Low MR in Sorties

[OverlordMcGeek]

8 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

I'd prefer a minimum Conclave rating for Sorties, really.

The problem I run into for public Sorties (or other high-level missions like the April Fool's alert) is that low-MR players tend to have frames with unhelpful Auras for that content level (such as Speed Holster or Ammo Scavenger), usually don't have the toughness of a high-rank Steel Fibre and/or Vitality and/or Redirection, and often lack weapons powerful enough to deliver significant damage to the enemy due to them having low-ranked Serration/Hornet Strike mods equipped and no or limited Reactors and Catalysts on their equipment.

And that's if you can convince them to stay with the group and they're using their abilities sensibly. I ran into the perfect storm of players with under-levelled equipment, low MR, and who ignored suggestions to stay together in favour of running as far away from me as possible to try and get their own kills, constantly getting downed and eventually becoming abusive because it took too long to reach them and enemies were swarming too heavily to revive safely.

Conclave Rating has its faults but I'd be a lot more confident in a player with a Conclave rating in excess of 1,000 for their loadout in any Sortie mission than I would be for most players I see at Mastery Ranks 4-13 or so.

And with people that will argue against conclave do keep in mind, even if they did buy and cheeze through trading they can at least dish out damage and not die like other low conclavers.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I hear ya.. but as usual, the solution is to Solo if you can, or call for experienced players via Recruit Chat. I suppose an MR8 restriction is fair (can't even go to some relays till then), but what would it really solve? the skilled players who don't bother with MR rank will be shut out and the unskilled High MR players expecting a free ride will still be prevalent.

there is no such thing as a Flawless Sortie System, so we'll just have to make do until one with minimal Flaws comes along.

[[DE]Momaw]

2 hours ago, Prime said:

going with what @OverlordMcGeek wrote, I think sorties should be unlocked when you have access to every planet. This takes more time than being carried through an invasion once. 

Or more elegantly within the game's structure, you cannot run any sortie mission where you have not unlocked the base mission node for it. Doesn't matter if you get invited or not, you simply can't get in without the mission node.

 

1 hour ago, WrathAscending said:

I'd prefer a minimum Conclave rating for Sorties, really.

Conclave ratings mean even less than mastery rank. The actual power of different mods isn't reflected in their score and nobody has even tried to maintain that in years. This was the reason conclave score stopped being used for tactical alerts.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Momaw

[MagPrime]

I agree that Sorties should require a higher MR, at least for Public settings.  I think MR8 is reasonable, since that means that most players have spent more than a week playing. (I haven't met a MR8 that had only 8 days of play time, generally they have at least a month under their belt) Since we have hit MR 21 now, I honestly don't see the issue behind a MR10 lock, either.  But again, this is only for Public Sorties. 

Playing a Sortie on Friends/Invite Only, I think the lock should remain at MR4.  This would prevent at least two people being forced into a Carry role.  

As to the argument that people have met low MR players that play better than high MR; that's actually a pretty small group from what I've seen and experienced.  It's either someone that's alting, for reasons, or it's a skilled player that read up on the game and watched YouTube before getting too far  in.  

I don't believe that there are enough of the above players to justify low MR locks at this point. 

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Noamuth

[(PSN)Cwellann]

13 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

As to the argument that people have met low MR players that play better than high MR; that's actually a pretty small group from what I've seen and experienced.

This.  We can all cherry pick examples all day of bad high MR players and good low MR players, but there is a general trend.  That being said, I think MR, if it were to be a restriction, should be either 6 or 12 (because syndicate weapons - 8's just the Dragon Nikana, which is nice, but isn't a really major gear milestone anymore).  I like the idea of clearing the starchart much better though, for the same reason that if (and that's a big if) I ever put a MR restriction in when I recruit, it's always 13.  Clearing the starchart and MR13 have one really big thing in common - you've done more than you had to to get what you wanted, and therefore can, generally, be judged to have gotten some experience  purely from trying things out.

Spoiler

I'll admit being a bit biased at the moment - just failed the last sortie today with the map red on the last wave.  The MR21 Mirage didn't use blind once, and was spamming Simulor shots on an elemental resistance defense sortie, and the MR4 had... 1 kill.  And was apparently hiding in a corner.  In case anyone cares, I was on Ash.

 

[DuskLegendary]

Well, while MR doesn't indicate a player's skill, how many mods they have maxed, or what builds they're currently running, I do think that an MR lock on Sorties would probably help... I mean come on, MR5 and under people trying to do level 80-100 content in most cases aren't likely to have anything suited for end game content, let alone being ready for a Sortie. In fact, in my opinion, the only thing an MR6 could use that would be good enough for a Sortie would be the Tonkor weapon wise, while a host of frames would be good enough.

