Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[voltocitygel]

4 hours ago, Cryone said:

-snip-

I hope that this is not the end... 

While lots of this is true, Volt is in a pretty good place. Sure, his passive could be stronger, shock could have more interactions, riot shield could actually be usable, I like volt where he's at. I use arcane storm helmet, so I have reduced parkour anyway, farther restricting me to the ground. If it were me, I would just remove some of riot shields restrictions (most of them), allow air casting of discharge, and maybe buff volts passive a little and have it charge damage when moving while in contact with any surface (I.e. Allow wall running to contribute too) rather than just the floor.

that said, that's one thing I love about warframe and DE. Things are always changing, and always looking to be improved. Just because they've chosen to set this aside for now doesn't mean that they won't come back to it. There are more pressing changes that need to be made, the war within (hopefully) coming this month, and plenty of warframes less viable than volt that need to be reworked.

[Cryone]

Yes, after all Volt have received some kind of rework, for good or for bad, he had it's attention for now, there are still thing might to be fixed, changed, reworked. From the provided info from Dev. streams ecc. for now DEs are focused on Ash's Blade Storm rework, some thoughts about Limbo sometimes, and for sure major updates. Anyway we are here. Now the right thing to do is waiting our turn, and when it comes we will see the evolution or maybe degradation of Volt.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Cryone

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

It's just boiled down to the simple fact that volt is not as fun to play as he used to be.

Saryn was always my second favorite frame, they have similarities, things in common.

You can always spread their first ability to multiple targets

Their second ability is a melee boost.

Third ability keeps bullets off of you

Fourth kills things in Aoe.

I'm keeping it broad so I can make a comparison, I'm aware of the differences.

The only thing I don't like about saryns rework is the health loss, but she gained energy.

I hate everything about volts rework except the shield buff.

1) At least spores always works, always spreads, where as shock gets cancelled out whenever the target was doing something that for some reason takes priority over a stun animation. Spores also gives extra damage to miasma. Do not tell me the lie that shock does anything to coiled targets, that's like saying health decay on shadows isn't a form of duration (DE)

2) I say speed is a melee boost because I refuse to waste mod space on power strength just for this ability that only lasts 16 seconds with an r9 primed continuity [garbage], when I can put on a mobility mod, and always run fast. Compared to toxic lash that lasts for 28 seconds with fleeting expertise and primed continuity on (r9).

3). Buffed. Buffed electric sheild so now it is easier to stand in one spot and watch the world burn and put no effort into the game. Well, you have a limit.

4). Changed to do dot just like miasma. No more instant damage. But miasma still does more damage, is easily able to reach a 25 energy cost without harming saryns kit, and has a way shorter, way safer, way more mobile ult to work with than volt. You can't instantly cast volts ult anymore. I die inside everytime I have to try and hide myself behind something to cast it, I/10 when I don't and think I can pull it off without Insta dying, I get ragdolled across the map. AND, assuming I do succesfully cast discharge, and more than 3 or 4 enemies are affected by it, there is no reward from doing so, and by reward, I mean FUN. SYNERGY. USEFULLNESS. There is no fun, just 100 energy spent for nothing. Sheild is literally the only useful thing. I refuse to build for discharge, because it is limited garbage cheese I didn't get a choice in. Saryns miasma is lacking some things as well, but at this point, I'm actually really thankful they didn't mess her up this bad. 

Extra: Saryn was given a larger energy pool (to match volts) and innate ability to regen energy through synergy within her kit. But volt is supposed to just conjure it out of thin air magically. Both are just as energy hungry, unless you only sparingly use your abilities...then you are just gun play and nothing else.

I use rage and equilibrium, that's all I have for energy regen. My volt gets trashed if I'm not constantly jumping around, because I can't afford vitality. I could, but then I would just forgo everything in my kit that is centered around wanting to have fun powers. You almost don't even have the luxury to use an augment mod in a high level mission unless it's capacitance, your ult will kill you for sure.

Zenurik is stupid and is not an excuse for anything. They should have never been added, but to be more realistic with my demands, they should have been 100% more transparent about what they really did so I could have just picked that one from the beginning.

 Syndicate weapons are stupid. It bothers me, the idea of using the wrong element on the wrong enemy type, and magnetic damage is the wrong damage type for everything except corpus. Yes, it's a personal problem, I can use the weapon, but seeing magnetic proc a on grineer just....

Energy pizzas are a bandaid to everything, trinity is the only real solution, but people want to nerf her.

