Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Wolfnrun]

19 minutes ago, Toramaru said:

Go Inaros sir!

Aside from nullifiers he pretty much crushes anything else if you're into melee!

Back to Volt, I still believe!

Ugh, how do you do inaros again? Let me get back to work on that

Also

I still belive as well... THEY may not belive...but we always will...love you volt, maybe another time when they actually care about you... R.I.P 

[(PSN)ShiroPhyla]

On 8/6/2016 at 0:49 PM, Wolfnrun said:

Wow, not sure how that would work...make volt sonic the hedehog?  if only he were much more faster that could be obtainable 

Obtainable faster? What do you mean. Hes in clan dojos still, isnt he?

[Wolfnrun]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)ShiroPhyla said:

Obtainable faster? What do you mean. Hes in clan dojos still, isnt he?

You completely misunderstood what I said, I said nothing about a dojo. You or someone else said to have more CC and or AOE stuff and being fast, to which I replied being faster in terms of speed... 

[Wolfnrun]

Spoiler

 

 

[Cytobel]

I have returned...    ...for the moment.

Alright, so after that hiatus I've had opportunities to experience different games I've enjoyed over the years.  This gave me certain perspective on matters.  I think there are some options here, and I'll try to briefly list them.

First off, I don't believe there is anything at all wrong with deciding an ability is bad for a 'Frame and pulling it entirely.  I figure this may have been part of why DE made such a half-hearted attempt at a rework (hey, it's better than thinking they just hate Volt, right?).  This isn't to say what happened was terrible, or all for the worse, but it seemed to be scraping the bottom of the creativity bucket.  I felt like my old issues with Volt. went unaddressed, and new issues were undeniably outright ignored.

DE, it's okay to decide something isn't relevant to the game now.  We are expecting things to change, so we can't reasonably complain about reworks.  The problem is that some things may never work for the 'Frame, no matter how much you shift them around.

Yes, I "have it in" for Speed, but after some previous posts I also realized how much I now dislike Electric Shield, thanks to Riot Shield.  I've been putting in some serious time with other games, as I said, and Grim Dawn has been teaching me all over again how powerful stuns and confuses or straight debuffs can be.  The more I look at the idea of a "tactical 'Frame", the more I WANT TACTICAL OPTIONS.

For this example, let's say we replaced Speed with Static Flicker (as per an earlier post) and Electric Shield with EMP.  "What's EMP", you ask?  A directional cast that causes a targeted foe to release an AoE pulse.  This pulse strips off buffs (overwriting them with a simple debuff, something like Mesa's weapon jam, plus a long duration stun/knockdown for Machinery/Robitics).  This gives Volt a repositioning tool that adds survival (go-go Static Twin) and lets him stop damage from some foes AND cancel active beneficial effects the enemies have.

The idea is simple: adding in debuffs and ability cancelation is fine, but WE need it if the enemies have it.  You want Volt to be tactical?  How about his 3 has a smallish AoE debuff that removes Eximus effects and pops Nullifier bubbles.  That would be a well spent 75 energy, especially if I can strip 2-3 Nullies in one cast.

This is just one way to make Volt a tactical addition to gunplay, ya know?

A different approach is to start thinking about how to rebuild EVERYTHING EVER from the ground up, so as to make each 'Frame seem equally viable.  This isn't going to happen with enemies, guns, or tilesets as they are now.  Massive AI upgrades, different mechanics for weapons handling, a broader selection of passive traits (instead of just one thing), so that we can find our place in a universe that Warframes were built to handle.

Seriously though, Static Flicker and EMP would make for better options.  Yeah, I would miss the melee swing speed buff, but don't we have Blood Rush/Body Count and Primed Fury in game already?  Yes the ES is good (ignoring how we make electricity do that), but why limit ourselves to an either/or style of play with the go of Speed and the stop of ES?  Instead I say we should have options that let us DO SOMETHING about the battlefield situation.  Proactive tactical thinking, not passive.

I know this will be ignored because I suggested that the Nullies meet their match in an ability.  I consider that fact to be disappointing in the extreme.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Cytobel
I forgot an "l"

[Toramaru]

On 15/08/2016 at 11:05 PM, Wolfnrun said:

  Hide contents

 

 

Hahahahahahahaha, come on! If we start hating Volt who's gonna love the poor bastard?!

2 hours ago, Cytobel said:

I have returned...    ...for the moment.

Alright, so after that hiatus I've had opportunities to experience different games I've enjoyed over the years.  This gave me certain perspective on matters.  I think there are some options here, and I'll try to briefly list them.

First off, I don't believe there is anything at all wrong with deciding an ability is bad for a 'Frame and pulling it entirely.  I figure this may have been part of why DE made such a half-hearted attempt at a rework (hey, it's better than thinking they just hate Volt, right?).  This isn't to say what happened was terrible, or all for the worse, but it seemed to be scraping the bottom of the creativity bucket.  I felt like my old issues with Volt. went unaddressed, and new issues were undeniably outright ignored.

DE, it's okay to decide something isn't relevant to the game now.  We are expecting things to change, so we can't reasonably complain about reworks.  The problem is that some things may never work for the 'Frame, no matter how much you shift them around.

Yes, I "have it in" for Speed, but after some previous posts I also realized how much I now dislike Electric Shield, thanks to Riot Shield.  I've been putting in some serious time with other games, as I said, and Grim Dawn has been teaching me all over again how powerful stuns and confuses or straight debuffs can be.  The more I look at the idea of a "tactical 'Frame", the more I WANT TACTICAL OPTIONS.

For this example, let's say we replaced Speed with Static Flicker (as per an earlier post) and Electric Shield with EMP.  "What's EMP", you ask?  A directional cast that causes a targeted foe to release an AoE pulse.  This pulse strips off buffs (overwriting them with a simple debuff, something like Mesa's weapon jam, plus a long duration stun/knockdown for Machinery/Robitics).  This gives Volt a repositioning tool that adds survival (go-go Static Twin) and lets him stop damage from some foes AND cancel active beneficial effects the enemies have.

