Why do nullifiers still exist?

[TheBrsrkr]

10 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Ability AND weapon spam? More like ability and weapon USAGE.

At the time it was spam. Back then, Corrupted Bombards didn't exist. Or the AFK timer. Or Ancient auras. Basically the entire game was a shooting gallery for the most part. 4 spam was even worse back then, where enemies literally couldn't do anything at all. Nullifiers were a stopgap countermeasure for this. Built specifically to target the worst offenders at the time, it killed a lot of the left click and press 4 to win play that was spreading like cancer. They're pretty broken, yes, but the weapons and frames were (and still are) just as if not more broken. If they are removed the exact same problem will return, so no,they're here to stay. 

23 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

But to come back to the ability spam part, well, DE is already on it. Look at mag's future rework or saryn's rework. Nullifiers don't only block spam, they also block everything else and require cheap methods to get bypassed.

The Mag and Saryn rework took near to 3 months each. What do you suppose they would do in the meantime? Sit there and twiddle their thumbs while we spam away? Nullifiers weren't built to stop spam, they were there to normalize it. Make spam the default setting because it was at the time. 

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

They're pretty broken, yes

Thanks for being reasonable.

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

 but the weapons and frames were (and still are) just as if not more broken. 

Sure, won't deny that. But why still nullifier? The corpus already got so many units that make them pretty strong. We also got a new enemy like the scrambus. Those work exactly how a nullifier should work before. Look, i really wouldn't have a problem at all with nullifiers if they get toned down a bit. Not removed completely. But they render bows and snipers completely useless, aoe's don't even bypass the shield and all that stuff. It's a forcefield that should negate powers, not bullets or explosions. 

While some abilities are broken (e.G: Prism), you can avoid them. You don't have to play the way it cheeses. But if you wanna play on a less broken way against corpus, you got no choice. You can't avoid nullifiers. And you are more or less forced to play valkyr and/or bring a high RoF weapon with you (since everything else simply doesn't work fast enough).

13 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Nullifiers weren't built to stop spam, they were there to normalize it. Make spam the default setting because it was at the time. 

That's actually not so true. Wanna know why? Simply because the most broken abilities are funnily, the most effective against nullifiers. They actually don't care about them. Bring soma prime, shoot the bubble down and cast 2 as mag. Or 4 twice as mirage. Nullifiers are a broken band-aid that simply only reduces the enjoyment for most of the people. (sniper only sortie, mhhm).

[TheBrsrkr]

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

ure, won't deny that. But why still nullifier?.

Kills 2 birds with one stone. Weapons were acting like the Slammacor, and abilities were being ridiculous. They're a hard cap on CC and damage and very good at it. It forces you to pay attention rather than be a spambot. It takes a set amount of time to kill it, rather than dying in one shot like everything else. It also helps other enemies approach without being instantly disintegrated. Scrambus are really good, but still lack the effect Nullifiers have on the battlefield. 

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

 

That's actually not so true. Wanna know why? Simply because the most broken abilities are funnily, the most effective against nullifiers. They actually don't care about them. 

Yes they do  as shown here:

 

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

 Bring soma prime, shoot the bubble down and cast 2 as mag. Or 4 twice as mirage. 

While it may not seem like much of an improvement, doing these is a far cry from what used to happen before. I don't think we even had Mirage back then (was Mirage before or after U15?) or at least I didn't see her, and we also didn't have Bombards as I said before. You could have wiped the floor with up to level 250 enemies simply because they couldn't even get off a shot before being completely locked down and/or disintegrated. Nullifiers give the enemy a chance to actually do something. Not a great chance, but a chance. 

Also, that's exactly what I meant by normalized. You have to use them to get anywhere now. Think of it as making an early game miniboss a standard enemy later on.

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

. Nullifiers are a broken band-aid that simply only reduces the enjoyment for most of the people. (sniper only sortie, mhhm).

All too true, but alternative methods are being worked on. Slowly. 

[Troll_Logic]

6 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

They're pretty broken, yes, but the weapons and frames were (and still are) just as if not more broken.

How exactly is everything broken?  The nullifiers are broken?  The weapons are even more broken along with the even more broken warframes?  How does that make any sense?

[JackSilva]

People complain about the game being to hard, if u dont like how it is dont play corpus or void missions lol, nulifiers make the game chalenging wich is awesome and good for the veteran players.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, JackSilva said:

People complain about the game being to hard, if u dont like how it is dont play corpus or void missions lol, nulifiers make the game chalenging wich is awesome and good for the veteran players.