The best I can do is bleed everywhere for energy and hope I get it back later....but shock is useless, speed needs to be recast always with energy you don't always have, and discharge cant live up to Overload. Never to me. And I refuse to build for it. Personal problem, I know, but I hate it, what it does to enemies, and every other ability that uses those mechanics.

I'm not really upset with the rework because I think it's the worst thing ever ( i do), I'm upset because they have done so much better, I was always expecting everything to be as good as what they had accomplished in the beginning (Frost/Ecalibur). Now, even when it seemed like the work they were doing wasn't as good as it could be, I realize that what I thought was bad, compared to the best they had given us, wasn't even bad at all (Saryn). Nowhere in my imagination did I think they could do worse (Volt...and maybe Mag, and Trinity, Excalibur again), but now it just seems like they aren't even trying, or they are trying to out do themselves on the suckage (Nekros). I don't even want to think about what they will do to Oberon....

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edited

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

It's just boiled down to the simple fact that volt is not as fun to play as he used to be.

What changed, exactly?  Only difference is that you can't cast Discharge while airborne, which is likely a bug.  

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Just now, RealPandemonium said:

What changed, exactly?  Only difference is that you can't cast Discharge while airborne, which is likely a bug.  

Not being able to cast discharge in the air, bug or not, is something  DE had months to fix. But they added stuff to riot sheild...

Everything changed (when the nerfs attacked).

Overload looked better. It didn't do much, but it was visually awesome. I understand, that maybe they thought the tesla coils would be overpowered if they spread through the tile set, and I even understand and agree with some of the reasons it would be better to spread from enemies....but this isn't what i originally got excited about. 

Overload was a fast, quick, Aoe damage ability, it had many issues, but none of them were adressed by discharge.

Discharge would work better for me if:

1). I could air cast

2). The coils did something actually useful, like energy regen within volts kit, so you could actually use riot sheildB or just if the tesla coil wasn't so bland in implementation....

honestly, I'd settle for having the old ult. You can have the stun. There are ways to do it, hundreds of ideas for this ability... 

The thing that is wrong with discharge, is that to me personally (this has all been personal), it is a flat, boring and negative change. It is a 100% downgrade with no benefit. My warframe experience, the frame I love playing so much, did not get any better with this ability. They took away everything I loved and gave nothing. I do not like crowd control. I don't like it in a house, not with a mouse, not on a train, not in a plane...

Blade storm honestly has a valid excuse to exist in this game now, and should not be changed if this is the way we are going to use powers in warframe.

[RealPandemonium]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Not being able to cast discharge in the air, bug or not, is something  DE had months to fix. But they added stuff to riot sheild...

Everything changed (when the nerfs attacked).

Overload looked better. It didn't do much, but it was visually awesome. I understand, that maybe they thought the tesla coils would be overpowered if they spread through the tile set, and I even understand and agree with some of the reasons it would be better to spread from enemies....but this isn't what i originally got excited about. 

Overload was a fast, quick, Aoe damage ability, it had many issues, but none of them were adressed by discharge.

Discharge would work better for me if:

1). I could air cast

2). The coils did something actually useful, like energy regen within volts kit, so you could actually use riot sheildB or just if the tesla coil wasn't so bland in implementation....

honestly, I'd settle for having the old ult. You can have the stun. There are ways to do it, hundreds of ideas for this ability... 

The thing that is wrong with discharge, is that to me personally (this has all been personal), it is a flat, boring and negative change. It is a 100% downgrade with no benefit. My warframe experience, the frame I love playing so much, did not get any better with this ability. They took away everything I loved and gave nothing. I do not like crowd control. I don't like it in a house, not with a mouse, not on a train, not in a plane...

Blade storm honestly has a valid excuse to exist in this game now, and should not be changed if this is the way we are going to use powers in warframe.

Discharge does way, way more damage than Overload did, even at Overload's maxcase.  Discharge can also permastun Grineer, and its stuns are not overridden by animation states and last a consistent amount of time (depending on the coil's circumstances,) vs Overload's haphazard, often overlapping (and thus wasted) stuns.  

I personally would have preferred for Overload to get a damage boost, its pulses spread out so that their stuns wouldn't overlap, and for it to suck nearby enemies in toward Volt so that their procs would overlap and they would take more damage.  That would have solved all of the ability's issues and made it a top-class damage power, but instead they overcomplicated things with Discharge and added another map-wide permastun vs Grineer.

