Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[RealPandemonium]

7 hours ago, Lindsrhyl said:

And that's the problem...

You've tested in the simulacrum

The gap between "this is how things work, look at the test case to confirm what I already know the numbers to be" vs "I cheese for hours in survival, but now I may not be able to do so anymore and your test case does not apply to me" is pretty headache-inducing.  No one is disputing that playing mag is now more involved than "hide in a corner and press 2 every few seconds."  That was the whole point of the changes.  That doesn't mean that you can't still cheese endless missions; you have to change up your strategy and probably put more effort in to do it, which is design as intended.  

[tnccs215]

8 hours ago, Lindsrhyl said:

And that's the problem...

You've tested in the simulacrum were enemies do not spawn by themselves, rooting yourself on place for the duration of two crushes + two magnetizes at 128% duration + a polarize cast. That's 6 + 40 (a bit less if they all died before the second bubble end *) + 1.5 = 47,5 seconds. Ok let's say you could do it with one magnetize, it would be 27,5. And since you proved you can't...

Then you've spent 2x70 + 2x35 + 53 = 263 energy.

 

All that for 5 poor heavies that spawned in a single spot and who will never get backup.
Now, do you get my point when i say that the simulacrum is NOT something you can use when talking about the viability of a frame/skill?

 

 

Still better than what you can do with your dense build.

 

 

Ugh, you know what? I quit. I don't have enough patience to deal with someone who comes here with a mind closed to the point of saying "it s bad because it no longer works with my build", a person that insists on repeating themself, over and over again, ignoring every answer to every problem they put and insisting on them, pretending that problems that can easily be dismissed or fixed through entering a magnetize bubble, through a small change of playstyle, are actually problems worth mentioning-- problems born of their inability to adapt.

I dont have the patience to deal with people that do all that and still have the nerve to say I'm ignoring the problem. There is no problem! The problem is your inability to adapt! Your lack of mind flexibility!

Ad hominem arguments are only fallacies when the problem is not the person. In this case, for example, the problem is you. Literally everyone around here is arguing against you, even people who dispised the rework attempted a shred of sense focusing themselves on Polarize (well, most of them. Some weren't that logical) lack of scalability. But your problem? No, it is your own.

And I don't care enough. I dont care because DE isn't idiotic to the point of listening to your excuse of arguments, when they've been debunked over and over again by so many people in the past day.

So excuse me, but I have so testing to make.

TL;DR:

[TheLexiConArtist]

Confirmed: Critical damage does not carry over into Magnetise DoT.

Testing strategy: Spawn pack of Sensor Regulator units. Using a single-shot weapon with average crit chance, fire upon Magnetised Regulator, noting whether the damage was normal or critical. Observe the DoT numbers on other units. Fire additional shot(s) (until both crit and noncrit have occurred) and continue to observe increases in DoT value. If value does not increase according to Crit Modifier upon critical shot, Magnetise DoT does not inherit from crits.

 

Unmodded Vectis firing upon Unmodded rank 30 Mag's Magnetise on a level 10 Sensor Regulator Eximus caused consistent DoT increases of 7 or 8/tick (fraction rounding) with each shot regardless of whether the shot crit. Expected increase would have been ~15/tick to account for the 2x critical multiplier.

 

Confirmed: Magnetise does not inherit shotgun pellets' accumulated damage into DoT.

Testing strategy: Spawn pack of Sensor Regulator units. Using an unmodded Shotgun, and from a specifically identifiable location/proximity (mitigate falloff affecting outcome), fire once into Magnetise bubble. Observe damage dealt to targeted Regulator, and DoT upon other Regulators. Mod Shotgun with solely additional Multishot (to increase pellet count), repeat the process from the same proximity to the same target and observe any increase in damage dealt to Target and any increase in DoT. If target takes additional damage but DoT is static, Magnetise DoT does not correctly inherit from Shotgun Pellets.

 

Same Regulator Eximi as before (level 10), same unmodded Mag as before (rank30). Unmodded Hek did not kill Regulator in one shot and caused 2/sec DoT. Modding Hek with 4/5 Hell's Chamber (100% multishot) and repeating the exercise caused Regulator to die, but the DoT remained 2/sec on all targets. (Even fractional increases should lead to seeing at least 3 on closer targets after 'doubled' damage).

 

 

Suggested: Magnetise does not in fact obey any multishot? May need to revise Shotgun Test (or may be simply the cause of this as pellets could be considered innate multishot).

Edited June 8, 2016 by EDYinnit
Lowere eximi level, forgot that. Unmodded killing 30s in one or two shots? Idiot.

[tnccs215]

15 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

 

 

snip

 

Very informative, thanks.

Though, I wonder if any form of multishot contributes to the DoT.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Consider Shotgun pellet noncontribution confirmed.