The game hasn't been difficult since Damage 2.0. In a way it's never been difficult since there was cheese back then too.

Back then being forced to shoot an enemy in the head or do a buncha 1's and 2's made the game require a lot more attention as far as gun play is concerned.

 

Nullifiers are "fake difficulty". They're cheesey little tricks to try and overwhelm inexperienced players. Every time something like this is added it causes more harm that good, hence the massive weapon imbalance they cause. The Void is no harder than it's ever been, you're simply forced into using certain weapons.

You wanted to trick shot a simple hour session with a Pistol, Bow or Sniper??? Well too bad.... Nullifiers.

[JackSilva]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

The game hasn't been difficult since Damage 2.0. In a way it's never been difficult since there was cheese back then too.

Back then being forced to shoot an enemy in the head or do a buncha 1's and 2's made the game require a lot more attention as far as gun play is concerned.

 

Nullifiers are "fake difficulty". They're cheesey little tricks to try and overwhelm inexperienced players. Every time something like this is added it causes more harm that good, hence the massive weapon imbalance they cause. The Void is no harder than it's ever been, you're simply forced into using certain weapons.

You wanted to trick shot a simple hour session with a Pistol, Bow or Sniper??? Well too bad.... Nullifiers.

i like nuli's they give a challange in endurance void runs wich is awesome IMO, but players should stop complaining about it. i joined in U14.8 btw i dont realy know how it was before.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, JackSilva said:

i like nuli's they give a challange in endurance void runs wich is awesome IMO, but players should stop complaining about it. i joined in U14.8 btw i dont realy know how it was before.

It was better.

[Maicael]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

It was better.

It was easier. All enemies could be treated the same. Now you just have to prioritize a little.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, Maicael said:

It was easier. All enemies could be treated the same. Now you just have to prioritize a little.

Don't go the prioritizing way. Against corpus, you are forced to prioritize almost everything. And it still doesn't justify letting nullifier block abilities as well as weapons. It's not challenging, it's boring and annoying.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, JackSilva said:

i like nuli's they give a challange in endurance void runs wich is awesome IMO, but players should stop complaining about it. i joined in U14.8 btw i dont realy know how it was before.

I don't see how they present any extra challenge unless you're just using the wrong weapons.

By wrong weapons I mean not using the ones that Nullifiers pigeon hole you into using.

Just cuz you like them and think they bring challenge doesn't mean they don't have serious weapon imbalance results or that people shouldn't complain about that.

Weapons with the highest skill value have the lowest rewards. It's been like that for a while though, Nullifiers just remove the option entirely.

 

[Futurehero]

You can bring down the Nullifier bubble with pretty much any melee weapon short of a dagger. If you're the kind of guy who brings a slow firing secondary with his slow firing primary, you're bad at Warframe.  

Also, going into a nullifier bubble isn't instant death. There are plenty of Warframes that can do that. 

They're an enemy meant to counter AOE ability cheese. Don't like it? Ask for that AOE ability cheese to be nerfed, and nullifiers won't have a purpose anymore.

[(PSN)Mazda_07_]

The whole point of the enemy is to get its crew to you so you don't instant kill them . It's a strategy . You JUST said it they become troublesome once they hit 150 which is accurate.  By that point YOU SHOULD HAVE A PROBLEM with them THE GAME SHOULD BEAT YOU TO A PULP once you get far enough . I have no idea about bursa though since I'm on consoles. 

Edited March 27, 2016 by (PS4)Mazda_07_

[Xzorn]

What's with the people who seem to have this mislead view that the level limit for fair play is 100 and if you go higher it's somehow the player's fault for dealing with unfair situations?

 

You do see the massive power creep in this game right? I can do 13million damage these days, there's no way I could do that a year ago. There are frames that can spam constant 40-120k AoE or Melee AoE for 840k and you somehow expect people to sit in their play pens?

The Devs said in stream almost 2 years ago they didn't expect people to solo level 100 mobs, now you have Sorties which if you look up the U18 patch notes they say "Sorties..... for group or Solo".

They also said there would not be "Capes" and now we have Syandanas.

The point is; things change and if you somehow think people would have constant damage creep and not venture forward, you're simply a fool.

 

Nullifiers limit your selection of weapons, THAT is their sin.

It's bad enough I have to deal with the bad design around CPx4 Viral limiting my 98 weapon selection to 10.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Xzorn

[Zookes]

On 3/25/2016 at 3:55 PM, Troll_Logic said:

They make people change the way they play.  So players can't have "This is my ultimate killing setup that wins against everything." and use it every mission.

