What difficulty and fun mean to you?

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Who wants warframe to be dark souls?

Who wants warframe to be ninja gaiden?

Who wants warframe to be a better version of Destiny?

What do you want warframe to be?

I think we all need to just lay out what we want warframe to be like, because name calling and accusations of being nerfers and care bears is just too high, with two opposing fields of people who want the game to go in different directions.

I want warframe to just be warframe. Not any more difficult, and Not any more easy than it was advertised to be, just warframe.

On a side note, I feel like the grineer and corpus are being designed to cater to each group. 

The grineer seem to be for the players who enjoy casual play. 

And the corpus seem to be for the players who want...more.

I'm not sure what the infested are for, just throwing out an opinion, maybe general feedback wasn't the right place, but then, here's some feedback :

I love the game DE, but it's changing, for better or for worse from what it used to be, I know I'm being vague, but, changing the enemies to become more dangerous is great, But... The forums have quieted down with posts about op tenno, now it's the enemies again. Its because there is a thing called overkill, and a lot of these enemies have it. For example, stunning a warframe for prolonged periods of time on the ground surrounded by one shot kill enemies, while maybe player error for thinking melee is viable, is overkill. 

Hyekka masters do not need an ignis, cats and high armor, pick 2 out of 3, you chose to nerf cats, getting rid of armor or ignis would also have been acceptable, but thank you.

1) I will be called out for wanting the game to be easy mode.

2) I do not care.

But if someone says "I do not have a problem with it, so you shouldn't" and that is the entirety of that post, with no other significant or consequential ideas presented... just know that you are beyond a doubt, contributing absolutely nothing to this post, or absolutely any post for that matter. 

Thanks tenno for reading (if you did), have a great day.

 

 

 

[Niliam]

Na, DE just want everybody to play Valkyr, that is all.

 

Let start petition to remove all other frames, and have just Valkyr left to play with, it most likely what DE wants.

[Heatnix.]

5 minutes ago, Niliam said:

Na, DE just want everybody to play Valkyr, that is all.

 

Let start petition to remove all other frames, and have just Valkyr left to play with, it most likely what DE wants.

[HammerofDusk]

2 minutes ago, Niliam said:

Na, DE just want everybody to play Valkyr, that is all.

 

Let start petition to remove all other frames, and have just Valkyr left to play with, it most likely what DE wants.

Fire based Valkyr, water based, sand based, butterfly based, poison based, rings based, ice based, rock based, air based, light show based, pure energy sword based, gunslinger based, healing based, invisible based, ninja based, magnet based, necromancer based, mind control based, bow and arrow based, alternate dimension based, electricity based, anti-matter based, prime based, and finally, umbra based Valkyrs. Let's do it.

[Ziegrif]

I think the entire game should be like the Rathuum event. Even with all the one shot kills.

Yes there's less enemies but they can kick your arse.

More importantly I could actually use Sniper rifles effectively in this event. In other missions there's just too much chaff to use them to full effect.

More importantly I loved the fact that the endless mission was life based and ended the moment you died once.

Sure you can cheese it by having immortal frames but I'd like more of that type of limiting in missions. (and the removal of immortality from frames.)

Edited April 30, 2016 by Ziegrif

[PikeOrShield]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

But if someone says "I do not have a problem with it, so you shouldn't" and that is the entirety of that post, with no other significant or consequential ideas presented... just know that you are beyond a doubt, contributing absolutely nothing to this post, or absolutely any post for that matter. 

"Agree with me or your opinion contributes nothing to this post or any thread ever."  Yeaaaahhhhhh.....

I would be happy if they capped enemy damage at around level 80 or 90 and reworked armor scaling.  It would help solidify what is "endgame" enemy damage (and frame survivability expectations) while still letting enemies scale with health in endless runs. That's about it.  Also, I think the cat ladies are fine unless you in level 120+ content.  I guess I contributed nothing then.

[AdunSaveMe]

I just want the game to require skill more than gear and mods, for all Warframes to be balanced and for enemy design to not be full of things like instakills, invulnerability and unavoidable effects. That's it. No instakills, no infinite scaling, gameplay that actually requires SKILL, and that doesn't actively encourage cheese strats.

