DE: Sibear and Vauban Prime just revealed a very important problem in Warframe

[RagDollRat]

I have Sibear, its hard to make because its freaking amazing and imo the best mellee in game

but on that not its not THAT bad of a grind for it, all you need to do is get an ACTUAL party together seperate into 2 groups and make sure to keep on deploying 2 excavators at once

also the grind in warframe is NOWHERE as near as bad as it was 3 years ago were people like myself had to grind for 70+ hours just for full frost blueprints so pls stop, this is a mmofps with grind being a joke, especialy compared to other pc mmo's. god forbid you actualy have to play the game more than 15 minutes to get everything you want :l

[RagDollRat]

20 hours ago, RPGforDINNER said:

okay so i see all these threads popping up about ooh building requirements for the new stuff are too high when we the community already complained about the 14k oxium for a single vauban part they halved it but you people don't wanna stop there nooooo let's make everything cost way less to craft and keep creating these rant/dissapointment threads

yea its bad m'kay, most gear in the game is a complete joke to  get compared to when we first started years ago, i wish these new guys had to go through what we did for frost xD bet theyed perma quit

20 hours ago, Tsoe said:

i never saw a game where yu can acquire the last gear for free in few days as a new player

but you can in warframe

and once it require more than few days to get ppl start whining all over the place

 

yea ALLOT of ppl are very vocal and feel entitled to all the content of the game demanding they be able to get and craft it in under like 10 mins :/

i was so shocked when i came back from a several year break to find the new drop system aka here is everything because why should farming be a thing in a free mmo?

[Judgebanks]

12 hours ago, LaoTao said:

also the grind in warframe is NOWHERE as near as bad as it was 3 years ago were people like myself had to grind for 70+ hours just for full frost blueprints so pls stop, this is a mmofps with grind being a joke, especialy compared to other pc mmo's. god forbid you actualy have to play the game more than 15 minutes to get everything you want :l

Technically you have not been playing for 3 years.

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

On May 19, 2016 at 7:12 AM, (XB1)I Killed brunts said:

It's about 700-1000 oxium osprey kills, which aren't that common. If you don't happen to gold core farm which I don't and have since farming spent your oxium (grattler, mantis) it's an absolute PITA. 

Ive built grattler and mantis and had little too no oxium after.  And i dont core farm.

Yesterday i traded a couple items to acquire 40p then bought a double up booster.

i went too Cerburus with my trusty friends, we used to slovas and two nekros.

We did three games to round 6, i will no longer need oxium till the next weapon or frame that needs it.

and i have alittle extra left over from what i needed for vauban!

 

The real issue here is the players that dont understand farming games. If there isnt any CG videos too explain to them 100 times how too complete their goal they get angry and shout!

 

i remember my first farming game! And i strongly remember how much i didnt like it.

but i also remember when i had my first farming revalation. It became kind of like an addiction from there!

DE needs too find a way too implement a farming tutorial.. Imo

Edited May 21, 2016 by (XB1)Listed mia 510

[kubbi]

This is why DE keeps pushing the grind. People keep supporting it.

[SilvaDreams]

28 minutes ago, kubbi said:

This is why DE keeps pushing the grind. People keep supporting it.

Sorry but reality check, there has to be some grind or there is no game.

Every game that has any progression has grind, even Call of Duty and Modern Warfare have grinding.

[kubbi]

18 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Sorry but reality check, there has to be some grind or there is no game.

Every game that has any progression has grind, even Call of Duty and Modern Warfare have grinding.

In warframe's case its not "some grind". Its mindnumbing, repeating and over the top boring grind.

[SilvaDreams]

1 minute ago, kubbi said:

In warframe's case its not "some grind". Its mindnumbing, repeating and over the top boring grind.

And it is different from any other game How?

Play any mmo there is lots of grind, some just gateway their endgame content with hard daily limits because getting to endgame takes aweek at best.

Play a RPG, your going to grind to level up.

I'm sorry but learn to enjoy the grind, do it with friends, talk whatever.

