Sorties Show Just How Broken Armor Scaling Is Currently

[owendawgx]

I mean this really shouldn't need any further explanation. 

Enemies should become harder to kill because they have more health, not because weapons completely cease doing damage after a certain point. It's silly, and just mandates certain team compositions (as in all corrosive projection), therefore eliminating aura diversity completely.

Maybe Mag rework will alleviate this to a degree, but that's still ignoring the bigger issue. 

Flat armor values with scaling health would make much more sense. It seems like you're punishing players who want to take on high level missions by limiting their options if they want to be even remotely effective.

[(XBOX)EntropysAcolyte]

I am im complete agreement. Watching the tick marks of all but my best weapons chip away at high armored foes is laborious and does indeed greatly reduce the mod selection when creating a fisable spread to go into the mission with.  

I am a raving fan of this post ?

[Dracorya]

Ugh, I can attest to this. Assassination mission against Alad and all four of us were barely making a dent in Zanuka's armor even with our best weapons. Pretty much unless you coordinate everyone carrying corrosive projections and corrosive/puncture weapons, be prepared for very long dragged out fights.

[alexmach1]

Fully modded Rubico, max zoom, nothing but headshots. Armor scaling is nuts.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

On 5/23/2016 at 4:53 PM, owendawgx said:

I mean this really shouldn't need any further explanation. 

Enemies should become harder to kill because they have more health, not because weapons completely cease doing damage after a certain point. It's silly, and just mandates certain team compositions (as in all corrosive projection), therefore eliminating aura diversity completely.

Maybe Mag rework will alleviate this to a degree, but that's still ignoring the bigger issue. 

Flat armor values with scaling health would make much more sense. It seems like you're punishing players who want to take on high level missions by limiting their options if they want to be even remotely effective.

The scaling problem is across everything, not just armor.

You can see the problem WoW is having, even with the rework and reoptimization of gear, at "end-game" the bosses health now is 20,000,000+. Numbers like that it's even dificult to run the math over (and the rescaling was DUE to the engine hit it's limit on HP).

Same problem exists in Warframe but with armor.

Mag isn't going to fix that problem, as it'll still scale and players are right back to having 4 CP auras, and possible 2 Mags in their group.

[tnccs215]

Forced to agree. It is tolerable to have both shields and health scale: After all, shields chip away much like health.

But having a value that reduces the damage done scaling up AS WELL as the health itself is just ludicrous. Armor should be constant, not scalable. Yes, some weapon rebalancing should be in order not to make us OP, but it is necessary nonetheless that armor scaling is, if not removed, at least severely modified.

I end up running with a slash+viral status focused melee. Reduces health by half, and ignores armor for the most part. Couple it with damage/speed increasing frames just as Rhino, Chroma, Valkyr or Volt, and you are able to go much further than anyone else. I advise either Nikana Prime (high crit and status. Use Bleeding wounds. Do carry an augmented Furis to compensate the absence of life strike), spin2win galantine, or other high status, high slash (and preferably high crit) melee.

Edited May 25, 2016 by tnccs215

[(PSN)ManOfFailures]

5 hours ago, alexmach1 said:

Fully modded Rubico, max zoom, nothing but headshots. Armor scaling is nuts.

This proves that snipers are fine and armor scaling is good

Edited May 25, 2016 by (PS4)pastard323

[tnccs215]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)pastard323 said:

This proves that snipers are fine and armor scaling is good

everything is fine.

nerfs are always bad.

Tonkor is balanced.

Hysteria should be Valkyr's passive.

why am I so salty today

Edited May 25, 2016 by tnccs215

[Hayabusa97]

Eventually it gets to a point where CC induced Finishers and Red Crit Headshots are the only way to grievously injure or kill enemies.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Hayabusa97

[Naftal]

They should buff the base armor value of every enemy that has armor to a proper amount. Then remove armor scaling completely.

And nerf CP.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

3 minutes ago, Hayabusa97 said:

Eventually it gets to a point where CC induced Finishers and Red Crit Headshots are the only way to grievously injure or kill enemies.

Don't give them ideas. -_-

[tnccs215]

Just now, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Don't give them ideas. -_-

they don't need them.

Its already like this.

it gets to a point that daggers are simultaneously the only weapon viable and overpowered. Whether we are supposed to get to this point or not is arguable-- quite honestly, the fact that we can exploit up to it (*coff coff* trinity *coff coff* shadow step) kind of prove how unbalanced this game is. But still, way before that point, we are forced into using Rest, Blind, Quiver and other finisher inducing abilities, or you simply can't make a dent...