Alternative test: Acquire a Shotgun and Non-Shotgun weapon with comparable one-trigger-pull stats (I used the Mk-1 Strun @ 180 and a Latron Prime with 105% Serration @ 174 damage). Deal damage to Regulator to an equivalent health grade (e.g. 50%) and compare DoTs. Shotgun was pinging 2s when Latron was hitting 11s and 12s.

 

Currently testing various weapon types to assess multishot as a whole.

Hitscan Confirmed non-contributory (Lex)

Shotgun/Pellets Confirmed non-contributory (Hek)

Projectile Confirmed non-contributory (Paris)

Continuous Confirmed non-contributory (Spectra, ~5 ammo spent)

-Special mention: Phage: Multishot non-contributory but operates as Continuous. Difficult to say if actual native output should be higher due to multiple beam conversions, being constrained by typical Shotgun/Multishot issues.

(Others? Please advise.)

 

Continuous weapons definitely have a far greater contribution than they should (or all other weapons not contributing as much as they should?). Sadly, I think we'll see them nerfed from current effectiveness, which will destroy what power play Mag does have right now.

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Lindsrhyl]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

The gap between "this is how things work, look at the test case to confirm what I already know the numbers to be" vs "I cheese for hours in survival, but now I may not be able to do so anymore and your test case does not apply to me" is pretty headache-inducing.  No one is disputing that playing mag is now more involved than "hide in a corner and press 2 every few seconds."  That was the whole point of the changes.  That doesn't mean that you can't still cheese endless missions; you have to change up your strategy and probably put more effort in to do it, which is design as intended.  

Well that's what you an other people who cant get out of their heads that before the rework mag could only use her first skill, or her second (when people finally discovered she had a second skill) and keep telling arbitrarily other people that's their way, cant understand. Dark and warm places sure are nice to inhabit in, but not the best ones when the only thing that enters in and get stuck is one's head.

It has NEVER been about cheesing the game nor playing only corpus missions (and cheesing them). Just so you know, but you could have read it, a smartass who hasn't any actual play record of his sayings nor idea of what nerf means tried to show that spending half a minute on a small squad is the new and only smart-because-adapted way to play mag.

Now if you consider people actually mained that frame for real and not like sam used her 12% total alongside frames with a higher usage (main frame means most used frame, just saying) you must understand that they had to face situations where shield polarize would be of no use (cheese wise, like you guys keep focusing on).
I'll propose you an example, me.

Mag/prime has combined 60% of my playtime and if corpus missions are around 30% of them, i still have 70% of non corpus ones, this includes grineer sorties. At this moment Shield Polarize's only use is to increase your and your team's survivability, what they took us, and i ranted about (and NOT about not being able to destroy corpus).

And even on the void, where there still are shielded enemies, mag could not ultimately "cheese" high level stuff, simply because of nullifiers and ancients. Because let's face it not everybody has assimilated the concept of priority target (said ancients > bombards > heavies)

Now, when you use a shotgun (i'll talk later about other kind of guns), and against armored enemies, with their armor on, the so called "buff" is inexistent. And if you do some minor calculation -1/3 (range) and -1/5 (power) make up for a 0.66*0.8=0.53 utility multiplier. They divided by two its utility, this is a nerf, period. And i ranted on that too. But then again on your day to day combat situation, unless it is a really strong boss you WON'T see any difference. I said that too but some people just prefer to ignore what doesn't go their side.

 

After that, if you complain about mag cheesing the game with her 2, look at the advertisement for Magnetize => a skill, you press it, kill the dude in it and everything dies. You want some cheesing? Here, get some!

 

Then again tncc, i don't get your problem. How can you understand stuff ONLY the way you want and make me say stuff i never said?

And by the way, how can it no longer work with a build? It never even worked like that before in the first place...

The only thing i insist on is your inability to understand that the simulacrum is not a way to prove anything because NOTHING happens like in the simulacrum. You should get that inside you head and begin to, well... adapt?

 

Because yeah, i'm going to tell you something. Under the circumstances that usually happen OUTSIDE of the simulacrum, and never INSIDE, my dense build positively, savagely out dps your self implied genius one.

Well there are two factors that make my build pretty useless against top tier enemies are 1) armor, and only crazy amounts of it and 2) the fact magnetize reacts like a nullifier bubble. Fact is, when you run high level missions with armored enemies your team usually have 3, and sometimes 4 CP, making the armor problem... not a problem anymore. That and changing your weapon for a continuous or bullet based rifle solves the second, allowing you in the smallest time possible to both kill your target, and benefit of the almost immediate explosion that comes. Not to mention you can still both shoot during your 1-2, maybe 3 seconds and flee at the same time, the bubble will explode right away making enemy retaliation something you shouldn't worry about.