But the problem with this is that fixing the issue requires reworks of multiple core systems and enemies, completely changing certain enemy design and modding and doing a balance pass on all abilities and scaling stats. The foundation is broken and anything built on top of it is just as bad, but it's become such a monumental flaw that it can't just be scribbled out in one go.

[Heatnix.]

15 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I just want the game to require skill more than gear and mods, for all Warframes to be balanced and for enemy design to not be full of things like instakills, invulnerability and unavoidable effects. That's it. No instakills, no infinite scaling, gameplay that actually requires SKILL, and that doesn't actively encourage cheese strats.

But the problem with this is that fixing the issue requires reworks of multiple core systems and enemies, completely changing certain enemy design and modding and doing a balance pass on all abilities and scaling stats. The foundation is broken and anything built on top of it is just as bad, but it's become such a monumental flaw that it can't just be scribbled out in one go.

Like enemies that you need to melee first then shoot. Or maybe you have to aim at their floating shield devices first. You may even need to have them hit themselves with their own powers. Maybe you need to bullet jump against them to get them off balance and only die to a finisher.

I was hoping for something like these when they said the sentient would be "unique and bring challenge" but they just made bullet sponges that hit very hard.

[AdunSaveMe]

9 minutes ago, Heatnix. said:

Like enemies that you need to melee first then shoot. Or maybe you have to aim at their floating shield devices first. You may even need to have them hit themselves with their own powers. Maybe you need to bullet jump against them to get them off balance and only die to a finisher.

I was hoping for something like these when they said the sentient would be "unique and bring challenge" but they just made bullet sponges that hit very hard.

Not necessarily "do this one specific thing and this one thing only to beat the enemy". It needs to require skill, but it also needs to be something you can do with other enemies around, and not something so ludicrously specific that you have to do it each time dozens of the enemy spawn in a survival mission.

[(PSN)satsukixpenny]

Right now I see warframe as a dynasty warriors type of system. In that game it is 1 vs 1000. That is basically what you are one warrior vs 1000 (give or take). What made dynasty warriors so successful is that they built upon that system and gave you like 100 character selections. 

I would like to see the enemy a.i. to be more powerful. I think endless scaling needs to go and maybe cap at 100, however armor and health are also fixed. 

Perhaps the enemies could function as units and we got officers in the game? 

Currently I like warframe as it is however I do see that frames need to be balanced more.

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

You know what, I used to think this game needed to have more skill to be more fun. I used to think I wanted to I wanted a challenge or something that was actually difficult.

But then I realized that the best moments I had in this game wasn't from playing anything challenging, but was from doing something new and exciting. Grabbing the sonicor and ragdolling enemies, playing stealth with Ivara, or going ham on enemies with Valkyr and Scindo are some of my favorite moments in Warframe. These moments are moments only found in Warframe and are the reasons I keep going back to play the game.

Rather than to keep attempting to make the game more "challenging" and punishing players for attempting something different, the game should be rewarding for players attempting something different. 

[Urska]

Who wants warframe to be dark souls?

no, that be really unfun n kinda bad

Who wants warframe to be ninja gaiden?

have not played it but i rember it being hard, normal "hard" ya

Who wants warframe to be a better version of Destiny?

everyone who wasted money on that game lol, warframe already better that game...soooo

What do you want warframe to be?

tbh, i feel its fine how it is. has room for easy stuff but fully has room for more harder "real" content. i wish they do more events, they are just SO fun

Edited April 30, 2016 by Urska
BOLD!

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

p

4 hours ago, PikeOrShield said:

"Agree with me or your opinion contributes nothing to this post or any thread ever."  Yeaaaahhhhhh.....

I would be happy if they capped enemy damage at around level 80 or 90 and reworked armor scaling.  It would help solidify what is "endgame" enemy damage (and frame survivability expectations) while still letting enemies scale with health in endless runs. That's about it.  Also, I think the cat ladies are fine unless you in level 120+ content.  I guess I contributed nothing then.

