Heavy Trinity (and other stuff) Nerf : Don't Worry, I have L10 Flame Repellent On

[Marthrym]

This doesn't solve the real issue : broken enemy scaling, CC abilities and our weapons' damage output being just as broken for a good part. Fix that first, THEN we can talk about balancing the rest of the game around it. Always start with the core of the issue, NEVER with something that revolves around it. Balancing 101. You won't fix anything by changing Trinity. Make her stronger, weaker, whatever, the game won't be any different for anyone that doesn't play her. And for those who do, it'll be worse because the rest of the game will be just as broken as before and she will be too weak to be competitive or just make the devs do something dumb like removing even more gameplay options from our hands or creating even more overpowered mechanics to provide the AI with. Skill and experience are so largely irrelevant in this game that only stats and how you can one-up an overpowered thing with another overpowered thing is the one true meta.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

On Freitag, 29. April 2016 at 6:02 PM, jjpdn said:

Seeing as this is a PvE game, balance problems aren't really problems. So, DE instead spends much more time spewing out new content than balancing things, as shown by the update notes. If the Conclave team had to buff or nerf at least three different weapons every update/hotfix, how come there has been nothing for PvE balance since ever? I'm guessing that the way stuff are now gives players a sense of empowerment, which is why Warframe is so popular. I guess balance is not the way to do things.

quoted for sad truth. yes, the feeling of empowerment is drawing players in, hunter-gatherer instincts do the rest... FOR A WHILE, as you so felicitously desrcibed in your inital post... warframe keeps branching out further and further while its roots are withering away... core gameplay is more and more becoming a cheesy mess and trin certainly plays a key role. sometimes i wonder why they even bother designing events like the current one, creating elaborate AIs, basing encounters around limited energy amongst other things... then some trin and ash/valk join your squad and it's just like the rest of the game: E,E,E,... 4,4,4 ... get stuff, rinse and repeat.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[WARLOCKE]

2 hours ago, Sakatchi said:

You do realize that you can balance trinity without actually nerfing her right. Its an amazing concept I know, but bear with me. I'm about to blow your mind.

Its not even hard, or requires a book to explain. She just seems overpowered because there is no other frames that can compete with her directly at the moment.

So for the sake of argument, say we buff Oberon to be just as good. Now you have a choice between lobster butt, or goat paladin.

There are now choices happening here, and different considerations to be made.

Do you need energy renewal, or do you need healing mist that also damages? Are you going for a long haul? or Are you doing a defense mission?

You now have balanced the trinity, without even touching her skills.

No, she is flat out broken. No frame needs to be buffed to her level. Kick the crutch.

[WARLOCKE]

1 hour ago, Marthrym said:

This doesn't solve the real issue : broken enemy scaling, CC abilities and our weapons' damage output being just as broken for a good part. Fix that first, THEN we can talk about balancing the rest of the game around it. Always start with the core of the issue, NEVER with something that revolves around it. Balancing 101. You won't fix anything by changing Trinity. Make her stronger, weaker, whatever, the game won't be any different for anyone that doesn't play her. And for those who do, it'll be worse because the rest of the game will be just as broken as before and she will be too weak to be competitive or just make the devs do something dumb like removing even more gameplay options from our hands or creating even more overpowered mechanics to provide the AI with. Skill and experience are so largely irrelevant in this game that only stats and how you can one-up an overpowered thing with another overpowered thing is the one true meta.

Doesnt work that way. You need a baseline of what players can do before balancing. You cant do that with a broken frame throwing that baseline WAY out of whack. 

[WARLOCKE]

21 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

quoted for sad truth. yes, the feeling of empowerment is drawing players in, hunter-gatherer instincts do the rest... FOR A WHILE, as you so felicitousy desrcibed in your inital post... warframe keeps branching out further and further while its roots are withering away... core gameplay is more and more becoming a cheesy mess and trin certainly plays a key role. sometimes i wonder why they even bother designing events like the current one, creating elaborate AIs, basing encounters around limited energy amongst other things... then some trin and ash/valk join your squad and it's just like the rest of the game: E,E,E,... 4,4,4 ... get stuff, rinse and repeat.

And that is why Trinity wont be getting fixed and well see more and more nullifiers and energy restrictions causing the game to become a thrid person call of duty.

