 nullifier.  I guess.

Yes, bows and sniper rifles are different that automatic weapons and explosives so they do different things.  You can't make them equal.

[Rambit23Z]

Just now, akira_him said:

this dude see random sniper, ask sniper to get close so his sniper rifle can poke enemie's face, seems legit

You have more than one weapon you know.

[akira_him]

1 minute ago, Troll_Logic said:

Once again I must have the worst weapon in the game because I don't think I've ever completely removed the bubble with 15 shots.  Maybe with a lvl 3 nullifier.  I guess.

Yes, bows and sniper rifles are different that automatic weapons and explosives so they do different things.  You can't make them equal.

there is  a delay between the hit and the size reduce, shooting more bullets during the delay period will waste your bullet, I mean I can deplete the bubble with 7-9 shots with a latron, in a sortie 3

things sniper/bow can do, automatic/explosive can do,

things automatic/explosive can do, sniper cannot do,

things automatic/explosive cannot do, no way sniper/can do

see the problem?

1 minute ago, Rambit23Z said:

You have more than one weapon you know.

you don't need to bring another weapon if you are using automatic primary

[--DSP--]

At least it's not as bad as the new Corpus thing... right :D?  ;c

 

[Troll_Logic]

6 minutes ago, akira_him said:

there is  a delay between the hit and the size reduce, shooting more bullets during the delay period will waste your bullet, I mean I can deplete the bubble with 7-9 shots with a latron, in a sortie 3

things sniper/bow can do, automatic/explosive can do,

things automatic/explosive can do, sniper cannot do,

things automatic/explosive cannot do, no way sniper/can do

see the problem?

Learn something new every day.

I don't see a problem because other than being equipped in the primary slot, they have nothing in common.  Look, I'm not against buffing the bow.  Buff the hell out of it.  But single shot killing a nullifier is game breaking in my opinion.

[Rambit23Z]

8 minutes ago, akira_him said:

you don't need to bring another weapon if you are using automatic primary

Then there's not a problem.

[akira_him]

1 minute ago, Troll_Logic said:

Learn something new every day.

I don't see a problem because other than being equipped in the primary slot, they have nothing in common.  Look, I'm not against buffing the bow.  Buff the hell out of it.  But single shot killing a nullifier is game breaking in my opinion.

in that case you still have combas and bursas, and shield polarise is getting a rework

1 minute ago, Rambit23Z said:

Then there's not a problem.

that's the problem, there's no point bringing snipers over automatic in the first place if the mission have nulllifier

[Rambit23Z]

Just now, akira_him said:

that's the problem, there's no point bringing snipers over automatic in the first place if the mission have nulllifier

There is though, it's about playstyle. And again. That's why you have 3 weapon slots. If I bring a shotgun, it's sensible to bring a long range secondary like the Lex Prime or Spire Prime.

[letir]

Just now, Rambit23Z said:

There is though, it's about playstyle. And again. That's why you have 3 weapon slots. If I bring a shotgun, it's sensible to bring a long range secondary like the Lex Prime or Spire Prime.

It's not about "playstyle". Auto rifles, hell, even DMR rifles do everything better than sniper rifles. They clear crowds better, they handle fast gameplay easier. And on top of that one single enemy completly denied any sniper/bow from their main use.

Why should anyone bring a sniper rifle, if he can bring usual rifle? There is no comptetion, no "playstyle" and no "you have second weapon slot, use that".

[kubbi]

On 24 maart 2016 at 6:12 PM, Genoscythe said:

I bet we will soon get a mod that gives us a random chance to ignore nullifier effects.

This is actually happening lmao

Miter augment mod mentioned in the devstream that can pop nullifier bubble instantly *facepalm*

[Lijka]

While I agree that nullifiers need some tweaks, they are a neccesary part of the game.

They are one way of increasing difficulty of the game without adding more and more bullet-sponge enemies. It's this kind of enemy that makes the Tenno rely on more than one weapon/ability. That requires some quick thinking and sometimes even specific tactic. Exactly as the OP says, it's to prevent spamming certain abilities.