It's not like that, or it may be, but really, if someone says "I like warframe to be hard" and some one else says "warframe is too hard" and the the other person says "I have no problem, so you shouldn't"....and that's all the feed back either side gives ....that's just starting flame wars. It was late, but I was just trying ask people not to do this.

You contributed everything ? you didn't just jump in and state what you experienced in the game and why everyone else sucked because they dont have the same experience

Edited April 30, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO

[Dragon_AV]

What is fun: being caught of guard by a new enemy type/new ability and learning it through fighting it instead of using google.

What is not fun: Having to repeat the same thing over and over again and being oneshotted by hard to spot and very sneaky enemies (*cough* rathuum drones *cough*).

[NoeleVeerod]

This is by far one of the most interesting topics that I have seen around recently.

I want Warframe to be hard. Just, not the kind of hard that would drive everybody to frustration.

I think that Warframe is growing up so much that it could offer PLENTY of degrees of difficulty.
The upcoming Lunaro, for example, is supposed to give a much more relaxed PvP environment for those who want to face other players, but don't want to be locked in a challenging competition that is Conclave. On the other hand, for those who want to push themselves, Lunaro may sound underwhelming.
This of course is just speculation, but hopefully will illustrate what I'm trying to say: Warframe can be easy and hard at the same time. You can be skilled in both casual and competitive environments, you just have to choose if you want to be pushed hard or if you want to enjoy a more relaxed competition.

What really DOES NOT make sense to me is that everything is brought to the same level. You can't expect easy bits of the game to be hard just bcause you find them easy, and you can't expect hard bits of the game to be easier because they are supposed to be hard.
Sorties, for example, are made to be sort of punishing, and they are fine that way. You shouldn't go play Sorties if you are not prepared for them (and farming Draco non-stop until you vomit is NOT counted as being prepared). Likewise, it's rather stupid that you go seek a challenge by farming easy missions - of course the game is easy if you have the arsenal of a planetary mass murderer and keep playing the same trivial missions non stop.

As for what is fun and what is not, that unfortunately is highly subjective.
What is fun for me is playing old missions in a different way. Choosing a specific themed loadout, trying to go stealth, running the mission as if I was shooting some kind of machinima film. Or gathering my clannies in Conclave and shooting the hell out of each other. Or taking it a notch up and joining the fray in Public lobbies, getting that rep for Teshin as well as refining my skills against player targets (which ultimately has made me a much better player in PvE).
What is not fun for me is: farming Draco/Sorties/Trials/Void all day non stop without doing ANYTHING ELSE. Warframe is such a vast game, and I see lots of people limiting themselves to just a handful of missions. No wonder why they are so bored - I would be bored as well, and much more than they are.
That doesn't mean I don't like Trials (they are complex and demand some degree of team work, and I like it) or Sorties (soloing them can be interesting, given the proper conditions); nor it means that I never run Draco or Voids (I like the Void's tileset, and sometimes I go farm a bit as well). What I don't like is limiting myself to those features and not doing anything else because "I would be wasting my time otherwise", not to mention the god-mode builds that ended up trivialising the current endgame content.

But again, all this tl;dr paragraph is my point of view. Other people find it entertaining. I disagree with them so much. But who am I to tell them?

Balancing grinding, difficulty and fun is hard as hell. It appears that DE hasn't found the solution to this issue yet. But I'm confident. I didn't like PvP at first, but look at me now: it's a nice alternative for when I could care less about grinding but still want to play Warframe. Lunaro will be the same for those who love a friendly match but doesn't want to be forced into Conclave. Warframe is far from having found the perfect balance, but the game is vast and still expanding.

Hopefully this reply will be meaningful to you OP, I didn't want to pass this chance because I think this is a very important topic to discuss.

Edited April 30, 2016 by -Vin-

[BlackCoMerc]

6 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I just want the game to require skill more than gear and mods, for all Warframes to be balanced and for enemy design to not be full of things like instakills, invulnerability and unavoidable effects. That's it. No instakills, no infinite scaling, gameplay that actually requires SKILL, and that doesn't actively encourage cheese strats.