The idea is simple: adding in debuffs and ability cancelation is fine, but WE need it if the enemies have it.  You want Volt to be tactical?  How about his 3 has a smallish AoE debuff that removes Eximus effects and pops Nullifier bubbles.  That would be a well spent 75 energy, especially if I can strip 2-3 Nullies in one cast.

This is just one way to make Volt a tactical addition to gunplay, ya know?

A different approach is to start thinking about how to rebuild EVERYTHING EVER from the ground up, so as to make each 'Frame seem equally viable.  This isn't going to happen with enemies, guns, or tilesets as they are now.  Massive AI upgrades, different mechanics for weapons handling, a broader selection of passive traits (instead of just one thing), so that we can find our place in a universe that Warframes were built to handle.

Seriously though, Static Flicker and EMP would make for better options.  Yeah, I would miss the melee swing speed buff, but don't we have Blood Rush/Body Count and Primed Fury in game already?  Yes the ES is good (ignoring how we make electricity do that), but why limit ourselves to an either/or style of play with the go of Speed and the stop of ES?  Instead I say we should have options that let us DO SOMETHING about the battlefield situation.  Proactive tactical thinking, not passive.

I know this will be ignored because I suggested that the Nullies meet their match in an ability.  I consider that fact to be disappointing in the extreme.

Sir, watch the pessimism! DE is working in several updates over the last 2 months, and have already signaled on some changes to his kit. We have our suggestions here, but let's see how that goes... If it goes TERRIBAD again, just like the rework, we can complain again. The only thing I don't get is how the hell people liked this rework...

And we can always choose another Frame. I did, just can't play Volt after what was done.

 

[Wolfnrun]

1 minute ago, Toramaru said:

The only thing I don't get is how the hell people liked this rework...

I think simple people who still see volt as a starter and could care less about any other changes, I still want something as comprehensive as mags re-work, ugh magnatize is amazing! Why can't volt be that goood!  I REALLY WANT FOR ANYTHING BESDIES THE ABILITES WE HAVE NOW. Let's just wait...again 

[Cytobel]

Some people just frikkin love the Str/Dur Speed build, which basically got kinda better, given better Electric Shields (because only Leslie Nelson reloaded melee weapons).

As to pessimism, shaddup.  Seriously, it's part of my system.  I'm pessimistic, but the perversity of the world tends towards the maximum, so the good outcome occurs simply to spite me.

Finagle's corollary times pessimistic outlooks equals PROFIT!!!

[Wolfnrun]

8 hours ago, Toramaru said:

Hahahahahahahaha, come on! If we start hating Volt who's gonna love the poor bastard?!

Alrighty, you'r right! I put that here because as much of a comedian as she is, she does make a few good points

- He uses speed to get out of combat, because he isnt very good at it...

-An ES that dissapears and is less affective then a grineer lancers 

-A boring discharge which is a dull variant of shock 

I REALLY want for a real volt rework! get rid of speed and ES and put something else in it's place! that is what a real re-work is all about! EXPERIMENTING!!!

Untill volt actually get's the credit he deserves, he is still a witch...As AGGP would say... 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Wolfnrun

[RealPandemonium]

5 hours ago, Wolfnrun said:

I think simple people who still see volt as a starter and could care less about any other changes, I still want something as comprehensive as mags re-work, ugh magnatize is amazing! Why can't volt be that goood!  I REALLY WANT FOR ANYTHING BESDIES THE ABILITES WE HAVE NOW. Let's just wait...again 

Overload damage buff, bigger Shields that we can pick up, re-castable Speed that also buffs weapon swap, are all nice changes.

It sounds more and more like you want a different frame entirely, rather than a Volt revision.  

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Overload damage buff, bigger Shields that we can pick up, re-castable Speed that also buffs weapon swap, are all nice changes.

It sounds more and more like you want a different frame entirely, rather than a Volt revision.  

Damage buff means nothing, it's dot instead of instant, and you generally kill everything before it hits the "damage cap". You can sit and wait, but hardly anything dies or even suffers meaningful damage, nothing a gun or melee weapon can't accomplish without a uselessly long ground limited casting animation. Its just good for stunning things, that's all discharge does.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

btw can anyone of you explain the following to me maybe?

On 19.8.2016 at 7:32 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Fixed Volt’s Discharge not applying diminishing returns to duration.

i understand the words but i honest to god don't understand the meaning of this...

i can't say i noticed much of a difference, anyway.

[Toramaru]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Overload damage buff, bigger Shields that we can pick up, re-castable Speed that also buffs weapon swap, are all nice changes.

It sounds more and more like you want a different frame entirely, rather than a Volt revision.  

Discharge works wonders on low levels, but once you go places creeps have more than 50k life, the inbuilt mechanic of damage cap renders discharge useless for Str builds. Ok, you can refrain from building Str, but then you're gonna be a discharge only Volt.

Shields were and still are completely useless on any type of build tbh. You get much more DPS building Str/Efficiency now that Speed got it's due recastability. and the Riot version is prohibitive. The only reason I'd use shield is to revive fallen Frames, which I don't do much.

Speed got a recast function. THAT'S IT... nothing else that meaningful, as the reload speed is negligible on melee (obviously a jk, but since Speed Volt = Melee Volt...).

Shock is simply lacking. The skill itself somewhat... But as Electricity works in-game and as you can't mod stun duration it is quite frustrating.

I saw someone saying that Speed buff to ASPD could be removed considering mod builds on weapons, but they are flat out ignoring status builds, aside from the fact that the more speed you have, more dmg you do, and that makes Volt excel in melee combat, along with the mods.

[voltocitygel]

7 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Its just good for stunning things, that's all discharge does.

Slight DoT and a nice stun. Two things volts previous kit didn't have. (Besides shock for a cheap quick stun) I'm certainly not complaining: casting discharge in a room full of 100+ level enemies gives you a solid 30 seconds of stun in a large area, even if you don't mod completely for duration. With capacitance, about the same number of (grineer) enemies, my squad and I reach max over shields in seconds, and typically regen the over shields faster than any other enemies can damage them. 