[Marthrym]

3 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

Doesnt work that way. You need a baseline of what players can do before balancing. You cant do that with a broken frame throwing that baseline WAY out of whack. 

Works EXACTLY that way, and not other. "Balance" your frame as much as you want, as long as the core is broken, your frame is too. You don't build something without having a solid base to build upon. You can use the strongest, most flexible and reliable materials, as long as the ground on which you build is not strong enough itself, you're screwed. Doing things differently calls for failure every time. Changing Trinity, no matter how you change her, won't solve the real issue : this game has no balance, no fair challenge. It's an all or nothing. Either we fully control the battlefield and enemies are utterly defenseless no matter their level, or they are outright immune to everything we can throw at them and scaling makes them overpowered in turn. That's why playing with Trinity's kit won't do a damn thing to make the game better. It'll just alienate her to some players because they're either to lazy or too burned out to "relearn" how to play her (or simply don't like her anymore), deprive all of us of some much needed counters to Warframe's utterly imbalanced core (unfortunately that means cheese, yes, I know it sucks, but hey, I'll take it considering the situation), and overall make the experience of the game worse than it will make it better for a majority of players, newbies and vets alike.

[shootaman777]

8 hours ago, Sakatchi said:

Holy crap dude. Its cool you quoted me, and threw my arguments around, +1 for that. But I really doubt someone that wants to argue is going to read that book you wrote.

Your awesomely worded points and counter points are probably gonna go in one eye and out the other due to how dense that text is.

Its kinda why I started condensing my posts, so there'd be a chance he'd actually read what I typed at him.

The thing is, after reading at least that much, if not more, from jjpdn, and responding to it, I'd expect that he'd do the same.  It would only be courteous, after all, to respond to someone on a thread that one creates that offers an argument.  Also, the problem as I see it is that it appears that jjpdn is not actually dealing with the arguments of the people in this thread; rather, jjpdn is simply saying 'your argument does not matter, since I find this to be 'overpowered''.  I would like to see jjpdn's response to my argument, and then if he responds along the lines of more of the same, I can at least call him out for it, since I understand my argument (I think xD) enough to argue about even the downsides of it.  Also, I had a great time reading your argument on this thread, since I also used to be a COD player and left the COD community for that reason (with the exception of COD zombies other than exo zombies, which was meh at best), and I would hate to see this game become COD as I would most likely leave it behind if it did.  Also, the thing is, most of my post is just an explanation of my argument, and the short and summarized version of this argument is in the last three paragraphs of it, what with the summarization, what to take away, and the anecdotal example.  Thanks for the response btw, I'm so new to this WF forums thing that a week ago, I didn't know what this was xD 

Oh, and btw, your post from earlier has 10 upvotes, not 7.  

Edited May 7, 2016 by shootaman777
Just an addition at the end

[kleerr2]

1 hour ago, Marthrym said:

Works EXACTLY that way, and not other. "Balance" your frame as much as you want, as long as the core is broken, your frame is too. You don't build something without having a solid base to build upon. You can use the strongest, most flexible and reliable materials, as long as the ground on which you build is not strong enough itself, you're screwed. Doing things differently calls for failure every time. Changing Trinity, no matter how you change her, won't solve the real issue : this game has no balance, no fair challenge. It's an all or nothing. Either we fully control the battlefield and enemies are utterly defenseless no matter their level, or they are outright immune to everything we can throw at them and scaling makes them overpowered in turn. That's why playing with Trinity's kit won't do a damn thing to make the game better. It'll just alienate her to some players because they're either to lazy or too burned out to "relearn" how to play her (or simply don't like her anymore), deprive all of us of some much needed counters to Warframe's utterly imbalanced core (unfortunately that means cheese, yes, I know it sucks, but hey, I'll take it considering the situation), and overall make the experience of the game worse than it will make it better for a majority of players, newbies and vets alike.

Preach it brother! When will these people realise that even if DE were to Delete Trinity compleatly, right now, none of their problems that led to the making of this thread will be solved...

Right now, i can bet you that, if you ask those people requesting balance: ''What should we balance the whole game around'', pretty much none of them will have any idea what factor to balane around, or how to actually go about to make it happen, nor the consequences of screwing it up, as there are so many factors to consider...