But with that being said, MR means nothing. At MR7, I had already maxed two Primed mods, as well as about 9 or 10 R10 mods with some very serious core grinding. At that MR, it's very unlikely that you would have anything of the sort maxed out, but I opted for clearing the Star Chart and core grinding over actually ranking up my MR. Now I'm MR12 with even more junk maxed out and I do quite well for myself. Point of the long, drawn out story? The only thing MR gives you is access to better weapons, but at the end of the day, it's your mods that will save you. Low MR players can be useful, they just need the mods and correct builds/frames.

Edited April 3, 2016 by DuskLegendary

[DxAdder]

It's not the players MR that matters it's there Gear.

If there NOT bringing froma'd frames and gear there being carried.

 

[Rawbeard]

I am MR21, so I am fine with that being the minimum requirement.

[Rakosta_Kai]

48 minutes ago, DxAdder said:

It's not the players MR that matters it's there Gear.

If there NOT bringing froma'd frames and gear there being carried.

 

That's an interesting notion...

I wonder what it would look like to have MR broken out as usual but have the number of formas used on gear denoting a rank inside the mastery Rank (bronze, silver, etc perhaps).

Would probably more informative for all parties.

...Would still be a bit elitist, but the game seems to be trending in that direction anyway.  

[DeadlyPeanutt]

4 hours ago, WizMandem94 said:

With draco in the game mastery rank doesn't matter that much.

MR has never mattered that much.  

High MR simply means the player is a mile wide and an inch thick.  the metric doesn't measure mastery at all.   A player who has 3 frames and a few weapons that he/she has completely mastered is likely to be a low MR.  a player who has leveled up and discarded every weapon/frame in the game and knows how to use none of them is likely to be an MR21.

To paraphrase Bruce Lee; fear not the man who practices a thousand kicks, fear the man who practices one kick a thousand times. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[Rakosta_Kai]

7 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

MR has never mattered that much.  

High MR simply means the player is a mile wide and an inch thick.  the metric doesn't measure mastery at all.   A player who has 3 frames and a few weapons that he/she has completely mastered is likely to be a low MR.  a player who has leveled up and discarded every weapon/frame in the game and knows how to use none of them is likely to be an MR21.

To paraphrase Bruce Lee; fear not the man who practices a thousand kicks, fear the man who practices one kick a thousand times. 

Very True.

That's why I think DXAdder's idea is so interesting.

It stands to reason that a player who only uses a select amount of gear probably has it forma'd to be able to take almost anything they can put in it. 

[(PSN)Gangalito]

Whatever anyone thinks, MR does indeed matter (I'm MR21 btw).  Can you still be a bad player at MR 21?  Yeah, sure.  But, a Tenno's ability to make their gear powerful is attached to the quality of their mods.  Ranking up mods, and even getting the more powerful, more rare mods, are all things that you naturally do as you gain MR.  To get some of the gear you need to be able to complete the missions.  Try doing a T4 Def with completely unranked mods and see how well you do.  MR isn't a hard rule where "At MR12 you have x amount of power", it's more an estimation.  MR5 is waaay too low of an estimation.  MR8 IMO is even a little on the low side, but I consistently see MR8's with at least moderate performance, while MR5's ALWAYS need carried.

Edited April 3, 2016 by (PS4)Gangalito

[Blazer-X]

MR is, IMO, far too inconsistent as a measuring tool. Because, yes, someone who just modded the hell out of Prime weapons could easily be MR rank 2-3. Also, remember that the god weapon known as Tonkor is only MR 5.

Personally, I wouldn't mind implementing requiring at least 1 rank 30 weapon. We already have rank 30 frames as a requirement. I could understand bringing a garbage secondary and melee if you fully intend to clear house with an awesome maxed out primary (or vice versa), but I think having at least one consistent weapon should be a requirement.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

5 hours ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

 

These two go hand in hand.  If you aren't expecting to be able to carry a mission, or don't feel like carrying it, don't PuG it. 

Edit : Additionally, as others have pointed out since, MR isn't indicative of ability.

Ability is less important than gear in WF, and Gear is gated by MR so MR does matter.

[(PSN)Gangalito]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Ability is less important than gear in WF...

I don't entirely agree with this.  Yes, gear is very important in WF as it is in any game, but if you don't know how to use what you have, or know how to parkour, or any of the other skill based things in the game, you simply won't be very effective.  Sure, you can kill things with a high damage weapon, but if you can't aim, or keep yourself alive long enough to pull the trigger, or most importantly, complete whatever the current mission objective is, then you're gear doesn't mean anything.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)Gangalito said:

I don't entirely agree with this.  Yes, gear is very important in WF as it is in any game, but if you don't know how to use what you have, or know how to parkour, or any of the other skill based things in the game, you simply won't be very effective.  Sure, you can kill things with a high damage weapon, but if you can't aim, or keep yourself alive long enough to pull the trigger, or most importantly, complete whatever the current mission objective is, then you're gear doesn't mean anything.