That's not something you could have seen in the simulacrum. I myself made sure of that in today's grineer sorties.

 

And if you could tell me where i said entering a magnetize bubble solves problems, i'd like to see it. Until them, please stop the trash talk, it's not deign of that forum or even you, especially as it's pretty much lies, because, you know... the only 'debunk' i saw, was more like an explanation about why it didnt work, and it was posted by @EDYinnit after your post...

Well, i'm just saying is all...

 

Another point is to be specified : mag lost a support role i liked to gain a damage one bringing, if the team is well organized, the cheesing even where it wasn't. In case you people care about that.

 

Edit : multi shot cannot increase the damage (at least the explosion, since apparently phage has some actual influence on DoT) because of the nullifier bubble's mechanic, which ignores multishot (told in the wiki) => it's all about damage per frame (said shot).

Edited June 8, 2016 by Lindsrhyl

[tnccs215]

16 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

 

 

(Others? Please advise.)

mh... How do explosives react? Is the DoT increased the more enemies there are inside the bubble, or is it constant?

[RealPandemonium]

3 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

 

Now, when you use a shotgun (i'll talk later about other kind of guns), and against armored enemies, with their armor on, the so called "buff" is inexistent. And if you do some minor calculation -1/3 (range) and -1/5 (power) make up for a 0.66*0.8=0.53 utility multiplier. They divided by two its utility, this is a nerf, period. And i ranted on that too. But then again on your day to day combat situation, unless it is a really strong boss you WON'T see any difference. I said that too but some people just prefer to ignore what doesn't go their side.

 

After that, if you complain about mag cheesing the game with her 2, look at the advertisement for Magnetize => a skill, you press it, kill the dude in it and everything dies. You want some cheesing? Here, get some!

Shotgun and criticals not being counted as accumulated damage has been reported as a bug.  

I'm not sure what the whole "utility multiplier" part is supposed to mean; could you clarify?

Magnetize is certainly cheesy but we must wait for Damage 3.0 to see if weapon damage will remain excessively high in the future.  

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

mh... How do explosives react? Is the DoT increased the more enemies there are inside the bubble, or is it constant?

I'd honestly be surprised if the explosion counts at all. It may only inherit the projectile impact damage. That would explain all the Tonkor users thinking the DoT is a non-entity.

Testing.

[Lindsrhyl]

Utility is maybe a wrong term, i have to admit it. But i think an example is the best way to explain my thought:

Imagine you're using a shotgun (again ^^), are far from your target, and use vicious spread. Imagine you want to snipe that target from afar (which is usually the distance from where one "snipes"). Then you surely will mind both the size of the now bigger target (able to receive all the pellets) and the damage multiplier, meant to negate (or even reverse) the damage fall off. Utility, is in my mind what makes you want to use this skill, outside of direct damage (here the ability to boost your weapons' damage/accuracy).

[RealPandemonium]

1 minute ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Utility is maybe a wrong term, i have to admit it. But i think an example is the best way to explain my thought:

Imagine you're using a shotgun (again ^^), are far from your target, and use vicious spread. Imagine you want to snipe that target from afar (which is usually the distance from where one "snipes"). Then you surely will mind both the size of the now bigger target (able to receive all the pellets) and the damage multiplier, meant to negate (or even reverse) the damage fall off. Utility, is in my mind what makes you want to use this skill, outside of direct damage (here the ability to boost your weapons' damage/accuracy).

In particular, what do the "-1/3 (range) and -1/5 (power)" parts mean?  

[TheLexiConArtist]

Confirmed explosions do not fuel DoT.

One Level 20 Regulator Eximus vs. unmodded Ogris: 7/tick (target)

Eight Level 20 Regulator Eximi vs. unmodded Ogris (6/8 eximi hit by explosion): 7/tick (target)

Eight Level 20 Regulator Eximi vs. pure crit rate Tonkor (all hit by critsplosion): 3/tick (target, one grenade); 7/tick (target, two grenades).

Eximi vs. Secura Penta (delayed explosion): 3/tick on first grenade, no change after explosion. 7/tick after second grenade, no change after explosion.

 

Edit: Synoid Simulor: 0/tick at any time. (Damage from combinations, DoT from spawned Vortex and damage from manual detonation all left a non-ticking Magnetise)

 

My initial guess was correct. Impact damage only.

Edited June 8, 2016 by EDYinnit
Simulor inclusion.

[Lindsrhyl]

Uh sorry, i didn't even read the question...

Well the numbers here mean the bubble lost 1/3 of its range (4m instead of 6m) and 1/5 of its multiplier (x4 instead of x5) trough its "nerf". It has less "utility".

I hope it answers your question better.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Uh sorry, i didn't even read the question...