Volt is no longer a "press 4 to wipe out half the map" frame. He's more tactical. 

 

Sure, I could complain about riot shields crazy limitations some more, or talk about how speed is only good for running away or melee builds, but I'm not. Volt is in a pretty healthy place. It could be far worse. As is, they've reworked his previous skills. That's what reworks do, in my experience of warframe. They might change how something works, but the original idea, concept, or feel is still there. 

Some suggestions for replacements or changes are cool, but probably better suited to a different, new warframe. And why not? We have Nezha as the second fire themed warframe. Why not make another electric, toxin, and cold based warframes as well, with different secondary inspirations, play styles, and stats?

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1 minute ago, voltocitygel said:

Slight DoT and a nice stun. Two things volts previous kit didn't have. (Besides shock for a cheap quick stun) I'm certainly not complaining: casting discharge in a room full of 100+ level enemies gives you a solid 30 seconds of stun in a large area, even if you don't mod completely for duration. With capacitance, about the same number of (grineer) enemies, my squad and I reach max over shields in seconds, and typically regen the over shields faster than any other enemies can damage them. 

Volt is no longer a "press 4 to wipe out half the map" frame. He's more tactical. 

 

Sure, I could complain about riot shields crazy limitations some more, or talk about how speed is only good for running away or melee builds, but I'm not. Volt is in a pretty healthy place. It could be far worse. As is, they've reworked his previous skills. That's what reworks do, in my experience of warframe. They might change how something works, but the original idea, concept, or feel is still there. 

Some suggestions for replacements or changes are cool, but probably better suited to a different, new warframe. And why not? We have Nezha as the second fire themed warframe. Why not make another electric, toxin, and cold based warframes as well, with different secondary inspirations, play styles, and stats?

Volt is a "press 4 to sit and watch enemies twitch while you no longer put effort into the game" frame. 

I'm sorry, I had to...

Damage abilities are not wrong, it's warframes over reliance on everything being Aoe.

Again, I just wish the community would be consistent, complaining non stop about non line of sight cc. Or it could be something I'm missing. Yeah it's not at the same range as prism, but is a smaller range really all it takes to make it feel like some brand new awesome thing we've never seen in this game?

let me jump while casting discharge, and I will ignore everything else.

I'll ignore the passive that does nothing for my play style.

I will ignore the pick up sheild that is completely worthless.

I will ignore the cc stun I don't care for.

And just play Volt the same way I always did. The fact that discharge can't be air cast, because DE came up with a special way they wanted it to spread and didn't want to make even one single concession, not even to change the animation, is what really really ruins it for me.

I could deal with the ground cast of it was even completely 50% necessary.

but I wasn't there and have no concrete proof, and I'm not a dev, so anything I say sounds like I'm just wrongly accusing them...

The reasons discharge has a health cap and ground cast limit is the same reason Souls of the dead has a 7 soul limit and health decay, because they felt like it...but again tin foil theories and accusations..

Ill find my way to the exit 

[RealPandemonium]

I find is amusing that people call a 4k base damage power that can deal its damage in as few as 3 seconds "a slight DoT"

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

16 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

I find is amusing that people call a 4k base damage power that can deal its damage in as few as 3 seconds "a slight DoT"

I pull that with my pistol. Marelok and it kills stuff in aoe unneccesarily for no ammo cost or energy in the same levels that volts discharge kills stuff. Because all those enemies share that damage, it's not 4k per enemy. Stupid overpowered syndicates...

It's not really even that 4k damage number your talking about going up against grineer. Corpus don't make anything better with nullifier spam ( bite me). Infested And corrupted don't warrant an argument.

Volt has shock, speed, and sheild. Good enough abilities. And then discharge just ruins it with everything it's supposed to be trying to achieve.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[RealPandemonium]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I pull that with my pistol. Marelok and it kills stuff in aoe unneccesarily for no ammo cost or energy in the same levels that volts discharge kills stuff. Because all those enemies share that damage, it's not 4k per enemy. Stupid overpowered sulyndicates...

It's not really even that 4k damage number your talking about going up against grineer. Corpus don't make anything better with nullifier spam ( bite me). Infested And corrupted don't warrant an argument.

Volt has shock, speed, and sheild. Good enough abilities. And then discharge just ruins it with everything it's supposed to be trying to achieve.

 

 

Damage is not shared; the cap is on a per-coil basis and all enemies in range become coils.

Your pistol does not deal damage in a 20-50 meter AOE and it doesn't stun enemies.

4000 base is better than almost every other radial nuke available.  

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1)Are you sure about that? I'll take that hit...oh, I'm talking about when new enemies come into contact with it. Fail.

2)my vaykor marelok kills everything in a pretty wide radius. I don't know how far 20 meters is, but if it's not that, then trinities blessing should still be covering a whole map at 50 meters. And it's free. No energy or ammo spent. When that damage falls off, discharge was already failing. Maybe your build is better. I don't rely on the stun in my build because I don't care. The stun is stupid. The damage is not there. I'll concede on that point as well.

3)4000 base.....Radial nuke....Best????...I feel like Equinox and Ash perform ten times better? Maybe? Just...maybe?

Cus they have slash damage, and we have electricity.

Saryns still better. And Frost. They strip armor-of you count miasma procs as actual corrosive damage, I don't know that math.

 

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

1)Are you sure about that? I'll take that hit...oh, I'm talking about when new enemies come into contact with it. Fail.

2)my vaykor marelok kills everything in a pretty wide radius. I don't know how far 20 meters is, but if it's not that, then trinities blessing should still be covering a whole map at 50 meters. And it's free. No energy or ammo spent. When that damage falls off, discharge was already failing. Maybe your build is better. I don't rely on the stun in my build because I don't care. The stun is stupid. The damage is not there. I'll concede on that point as well.