You are massively overreacting when it comes to actual gameplay changes on Volt, though; probably rose-clored glasses are making you remember things differently.

Edited September 26, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

5 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Discharge does way, way more damage than Overload did, even at Overload's maxcase.  Discharge can also permastun Grineer, and its stuns are not overridden by animation states and last a consistent amount of time (depending on the coil's circumstances,) vs Overload's haphazard, often overlapping (and thus wasted) stuns.  

I personally would have preferred for Overload to get a damage boost, its pulses spread out so that their stuns wouldn't overlap, and for it to suck nearby enemies in toward Volt so that their procs would overlap and they would take more damage.  That would have solved all of the ability's issues and made it a top-class damage power, but instead they overcomplicated things with Discharge and added another map-wide permastun vs Grineer.

You are massively overreacting when it comes to actual gameplay changes on Volt, though; probably rose-clored glasses are making you remember things differently.

Oh no, overload was bad, not rose colored glasses, but it was better than Discharge.

The damage does not factor in, because it is dot. I don't have time to sit and wait for them to die, if they do. They just sit still, and you shoot them, and they die.

And I hate the stun. So no extra damage noticeable and stupid stun. Old overload was better to me, even though it had some bad things about it...

[RealPandemonium]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Oh no, overload was bad, not rose colored glasses, but it was better than Discharge.

The damage does not factor in, because it is dot. I don't have time to sit and wait for them to die, if they do. They just sit still, and you shoot them, and they die.

And I hate the stun. So no extra damage noticeable and stupid stun. Old overload was better to me, even though it had some bad things about it...

Lol, how was it better besides air cast?  The animation is the same, the range is the same, the stuns are more consistent and possibly indefinite, and the damage is way higher.  There is no real downside besides having to cast on the ground.  The implementation is less intuitive and thus it's less satisfying to use, but the overall effect is greater.  

[----Dante----]

2 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Lol, how was it better besides air cast?  The animation is the same, the range is the same, the stuns are more consistent and possibly indefinite, and the damage is way higher.  There is no real downside besides having to cast on the ground.  The implementation is less intuitive and thus it's less satisfying to use, but the overall effect is greater.  

the stun is wierd sometiems it lasts just 1-2 seconds

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

17 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Lol, how was it better besides air cast?  The animation is the same, the range is the same, the stuns are more consistent and possibly indefinite, and the damage is way higher.  There is no real downside besides having to cast on the ground.  The implementation is less intuitive and thus it's less satisfying to use, but the overall effect is greater.  

You cast overload in the right place, and it looked beautiful (situational, rose colored glasses on my face)

In my mind it goes like like this.

Discharge is bad because it is part of a growing trend on the part of DE to create boring, one dimensional powers that trivialize the very thing in game we are playing against, that will most of the time be unusable due to power denial.

I have these pieces to an point I'm trying to make, and I'll just try to construct it as I go and hope everyone follows.

The way warframe works with its spawn mechanics, only a certain number of enemies can be on a tile set at any given time. I assume this partly because of the nonsensical explanation behind the nerf to nekros's summons.

It's like if you are playing chess, but every time you eliminate a pawn, it gets replaced. Sounds frustrating.

Well...that's how interception, survival and mobile defense work (and technically spy, capture and sabotage missions, although you don't even have to kill a single soul to win those missions). It's not just specifically tied to just endless and non endless, but missions with finite and infinite amounts of enemies to play against.

Crowd control abilities have their respective place on the starchart and damage abilities theirs. You start mixing stuff around, and people call cheese, like how some will complain about Embers in extermination missions, or how I hate playing with Novas in survival. 

My favorite mission type is survival, and I prefer playing against infinite amounts of enemies. If you are playing on a team of 4 and you are carrying the team, you are killing 4 tennos worth of enemies, and the faster you kill them, the faster the game throws them at you. This is exhilarating (But one tennos worth of enemies is barely worth anything at all, solo survival is it's own problem). this is leading up to why I especially hate discharge. 

You don't have to kill enemies in infinite missions. You can take the easy way out and just lock everything down. Its why LOR was "easy" with mirage. Warframe penalizes you for killing enemies with even more enemies and broken, exponential health, armor, and damage scaling, but rewards you for keeping those anemia on the map for as long as possible, blinded, asleep, distracted, immobile.