And you know what is the worst part? None of ''those'' people can tell you, where exactly they are going to draw the line, in their ''balance'' crusade... How far are we going to go with limiting and removing? What kind of game are we trying to turn this game into? How much time and effort is it all going to actually take? Is the new product going to appeal to the current playerbase? etc. etc. etc... There are so many things to consider, but NO, lets just nerf energy aquisition into oblivion! Why? Because f*ck logic, and f*ck you too, thats why!!!

Atleast when you nerf a frame, the worst thing that could happen is, people would lose interest, and stop playing the frame... but actually limiting energy aquisition as a whole, which is a very important variable of the game's core, and we are going to do that carelessly?!

[WARLOCKE]

3 hours ago, Marthrym said:

Works EXACTLY that way, and not other. "Balance" your frame as much as you want, as long as the core is broken, your frame is too. You don't build something without having a solid base to build upon. You can use the strongest, most flexible and reliable materials, as long as the ground on which you build is not strong enough itself, you're screwed. Doing things differently calls for failure every time. Changing Trinity, no matter how you change her, won't solve the real issue : this game has no balance, no fair challenge. It's an all or nothing. Either we fully control the battlefield and enemies are utterly defenseless no matter their level, or they are outright immune to everything we can throw at them and scaling makes them overpowered in turn. That's why playing with Trinity's kit won't do a damn thing to make the game better. It'll just alienate her to some players because they're either to lazy or too burned out to "relearn" how to play her (or simply don't like her anymore), deprive all of us of some much needed counters to Warframe's utterly imbalanced core (unfortunately that means cheese, yes, I know it sucks, but hey, I'll take it considering the situation), and overall make the experience of the game worse than it will make it better for a majority of players, newbies and vets alike.

Im sorry, I dont see it that way. To me, the base of the game is the warframes themselves. The balance comes in as to how they interact with the game world. Which comes first? At this point im not sure. But I guess I could agree to that they are of equal importance.

[WARLOCKE]

1 hour ago, kleerr2 said:

Preach it brother! When will these people realise that even if DE were to Delete Trinity compleatly, right now, none of their problems that led to the making of this thread will be solved...

Right now, i can bet you that, if you ask those people requesting balance: ''What should we balance the whole game around'', pretty much none of them will have any idea what factor to balane around, or how to actually go about to make it happen, nor the consequences of screwing it up, as there are so many factors to consider...

And you know what is the worst part? None of ''those'' people can tell you, where exactly they are going to draw the line, in their ''balance'' crusade... How far are we going to go with limiting and removing? What kind of game are we trying to turn this game into? How much time and effort is it all going to actually take? Is the new product going to appeal to the current playerbase? etc. etc. etc... There are so many things to consider, but NO, lets just nerf energy aquisition into oblivion! Why? Because f*ck logic, and f*ck you too, thats why!!!

Atleast when you nerf a frame, the worst thing that could happen is, people would lose interest, and stop playing the frame... but actually limiting energy aquisition as a whole, which is a very important variable of the game's core, and we are going to do that carelessly?!

Here is where the line is drawn. No invulnerable frames. No energy batteries. Blessing capped at 50% reduction and gains range. CC less effective the more targets controlled and heavy units blanket duration decrease. Stealth detection units for all factions (with limited spawning). Focus rework. Armor scaling adressed. Removal of power disruption enemies and less severe energy restrictions on special conditions. AoE damage cap. 

Its a longish list. But untill it all happens youll have the warframe we have today. Which isnt super bad mind you, heck I play it all the time. But I dont pretend it is close to balanced and you shouldnt either. Its not a "crusade" its more of a kicking the crutch out from under you. You will adapt. Trust me.

[-Temp0-]

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

Here is where the line is drawn. No invulnerable frames. No energy batteries.

How about, start with "no invulnerable bosses"? Razorback? Kela? Hm? No things that drain your energy like leeches, shock proc and bombs in LoR, especially nightmare? How about no damage trucks like bombards and heavy gunners and especially corpus high lvl nulls that can one shot you with 2000 overshileds and full vitality?

As long as at least any of this bs exists in a game, there will be something that will be able to destroy those conditions and overcome them.

[kleerr2]

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

No invulnerable frames. No energy batteries. Blessing capped at 50% reduction and gains range. CC less effective the more targets controlled and heavy units blanket duration decrease. Stealth detection units for all factions (with limited spawning). Focus rework. Armor scaling adressed. Removal of power disruption enemies and less severe energy restrictions on special conditions. AoE damage cap.