3)4000 base.....Radial nuke....Best????...I feel like Equinox and Ash perform ten times better? Maybe? Just...maybe?

Cus they have slash damage, and we have electricity.

Saryns still better. And Frost. They strip armor-of you count miasma procs as actual corrosive damage, I don't know that math.

 

A pistol cant hit every enemy in a radius simultaneously, and syndicate procs have both a cooldown and a potentially long time-to-proc, alongside a fixed (though generous) range.

Maim's base damage is only 150 plus Slash DoT; you must accumulate kills to deal serious damage with it.  

Blade Storm does 2000 damage at base plus Slash DoT, but it takes some time to hit all of its [capped at 18] targets and locks you out of other actions while it does this.  BS is massively overtuned in general, though, making it a poor comparison in a balance/design discussion.  

Electric damage is only bad against Alloy armor, whereas Slash is bad against both types of armor.

Miasma is stronger when fully buffed (350 * (4 * duration modifier) * 3 * 2[Viral proc effectively doubles damage] = 8400 damage assuming your duration is 100%.  Miasma also must be comboed for full strength (ranging from trivial with some loadouts, to energy-intensive if you combo 3 powers every time) and has a smaller radius.  Miasma never inflicts Corrosive procs to living targets; it only procs on enemies that have died to it, in order to induce the Corrosive death effect on their corpses.  Corrosive damage is good against Ferrite, though.  

Avalanche can come ahead against Grineer due to the armor reduction effect and generally more advantageous damage type, but its base damage is less than half of Discharge's and it has less range.

 Avalanche is another overloaded power, offering permaCC, armor shred, and potentially high direct damage (due to pretty high base damage and overlapping death explosions,) all in one package.  Consider that Frost already has Snow Globe, oodles of CC on all powers, and fantastic base stats.  Overkill.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

9 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

A pistol cant hit every enemy in a radius simultaneously, and syndicate procs have both a cooldown and a potentially long time-to-proc, alongside a fixed (though generous) range.

Maim's base damage is only 150 plus Slash DoT; you must accumulate kills to deal serious damage with it.  

Blade Storm does 2000 damage at base plus Slash DoT, but it takes some time to hit all of its [capped at 18] targets and locks you out of other actions while it does this.  BS is massively overtuned in general, though, making it a poor comparison in a balance/design discussion.  

Electric damage is only bad against Alloy armor, whereas Slash is bad against both types of armor.

Miasma is stronger when fully buffed (350 * (4 * duration modifier) * 3 * 2[Viral proc effectively doubles damage] = 8400 damage assuming your duration is 100%.  Miasma also must be comboed for full strength (ranging from trivial with some loadouts, to energy-intensive if you combo 3 powers every time) and has a smaller radius.  Miasma never inflicts Corrosive procs to living targets; it only procs on enemies that have died to it, in order to induce the Corrosive death effect on their corpses.  Corrosive damage is good against Ferrite, though.  

Avalanche can come ahead against Grineer due to the armor reduction effect and generally more advantageous damage type, but its base damage is less than half of Discharge's and it has less range.

 Avalanche is another overloaded power, offering permaCC, armor shred, and potentially high direct damage (due to pretty high base damage and overlapping death explosions,) all in one package.  Consider that Frost already has Snow Globe, oodles of CC on all powers, and fantastic base stats.  Overkill.

You know iv talking about the syndicate proc on my marelok, correct? I mean, I like to think I'm pretty quick with the trigger... (i have other syndie weapons as well)

It's easy to accumulate kills, especially in a team setting

Even if it's a poor comparison, bladestorm is still a radial nuke

Slash might be bad, but people swear by it for some reason. And if you build your cheese to suit (4 corrosive projections)...

---real life interrupts my argument. (Seems Ash can't be used...I guess ignore this part)

I'll be back

*Back*

Even if Frost is "overkill", he is an extremely valid bar to set all my hopes for every rework on. That is what I feel, because I do not believe favouritism is correct (tinfoilism). And Saryn reaches high damage through synergy, why not Volt? I honestly swear I have never seen anything happen between shock and discharge. The tesla coil still looks the same, enemy still dances the same, nothing special happens.

There's no reason Volt should not have gotten the best of both of these reworks. There are people who think he did, and people who think he didn't.

Edited August 21, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edited-i dont think he did

[Cytobel]

Let's leave Bladestorm out of this, because BS is BS and sool to recieve a change.

Before the "nuke" aspect of Discharge leaves the thread again, I have to point out that the term isn't correct.  It's not more powerful than many other abilities that "nuke" (and those are appearantly not powerful nukes), just because it's Electricity, which in Warframe is like beating something to death with a Nerf bat.  Totally doable, but it's going to take time.  The way that Corpus shields function against it and the way that Ferrite and Alloy reduce it, the damage only seems to face full efficacy against Infested.  I'm of mixed emotions there (anyone else remember Infested having electrical resist?).

So I hope Damage 3.0 comes out, shifting Electricity to have a small partial bypass to armor and shields before we see reworks.  Seriously, Grineer have metal limbs or implants hard-wired to their nervous systems.  I don't CARE that Ferrite or Alloy armor can reduce electrical damage, cybernetics void that arguement entirely.  Circuit breakers?  I'd say losing a limb because it just FRIED is a good 20% of your max HP gone right there, plus a movement/damage debuff.  Worse for them, some Grineer have no natural limbs left.  I want to see an enemy like that laying on the ground impotently with all of it's limbs cooking.....

The shield bypass thing is due to how capacitors actually function, coupled with the fact that only Ospreys aren't grounded (woe betide anything that comes too close to an Osprey that's overcharged...).  I just want to feel like Electricity isn't GOOD damage against non-mechanical enemies, but isn't BAD damage against all but Rollers, Latchers, and those blimpy boomboxes the Grineer have.  The Corpus shields make their Robotics actually moderately strong against Electricity.  Stupid Shield Ospreys.....