Well the numbers here mean the bubble lost 1/3 of its range (4m instead of 6m) and 1/5 of its multiplier (x4 instead of x5) trough its "nerf". It has less "utility".

I hope it answers your question better.

It did gain the DoT damage and scaling explosion.

However, it's not as simple to run experiments on whether the explosion is correctly affected by things I've tested for with the DoT as it was to test the DoT itself. Numbers I've seen from the supremely effective Continuous weapon category suggest that it is, so let's put those aside for your case...

 

It also gained the vortex effect (weak though it is), the ability to have multiple down, lingering in a specific location and cheaper cost, all as additional utility factors over the Bullet Attractor.

Edited June 8, 2016 by EDYinnit

[RealPandemonium]

3 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Uh sorry, i didn't even read the question...

Well the numbers here mean the bubble lost 1/3 of its range (4m instead of 6m) and 1/5 of its multiplier (x4 instead of x5) trough its "nerf". It has less "utility".

I hope it answers your question better.

Damage multiplier is unchanged; (was 2x at base before changes as well.)

Bubble radius was actually nerfed by 60%, though this is offset by the addition of the DoT, ability to have multiple bubbles simultaneously, small CC effect, and the majorly increased explosion damage, as pointed out by EDY in the post above mine.   

[Lindsrhyl]

@RealPandemonium

Are you sure it was decreased by 60%? After a check at the wiki archives it says it used to be 6 meters.The dmg multiplier was actually 2 tho.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Lindsrhyl
Not that it is THAT important now...

[RealPandemonium]

7 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

@RealPandemonium

Are you sure it was decreased by 60%? After a check at the wiki archives it says it used to be 6 meters.The dmg multiplier was actually 2 tho.

I read that it was 12m at base.  I did do some max range shenanigans with 20+m BA bubbles at one point, but it does seem high.  

Edited June 8, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Lindsrhyl]

12 meters was before they diminish it to 6 meters, and yeah it used to be funny, thought i didn't have much time to play with it.

[Tenno29543]

On 6/6/2016 at 2:37 PM, achromos said:

Just... gonna point out that for the 'new player' experience...  Most things on the star-chart STILL die to polarize relatively easily...  Just not High End void/Sortie missions.  Polarize tickles enemies on those.

kill low lvl foes? with what? a 4 formaed mag? yeah.. dont think new players have those pal.. plus, starter frames should take the player all the way from the cryopod to the deepest lvls of the void, like excal

[Hypernaut1]

I guess DE thinks Mag is ok? The only tweak she has received since the rework has been a "nerf" to the lanka/magnetize combo.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

On 6/6/2016 at 5:37 PM, achromos said:

Just... gonna point out that for the 'new player' experience...  Most things on the star-chart STILL die to polarize relatively easily...  Just not High End void/Sortie missions.  Polarize tickles enemies on those.

Not on starter frames without mods and modded weapons. This isn't a FPS game where a n00b can kill a general with his rat-tat-tat assault rifle. You'll need a lot of mods to open the later parts of the solar system -- Erris is one planet for Mag hurts in without shield/health mods (and don't think of using Pull there!).

[achromos]

16 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Not on starter frames without mods and modded weapons. This isn't a FPS game where a n00b can kill a general with his rat-tat-tat assault rifle. You'll need a lot of mods to open the later parts of the solar system -- Erris is one planet for Mag hurts in without shield/health mods (and don't think of using Pull there!).

True, it will be harder without proper mods, but the issue though I think is that DE is planning these Reworks with those mods and modded weapons in mind.

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Just now, achromos said:

True, it will be harder without proper mods, but the issue though I think is that DE is planning these Reworks with those mods and modded weapons in mind.

 

They'll have to start giving away full starter mods to clear the star map, because walk into Erris with starter mods -- won't even finish one mission. That place Mag dies so much, I finally opened it completely using Trinity.

[RealPandemonium]

32 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

They'll have to start giving away full starter mods to clear the star map, because walk into Erris with starter mods -- won't even finish one mission. That place Mag dies so much, I finally opened it completely using Trinity.

Are you talking about starter [damaged] mods, or actual core mods like base damage and elementals?

It's not hard for someone to clear Eris with just the mods that they acquire while reaching Eris, Mag or no.  Mag has robust shields that make her noob-friendly; she's arguably in a  better place than Excalibur in that regard.  

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

28 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Are you talking about starter [damaged] mods, or actual core mods like base damage and elementals?

It's not hard for someone to clear Eris with just the mods that they acquire while reaching Eris, Mag or no.  Mag has robust shields that make her noob-friendly; she's arguably in a  better place than Excalibur in that regard.  

Full starter mods.

You didn't play Mag. Because shields won't matter on Erris. -_-