''No invulnerable frames'' - So how is this going to go about? Are you going to make it just dmg reduction, how much %? Variable...

''No energy batteries'' - So much for those mofos, but the more we are limiting energy acquisition sources, the more ''shooter'' this game becomes, not to mention its possible effects on difficulty and whatnot, anyway...

''Blessing capped at 50% reduction and gains range'' - By capped by 50% im guessing you mean its DR, which will be affecting overall difficulty. And Blessing is going to become a ranged ability, but how much range is it going to have, so that it aligns with the rest of the puzzle, so that its balanced out? Variable...

''CC less effective the more targets controlled'' - How much less effective, based on how much targets controlled, so it is balanced and etc. etc. etc.  Variables...

''heavy units blanket duration decrease'' - I dont really understand what you mean by that...

''Stealth detection units for all factions (with limited spawning)'' - What are those units going to be like, like, grunts, or assassins, or elites, and how much limited spawning? So balance etc. etc etc.  Variables...

''Focus rework'' - Focus rework how? Are we giving, are we taking, are we limiting? Variable...

''Armor scaling adressed'' - Adressed how exactly? Is there going to be a specific top lvl, or something, or how? Im not going to bother writing ''balance...'' again ok? Variable...

''Removal of power disruption enemies'' - So much f*ck those mofos... But are not ''detection'' units also disruptors?? And the concept of disruption units is not something this game can afford to lose, not only because of the sheer diversity that is possible, but because it is actually a very interesting as well as balancing concept...

''less severe energy restrictions on special conditions'' - How much less severe, and on what special conditions? Variables...

''AoE damage cap'' - How much?? Variable...

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

Here is where the line is drawn.

As you can see, this ''line'' is full, if not riddled, with variable factors, which are connected, thus have to be adjusted correspondingly, in a manner that produces a balanced gameplay enviroment, which is difficult as f*ck to pull off, am i right?? And then there is the actual removal of factors aswell in: ''the line'' that was drawn...

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

Its a longish list. But untill it all happens youll have the warframe we have today. Which isnt super bad mind you, heck I play it all the time. But I dont pretend it is close to balanced and you shouldnt either. Its not a "crusade" its more of a kicking the crutch out from under you. You will adapt. Trust me.

You know, it realy IS a longish list... a long list which consists of variable factors, and guess what... If you put Trinity into the perespective with all of those variables... By some unidentified source of black magic, Trinity, is the sole reason all of those variables are not balanced... Yeah, you heard it here folks, it is all Trinity the frame's fault, ''But why is that?'' you ask yourself?! That dear reader is simply because ''Trinity is breaking the game''. So you have better belive it!!!

But in all seriousness tho, i dont want you to list me a summary of all of those variables, or anything, because you probably dont have that kind of time to write it up, or the effort, and honestly i myself, won't have the time and effort, to just read it, either... All im saying is that... Please guys, dont bother talking about ''game balance'' or its core parts, because it is a total waste of time, as you are not capable of figuring out the balanced point of the end product(or atleast in this topic...), and you should not, since you are not DE... And ffs dont say ''Trinity is breaking the game'', because that is just a huge pile of sh*t, and we all know it...

Sorry for going off topic, altho this topic turned into energy aquisition in general... but whatever...

[Sakatchi]

6 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

The thing is, after reading at least that much, if not more, from jjpdn, and responding to it, I'd expect that he'd do the same.  It would only be courteous, after all, to respond to someone on a thread that one creates that offers an argument.  Also, the problem as I see it is that it appears that jjpdn is not actually dealing with the arguments of the people in this thread; rather, jjpdn is simply saying 'your argument does not matter, since I find this to be 'overpowered''.  I would like to see jjpdn's response to my argument, and then if he responds along the lines of more of the same, I can at least call him out for it, since I understand my argument (I think xD) enough to argue about even the downsides of it.  Also, I had a great time reading your argument on this thread, since I also used to be a COD player and left the COD community for that reason (with the exception of COD zombies other than exo zombies, which was meh at best), and I would hate to see this game become COD as I would most likely leave it behind if it did.  Also, the thing is, most of my post is just an explanation of my argument, and the short and summarized version of this argument is in the last three paragraphs of it, what with the summarization, what to take away, and the anecdotal example.  Thanks for the response btw, I'm so new to this WF forums thing that a week ago, I didn't know what this was xD 

Oh, and btw, your post from earlier has 10 upvotes, not 7.  