If you find it so horrid.... Well go play solitaire or something.

[kubbi]

22 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

And it is different from any other game How?

Play any mmo there is lots of grind, some just gateway their endgame content with hard daily limits because getting to endgame takes aweek at best.

Play a RPG, your going to grind to level up.

I'm sorry but learn to enjoy the grind, do it with friends, talk whatever.

If you find it so horrid.... Well go play solitaire or something.

The problem is that the grind wasn't so bad at the start. Its gradually getting worse. Why would you support something thats getting worse? Shouldn't the goal be to get better? 

I can enjoy grind if its on reasonable levels but it no longer is. And in case please dont bring up the argument "its worse in other games". Thats like saying you can't feel sad because others have it worse.

[Skyblade799]

Oh boy, seems that some of the responses in this thread got to me. Well then...

Farming isn't hard. Farming in video games consists of taking a long amount of time to do a repetitive task. It's grind, which means long, distracting and depreciating amounts of repetition. Does that make it hard? No. Time consumption isn't difficulty; if it was, grinders like maple-story and rune-scape would be the most difficult games in the world. They aren't. Even better; sitting in a room doing nothing as your only passing hobby would somehow make for the most mentally challenging and physically exhaustive task in the world; that instead would be entirely the opposite of challenging. Furthermore, making things long to get doesn't suddenly make them some kind of "reasonable" goal that cannot be criticized.

A weapon that only long term players should be able to get? Lock it behind some kind of later game difficulty, not an absurd time-sink based on repeating the same, singular mode over and over again to the point of it being unpleasant. After a short period of figuring out how the mission works and what to use, there's no thought, no challenge, just how much of my life I'm willing to throw away to get it. By that point I've already done the real legwork (so to speak), and then it just consists of time, and nothing more then time. With the exception of invasion marks, nothing is going to happen mid mission to shift my focus and make me think a little. I would be sitting there, wasting away.

Which is why I'm not bothering to grind for Vauban prime, Sibear, or any of the rathuum mods; it's not fun. The content is just getting stretched far too thin nowadays (AKA they expect the limited content to be re-run far too many times). The last time I felt this was equinox, mesa, and arch-wing. I still haven't bothered to get the rest of those frames, and archwing was a flop, so it didn't affect things much. Now, rathuum has actually interesting mods behind it, Vauban is a genuine part of late game progression for those who use him, and Sibear is a massive amount of time on a singular game-mode with no variety; it's like a worse version of the void survival, but at least with keys, oxygen, and RNG thrown out of the way (because you at least are ensured cryotic).

This isn't to say I hate the game because of this problem; I still enjoy it, but the content is far too lacking in depth for me to bother doing it anywhere near as many times as is required for the measly reward presented each time. I want the content to be more approachable within reason for the purpose of skill, or if time is the requirement, an hour or two instead of an entire day for the sake of a single item; they don't even seem to be trying to make it that way. While warframe is a nice time sink, for new players, coming in and just seeing and hearing about increasingly large walls of time as opposed to good, quality content is not going to be a very encouraging notion. 

People are supposed to be coming in and seeing warframe as a good/fun to spend time, not something that they hear will eventually become —as so many seem to passively state — painful to experience due the eventual need to repeatedly do the same thing hundreds of times to get anywhere within reason. It wasn't always so grindy; remember? Getting a new frame by killing a boss at most 12 times took a couple of hours (IE 2 at most); it got way worse with frames like mesa and equinox which can days... Remember when the most difficult to obtain materials were the currently so called "rare materials", which can be obtained on your own time through a variety of areas (minus neural sensors which need another location)? Remember when the worst grind was a weekend for a set of prime items? Now it's a week for so much as a singular hammer or prime frame, with materials that are dependent on random, time disrespecting alerts and extreme grinding.