The tweaks I spoke of are for example letting sniper rifles and bows shoot through the bubble. There should be a limit of how many nullifiers can spawn on the map at the same time or there should be a cooldown on their spawn.

Yesterday's second sortie, which was an excavation with enemies with elemental enhancement turned into a nightmare due to waves of overlapping nullifiers protecting bursas. Now this is the issue that should be looked into, not eliminating nullifiers entirely.

[Rambit23Z]

1 hour ago, letir said:

It's not about "playstyle". Auto rifles, hell, even DMR rifles do everything better than sniper rifles. They clear crowds better, they handle fast gameplay easier. And on top of that one single enemy completly denied any sniper/bow from their main use.

Why should anyone bring a sniper rifle, if he can bring usual rifle? There is no comptetion, no "playstyle" and no "you have second weapon slot, use that".

Snipers excel at taking out high priority targets. Snipers can reach exceptional burst dps. Especially the Rubico. However, people have become so accustomed to their Somas, Tonkors and Simulors that they view everything else as trash. I bring along my Vulkar Wraith/Rubico/Vectis Prime from time to time.

[akira_him]

15 minutes ago, bbeeaann said:

      Because you want to use a sniper rifle? One of my favorite weapons is the Latron. I don't need an automatic to top the scores. I headshot everything, so enemies don't tend to stay around when I shoot at them. I don't mindlessly smash through missions. I efficiently decimate the enemy using every tool at my disposal. This includes my frames abilities, primary and secondary weapons, and my melee weapons. I don't take one weapon into a mission expecting not to adapt to the scenarios found in missions such as yourself. If you want to top the scores using a sniper rifle. IF you expect to keep up with others in the game using a bow or sniper rifles that have limited ammo capacity you're playing the wrong game. Adapting to the ever changing enemy isn't mindless approaching it; that would be regulated to players who refuse to change weapons to kill enemies DE specifically designed to keep them from approaching missions in the fashion you and the OP are.

I won't take the weapon that isn't suitable for that mission, that also called adaptation. in this case sniper is not suitable in any mission that have nullifiers, sniper work absolutely fine in grinneer mission

if changing a weapon won't take ages that enemy can kill you ten times, I would more than willing to switch my weapon, but no, I should just stick with my sybaris, at least it shares the advantage of automatics and pretty high damage

[akira_him]

26 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

Snipers excel at taking out high priority targets. -snip-

nullifier is high piority target

snipers should be excel in taking them out

sniper cannot deal with nullifier or any high piority targer inside it

something definately needs to be changed

[akira_him]

Just now, bbeeaann said:

     Snipers work fine against any faction as long as you don't expect to stand still and get easy kills. How hard is it to charge a Nullifier, drop in his bubble and kill him with your sniper rifle? Do you know how often I do that when I use my sniper rifles? In Void, or against Corpus in normal missions or Sorties, I do this regularly. You're complaining about an enemy specifically designed to keep players from approaching the game like you're doing. If you expect to use one weapon through the entire mission expect disappointment because DE doesn't want you doing that. You can do this, but don't expect an easy time. And definitely don't expect DE to change the game to appease you either. The company doesn't want people pigeon holing content like you're doing.

why would you like to charge with a sniper but not a shotgun, what kind of action shooter I am playing?

[S3EK3R]

On 2016. 03. 24. at 10:55 PM, Troll_Logic said:

They make people change the way they play.  So players can't have "This is my ultimate killing setup that wins against everything." and use it every mission.

They force you play a certain playstyle, if you use a skill and tactical based build. It's a cheap unit designed purely to annoy players.

Scrub loadout: Soma Prime, Rhino Prime. No need to change playstyle. Just pump a map into the nullifier and it's done for.

Loadout based on skill: (Example): Nezha, Vectis Prime, Lex Prime, Dual Kama Prime. FORCES me to melee slide into the nullifier, diasbling my Warding Halo (The only thing keeping me alive in high-end) and opens me up to attacks from every angle.

 

Thank you very much. Just rework the nullifiers already.