Lol welcome to the forums then, you'll see a ton of threads like these on a full range of topics.

10 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

No, she is flat out broken. No frame needs to be buffed to her level. Kick the crutch.

Not going to even bother to try to use logic eh. Your personal opinions aren't really facts you know, nor do you get to dictate whats balanced and whats not using opinions as your reference.

[WARLOCKE]

2 hours ago, Sakatchi said:

Lol welcome to the forums then, you'll see a ton of threads like these on a full range of topics.

Not going to even bother to try to use logic eh. Your personal opinions aren't really facts you know, nor do you get to dictate whats balanced and whats not using opinions as your reference.

I dont need to explain myself twice. Perhaps you should read.

[WARLOCKE]

3 hours ago, kleerr2 said:

''No invulnerable frames'' - So how is this going to go about? Are you going to make it just dmg reduction, how much %? Variable...

''No energy batteries'' - So much for those mofos, but the more we are limiting energy acquisition sources, the more ''shooter'' this game becomes, not to mention its possible effects on difficulty and whatnot, anyway...

''Blessing capped at 50% reduction and gains range'' - By capped by 50% im guessing you mean its DR, which will be affecting overall difficulty. And Blessing is going to become a ranged ability, but how much range is it going to have, so that it aligns with the rest of the puzzle, so that its balanced out? Variable...

''CC less effective the more targets controlled'' - How much less effective, based on how much targets controlled, so it is balanced and etc. etc. etc.  Variables...

''heavy units blanket duration decrease'' - I dont really understand what you mean by that...

''Stealth detection units for all factions (with limited spawning)'' - What are those units going to be like, like, grunts, or assassins, or elites, and how much limited spawning? So balance etc. etc etc.  Variables...

''Focus rework'' - Focus rework how? Are we giving, are we taking, are we limiting? Variable...

''Armor scaling adressed'' - Adressed how exactly? Is there going to be a specific top lvl, or something, or how? Im not going to bother writing ''balance...'' again ok? Variable...

''Removal of power disruption enemies'' - So much f*ck those mofos... But are not ''detection'' units also disruptors?? And the concept of disruption units is not something this game can afford to lose, not only because of the sheer diversity that is possible, but because it is actually a very interesting as well as balancing concept...

''less severe energy restrictions on special conditions'' - How much less severe, and on what special conditions? Variables...

''AoE damage cap'' - How much?? Variable...

As you can see, this ''line'' is full, if not riddled, with variable factors, which are connected, thus have to be adjusted correspondingly, in a manner that produces a balanced gameplay enviroment, which is difficult as f*ck to pull off, am i right?? And then there is the actual removal of factors aswell in: ''the line'' that was drawn...

You know, it realy IS a longish list... a long list which consists of variable factors, and guess what... If you put Trinity into the perespective with all of those variables... By some unidentified source of black magic, Trinity, is the sole reason all of those variables are not balanced... Yeah, you heard it here folks, it is all Trinity the frame's fault, ''But why is that?'' you ask yourself?! That dear reader is simply because ''Trinity is breaking the game''. So you have better belive it!!!

But in all seriousness tho, i dont want you to list me a summary of all of those variables, or anything, because you probably dont have that kind of time to write it up, or the effort, and honestly i myself, won't have the time and effort, to just read it, either... All im saying is that... Please guys, dont bother talking about ''game balance'' or its core parts, because it is a total waste of time, as you are not capable of figuring out the balanced point of the end product(or atleast in this topic...), and you should not, since you are not DE... And ffs dont say ''Trinity is breaking the game'', because that is just a huge pile of sh*t, and we all know it...

Sorry for going off topic, altho this topic turned into energy aquisition in general... but whatever...

Ok, so you are defending trinity being OP because of...variables? Im not understanding you. Of course varibles would be adressed, thats the point of balance. If you want specific answers I dont have time to type out a novel or have the gumption to be a dev. Its not my job. Ive listed what needs to be fixed, its pretty obvious. You and the trin crutch squad can say differently, but its how I and others see things.

Edit : And as I have said before, none of this will happen due to the following reasons. To much work, to much backlash and salt, no money to be made from it. Its pretty obvious how DE operates. New content brings money ( I disagree ) so thats all the gets worked on. You can consider the multi-shot nerf DOA. And its probably because they found out how much work it would be to re-balance all the weapons.