Playing as Volt can be fun sometimes, but in most cases you have to stop and wonder why you are even putting any effort in at all, risking being Insta killed at every turn when you have an impenetrable sheild, and an enemy off switch? You can stop all of the misery by setting up a sheild or two and camping there with a friend while you cast discharge. And restores and focus schools, and a plethora of other nonsense encourages you to do so.

But instead of fixing missions, and enemy scaling, they are adding cc to everything. My Saryn has a hard time surviving in a high level grineer mission that my volt can breeze through. But it's not because I'm killing anything. I sat solo in a sortie 3 against Sargus ruk, for 30 minutes  using energy pizzas for sheild and discharge. And I kept them fighting each other with naramon (which blatantly tips off nyx, and makes her pointless). I died once from carelessness. I went to the ps4 menu and messages friends. I got on the forums. And for 30 minutes repetitively cast discharge and sat behind a sheild. (Shock and speed have no place in this kind of kit.)

 

 

[LunarEdge7]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Oh no, overload was bad, not rose colored glasses, but it was better than Discharge.

The damage does not factor in, because it is dot. I don't have time to sit and wait for them to die, if they do. They just sit still, and you shoot them, and they die.

And I hate the stun. So no extra damage noticeable and stupid stun. Old overload was better to me, even though it had some bad things about it...

CC > DPS. Stunning is more useful in the endgame than damage in the endgame, on any tier.

Discharge does do more dmg than Overload because it doesn't rely on a room of electronics to amplify its dmg, but enemies being in close proximity instead. DoT does get factored in, it's not like Slash proc lovers don't count in the DoT, but only the death animation (slicing things into half or seeing them bleed and kneel to death).

[LunarEdge7]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

You don't have to kill enemies in infinite missions. You can take the easy way out and just lock everything down. Its why LOR was "easy" with mirage. Warframe penalizes you for killing enemies with even more enemies and broken, exponential health, armor, and damage scaling, but rewards you for keeping those anemia on the map for as long as possible, blinded, asleep, distracted, immobile.

I posted my previous post in here before you posted this one, so, apologies.

But I do believe they're gonna solve this soon. And atm they're trying to balance the frames before the enemies, to fit the new ehp change in the future, I think.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

19 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

I posted my previous post in here before you posted this one, so, apologies.

But I do believe they're gonna solve this soon. And atm they're trying to balance the frames before the enemies, to fit the new ehp change in the future, I think.

I don't like cc>dps, but there isn't much for it until, like you said, they solve the problem.

What I can't see, is what we are going to do with these abilities after enemies are fixed (if ever). 

The big question : Why do I need to stop every enemy in Aoe and trivialize everything?

Why? I didn't have to with overload. But I have to now with discharge, and the only way so I have in the matter is build my kit to make discharge weaker.. 

Volt is the only reason I ever started playing warframe again in the first place, 2 years ago (i bought him and threw Excalibur away), and the only reason I liked Volt was because of how awesome electricity generally looks in video games, and how warframe implemented it (though there was much I hoped would be improved) and my favorite game character of all time is Cole Macgrath.

This is just not doing it for me...

 

 

[voltocitygel]

It's a simple difference in playstyle, is what I'm seeing this argument turning into. I'm for discharge, but unlike overload, it's a high damage DoT. Overload was a lower damage nuke, as in, all the damage delivered at once (basically). While I had an easy time adjusting and didn't mind so much, others might not. While discharge is a "better" ability, it's a different flavor, so to speak, than overload. I think that's why people get so upset about it. It's the only ability that was truely reworked, rather than just QoL changes. 

Yes, discharge can stun and eventually kill large groups of enemies. Yes it does more damage than overload ever could, because it's damage SCALES. Not literally, but in a sense that the more enemies in an area, the more total damage you do. And more than just the same number to each enemy, like most AoE's are. It gets exponentially higher. 

I like to use it and forget about the targets, killing high priority targets in the stun or non stunned enemies in the area until it expires. While this change may work for someone like me who's grown to use volt to tactically augment gun / sword play, people who used him as solely a caster frame will be disappointed by the change. Everyone has their own vision for frames- and to a certain extent, that's what customization is for. 

If you want to maximize Volt's damage, build strength and duration, and maybe range. If you want a nuke, max strength, minimize duration. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

14 minutes ago, voltocitygel said:

It's a simple difference in playstyle, is what I'm seeing this argument turning into. I'm for discharge, but unlike overload, it's a high damage DoT. Overload was a lower damage nuke, as in, all the damage delivered at once (basically). While I had an easy time adjusting and didn't mind so much, others might not. While discharge is a "better" ability, it's a different flavor, so to speak, than overload. I think that's why people get so upset about it. It's the only ability that was truely reworked, rather than just QoL changes. 