Okay, then over here I have my ultimate nullifier killing setup, which is the only thing I dare play on endgame Corpus missions.

I can still win all the time, but it isn't very fun.

[Maicael]

16 minutes ago, Zookes said:

Okay, then over here I have my ultimate nullifier killing setup, which is the only thing I dare play on endgame Corpus missions.

I can still win all the time, but it isn't very fun.

I just run into their bubble and kill them with my slow, high-powered bow, or I would regularly use Sonicor to deal with them and ragdoll enemies as they are revealed from their bubble. Hek, even gone in and quick-melee them when using the Glaive I could've thrown in and exploded. Aside from their bubble, they're pretty weak even at lvl 125. Spawn 20 of them in Simulacrum and see how many you can melee before they actually kill you. They're pretty inaccurate if you're moving at all, doesn't have to include bullet jumping(multiple misses even at 3m for some reason).

Edited March 28, 2016 by Maicael

[Zookes]

5 minutes ago, Maicael said:

I just run into their bubble and kill them with my slow, high-powered bow, or I would regularly use Sonicor to deal with them and ragdoll enemies as they are revealed from their bubble. Hek, even gone in and quick-melee them when using the Glaive I could've thrown in and exploded. Aside from their bubble, they're pretty weak even at lvl 125. Spawn 20 of them in Simulacrum and see how many you can melee without them hitting you. They're pretty inaccurate if you're moving at all, doesn't have to include bullet jumping(multiple misses even at 3m for some reason).

Do you like Corpus sorties?
How about Corpus sortie interception in the ship tileset?
How about Corpus sortie interception in the ship tileset at lvl 80-100?

If you can run into a 3-nullifier cluster stuffed with sapper bombs and bursas with your slow, high-powered bow / sonicor and come out the other side NOT deader than dead, let alone victorious against said nullifiers, I will eat my words on paper.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Zookes

[Maicael]

The back and forth isn't really going anywhere, so how about a compromise?

Nullifiers get moved to non-endless missions as an uncommon spawn, similar to Grineer Commanders, and perhaps even limited to a specific planet (like Guardsman or Manic Bombard) where whatever Corpus boss it is has a research/production facility that they're using to create these shield projection units. (Maybe using the same idea behind Tyl Regor is too repetitive though.)

In return, Comba/Scrambus get changed to be immune to all powers themselves regardless of distance cast from (still only capable of nullifying their specific power set when in range). This would prevent being able to disable these specific units.

[Troll_Logic]

2 hours ago, Zookes said:

Okay, then over here I have my ultimate nullifier killing setup, which is the only thing I dare play on endgame Corpus missions.

I can still win all the time, but it isn't very fun.

So you have a setup specifically for nullifiers.

That's my point.

[Maicael]

3 hours ago, Zookes said:

Do you like Corpus sorties?
How about Corpus sortie interception in the ship tileset?
How about Corpus sortie interception in the ship tileset at lvl 80-100?

If you can run into a 3-nullifier cluster stuffed with sapper bombs and bursas with your slow, high-powered bow / sonicor and come out the other side NOT deader than dead, let alone victorious against said nullifiers, I will eat my words on paper.

Yes, I always Pug sorties too (except solo on Spy), so it's interesting not knowing who's going to bring what (although most of the time there's a Mag against Corpus)

It's ok. I prefer being able to keep my eye on 2 or more points at a time, but you can't do that on it with the doors and the point at the top. I like the Grineer one on Earth that has all the ziplines. Doesn't have many laser doors for Mirage's Sleight of Hand either. The Operative Defense is pretty fun there though.

Using Toxin damage to bypass their shield scaling makes them relatively easy to kill even at sortie levels if you're using a weapon that can handle it. Rakta Cernos is pretty much my "any mission" go to primary.
 

The Sniper only Corpus Survival from some time last season was quite the pain though.

What I thought was really frustrating was the Corpus Sabotage sortie when Bursas first came out. Going from 56 enemies to exterminate to 297 enemies by groups of 5-6 over 45 minutes was annoying. Especially the moment where it was 187/188 with the Bursa already down and its console beeping, then jumping up to 188/194 as soon as it died. Our fourth player going AFK a third of the way through didn't help either. (There was no alarm console to deactivate. We even blew out some windows to force it to let us hack consoles.)

Edited March 28, 2016 by Maicael

[magusat999]

On 3/27/2016 at 11:53 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

Ability and weapon spam needed to be reined in. Nullifiers do exactly that. 