Yes, time disrespecting; because life as it turns out, can get in the way of whether or not you can even consider getting enough niatin within a reasonable time frame. God forbid you only have a couple of hours on a weekend to play; how dare you think you should be able to choose when you get these items? We are going to choose for you... What an awful mindset. If you don't see it that way, then it's not like I can pry your eyes open with somekind of verbal crowbar. It's up to you by that point to stick yourself in the position of other players; newer players, time constrained players, etc. Get a perspective of the position that they are in, with far, far less then you have in materials and time, and see how the road ahead looks from that perspective.

Lastly, on a side note, I'm so sick of the massive quantity of fallacious, logically deprived statements that flood the forums whenever someone so dares to ask for something to change. Whether it be the common "well you don't need to do it", the ridiculously unreasonable no-lifing "it only takes 6 hours a day", the flimsy "the game is doing well, so this decision must not be flawed", or the hopeless "other games do it worse, so the poor way it is done in this game must be ok" kinds of reasoning, among hundreds of infuriatingly thoughtless statements. Stop it.

 

 

[DzeraDragonbane]

On 5/19/2016 at 10:08 PM, tizodd said:

I totally agree that the shear amount of resources is way too high for new or more casual players.

It's my opinion that the resource costs of things like Vauban P and Sibear should be lowered.  For long-time or hard care players, they would be rewarded by not having to farm so extensively; for the new or more casual player, the resource farm wouldn't be so disheartening.

DE has two ways to fix this.

Increase the oxium drop amount/chance or more enemies drop it or simply decrease the requirements. Well for the vauban p problem. 

Never had a problem about cryotic though.

Idc about the issue though since I can farm Vauban at a later date lol

Edited May 21, 2016 by DzeraDragonbane

[DeFragMe]

just es general question, but why do people keep on saying that the grind did not used to be so hard?

The grind was way harder in the beginning. At least when i began to play. nowdays thats way faster.

[SilvaDreams]

1 minute ago, DzeraDragonbane said:

DE has two ways to fix this.

Increase the oxium drop amount/chance or more enemies drop it or simply decrease the requirements. Well for the vauban p problem.

Never had a problem about cryotic though.

Oxium drops have been increased, use to only be one piece at a time.

Though new players should have no issues if they play the game and don't get taxied.

As for the casuals.... I'm sorry but not every game is going to cave and cater themselves to you who play an hour or two a day is equal to someone who invests note time.

[Hypernaut1]

24 minutes ago, DeFragMe said:

just es general question, but why do people keep on saying that the grind did not used to be so hard?

The grind was way harder in the beginning. At least when i began to play. nowdays thats way faster.

I have no idea, people just like to repeat that to try to prove a point. 

I remember when I had to grind to make Wyrm...a sentinel. 300 oxium was NOT easy to get. IMO Vauban is about the same level of grind and he is a brand new prime frame.

There is also so many ways to make plat now compared to a few years ago when the only valuable thing you could sell were rare mods and parts that depended on RNG to get. These days you can save your ducats and buy extra prime mods, or use syndicate rep to sell mods/weapons and then trade those for plat. Sell sortie parts (which community sabatoged by whining) Use plat to buy rare parts or items that elude you.

You can also get resource boosters with ducats, You can get boosters by just logging in, and its pretty common (for me at least). You can also just buy beacons to farm bosses. 

Some things have remained the same, a few things have gotten a bit more difficult, but the grind has definitely softened up overall.

All the complaints about the sibear requirements amounted to nothing.DE saw that players were crafting it with no problem so they upped the ante a bit for a Prime Frame of a rare Frame.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[SenorClipClop]

On 5/19/2016 at 9:52 AM, Violetear said:

Spoiler

 

Hello, mi name is Violetear and I have been part of the Warframe community since last autumn, I have experienced The Second Dream, three Prime Access and a variety of other things, but of that last batch the two most important are the Sibear and Vauban Prime.

 

With an astronomical cost of 30,000 Cryotic units to build the Sibear and 7,000 Oxium for Vauban Prime a conceptual problem in Warframe has come to light: the “endgame”.