Yes, discharge can stun and eventually kill large groups of enemies. Yes it does more damage than overload ever could, because it's damage SCALES. Not literally, but in a sense that the more enemies in an area, the more total damage you do. And more than just the same number to each enemy, like most AoE's are. It gets exponentially higher. 

I like to use it and forget about the targets, killing high priority targets in the stun or non stunned enemies in the area until it expires. While this change may work for someone like me who's grown to use volt to tactically augment gun / sword play, people who used him as solely a caster frame will be disappointed by the change. Everyone has their own vision for frames- and to a certain extent, that's what customization is for. 

If you want to maximize Volt's damage, build strength and duration, and maybe range. If you want a nuke, max strength, minimize duration. 

Then speed and sheild are useless

[voltocitygel]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Then speed and sheild are useless

Yes, but it turns discharge and shock into the nukes you want them to be. Most warframes work this way- choose what to build for, lose out on something the build sacrifices.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1 minute ago, voltocitygel said:

Yes, but it turns discharge and shock into the nukes you want them to be. Most warframes work this way- choose what to build for, lose out on something the build sacrifices.

A 16 second speed duration would be an acceptable sacrifice for minimum duration ( just so I don't have to see the stupid tesla stun). But 16 seconds isn't Even how bad this would get with that. I get what you are trying to say, but it's all just over limited, for no reason.

I would rather the stun on discharge lasted longer based on how much static energy you had saved up and use of shock (but that would be a nerf to you guys), and the passive didn't go away all at once on every attack, and if I didn't want the stun, I would use it with speed active.....

[ElectronX_Core]

Ok. Sigh. haven't been on  the forums for months and I can't be bothered to read 65 pages of suggestions. Most of these you will have heard before by now, but here's my take:

Passive: Parkour 2.0 makes it kinda useless.

1st ability: If stun duration could be modded, that'd be great.

2nd ability: I don't use it that much, but it's fine.

3rd ability: Here we go. If the shield is charged by shock, the effects of shock (damage, stun duration) should be applied to any enemy that touches it. As for the riot shield, all of this should be removed: 1. No one cares about the ragdoll on contact. 2. The shield's duration still expires while you're holding it. 3. There is a drain based on movement. 4. The primary restriction.

4th ability: I like it, but something that would make it scale better is giving it a damage multiplier that stacks every second or something. But it's generally fine.

[Cytobel]

12 hours ago, voltocitygel said:

It's a simple difference in playstyle, is what I'm seeing this argument turning into.

*snip*

THANK YOU.  I'm glad to see someone looking at what's really there with many of our arguments.

As to the rest, I cringe when I hear people still referring to Discharge as "high damage".  This is blatantly false, but easy to mistake.  It's in fact a "big numbers" ability.

The difference can be subtle, but here it is in a nutshell:  "high damage" wipes rooms quickly, whereas "big numbers" inflicts a ton of theoretical damage.

Examples of high damage are somewhat a matter of perspective, but think of a well moded Vaykor Marelock with an appropriate elemental combo and a fitting spare element.  This is a pistol I recall massacring level 80ish Heavy Gunners with 1-2 headshots.  A Tigress is another good example of something that inflicts ridiculous damage when modded correctly.

That "modded correctly" is part of the problem.  You cannot make use of mods to grant Discharge anything like an elemental combo, so it relies on impressive looking numbers that scale well with Strength.

The issues are:  1) Discharge being a DoT means that Armor or other mitigation gets multiple cracks against the damage, making mitigation exponentially more potent,  2) without the benefit of an elemental combo you're stuck bashing away at a foe's shields and/or health with an element that gains no bonuses whatsoever against these hp pools, and 3) shields become actually good against electric damage due to its straight point-for-point trade.

No, being able to slaughter robotic/mechanical isn't a thing, partially because of the shields issue, but mostly because there aren't many of them ACTUALLY weak to electricity.  Shields are a thing for Corpus (GODDAMN SHIELD OSPREYS), and I don't feel Rollers, Latchers, and/or Regulators are justification for electricity.