I'm a convert to the idea that Electric Shield could be replaced, and I'm advocating against Speed because of what it's done to Volt, rather than FOR Volt.  Even so, I want a new paradigm for Damage to happen first.  I can't help but feel that a massive rework to the damage system, a change to enemy types and tactics (and AI), and a shift in weapons handling will need to happen before actually completing Volt's rework will be a viable choice.

That left a bad taste in my mouth, but there it is...

Edited August 21, 2016 by Cytobel

[Wolfnrun]

On 8/21/2016 at 2:19 PM, Cytobel said:

So I hope Damage 3.0 comes out, shifting Electricity to have a small partial bypass to armor and shields before we see reworks.  Seriously, Grineer have metal limbs or implants hard-wired to their nervous systems

I wanna see elecric procs changed by a long shot, since volt can easily gurantee an electric proc with shock and kind-of with dicharge (If that thing ever changes which I think it should) Would change thing's and the way we see volt

[EnderDDT]

First, I'm just going to come right out and say it: I think the Devs may have abandoned us here. After the initial update we got the speed changes (which were important to the super high level players, who only use that one move), we got the Riot Shield bash (which seemed to come INSTEAD of the needed reduction of penalties on use, especially the insately high energy costs), the Riot Shield's priority was messed with (though it still needs tweaking), and we got some silent fixes for the spread mechanic on his Discharge (which was expected, since it started out so buggy in many situations). Correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from this we have gotten nothing else fixed. Nothing else seems to even be acknowledged that it might need fixed. There is a chance that DE has simply been swamped with the other many updates and that, now that Titania is out, they will be able to devote some more time back to Volt; but that is not exactly proven at this point (especially since we do know of other things that are on the horizon, such as the twin queens).

There are only about a dozen of us who have been here since the beginning, and I salute your dedication. There are still new people showing up somewhat regularly, and I do thank each and every one of you for your feedback. I think it is time to face the facts, three months later, that we are most likely being ignored. It has been two months since any changes have been made (the last being the Riot Shield bash and Speed opt-out changes). I would like to hope that things are about to be in the works, as there are less things definitely on the horizon now, but I'm not holding my breath.

----------------------------------------------------

Let me get right to the most major point that can be made. We all seem to agree that there are 3 main things that absolutely need to be fixed, even if we don't all agree on how to fix them. There are many other nice things that would be good to see changed but the most major issues that have been around since the beginning still need dealt with. These are them, in order of importance and how often they are constantly brought up.

1. Riot Shield has too many restrictions, most notably being an insane cost of use.

2. Discharge's stun is unreliable and unduly dangerous to use.

3. Volt and Volt Prime are numerically weaker than their counterparts and need more mods than they have slots to be on par.

The quick explanation of 1: The cost is so high that the ONLY way to use it requires dedicating a maxed Zenirik drain for the sole purpose of sustaining his shield, and other mods for duration, AND maxed efficiency. THIS IS BROKEN!!! The slow and energy on movement works directly against his speed. The weapon restriction seems to be insult to injury, especially after all the rest.

The quick explanation of 2: The stun basically never lasts the full duration unless it is against highly armored targets, in which case it does basically no damage. When it doesn't last the duration ends haphazardly, dropping enemies out one at a time making it extremely unleiable as a CC source. Meanwhile the long cast animation and the need to be in the middle of enemies for best use is a major problem against late-game enemies who are too much for Volt's extremely low defenses. The damage is sadly not late game viable enough for it to even be a factor in the discussion about stun duration (especially with the unreliability and slow speed of application that it has).

The quick explanation of 3: Volt and Volt Prime's base stats and ability stats are numerically weak. He is squishy and his abilities, which should make up for this, instead require so much modding to reach basic standards that he simply doesn't have enough space. This complaint comes in many forms (make his abilities stronger, make his base stats stronger, make his energy type better), but they all come down to this base numerical weakness.

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The rest of the common complaints and arguments against those complaints come down to a disagreement about expectations and hopes for Volt within this game environment. A lot of people see things and think that they are "good enough", or that to want more is to go beyond certain "expectations" about what will or should be possible. Other people hope for more or think that the first group is expecting too little because they aren't considering what other frames may be capable of doing. If we at least understand the reasons why so many disagree on these points than perhaps we can come to more of an agreement or at least have more tolerance for why people hold the other view as us.

Volt's passive is, simply put, not relevant by late game or, arguably even by mid game. The main expectation that people seem to have is that passives are not necessarily supposed to be game-changing, but the hope is that the passive may be an interesting part of gameplay through out all levels of use. Some want to replace it or fix it to be stronger in one of multiple ways, but because of the overarching expectation it is not brought up as much. The question is, should we have such low expectations for a passive? That is a question that I can't answer.

Volt's Shock looses most of it's importance by late game as well. The stun duration is sad, the damage is not good, and the limit on targets hit really really hurts it in crowds. On the upside it is cheep and a way to do something while reloading. The expectation by many seems to be that #1 skills are all but trash in "real fights" and the fact that it has the limited utility that it does makes it "good". At some point in Warframe's history that may have been true, but at this point in the game's development the majority of #1 skills actually retain real viability throughout the entire life of the game. And yet, the expectation remains. For those who believe that Volt's shock is really fine, compare it to Mag's Pull or Oberon's Smite and try to figure out what Shock should be capable of comparatively. Options for fixing this have ranged from numerical changes (including removing the chain limit from the initial hit in order to let it hit all enemies around the initial target) all the way to replacing it with a completely new ability. The base power is too low for Power Strength to fix things, increasing range is a lost cause since his chain limits keep him from hitting more targets, duration does nothing; and so the ability is essentially unmodable (apart from efficiency).