        The warframe we have to today i the warframe we have tomorrow and next year. Possibly even more broken. Probably even more broken. Good thing, as evidenced by a selection of players who post here, that some of you like "easy mode".

Edited May 7, 2016 by WARLOCKE

[Sakatchi]

30 minutes ago, WARLOCKE said:

I dont need to explain myself twice. Perhaps you should read.

I did read your sentence. Why don't you show me the part that isn't an opinion?

[WARLOCKE]

2 hours ago, Sakatchi said:

I did read your sentence. Why don't you show me the part that isn't an opinion?

So lets get this on record. You dont find that either constant energy renewal on such a large and rapid scale has not been a (not the only) leading cause of things like nullifiers and other corpus trickery? You think it is ok for warframes to operate with near full energy at all times? I mean why even have energy at that point. Do you also not find that 90% + damage resistance to an entire group of players regardless of range is not a bit to much? Because these are not opinions my friend. The crutch is real.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, WARLOCKE said:

Do you also not find that 90% + damage resistance to an entire group of players regardless of range is not a bit to much?

Don't you also find the management and sacrificing of a weapon slot for this to achieve makes it actually a not so easy task? That's why you simply never see a bless trin in public play aside from raids (which is recruiting but w/e).

About the energy part, well, i kind of find it a bit unfair that oberon's renewal gets weaker with less duration but trinitys ev gets stronger with less duration (#betternerfoberon). So yeah, a little inconsistency is present, not going to debate that.

[Sakatchi]

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

So lets get this on record. You dont find that either constant energy renewal on such a large and rapid scale has not been a (not the only) leading cause of things like nullifiers and other corpus trickery? You think it is ok for warframes to operate with near full energy at all times? I mean why even have energy at that point. Do you also not find that 90% + damage resistance to an entire group of players regardless of range is not a bit to much? Because these are not opinions my friend. The crutch is real.

You will have it on record that your posts continue to be amazing. Let it also be on record that you seem to think nulifiers exist because trinity has used energy vampire, and you can't seem to comprehend that blessing lasts a whole 10 seconds, which is so un balanced right?

This isn't about me though, you still need to show me some stuff that aren't just opinions. I mean F*** even IceColdHawk is questioning you,and that guy has some pretty strict ideas of balance.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Sakatchi

[kleerr2]

7 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

Ok, so you are defending trinity being OP because of...variables? Im not understanding you.

How can you possibly not understand me sir?? After i wrote this as a response in the thread:

''When will these people realise that even if DE were to Delete Trinity compleatly, right now, none of their problems that led to the making of this thread will be solved...''

This thread has turned from ''Nerf EV into oblivion'' into ''Nerf energy aquisition sources''... Defending Trinity as a whole is no longer the point, since the topic has shifted towards changing a core factor of the game, BUT, if you come out and just start yelling ''Trinity is breaking the game'' don't be surprised to be getting ridiculed...

7 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

Of course varibles would be adressed, thats the point of balance.

That is just it, sir. The point of balance is that, if you mess with just one part of the game's core(and there are so many core factors in this game), alot of others will be affected, because all those game factors are connected like strings, and you cannot compromise one string without figuring out how to balance ALL the other strings along with just this single one you are tempering with, because if you do not... It will make the game even more UNBALANCED! Ok?

7 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

If you want specific answers I dont have time to type out a novel or have the gumption to be a dev. Its not my job. Ive listed what needs to be fixed, its pretty obvious.

No, i do not want specific answers(dear god), I just want you and other people(OP) to STOP trying to wave ''balance'' aroung like a flag, to boast the ''Nerf Trinity'' agenda, that is not the way to go, obviously... And i am writing this up adressed to you, because you seemingly started to argue about that topic...

Ofc it is not, it is not my job either... do you see me making ''Game balance'' threads? No...

You listed some of the main variables(and not even all the main ones), but how exactly are you going to go about changing ALL of them as a whole to create a balanced game enviroment, especially without the comfort of being able to play test results in real time? Can you? I think not... If DE themselves have not ventured there yet, themselves...

As a final plea from me to all of you, who claim ''balance'', which involves game core elements, please, stop...

7 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

You and the trin crutch squad can say differently, but its how I and others see things.