 

But let us back up first and return to the Sibear; the requirement of 30,000 Cryotic translates to 30 excavation runs of 10 excavators each, a middle level mission (Zeugma, Phobos) takes around 24 minutes to complete 10 excavators in an optimal situation, 4 player squad with either a Vauban or a Frost and some weapons with at least a 6+ base damage mod. This 4-man elite squad would get the required Cryotic in around 720 minutes or 12 hours.

 

The counterargument that is usually posed against this is that this players more than likely already have the required Cryotic from doing other things is the game, such as Fusion Core farming. But this is a dangerous argument in the sense that is can easily be turned around. “If players have silos full of resources how much would it really cost them to invest those on a weapon or a Warframe?” says one group, “These weapons and frames should work like milestones” says the other.

 

But in these cyclic discussions the only group that matters are the ones we started with: highly experimented and specialized players.

 

As time has gone by, even before I came into the game, the game has been slowly balancing towards the more experienced players (as shown by DE[Glen]’s 2000 Cryotic experiment), this wasn’t a problem in the early days where the absolute gap between players was despicable, but Rathuum, the Sibear and Vauban Prime have demonstrated that the gap is big enough to become a problem. In a system where resources are stored infinitely the excess most either go circulate or be eliminated, and the game only allows the second option. The game is presenting something akin to an inflation problem, where individual resources and worth less and less as time goes on, and both the Sibear and Vauban Prime are answers to the stockpiles.

 

Ideas like resource caps are temporal solutions to a bigger problem that most be addressed as soon as possible. Since the beginning of Warframe DE has declared that they don’t believe in an “endgame” as is, I perceive as a result of the sentiment that doing so would create gaps and elitism in the community. The problem is that those factors have already cropped up into the game: not all players are equal, and it would be ideal having all of them be but we must accept that reality is different and treating players like if they are all the same only favors those who take advantage of the system and disfavors everyone else.

 

Warframe needs a real progression that allows differentiation between new and experienced players in a substantial way that goes beyond the mods or the insignificant MR system. Progression by story is a good way to introduce new mechanics, but it also can introduce things like resources and objectives whose value goes beyond filling up a bar with Affinity and can give experienced players a similar comparative value to the new ones so that then can both experience challenges that go according to their level, skill and time invested.

 

When U18 arrived and news that the Sentients would play a major role were revealed I hoped that that meant access to the Tau system, a new beginning for experienced players where they can face challenges created specifically for them and go beyond reducing your energy or limiting your weapon choices like Sorties do. That way each sector of the player base would have their own system balanced to their capabilities and both new and old Tenno don’t have to suffer thanks to the sins of the other. The problem has come to a point where veteran players exploit the system to the extreme in order to face a challenge and new players have to pay the consequence of that exploiting, at the same time new players struggle to pass Sedna and both the Starchart and Void have to be balanced around them so that they can play, but then the veteran players, being so far ahead from the new, have to go to gigantic lengths to find a place where they can feel challenged. It is a cyclic system, and the cycle is becoming larger as time goes on  

 

DE, players are not all equal and for the good of the game you should stop treating them like they are. Are they all capable of reaching the peak of the mountain? Absolutely. Should they all be treated like they are in the peak or at the bottom? Absolutely not.

 

 

This is General Discussion, a forum for players to converse with other players. If anyone at Digital Extremes reads this, it will be by pure happenstance. If you want DE to actually address this to DE and let them hear what you have to say, post this in Feedback.

Is DE tailoring its new stuff to "endgame" content? Sure, why not. Absolutely. They have to, for reasons of design, creativity and company practice.

Many players have been with this game for years and have all all the weapons, millions of credits and a surplus of every resource you can imagine. If new weapons come out with starter-level requirements, more players will find their acquisiton effortless, and therefore won't possess much meaning. Let's use the Sibear as an example. If this ice hammer came out and only required 1000 Cryotic to make, or even 5000, any player who's been on Warframe for longer than a few weeks won't bat an eye at the cost. But since it costs you 30000 Cryotic, even many veteran players will take a second and have to think about this weapon. Do they really need it right now, or do they wait a little while until they have more Cryotic to spare, just in case they need some for other things? This high cost makes players make meaningful decisions about what they do in the game, and it also helps the weapon feel more valuable. If the Sibear were as easy to construct as say, Fragor, players could easily level it and burn it, but if it cost them a whole bunch of time and effort, they may hang onto the weapon, experiment with it more deeply and ideally add it to their arsenal of regularly-used equipment. These weapons are supposed to take time to work up to making. If all weapons could be crafted easily, players could rush through the content much faster and would be more likely to get bored and stop playing, which is what no developer wants.