Volt's speed, at base in terms of movement speed, is really sad. With two mods any and all other frames with a 1.0 movement speed can have nearly the same movement increase as the ability gives. Those with a 1.15 can have the same speed with only one mod. Those other frames who use one mod to do the same have that speed boost permanently, without any expenditure of energy. This extremely low starting speed boost, and what it means when power strength is added, is why so many people are asking for a boost in volt's base movement speed. For all non-mele volts, the expectation/hope is that the use of an ability that requires constant reapplication and a constant influx of energy should be better than what a single mod can do. There is further the expectation of Volt as a "speedy little frame", something that seems outpaced by the requirements to keep using his ability to keep that title. The counter expectation is that his ability still has uses where it does well (for mele volt) and has always been that way, so there is no real problem. All in all, it simply points back to the #3 main issue, He needs more mods to keep up with other Warframes than he has slots.

Furthermore the duration on Speed is one of the shortest of all the duration based activated abilities in the game. It ties with Loki's invisibility and is only slightly longer than Ash's Smoke screen, both of which allows the other frames to evade all damage. It also ties with Trinity's Blessing which gives up to 75% Damage Resistance to the entire team and a heal. Volt's ability is no where near on par with those, especially since movement speed is not a significantly power enhancing stat (even if it is fun). The closest comparison is in Valkyr's Warcry which costs 50% more, but lasts 50% longer, has 3 effects instead of 2, the 2 effects that are not common of both abilities are easily as or more powerful than Volt's movement speed buff, and has an augment that can let it last forever on one casting. This complaint has been somewhat answered by the ability being now recastable (somewhat argued as being rather a compensation for the newly added slow activation of the ability), but understanding why people see the duration as being less than they might rightly expect can help to ease a lot of tension. Seriously, it requires a full Primed Continuity to just make up for that lost 5 seconds, whereas starting with that 5 seconds already there would allow the single primed continuity to bring the duration up to about 24 seconds. The soluton to this short duration? More mods... And we again return to our #3 issue.

Volt's shield, for all it's good things, didn't fix his defense problem for such a mobile frame. The solution people came up with? Spam them. Trying to make an airtight perimiter of them was half the reason for the spam, but it was the only solution he had (especially since so much of his kit tries to push him toward the front line of the group). For those people wondering why the shield limit was complained about, and is even still mentioned now: this is it. His defense is still low, but spamming shields means that older shields (such as ones you left to guard the defense target or your allies) may suddenly disappear. This is one of those times when there are no hopes, only divergent expectations. Some people would say "what do you even need more than 4 or 6 shields for anyway?" and would expect that a limit is not unduly restricting. Without understanding the shield-spammy playstyle of a mobile "shield volt" people just don't understand how the change breaks the longstanding expectations of how people want and have found joy in playing. The change to 6 still hurt, but was at least enough that shields could be used for incidental purposes (such as reviving a teammate) without unavoidably dropping protection somewhere else.

People expect, rightly so, that a frame can survive doing what they are built to do. Volt has exactly 1 ability that is not centered on himself (at mele range), so he has a real need to be toward the front of the group where the action is. Unfortunately he lacks the defense to be there safely. This goes back to the #3 issue again. What we got instead was the Riot Shield. All in all, it wasn't a bad idea. When we heard about it there was the expectation that this would do it's job to allow low level players to survive with the frame. There was even the hope that it would give Volt more build options. The problem was the restrictions and cost. What actually happened was that the build required to make the Riot Shield work was even MORE restricting than what he had needed before with "shield-spam volt" and completely unusable by new players. I emplore anyone who believes that the cost is acceptable to try using the ability without corrupted mods and without Zenerik, even just "without Zererik" would probably be enough. Or lets put it in another way: Ivara's Prowl makes her functionally immune to damage and gives her a headshot bonus and lets her steal but it only costs either 1 or a flat 3 energy per second depending on movement (base). Volt's Riot Shield costs 5 energy per second, plus more energy for movement, PLUS the initial casting cost. Yes, these are actual numbers, his current state is LITERALLY that bad. And what of the other restrictions? Painful in their own ways that will need to be delt with, but still nothing compared with the cost that makes the ability completely unusable. This is all #1 issues, so hopefully I don't need to say much more. All we expect or hope for here is a usable ability. And trying to just use more and more mods to fix all these problems leads to another familiar problem: Not enough mods or slots. Aaaand #3, again.

Finally we come to his Discharge. Lets start by clearing this up. It isn't a "freeze things three rooms away" ability, the ability pathing makes that basically impossible. In fact, if enemies are at multiple levels in a room there is a good chance they are far enough away to be immune. The duration may be good against grineer, but against basically anyone else the duration is less than Frost's #4 Avalanche. Frost's avalanche can have the duration increased, but the limit on Discharge is damage cap induced and so cannot be easily increased. And the lack of an instant application and the long casting time is not something that frost has to deal with either. Furthermore the ground locking, in light of all that, should be simply ignored. Try going against Lv40 non-Grineer (and non-Corrupted-Grineer) enemies and see what happens. People complained about Mag's polarize (then a #2 ability) only being good against one faction, now Volt has an ultimate (#4 ability) that is nearly as restricted but has far more downsides to use and isn't as one-shottingly powerful. If Discharge is to be a CC ability, than it needs to be reliable; but either way it absolutely needs to be useful against all factions at all levels. Still, in all but a few circumstances that were so specific as to make the ability nearly unviable for regular use, it is more powerful than his old #4; so many people are now pointing out that it is better and not understanding why others are still upset. Simply put, the ability went from "bad in all but a few specific circumstances VS one specific faction" to "bad in all but a few different and somewhat less specific circumstances VS one different specific faction"; understandably this is neither what players hoped nor expected to be the end result. Again, the abilitiy's damage can't compare with what weapons can do, so it can't work well as a straight damage ability to replace weapons.

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TL/DR:

1. Riot Shield has too many restrictions, most notably being an insane cost of use.

2. Discharge's stun is unreliable and unduly dangerous to use.

3. Volt and Volt Prime are numerically weaker than their counterparts and need more mods than they have slots to be on par.

I don't know if anyone at DE is still paying attention, but if so please know that these three things absolutely need fixing. Pretty much EVERYONE agrees with these three issues. The first one isn't even all that hard to fix. There are some other things that can use some tweaking as part or in addition to those three, but those three really are the consensus of the vast majority of people here.