That's not the point. Even the most skilled player isn't going to be able to anything with a MK1 Braton and broken mods; that's the point.

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

That's not the point. Even the most skilled player isn't going to be able to anything with a MK1 Braton and broken mods; that's the point.

You're gonna have to prove that.

[akira_him]

Maybe we should just don't show MR but show hours played instead

Edited April 3, 2016 by akira_him
typo

[(PSN)horridhal]

1 hour ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Ability is less important than gear in WF, and Gear is gated by MR so MR does matter.

The two go hand in hand.  The less skill you have, the more you are going to need to rely on your weapons.  MR is not a gauge of anything other than the amount of equipment you are willing to level, and I say that from the perspective of a player with a high mastery rank.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

That's not the point. Even the most skilled player isn't going to be able to anything with a MK1 Braton and broken mods; that's the point.

You are incorrect here.  Good players can overcome difficult challenges and this loadout can be used successfully.  Granted it isn't going to take you as long as a fully modded higher tier weapon, but it can get you somewhere in the 30 minute range of a T4.  This is also not the likely setup of any player actually running sorties.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, (PS4)horridhal said:

The two go hand in hand.  The less skill you have, the more you are going to need to rely on your weapons.  MR is not a gauge of anything other than the amount of equipment you are willing to level, and I say that from the perspective of a player with a high mastery rank.

You are incorrect here.  Good players can overcome difficult challenges and this loadout can be used successfully.  Granted it isn't going to take you as long as a fully modded higher tier weapon, but it can get you somewhere in the 30 minute range of a T4.  This is also not the likely setup of any player actually running sorties.

Show me someone soloing a sortie with unmodded Excalibur and starter weapons.

[(PSN)horridhal]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Show me someone soloing a sortie with unmodded Excalibur and starter weapons.

Again, that isn't the likely equipment of a player running a sortie.  You are pretending that every low MR player you get matched with publicly is running a frame with no/broken mods, which isn't the case, and is only equipped with started gear which, again, isn't the case.

As for your request, I can show you me running it with a modded Excal and some modded Mk1 weapons, feel free to shoot me a message on PSN and I'll walk you through it.

Edited April 3, 2016 by (PS4)horridhal

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, (PS4)horridhal said:

Again, that isn't the likely equipment of a player running a sortie.  You are pretending that every low MR player you get matched with publicly is running a frame with no/broken mods, which isn't the case, and is only equipped with started gear which, again, isn't the case.

As for your request, I can show you me running it with a modded Excal and some modded Mk1 weapons, feel free to shoot me a message on PSN and I'll walk you through it.

Literally doesn't matter. I made it an extreme example on purpose to illustrate the point.

[(PSN)horridhal]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Literally doesn't matter. I made it an extreme example on purpose to illustrate the point.

You made an extreme in order to validate an argument that isn't actually valid.  Let's call a spade a spade, shall we?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, (PS4)horridhal said:

You made an extreme in order to validate an argument that isn't actually valid.  Let's call a spade a spade, shall we?

The argument is completely valid. The most useful gear is MR gated, and people with low MR are less likely to have the best mods either, at least no maxed out. Even the most skill player with the worst gear won't be able to out perform a mediocre player with a maxed out tonkor.

That is the point, and Spades are pointed by the way. :)

[(PSN)horridhal]

Just now, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

The argument is completely valid. The most useful gear is MR gated, and people with low MR are less likely to have the best mods either, at least no maxed out. Even the most skill player with the worst gear won't be able to out perform a mediocre player with a maxed out tonkor.

That is the point, and Spades are pointed by the way. :)

No, it isn't valid.  Especially considering that many of the MR required end-game items are simply Prime items that are locked at a low Mastery level.  The Soma Prime, for example, is an end-game gun requiring relatively few mods that are commonly found and can be obtained and used at MR 6.  

Mods are a completely different topic since they aren't actually relevant to MR and a low MR ranked player could, theoretically, actually have all the mods in the game and you'd never know.  That said, the cornerstone mods are extremely common and easy to come by and the vast majority of the playerbase has them.  Especially at MR 4-6.

Depends on what you mean by outperform.  Outdamage?  Obviously not due to inherent differences in the guns base stats.  That said, damage is a VERY small portion of contribution to a squad and anyone running an Ash and spamming Bladestorm can top the damage charts.  That is, again, not indicative of skill and I'd rather have someone who I don't have to worry about going down as opposed to someone completely focused on dealing damage.

Feel free to show where I ever said they weren't?