Hey man, view things the way you want, ok. I have no problem with that. But if you start spewing BS nonsense, and start doomtalking, people are going to call you out on that, ok? If you want to make an anti-EV, nerf proposal... atleast make it reasonable(unlike OP)... but you have not made any proposals yet have you? Just spreading the doomtalk, bravo...

7 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

Edit : And as I have said before, none of this will happen due to the following reasons. To much work, to much backlash and salt, no money to be made from it. Its pretty obvious how DE operates. New content brings money ( I disagree ) so thats all the gets worked on. You can consider the multi-shot nerf DOA. And its probably because they found out how much work it would be to re-balance all the weapons.

        The warframe we have to today i the warframe we have tomorrow and next year. Possibly even more broken. Probably even more broken. Good thing, as evidenced by a selection of players who post here, that some of you like "easy mode".

And how is nerfing Trinity going to fix any of that?? When clearly your PERSONAL problem, is not the Trinitty frame, it is GAME BALANCE AS A WHOLE...

Why do i have to repeat myself guys... You would think this is just common sense, but clearly not...

[shootaman777]

14 hours ago, kleerr2 said:

Why do i have to repeat myself guys... You would think this is just common sense, but clearly not...

Because where speech is not censored (AKA as long as it is not hate speech or abuse to devs), people have the right to voice their opinions, and it's a sad day when the people who have opinions worth voicing or that make sense or that have a logical basis for their ideas, speak less than the ones that do not.  The problem is that people believe that they are correct, when they are, in fact, not.  Especially when they say things along the lines of 'it is generally acknowledged that......' or 'a lot of the community as well as myself believes...', or when someone marginalizes you into a group to try to make your opinion invalid, such as by:

 

14 hours ago, kleerr2 said:

You and the trin crutch squad can say differently, but its how I and others see things.

This person (WARLOCKE, I just quoted you quoting WARLOCKE so it says that you said this) is not even acknowledging the other side of the argument; rather, they are putting a negative spin on the other side of the argument with a name like 'trin crutch squad', to make their side seem less negative, or neutral compared to your 'negative' idea, as evidenced by the category you've been placed in.  This is just something people do when they have no logical basis for their arguments - it would even constitute a logical fallacy, insulting the other party to make their point, instead of coming up with reasons to support their point.  

[Cat__Nap]

Your idea revolves around the notion of intentionally getting hit. There is no balancing avoiding damage or taking it when you get past a certain mob level - if squishy frames take damage at all from high level mobs, they die. Banshee? Floor fodder, even against mid-level void mobs. Hence why good banshees don't get hit. Loki? He'll help you get the party energy for maybe 2 seconds before he's dead, if he survives that long from direct fire. Equinox? Bye bye buffs. Making this a requirement for EV to even work? Such a bad idea, I don't even have words. It's only remotely reasonable for tanky frames, which makes it useless with anyone who isn't a tanky frame that can take a few hits.

[WARLOCKE]

On 5/8/2016 at 6:46 PM, IceColdHawk said:

Don't you also find the management and sacrificing of a weapon slot for this to achieve makes it actually a not so easy task? That's why you simply never see a bless trin in public play aside from raids (which is recruiting but w/e).

About the energy part, well, i kind of find it a bit unfair that oberon's renewal gets weaker with less duration but trinitys ev gets stronger with less duration (#betternerfoberon). So yeah, a little inconsistency is present, not going to debate that.

Ive played bless trin many times in public groups. Be it draco or sortie 3 corpus eximus strongholds. It isnt hard. Just boring. Regardless you are not really addressing anything here other than you find it unfair that you have to give up a weapon slot ????? 

[WARLOCKE]

On 5/8/2016 at 7:35 PM, Sakatchi said:

You will have it on record that your posts continue to be amazing. Let it also be on record that you seem to think nulifiers exist because trinity has used energy vampire, and you can't seem to comprehend that blessing lasts a whole 10 seconds, which is so un balanced right?

This isn't about me though, you still need to show me some stuff that aren't just opinions. I mean F*** even IceColdHawk is questioning you,and that guy has some pretty strict ideas of balance.

Why thank you. I take pride at kicking the crutch out from under players. I have no idea who IceColdHawk is nor is it of any relevance. I can comprehend blessing has a duration. And I dont know how to explain the difference between opinion and facts to you, so I will stop trying as it seems I have failed up to this point at that task.

Edited to be less snarky.