[Wolfnrun]

19 minutes ago, EnderDDT said:

First, I'm just going to come right out and say it: I think the Devs may have abandoned us here. After the initial update we got the speed changes (which were important to the super high level players, who only use that one move), we got the Riot Shield bash (which seemed to come INSTEAD of the needed reduction of penalties on use, especially the insately high energy costs), the Riot Shield's priority was messed with (though it still needs tweaking), and we got some silent fixes for the spread mechanic on his Discharge (which was expected, since it started out so buggy in many situations). Correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from this we have gotten nothing else fixed. Nothing else seems to even be acknowledged that it might need fixed. There is a chance that DE has simply been swamped with the other many updates and that, now that Titania is out, they will be able to devote some more time back to Volt; but that is not exactly proven at this point (especially since we do know of other things that are on the horizon, such as the twin queens).

There are only about a dozen of us who have been here since the beginning, and I salute your dedication. There are still new people showing up somewhat regularly, and I do thank each and every one of you for your feedback. I think it is time to face the facts, three months later, that we are most likely being ignored. It has been two months since any changes have been made (the last being the Riot Shield bash and Speed opt-out changes). I would like to hope that things are about to be in the works, as there are less things definitely on the horizon now, but I'm not holding my breath.

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Let me get right to the most major point that can be made. We all seem to agree that there are 3 main things that absolutely need to be fixed, even if we don't all agree on how to fix them. There are many other nice things that would be good to see changed but the most major issues that have been around since the beginning still need dealt with. These are them, in order of importance and how often they are constantly brought up.

1. Riot Shield has too many restrictions, most notably being an insane cost of use.

2. Discharge's stun is unreliable and unduly dangerous to use.

3. Volt and Volt Prime are numerically weaker than their counterparts and need more mods than they have slots to be on par.

The quick explanation of 1: The cost is so high that the ONLY way to use it requires dedicating a maxed Zenirik drain for the sole purpose of sustaining his shield, and other mods for duration, AND maxed efficiency. THIS IS BROKEN!!! The slow and energy on movement works directly against his speed. The weapon restriction seems to be insult to injury, especially after all the rest.

The quick explanation of 2: The stun basically never lasts the full duration unless it is against highly armored targets, in which case it does basically no damage. When it doesn't last the duration ends haphazardly, dropping enemies out one at a time making it extremely unleiable as a CC source. Meanwhile the long cast animation and the need to be in the middle of enemies for best use is a major problem against late-game enemies who are too much for Volt's extremely low defenses. The damage is sadly not late game viable enough for it to even be a factor in the discussion about stun duration (especially with the unreliability and slow speed of application that it has).

The quick explanation of 3: Volt and Volt Prime's base stats and ability stats are numerically weak. He is squishy and his abilities, which should make up for this, instead require so much modding to reach basic standards that he simply doesn't have enough space. This complaint comes in many forms (make his abilities stronger, make his base stats stronger, make his energy type better), but they all come down to this base numerical weakness.

---------------------------------------------------

The rest of the common complaints and arguments against those complaints come down to a disagreement about expectations and hopes for Volt within this game environment. A lot of people see things and think that they are "good enough", or that to want more is to go beyond certain "expectations" about what will or should be possible. Other people hope for more or think that the first group is expecting too little because they aren't considering what other frames may be capable of doing. If we at least understand the reasons why so many disagree on these points than perhaps we can come to more of an agreement or at least have more tolerance for why people hold the other view as us.

Volt's passive is, simply put, not relevant by late game or, arguably even by mid game. The main expectation that people seem to have is that passives are not necessarily supposed to be game-changing, but the hope is that the passive may be an interesting part of gameplay through out all levels of use. Some want to replace it or fix it to be stronger in one of multiple ways, but because of the overarching expectation it is not brought up as much. The question is, should we have such low expectations for a passive? That is a question that I can't answer.

Volt's Shock looses most of it's importance by late game as well. The stun duration is sad, the damage is not good, and the limit on targets hit really really hurts it in crowds. On the upside it is cheep and a way to do something while reloading. The expectation by many seems to be that #1 skills are all but trash in "real fights" and the fact that it has the limited utility that it does makes it "good". At some point in Warframe's history that may have been true, but at this point in the game's development the majority of #1 skills actually retain real viability throughout the entire life of the game. And yet, the expectation remains. For those who believe that Volt's shock is really fine, compare it to Mag's Pull or Oberon's Smite and try to figure out what Shock should be capable of comparatively. Options for fixing this have ranged from numerical changes (including removing the chain limit from the initial hit in order to let it hit all enemies around the initial target) all the way to replacing it with a completely new ability. The base power is too low for Power Strength to fix things, increasing range is a lost cause since his chain limits keep him from hitting more targets, duration does nothing; and so the ability is essentially unmodable (apart from efficiency).

Volt's speed, at base in terms of movement speed, is really sad. With two mods any and all other frames with a 1.0 movement speed can have nearly the same movement increase as the ability gives. Those with a 1.15 can have the same speed with only one mod. Those other frames who use one mod to do the same have that speed boost permanently, without any expenditure of energy. This extremely low starting speed boost, and what it means when power strength is added, is why so many people are asking for a boost in volt's base movement speed. For all non-mele volts, the expectation/hope is that the use of an ability that requires constant reapplication and a constant influx of energy should be better than what a single mod can do. There is further the expectation of Volt as a "speedy little frame", something that seems outpaced by the requirements to keep using his ability to keep that title. The counter expectation is that his ability still has uses where it does well (for mele volt) and has always been that way, so there is no real problem. All in all, it simply points back to the #3 main issue, He needs more mods to keep up with other Warframes than he has slots.