But the problem with this is that fixing the issue requires reworks of multiple core systems and enemies, completely changing certain enemy design and modding and doing a balance pass on all abilities and scaling stats. The foundation is broken and anything built on top of it is just as bad, but it's become such a monumental flaw that it can't just be scribbled out in one go.

Completely agree. Posted an idea for a rebalance in General Feedback, even. But yeah...complete rebalance is needed. ASAP.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

8 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I just want the game to require skill more than gear and mods, for all Warframes to be balanced and for enemy design to not be full of things like instakills, invulnerability and unavoidable effects. That's it. No instakills, no infinite scaling, gameplay that actually requires SKILL, and that doesn't actively encourage cheese strats.

But the problem with this is that fixing the issue requires reworks of multiple core systems and enemies, completely changing certain enemy design and modding and doing a balance pass on all abilities and scaling stats. The foundation is broken and anything built on top of it is just as bad, but it's become such a monumental flaw that it can't just be scribbled out in one go.

Does DE feel this way, that it's near unfixable? I hope not. I hope they have a plan to over haul and fix everything. If not...I guess this as good as good gets :/ i mean, I still love warframe though, always will, just let's find a solution. Cure the cancer.

[AdunSaveMe]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Does DE feel this way, that it's near unfixable? I hope not. I hope they have a plan to over haul and fix everything. If not...I guess this as good as good gets :/ i mean, I still love warframe though, always will, just let's find a solution. Cure the cancer.

All we can hope is that they actually see it as a problem. I don't remember them ever mentioning it, so it doesn't look good.

Edited April 30, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[brucifer1]

I like the idea of having varying degrees of challenge, we all have a different point where we draw the line between challenging and frustrating. I also believe that the "end game" missions should be the most challenging. However I do not like the idea that challenging should mean simply scaling up the mobs to uber levels. The Warframes are supposed to (on a one-one level) far out class anything the Corpus or Grineer can but on the field. For 95% of the game this holds true and the Warframes are fighting massively inferior units which have one advantage, that being sheer numbers. Once you hit the trials, sorties, or high level void survival and defense missions that changes. At that point you encounter mobs that can kill you in a couple of hits, while standard weapons barely scratch them. Special builds are then used over and over again to exploit a weakness that can get you through. To me amping up the enemy to level 100+ is an easy but cheap way to handle difficulty. The mobs should max out at the fairly weak state around level 40 in my opinion, but the environment should start getting far more difficult. There are numerous defenses that could be used by our enemies to safeguard areas, heavy gun turrets with overlapping fields of fire, minefields, poison gas and or irradiation traps, just to name a few. You can amp up the difficulty and make players use a strategic approach without suddenly making the supposedly awesome Warframes look weak and squishy when compared to the enemies they are supposed to be superior to. Unfortunately simply amping up all the stats to standard enemies is easier to do than designing new maps, new traps, and new automated defense systems. In my opinion the event boss fight was an attempt to do difficulty well while the event stadium fights against scaling units 100+ in level was difficulty done poorly.

[CheezThePimp]

I, for one, find Warframe to be good as it is in term of difficulty. There are other  things that need improvements.

The game offers plenty  of levels of difficulty for players to chose from and find what fun can be for them.

For me fun means balance between difficulty and survivability(ima let out the part of grinding bc its implied and its hard to find balance in such thing) and I found out that my comfort zone to have fun is enemies until level 60-70( with exceptions of some enemies that i find their mechanics should be polished). Beyond that the fun fades away for me.

And as long as DE doesnt force me to play out of my comfort zone Im happy.

 

[ArcusVeles]

I think a lot of the "challenge" should come from smarter enemies.  Even the the longest ranged of snipery enemies charge face first in to us, making them all just a blur of colors sent scattering at the end of a blade.

Enemies should back off from us when we approach and fire while retreating, they should each have distinctly different plans of self-preservation or approaches on attacking us, should be more conservative when alone and braver in large groups, and should try to mob us with sheer numbers and a combination of their complimentary tactics, not one shot us because they keep on leveling up and become impossible to kill before they land their one shot attack.