There is no such thing as "Ability and weapon spam". You cannot survive without abilities and you cannot eliminate the enemies without weapons. Your just parroting some propaganda statement that started floating around a while back about a specific issue, applying it in a place it does not apply. That statement means nothing in a game that is built around using abilities and weapons. It's like asking people to come to a birthday party and then telling them they cannot eat the cake - makes no sense. You don't like weapons and abilities - play Street Fighter... oh that's right, they have abilities too so I guess Street Fighter would annoy you also... I'll never get why people play a game that features certain aspects, and call those features "spamming" because people want to use them. Instead of condemning the player for using abilities, how about asking DE to build a game that challenges people WITH RESPECT to those abilities? Taking them away is a lazy, cheap tactic and shows a lack of creativity. There are many great ideas right here in the forums, from people who have no idea how to make a game that is better than introducing mobs of enemies that wipe away what makes Warframe... Warframe. Surely, DE can come up with a better way than to melt away all the fun with this cavalcade of fun blockers.

EDIT: I'd like some of you to take a look at this. THIS is what attracts people to Warframe. This trailer (and there are a lot of different press releases like this) is made by DE to market the game. it isn't people running around with no abilities and no weapons - they showcase those abilities and weapons like a badge of honor here. You don't attract people to a game by showing them these features and then after you get them hooked, wipe them away.

Now where in there does it discourage players from using abilities and weapons - because I cant find it. Seems like quite liberal usage to me...

Edited March 28, 2016 by magusat999
added information

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

5 hours ago, Maicael said:

The back and forth isn't really going anywhere, so how about a compromise?

Nullifiers get moved to non-endless missions as an uncommon spawn, similar to Grineer Commanders, and perhaps even limited to a specific planet (like Guardsman or Manic Bombard) where whatever Corpus boss it is has a research/production facility that they're using to create these shield projection units. (Maybe using the same idea behind Tyl Regor is too repetitive though.)

In return, Comba/Scrambus get changed to be immune to all powers themselves regardless of distance cast from (still only capable of nullifying their specific power set when in range). This would prevent being able to disable these specific units.

Nullifiers should simply be changed. It's bad design. Regardless of how many and where they spawn. 

And combas and scrambas, even though you can blind, disarm,  m prime them you can remove their ability until you shoot the head or blow them up. So they are fine.

[Decembrist.exe]

This thread again...

Been lurking on the forums for a long time and its absolutely hilarious how people want to remove enemies that force them to retreat instead of constantly ravaging the battlefield, with their Tonkors and abilitiy spams.

Nulifiers serve a good purpose and DE knows it.  Which is why they are still in the game. 

At high level, they force you to think twice, they force you to evaluate routes and options and they force you to take risks. Why would you want to remove that?

I'll tell you why. Because you are a kind of player that hates a challenge.


 

[Xzorn]

4 hours ago, JinxedWolf said:

This thread again...

Been lurking on the forums for a long time and its absolutely hilarious how people want to remove enemies that force them to retreat instead of constantly ravaging the battlefield, with their Tonkors and abilitiy spams.

Nulifiers serve a good purpose and DE knows it.  Which is why they are still in the game. 

At high level, they force you to think twice, they force you to evaluate routes and options and they force you to take risks. Why would you want to remove that?

I'll tell you why. Because you are a kind of player that hates a challenge.


 

 

They're in the game and have increased in spawn rate since U18 to hinder and create unfair circumstances for inexperienced players. They do not present a challenge in any way for those who know how to deal with them. How do you deal with them? Well it's simple, very simple in fact. You play as derpy as possible.

They do not force me to think twice, evaluate routes or options, they simply take away options just like many things added in the past. I do not hate a challenge, but this game does not reward you for playing against that challenge, it rewards you for finding to path of least resistance.

There will always be cheese. They can go back and edit 15 or so frames and even more mods/weapons, or they can fix this enemy to at least allow more options of play. Which would you take?

I'm sure DE thought Shock Eximus served a purpose as well, which is why they came back for round two, yet they're now changed. People make mistakes, it's up to the community to bring unforeseen problems to light.

 

 

[Maicael]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Nullifiers should simply be changed. It's bad design. Regardless of how many and where they spawn. 

And combas and scrambas, even though you can blind, disarm,  m prime them you can remove their ability until you shoot the head or blow them up. So they are fine.

So you want even the units that are supposed be able to nullify powers to only be able to do that in the one specific instance where they get too close to you? No, might as well just treat them like every other Crewman. In my opinion, they should not only be immune to all powers themselves, but also protect enemies around them by their specific power set. If you don't like your power being blocked, then do something about it and kill them or shoot their helmet off. They don't have a bubble for you to bring down.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Maicael
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