And, yet, I still find grineer the most tolerable enemy faction, because they are the only ones that don't cheese as much as we are (unfotunetly) capable too.

[Hayabusa97]

Just now, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Don't give them ideas. -_-

I literally just described the 1 hour T3S run I did last night (Link if interested Plays TV link, so it might suck) with some (pretty strong) randoms where the enemies started going into Sortie levels. Only reason we were not completely overwhelmed was because of the Trinity player ensuring we had unlimited energy, thus giving me a permanent cloak (and reviving overwhelmed teammates) and spamming sleep arrows (taking out Eximus and heavies), the Frost player freezing all the enemies, and the Nyx player throwing out Chaos and Absorb everywhere.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

8 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

they don't need them.

Its already like this.

it gets to a point that daggers are simultaneously the only weapon viable and overpowered. Whether we are supposed to get to this point or not is arguable-- quite honestly, the fact that we can exploit up to it (*coff coff* trinity *coff coff* shadow step) kind of prove how unbalanced this game is. But still, way before that point, we are forced into using Rest, Blind, Quiver and other finisher inducing abilities, or you simply can't make a dent...

And, yet, I still find grineer the most tolerable enemy faction, because they are the only ones that don't cheese as much as we are (unfotunetly) capable too.

Now go out with Mag and solo the same content as melee.................................

It's NOT a pretty sight!

Edited May 25, 2016 by Kevyne_Kicklighter

[Cryogenic_Leakage]

as kevyne_kicklighter said, the damage system system overall is not balanced in any way for high level play. We just have to wait for dmg 3.0 to pop in and hopefuly we'll see some big changes or a complete rework. Till then, here are some tips for higher levels:

-take Banshee with you, she applies dmg multipliers (up to 18x dmg) to the enemies with her sonar

-EV trin for mass energy spam

-status builds with a) viral b) ats + corrosion to get rid of armor

-take as many corrosive projection auras into your team as possible

 

Edited May 25, 2016 by CyrosGenax
visual changes

[tnccs215]

7 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Now go out with Mag and solo the same content as melee.................................

It's NOT a pretty sight!

true.

But defending DE, she is getting a rework. Plus, since there are several factions, is it a ad thing to have specialized frames? Frames that don't fair so well against a faction, but fair brilliantly against another? Mag is a good example of this. Indeed too good, because she is an overkill of corpus.

You could argue that the problem isn't specialized frames per se, but the complete imbalance that exist: Frames that excell everywhere and frames that fail everywhere. Which I'd agree, though I can argue Mag isn't the case... The infamous @Noamuth, for example, uses Mag all the time, and if I'm correct, most of her kills are against grineer. Mainly because pull, crush (augmented) and Mag's 3 aren't terrible against grineer...

I'm getting ahead of myself though. Point is: Not agreat example, but I see your point perfectly. Excuse the nitpicking

mh... I think,I'm gonna use Mag next time I do grineer or void survival.

[o.0-]

The main this is how Damage Reduction scales, along with Enemy Scaling.

So I've been thinking that the best aspect to explore first is adjusting how Damage Reduction works on enemy scaling (maybe setting a cap at some point, say 80%, for example), than being able to resist damage logarithmically increase to absurd numbers.

[Lynxh]

To be honest, this is a problem with having endless game modes. Even if DE tones down the armor scaling, sooner or later enemies will have health pools that will effectively achieve the same thing.

Reducing the armor scaling will only enable us to last longer until we run into the same "problem". There are only so many ways the game can make it harder on us, with all the means we currently have. I'd agree we need to tone it so it doesn't ramp up as fast as it does now though. Personally. I have damage numbers turned off since they serve no purpose. TTK is the only thing that matters to me, and as this topic shows, people seem to get down when they see small numbers. Seeing a huge damage number and not seeing my enemies health bar move is a lot more discouraging I'd say.

[Marbelik]

11 hours ago, alexmach1 said:

Fully modded Rubico, max zoom, nothing but headshots. Armor scaling is nuts.

How do you make this kind of gifs? Do you uploaded them to dropbox? Can someone give a hint or a tutorial page to do this please?

[hukurokuju5]

enemy durability scaling would become less of an issue if their insane damage scaling was addressed to not 1 shot every non valkyr on sight.

limit oneshot potential, and there will be no more tears loool

Edited May 25, 2016 by hukurokuju5

[MechaTails]

5 hours ago, Hayabusa97 said:

Eventually it gets to a point where CC induced Finishers and Red Crit Headshots are the only way to grievously injure or kill enemies.