That's the sort of challenge I want in this game, and not goofy mini-game enemies or puzzles on short timers or constant health drain effects or infinite scaling to level 999 and so on.  The others have their place as amusing modifiers, but not as the core of gameplay.  I want to be hit with a horde, but I don't want it to be a horde that's as easy to cut down at 20 as it is at 2.  I used to think Nullifiers might be the start of that, with other enemies using the bubble for cover like they do sometimes and it being something for players to have to cope with, but Nullifiers are a total mess and end up just being another form of stat check or gear check instead of an increase in enemy tactics.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

3 hours ago, -Vin- said:

This is by far one of the most interesting topics that I have seen around recently.

I want Warframe to be hard. Just, not the kind of hard that would drive everybody to frustration.

I think that Warframe is growing up so much that it could offer PLENTY of degrees of difficulty.
The upcoming Lunaro, for example, is supposed to give a much more relaxed PvP environment for those who want to face other players, but don't want to be locked in a challenging competition that is Conclave. On the other hand, for those who want to push themselves, Lunaro may sound underwhelming.
This of course is just speculation, but hopefully will illustrate what I'm trying to say: Warframe can be easy and hard at the same time. You can be skilled in both casual and competitive environments, you just have to choose if you want to be pushed hard or if you want to enjoy a more relaxed competition.

What really DOES NOT make sense to me is that everything is brought to the same level. You can't expect easy bits of the game to be hard just bcause you find them easy, and you can't expect hard bits of the game to be easier because they are supposed to be hard.
Sorties, for example, are made to be sort of punishing, and they are fine that way. You shouldn't go play Sorties if you are not prepared for them (and farming Draco non-stop until you vomit is NOT counted as being prepared). Likewise, it's rather stupid that you go seek a challenge by farming easy missions - of course the game is easy if you have the arsenal of a planetary mass murderer and keep playing the same trivial missions non stop.

As for what is fun and what is not, that unfortunately is highly subjective.
What is fun for me is playing old missions in a different way. Choosing a specific themed loadout, trying to go stealth, running the mission as if I was shooting some kind of machinima film. Or gathering my clannies in Conclave and shooting the hell out of each other. Or taking it a notch up and joining the fray in Public lobbies, getting that rep for Teshin as well as refining my skills against player targets (which ultimately has made me a much better player in PvE).
What is not fun for me is: farming Draco/Sorties/Trials/Void all day non stop without doing ANYTHING ELSE. Warframe is such a vast game, and I see lots of people limiting themselves to just a handful of missions. No wonder why they are so bored - I would be bored as well, and much more than they are.
That doesn't mean I don't like Trials (they are complex and demand some degree of team work, and I like it) or Sorties (soloing them can be interesting, given the proper conditions); nor it means that I never run Draco or Voids (I like the Void's tileset, and sometimes I go farm a bit as well). What I don't like is limiting myself to those features and not doing anything else because "I would be wasting my time otherwise", not to mention the god-mode builds that ended up trivialising the current endgame content.

But again, all this tl;dr paragraph is my point of view. Other people find it entertaining. I disagree with them so much. But who am I to tell them?

Balancing grinding, difficulty and fun is hard as hell. It appears that DE hasn't found the solution to this issue yet. But I'm confident. I didn't like PvP at first, but look at me now: it's a nice alternative for when I could care less about grinding but still want to play Warframe. Lunaro will be the same for those who love a friendly match but doesn't want to be forced into Conclave. Warframe is far from having found the perfect balance, but the game is vast and still expanding.

Hopefully this reply will be meaningful to you OP, I didn't want to pass this chance because I think this is a very important topic to discuss.

Thank you for taking the time to post here, it is meaningful. It is easy to get stuck in a rut in warframe, grinding for virtual prizes, and not branching out to keep the game play varied and fun takes a toll. meaningful gameplay makes warframe fun, and it is possible to make it meaningful simply by keeping a fresh perspective on the game - that's what I got :)

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I kinda like Warframe the way it is with regards to the Warframes themselves.  