Furthermore the duration on Speed is one of the shortest of all the duration based activated abilities in the game. It ties with Loki's invisibility and is only slightly longer than Ash's Smoke screen, both of which allows the other frames to evade all damage. It also ties with Trinity's Blessing which gives up to 75% Damage Resistance to the entire team and a heal. Volt's ability is no where near on par with those, especially since movement speed is not a significantly power enhancing stat (even if it is fun). The closest comparison is in Valkyr's Warcry which costs 50% more, but lasts 50% longer, has 3 effects instead of 2, the 2 effects that are not common of both abilities are easily as or more powerful than Volt's movement speed buff, and has an augment that can let it last forever on one casting. This complaint has been somewhat answered by the ability being now recastable (somewhat argued as being rather a compensation for the newly added slow activation of the ability), but understanding why people see the duration as being less than they might rightly expect can help to ease a lot of tension. Seriously, it requires a full Primed Continuity to just make up for that lost 5 seconds, whereas starting with that 5 seconds already there would allow the single primed continuity to bring the duration up to about 24 seconds. The soluton to this short duration? More mods... And we again return to our #3 issue.

Volt's shield, for all it's good things, didn't fix his defense problem for such a mobile frame. The solution people came up with? Spam them. Trying to make an airtight perimiter of them was half the reason for the spam, but it was the only solution he had (especially since so much of his kit tries to push him toward the front line of the group). For those people wondering why the shield limit was complained about, and is even still mentioned now: this is it. His defense is still low, but spamming shields means that older shields (such as ones you left to guard the defense target or your allies) may suddenly disappear. This is one of those times when there are no hopes, only divergent expectations. Some people would say "what do you even need more than 4 or 6 shields for anyway?" and would expect that a limit is not unduly restricting. Without understanding the shield-spammy playstyle of a mobile "shield volt" people just don't understand how the change breaks the longstanding expectations of how people want and have found joy in playing. The change to 6 still hurt, but was at least enough that shields could be used for incidental purposes (such as reviving a teammate) without unavoidably dropping protection somewhere else.

People expect, rightly so, that a frame can survive doing what they are built to do. Volt has exactly 1 ability that is not centered on himself (at mele range), so he has a real need to be toward the front of the group where the action is. Unfortunately he lacks the defense to be there safely. This goes back to the #3 issue again. What we got instead was the Riot Shield. All in all, it wasn't a bad idea. When we heard about it there was the expectation that this would do it's job to allow low level players to survive with the frame. There was even the hope that it would give Volt more build options. The problem was the restrictions and cost. What actually happened was that the build required to make the Riot Shield work was even MORE restricting than what he had needed before with "shield-spam volt" and completely unusable by new players. I emplore anyone who believes that the cost is acceptable to try using the ability without corrupted mods and without Zenerik, even just "without Zererik" would probably be enough. Or lets put it in another way: Ivara's Prowl makes her functionally immune to damage and gives her a headshot bonus and lets her steal but it only costs either 1 or a flat 3 energy per second depending on movement (base). Volt's Riot Shield costs 5 energy per second, plus more energy for movement, PLUS the initial casting cost. Yes, these are actual numbers, his current state is LITERALLY that bad. And what of the other restrictions? Painful in their own ways that will need to be delt with, but still nothing compared with the cost that makes the ability completely unusable. This is all #1 issues, so hopefully I don't need to say much more. All we expect or hope for here is a usable ability. And trying to just use more and more mods to fix all these problems leads to another familiar problem: Not enough mods or slots. Aaaand #3, again.

Finally we come to his Discharge. Lets start by clearing this up. It isn't a "freeze things three rooms away" ability, the ability pathing makes that basically impossible. In fact, if enemies are at multiple levels in a room there is a good chance they are far enough away to be immune. The duration may be good against grineer, but against basically anyone else the duration is less than Frost's #4 Avalanche. Frost's avalanche can have the duration increased, but the limit on Discharge is damage cap induced and so cannot be easily increased. And the lack of an instant application and the long casting time is not something that frost has to deal with either. Furthermore the ground locking, in light of all that, should be simply ignored. Try going against Lv40 non-Grineer (and non-Corrupted-Grineer) enemies and see what happens. People complained about Mag's polarize (then a #2 ability) only being good against one faction, now Volt has an ultimate (#4 ability) that is nearly as restricted but has far more downsides to use and isn't as one-shottingly powerful. If Discharge is to be a CC ability, than it needs to be reliable; but either way it absolutely needs to be useful against all factions at all levels. Still, in all but a few circumstances that were so specific as to make the ability nearly unviable for regular use, it is more powerful than his old #4; so many people are now pointing out that it is better and not understanding why others are still upset. Simply put, the ability went from "bad in all but a few specific circumstances VS one specific faction" to "bad in all but a few different and somewhat less specific circumstances VS one different specific faction"; understandably this is neither what players hoped nor expected to be the end result. Again, the abilitiy's damage can't compare with what weapons can do, so it can't work well as a straight damage ability to replace weapons.

---------------------------------------------------

TL/DR:

1. Riot Shield has too many restrictions, most notably being an insane cost of use.

2. Discharge's stun is unreliable and unduly dangerous to use.

3. Volt and Volt Prime are numerically weaker than their counterparts and need more mods than they have slots to be on par.

I don't know if anyone at DE is still paying attention, but if so please know that these three things absolutely need fixing. Pretty much EVERYONE agrees with these three issues. The first one isn't even all that hard to fix. There are some other things that can use some tweaking as part or in addition to those three, but those three really are the consensus of the vast majority of people here.

They don't care, all focus is on WW wich is set for early to mid september, they don't have time for us, even if they did, (Which I think they did) they couldn't care any less, we have already said what need's need to be said, you have said more than anyone (Litteraly! you have!) and for most part, aside some, we aggree. MES was and still has poor execution. There's nothing more to it. If they don't listen to us, this thread might as well have been re-named "Bug megathread" instead of feedback,

As I sit here and watch the nekros'ses out there suffer, I grow worried for the other frames out there. What is left, there is not a whole lot left but complaint's and negativity 

I have an ever growing list of conerns for the near future, WW, please don't hurt us 

Edited August 25, 2016 by Wolfnrun