MIND YOU, I'm NOT saying the ability is bad.  It's a good, if not dependable, CC.  It's a DoT that has potential numbers, large or small.  It's attached to a 'Frame with Electric Shield.  It simply isn't "high damage", and the health cap was attached to ensure it never truely becomes that.

About 90% of what I look forward to in Damage 3.0 is what happens to make electricity more viable as damage.  That would solve some of the issues Volt suffers from right now, and we all know there are a multitude of little tweaks that we want AS WELL.  We've only discussed them for 65 FREAKING PAGES NOW, not like there is the possibility of misinterpretation......

Unless that's what "generally well received" was all about...

P.S., I'm not calling you out on this, not intentionally anyway.  It's something that keeps coming up and it's driving me crazier.  Thanks again for pointing out the issues of opinion vs fact.  Some of us have been left alone in this thread a little too long, and we're starting to feel like there's only a handful of us giving a crap about Volt.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Cytobel

[LunarEdge7]

The constant reminders of it being now the 65th page.. Is this worth even dragging further out now? I'm pretty sure some of us had to repeat our points in here just to keep this thread lively.

Can we just.. die now?

[Cytobel]

Nope.  There's no rest for the wicked.

[voltocitygel]

2 hours ago, Cytobel said:

THANK YOU.  I'm glad to see someone looking at what's really there with many of our arguments.

As to the rest, I cringe when I hear people still referring to Discharge as "high damage".  This is blatantly false, but easy to mistake.  It's in fact a "big numbers" ability.

The difference can be subtle, but here it is in a nutshell:  "high damage" wipes rooms quickly, whereas "big numbers" inflicts a ton of theoretical damage.

Examples of high damage are somewhat a matter of perspective, but think of a well moded Vaykor Marelock with an appropriate elemental combo and a fitting spare element.  This is a pistol I recall massacring level 80ish Heavy Gunners with 1-2 headshots.  A Tigress is another good example of something that inflicts ridiculous damage when modded correctly.

That "modded correctly" is part of the problem.  You cannot make use of mods to grant Discharge anything like an elemental combo, so it relies on impressive looking numbers that scale well with Strength.

The issues are:  1) Discharge being a DoT means that Armor or other mitigation gets multiple cracks against the damage, making mitigation exponentially more potent,  2) without the benefit of an elemental combo you're stuck bashing away at a foe's shields and/or health with an element that gains no bonuses whatsoever against these hp pools, and 3) shields become actually good against electric damage due to its straight point-for-point trade.

No, being able to slaughter robotic/mechanical isn't a thing, partially because of the shields issue, but mostly because there aren't many of them ACTUALLY weak to electricity.  Shields are a thing for Corpus (GODDAMN SHIELD OSPREYS), and I don't feel Rollers, Latchers, and/or Regulators are justification for electricity.

MIND YOU, I'm NOT saying the ability is bad.  It's a good, if not dependable, CC.  It's a DoT that has potential numbers, large or small.  It's attached to a 'Frame with Electric Shield.  It simply isn't "high damage", and the health cap was attached to ensure it never truely becomes that.

About 90% of what I look forward to in Damage 3.0 is what happens to make electricity more viable as damage.  That would solve some of the issues Volt suffers from right now, and we all know there are a multitude of little tweaks that we want AS WELL.  We've only discussed them for 65 FREAKING PAGES NOW, not like there is the possibility of misinterpretation......

Unless that's what "generally well received" was all about...

P.S., I'm not calling you out on this, not intentionally anyway.  It's something that keeps coming up and it's driving me crazier.  Thanks again for pointing out the issues of opinion vs fact.  Some of us have been left alone in this thread a little too long, and we're starting to feel like there's only a handful of us giving a crap about Volt.

Nope, I completely get it.

And yes, one problem warframe has is that DoT's suffer, as you said, due to already broken armor levels working exponentially better. A damage over time ability / proc should work like toxin and slash procs do. 

Hopefully 3.0 helps electric. It's a damage type with one of the best procs, but worst damage multipliers. 50% bonus against machinery and robotics, -50 vs alloy armor. Sure, it works in theory as a mostly unmodified damage type, but in practice it's a little different. Alloy armor destroys your damage potential against grineer, and shields render your bonus against robotics nil until you get through them. Electricity should have small - moderate bonuses against lots of enemy health types, if you ask me. Lots of metals conduct electricity, and lots of (well, all) electronics are sensitive to imbalanced electricity. 

Even so, I love volt as is. I can still clear rooms with discharge (press 4, walk away), just.... Not as high level as I think it should work against.