Edited May 9, 2016 by WARLOCKE

[WARLOCKE]

20 hours ago, kleerr2 said:

How can you possibly not understand me sir?? After i wrote this as a response in the thread:

''When will these people realise that even if DE were to Delete Trinity compleatly, right now, none of their problems that led to the making of this thread will be solved...''

This thread has turned from ''Nerf EV into oblivion'' into ''Nerf energy aquisition sources''... Defending Trinity as a whole is no longer the point, since the topic has shifted towards changing a core factor of the game, BUT, if you come out and just start yelling ''Trinity is breaking the game'' don't be surprised to be getting ridiculed...

That is just it, sir. The point of balance is that, if you mess with just one part of the game's core(and there are so many core factors in this game), alot of others will be affected, because all those game factors are connected like strings, and you cannot compromise one string without figuring out how to balance ALL the other strings along with just this single one you are tempering with, because if you do not... It will make the game even more UNBALANCED! Ok?

No, i do not want specific answers(dear god), I just want you and other people(OP) to STOP trying to wave ''balance'' aroung like a flag, to boast the ''Nerf Trinity'' agenda, that is not the way to go, obviously... And i am writing this up adressed to you, because you seemingly started to argue about that topic...

Ofc it is not, it is not my job either... do you see me making ''Game balance'' threads? No...

You listed some of the main variables(and not even all the main ones), but how exactly are you going to go about changing ALL of them as a whole to create a balanced game enviroment, especially without the comfort of being able to play test results in real time? Can you? I think not... If DE themselves have not ventured there yet, themselves...

As a final plea from me to all of you, who claim ''balance'', which involves game core elements, please, stop...

Hey man, view things the way you want, ok. I have no problem with that. But if you start spewing BS nonsense, and start doomtalking, people are going to call you out on that, ok? If you want to make an anti-EV, nerf proposal... atleast make it reasonable(unlike OP)... but you have not made any proposals yet have you? Just spreading the doomtalk, bravo...

And how is nerfing Trinity going to fix any of that?? When clearly your PERSONAL problem, is not the Trinitty frame, it is GAME BALANCE AS A WHOLE...

Why do i have to repeat myself guys... You would think this is just common sense, but clearly not...

This will be my last entry into this thread seeing as Ive hit the proverbial Great Wall of Trinity. You are not going to change your mind and I wont either. But I do feel the need to address this post since you did take a bit of time to write it.

Thank you for expressing your ideas further. I still find the crux of them as , im at loss for words here.....incorrect. So because something requires work trin should be left as is? Hogwash. Trin isnt the only problem this game has but she/it IS one of the most visible ones. And the key to many things that would frankly not be possible without her broken skill set. Of course those other problems need to be addressed as well. But guess what sir. You need to start somewhere. And trin is the biggest branch to cut. Balance as a whole has to start somewhere, unless of course you live in a non-linear dimension where there is no beginning or ending. But since im sure you do not, lets just say I (the word I is the qualifier here) would start with the biggest problems first and make my way down the list. Trin is the biggest problem out of all of the warframes because she makes the impossible possible, which I guess means it wasnt impossible in the first place, but I digress.

Now here is something that will tick you right off, and I probably shouldnt post it, but since I detected a bit of nasties in your post I feel obliged. I think you and a few others defend trinity because (and im going to use this word for the 6th time?) you are afraid of losing the crutch she provides. I have a four forma trin and every single mod in the game maxed out to go with it. Im MR 21 (if that means anything other than ive collected and leveled all of the items in the game). And im loathe to bring out Trinity for anything other than a favor to a friend or a guild mate. Because she/it is one of the most broken things ive seen in any video game (well, untrue..but it makes for good drama ), She/it is boring to play and I LOVE playing support in almost any video game. Im the guy who roles healers and actually heal in a MMO. She is broken. Ive explained why. And all ive seen in rebuttal is the above post, which still makes little to no sense to me, and I have explained why above.

Now, while I do not plan on posting again because its frankly a waste of time due to the fact that DE will never nerf her/it (and for all the wrong reasons). I know this, you should know this by now as well. But I also know that it can be disheartening to some to not have the last word in even a light internet verbal spat. So I shall read your rebuttal but dont expect a reply unless im VERY bored. I have said my piece. I cant make it any more clear. Anything further is a just a complete waste of everyones time. In the end, you should feel lucky that your playstyle shall continue for the known future.