That's unfortunately true. The only way I can kill enemies at that point, without whittling away enemy health until I turn grey and wrinkly, is with Furax counter/finishers that tend to OHKO enemies.

Endlessly scaling enemies inherently mess up a game's balance. If any of you know of any similar games where it works, please let us know, I'd like to see a situation where it benefits the game instead of causing friction in the community.

Edited May 25, 2016 by MechaTails

[ZodiacShinryu]

While I'm not saying there are not scaling problems (because around lv100 enemies should be more manageable for a larger selection of weapons/builds) but this is just a symptom of endless missions. Level 100 enemies should be reasonably difficult because they are the designed endgame range. However there is a large group of people that say they don't start having fun until enemies are getting closer to Lv200. Part of that problem is because WE have too much power; endless missions are supposed to be designed to push you out of the mission and not stay in until you get bored. Unfortunately we are only really pushed out because we get bored (of doing chip damage) ignoring some of the mission mechanics that pressure you.

In short, everyone needs to be scaled back on both sides.

[dwolfgheist]

Indeed the fact that there isnt a max lvl, in other words the lvl were you tweak your weapons around is annoying, and a bit of a lazy way of increasing difficulty, wich brings the problem of everyone building for the maximum amount of damage because that's the only way you do dmg at a certain point, and people craving for op powers that also makes you invulnerable since you can only beat invulnerability with invulnerability. Id say cap both health and armor at a point where its hard for any player including veterans, give the needed nerfs for that to be possible (there are frames who are simply too op wich isnt something new since it was stated several times through the forums) give a better look at focus (shadow step is like come on how did you not see how exploitable it is?!) and finally increase the difficulty by simply adding more elite or boss enemy's at a certain point

p.s: we need more bosses! exterminate/ sabotage deception and void in general could have more of them!# GIveVOrHisPension
#EvilYouthUnemployed #VoidRecession

Edited May 25, 2016 by dwolfgheist

[Fifield]

13 hours ago, Dracorya said:

Pretty much unless you coordinate everyone carrying corrosive projections and corrosive/puncture weapons, be prepared for very long dragged out fights.

Oh no, teams having to co-ordinate where they stay longer than they're supposed to in Tower missions.  Whatever next?

Whilst this is a problem for solo players and 3x CP should not be obligatory, this is hardly a major issue.

The primary issue is the boringly-repetitive Care-Bear-easiness of the game.  Nerfing enemy scaling will make it even worse.

I do think it's damage that should be exponential...

And EHP the opposite, comme ci comme ca::

But for the love of God, let us have some challenge before you start nerfing enemies you shouldn't even be fighting.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

6 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

true.

But defending DE, she is getting a rework. Plus, since there are several factions, is it a ad thing to have specialized frames? Frames that don't fair so well against a faction, but fair brilliantly against another? Mag is a good example of this. Indeed too good, because she is an overkill of corpus.

 

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You could argue that the problem isn't specialized frames per se, but the complete imbalance that exist: Frames that excell everywhere and frames that fail everywhere. Which I'd agree, though I can argue Mag isn't the case... The infamous @Noamuth, for example, uses Mag all the time, and if I'm correct, most of her kills are against grineer. Mainly because pull, crush (augmented) and Mag's 3 aren't terrible against grineer...

I'm getting ahead of myself though. Point is: Not agreat example, but I see your point perfectly. Excuse the nitpicking

mh... I think,I'm gonna use Mag next time I do grineer or void survival.

 

Specialized frames are nice, I love playing the Holy Paladin as my main in WoW for example - not melee not caster, a hybrid caster/tanky toon.

But when a player is dropped in Grineer territory to begin their first mission (and with zero mods!), then their existence until much later to even get to Corpus it's hard to defend specialization in Warframe.

The progression curve is missing. Either it's too easy or too difficult to the point of ridiculousness. No smooth gradient from ease to hardcore. A player can even feel on endless when they hit that hard "Please leave the instance now" message, when a SWAT team of annoyances hits you if solo or the team.

Some frames will have advantages over others, but opening the map that's where the balance is needed. Mag has to survive (if she's a player's starting frame, especially!) the journey to even get to trying other frames.

I complain a lot about it because that curve doesn't exist now. A smoother curve, it can be just right.