Operators?  Bleh...  Don't like them being only of one age demographic.

The enemies.  Well, I dunno if I'm just jaded from playing for 3 years, but they're all kinda cute now...  to the point I can't take any of them seriously anymore.  Hahahah.  

I'm not asking for cheap enemies like the Grineer Manic, but honestly I have zero fear of Grineer footsoldiers.  They're not intimidating at all, and shout European sounding gibberish.  (Not mocking the people of Europe, you guys have beautiful languages.  

The corpus don't look "slick" or future enough.  Not talking so much about the robots and moas, more the corpus crewmen.  Just look a bit lame with the box heads.

Infested are fun...  I like what DE has been doing with them and it's gotten better since the hive missions, etc.

I just want to feel intimidated by the enemies or they need worth hating, right now they're all too cute and cartooney.  I don't know if it's the oversaturated/colorful lightshow/lighting, etc.  Warframe had much darker feels before.  The graphics update helped a while back, but if you look at some really old screenshots and videos all the way up to update 10-12 you'll see everything looked more real.

I don't mind Warframe the way it is now, the fun is still there and after 3 years I still love this game very much, but these are my feelings for the current state of things.

So to clarify, I want more with regards to enemy tactics and looks with regards to feeling intimidated.  Not simply stat increases on their armor or getting one shotted by them.  I want them to realistically want to avoid my fire, etc...  Also...  I've asked for this a lot during the first couple years, but can the infested crawl on walls?  (or can we have a wall/ceiling crawling type?)

Edited April 30, 2016 by sushidubya

[EvilKam]

I just posted about this in event feedback.  I'll summarize it below.

There are 2 key, diametrically opposed types of gamers in Warframe.  The Challenge Hunter and the Conqueror.

1. Hunters seek a feeling of difficulty.  Everything needs to be challenging in order to be entertaining.  Reward comes from striving against, and overcoming difficulty.
2. Conquerors seek Victory.  Failure ruins entertainment, winning is what brings joy.  Reward comes from achieving enough power to eliminate difficulty.

I think I could add a couple more archetypes, but they can both find fun in games for either Hunters or Conquerors.
The Mad Bomber seeks entertainment.  Victory or loss are unimportant, so long as there's chaos, explosions, and lots of fun.
The Casual is just killing time.  Maybe friends play Warframe, and he/she is along for the ride, or perhaps just trying it out.

The problem is that you can only design content for a Hunter, or for a Conqueror.  Since each seeks something very different and opposite, catering to one means leaving out the other.  Warframe's dilemma is that both have already spent a lot of money on the game, and both have developed an attachment to the game.  Both have had rewarding experiences in the past, with some shining moments to praise, and some frustrating lows to hotly contend against.

Warframe's mission based layout means that some sections can be aimed at Challenge Hunters, and other sections aimed at Conquerors.

I am a Conqueror.  I seek to attain the power needed to make all game-play trivially easy.  My real life is filled with enough challenges for me.  Video games are my escape.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, CheezThePimp said:

I, for one, find Warframe to be good as it is in term of difficulty. There are other  things that need improvements.

The game offers plenty  of levels of difficulty for players to chose from and find what fun can be for them.

For me fun means balance between difficulty and survivability(ima let out the part of grinding bc its implied and its hard to find balance in such thing) and I found out that my comfort zone to have fun is enemies until level 60-70( with exceptions of some enemies that i find their mechanics should be polished). Beyond that the fun fades away for me.

And as long as DE doesnt force me to play out of my comfort zone Im happy.

 

But they do force us to play certain things. All the time.

Don't line Spy? Say goodbye to half the mods you ever wanted.

Don't like puzzle bosses with cheap, annoying invulnerable phases and knockdown / roller spam? Too bad; no starmap progress for you.

Don't like one shot deaths? No T4 Prime parts for you.

Want new mods? Do the godawful cheap new event.

Being able to find your niche us great. On the other hand, DE keeps hiding rewards behind new, tedious, grind riddled content.