In the creative field of things, the new stuff is mostly high-end stuff because simply put, would you rather have the creative team spend their time on making more simple, classic weapons like the Lato? While this would give new players more options, there can be too much of a good thing. I myself at MR12 haven't even touched half of the weapons easily available to me, notably many of the starter-level weapons (Magnus, Vasto, Braton, Strun, Ether Sword, etc.). Creating more of these weapons will frustrate players at all levels. And no, we can't make the starter weapons innately more powerful without associating some kind of extra effort to acquire this power. In this area, DE is doing a pretty good job of making starter weapons viable into later in the game with the help of Mods, and these Mods are (rightly) behind gates of time, involvement and difficulty. If DE is making more weapons, I feel we would all rather they spend their time making interesting, complex and powerful weapons. New players may have a bit of a wait to use these new ones, but they can bide their time by playing with some of the older weapons they haven't tried and building up a catalogue of the stuff they like to play. If a Tenno has leveled even a quarter of the weapons available and hasn't played the game enough to have some resources to throw around at the new expensive stuff, I'd be very surprised. Going back to the Sibear, if you don't have at least most of the the required 30000 Cryotic by now, you either haven't been playing this game that long and there are many other melee weapons you have yet to experience, or you never play Excavations. In both cases, try treating the Sibear as incentive to try new weapons and/or mission types.

Let's also look at this from an economic standpoint. Warframe really needs to cater to its veteran players, because the longer a player is with a game, the more likely they are to spend money on it. DE needs to keep the interest of these veteran players in order to fund the company and keep the game running, especially since Warframe is free to play.

So in short, yes, new content is generally geared toward veteran players. But for new players, ALL content is new content. It's not that hard to get most things in the game, especially weapons. It may take a while, but if you want a certain weapon that badly and have a little patience, you can play up to it eventually. And if you can't stand not having it right now, there's the market. Support Warframe by buying platinum (wait for a discount) or farm prime bits and sell them to paying players. Just don't complain that a game you're getting for free has lofty play requirements for certain parts of its content.

[RagDollRat]

14 hours ago, kubbi said:

In warframe's case its not "some grind". Its mindnumbing, repeating and over the top boring grind.

but... but... your also a founder

I don't like to disagree with fellow founders D:

Don't make me do this D:

the grind in warframe as of now Is a joke

sortie rewards and A FEW void rewards aside 99% of ALL content in game can be obtained by doing a specific mission 3-5 times :l each mission taking like 1-5 mins  xD THATS BADDDDD especialy for a free mmo fps, it took me longer to hit rank 55 in black ops 3 during double xp weekend then it did to get all the mats and blueprints and max level for almost all modern frames and guns combined :l

[RagDollRat]

8 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

snip

ive been playing for years the devs do in fact read the forums, and the head admin is the voice actor for lotus so ya xD

also tickets are read by real people, and forum tickets can often lead to you directly talking to DErebbeca =D

[RagDollRat]

11 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

snip

I remember when devs made the events narly impossible to succeed at as a community as a whole, why I remember when you had to farm 40+ hours just to get FROST >..>

I remember the days of old when you WERENT GARUNTEED blueprints every mission -_-;

and stalker wepaons were legit rare

[kubbi]

22 hours ago, LaoTao said:

but... but... your also a founder

I don't like to disagree with fellow founders D:

Don't make me do this D:

the grind in warframe as of now Is a joke

sortie rewards and A FEW void rewards aside 99% of ALL content in game can be obtained by doing a specific mission 3-5 times :l each mission taking like 1-5 mins  xD THATS BADDDDD especialy for a free mmo fps, it took me longer to hit rank 55 in black ops 3 during double xp weekend then it did to get all the mats and blueprints and max level for almost all modern frames and guns combined :l

Thats all dependant on your luck. I don't know about yours but for some items I had to do 50+ missions to obtain it. I remember doing over 90 runs for Embers blueprint in the earlier days. Again I'd like to make it clear that I have nothing against grind in general as long as its on reasonable levels. Since the grind in warframe is coupled with weighted RNG its very unpredictable. A token system of some sort would be helpfull.

[SenorClipClop]

22 hours ago, LaoTao said:

ive been playing for years the devs do in fact read the forums, and the head admin is the voice actor for lotus so ya xD

also tickets are read by real people, and forum tickets can often lead to you directly talking to DErebbeca =D

If someone wants to leave feedback about the game, there's a whole other forum to put that in. While Devs read the forums, addressing something to DE through the Feedback forum specifically is a far better way to make sure you're recognized.

[Kryshok]

Ever think that the high cost of crafting Vaughban is in fact due to how hard it is to get the original non prime version. Oxium is not hard to farm...it used to be impossible to farm until DE made Osprey's drop it 100% of the time as long as they don't explode first.

[BAD9eR]

On 5/19/2016 at 3:10 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

This is not a problem at all. People are making a mountain out of nothing as usual.

You shouldn't be able to get the latest stuff without some grinding if you want it bloody free, or the game would die very fast. And don't say the grind will kill the game. Wf has always been  grind heavy and it's more popular than ever.

 

The real problem are all the entitled players who are used to either already having all the resources they need to build something, or at least finding it easy to get the rest. It's absurd.

 

You want new stuff in a free game? Either pay money or put in some serious effort.

 

Last point: people say grind has gotten worse but I disagree. Some resource requirements have gone up, but some resources drop in bigger quantities now and the vast majority of players have a lot of extra resources.

 

The people complaining about building mats are a loud group, but a very small minority with no leg to stand on. Either pay money or put in effort. Don't just expect stuff for free.

 

Seriously the people complaining are almost all "customers" who never pay for anything... and are complaining about free stuff being too hard to get. Do none of you see how utterly entitled and illogical that is? 

 

They already lowered the oxium a lot just to be nice to angry players that have mostly never spent a cent on the game. Go farm the resources and stop complaining or buy it. You don't need the latest prime right now anyway. You just want it right now.

how are you supposed to farm nitain if you work a 16 hour day like i do ?

[Hypernaut1]

16 minutes ago, BAD9eR said:

how are you supposed to farm nitain if you work a 16 hour day like i do ?

your not. simple.

Either you live with that fact, or you pull a few all nighters. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

On 5/19/2016 at 9:52 AM, Violetear said:

Ideas like resource caps are temporal solutions to a bigger problem that most be addressed as soon as possible. Since the beginning of Warframe DE has declared that they don’t believe in an “endgame” as is, I perceive as a result of the sentiment that doing so would create gaps and elitism in the community.

In MMORPGs, there's always going to be an "end game", and that's due to the time to produce the next patch with the next kewl stuff to RACE to get. So folks will get there, got the stuff, and usually, act like asshats while there.

It's a never ending roller coaster.

I just wish getting to "end-game" wasn't always about gear itself. THAT gets boring. What will Warframe become with 3000+ weapons and 100s of frames???

Edited May 23, 2016 by Kevyne_Kicklighter

[BAD9eR]

37 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

your not. simple.

Either you live with that fact, or you pull a few all nighters. 

bulls*&t ! just because i work a 80 - 90 hour week means im not allowed stuff ?ever ? because theres only 4x 1 hr alerts a day.  if nitain was available to buy in the market i would spend. having it this way means DE are alienating the most profitable part of the playerbase. Those who work a lot , play and want to advance with gear ect. Instead of investing time i   should be able to invest money to counteract the missing time investment  With nitain i can't for some reason.  and saying you ant so live with it just makes you out to be a bit of an &#!. good day to you sir!