[YagoXiten]

16 hours ago, Cytobel said:

THANK YOU.  I'm glad to see someone looking at what's really there with many of our arguments.

As to the rest, I cringe when I hear people still referring to Discharge as "high damage".  This is blatantly false, but easy to mistake.  It's in fact a "big numbers" ability.

The difference can be subtle, but here it is in a nutshell:  "high damage" wipes rooms quickly, whereas "big numbers" inflicts a ton of theoretical damage.

Examples of high damage are somewhat a matter of perspective, but think of a well moded Vaykor Marelock with an appropriate elemental combo and a fitting spare element.  This is a pistol I recall massacring level 80ish Heavy Gunners with 1-2 headshots.  A Tigress is another good example of something that inflicts ridiculous damage when modded correctly.

That "modded correctly" is part of the problem.  You cannot make use of mods to grant Discharge anything like an elemental combo, so it relies on impressive looking numbers that scale well with Strength.

The issues are:  1) Discharge being a DoT means that Armor or other mitigation gets multiple cracks against the damage, making mitigation exponentially more potent,  2) without the benefit of an elemental combo you're stuck bashing away at a foe's shields and/or health with an element that gains no bonuses whatsoever against these hp pools, and 3) shields become actually good against electric damage due to its straight point-for-point trade.

No, being able to slaughter robotic/mechanical isn't a thing, partially because of the shields issue, but mostly because there aren't many of them ACTUALLY weak to electricity.  Shields are a thing for Corpus (GODDAMN SHIELD OSPREYS), and I don't feel Rollers, Latchers, and/or Regulators are justification for electricity.

MIND YOU, I'm NOT saying the ability is bad.  It's a good, if not dependable, CC.  It's a DoT that has potential numbers, large or small.  It's attached to a 'Frame with Electric Shield.  It simply isn't "high damage", and the health cap was attached to ensure it never truely becomes that.

About 90% of what I look forward to in Damage 3.0 is what happens to make electricity more viable as damage.  That would solve some of the issues Volt suffers from right now, and we all know there are a multitude of little tweaks that we want AS WELL.  We've only discussed them for 65 FREAKING PAGES NOW, not like there is the possibility of misinterpretation......

Unless that's what "generally well received" was all about...

P.S., I'm not calling you out on this, not intentionally anyway.  It's something that keeps coming up and it's driving me crazier.  Thanks again for pointing out the issues of opinion vs fact.  Some of us have been left alone in this thread a little too long, and we're starting to feel like there's only a handful of us giving a crap about Volt.

 

14 hours ago, voltocitygel said:

Nope, I completely get it.

And yes, one problem warframe has is that DoT's suffer, as you said, due to already broken armor levels working exponentially better. A damage over time ability / proc should work like toxin and slash procs do. 

Hopefully 3.0 helps electric. It's a damage type with one of the best procs, but worst damage multipliers. 50% bonus against machinery and robotics, -50 vs alloy armor. Sure, it works in theory as a mostly unmodified damage type, but in practice it's a little different. Alloy armor destroys your damage potential against grineer, and shields render your bonus against robotics nil until you get through them. Electricity should have small - moderate bonuses against lots of enemy health types, if you ask me. Lots of metals conduct electricity, and lots of (well, all) electronics are sensitive to imbalanced electricity. 

Even so, I love volt as is. I can still clear rooms with discharge (press 4, walk away), just.... Not as high level as I think it should work against.

There's some serious misconceptions about how armor affects damage over time abilities. It does not affect them multiple times.

For example:

Against an enemy with 300 ferrite armor, 1,000 Electric damage will only deal 500.

Against an enemy with 300 ferrite armor, 100 Electric damage per second for ten seconds will deal 500 damage over the duration.

In other words, multiple hits do not affect the way armor reduces damage.

The reason why Electric damage is so bad against Alloy armor, is that the formula used for damage calculation effectively increases the armor of a target when you hit it with the wrong damage type, and ignores a portion of their armor when hitting a target with the correct damage type.

If it weren't for the damage type issues, Discharge would actually be rather potent as a damage dealing ability. Even with it being dealt over time, it hits considerably hard against clusters of enemies, since it scales exponentially. Though the health cap does somewhat damper the exponential damage, and limit the usage of the CC effects.
 

 

 

[RealPandemonium]

8 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

 

If it weren't for the damage type issues, Discharge would actually be rather potent as a damage dealing ability. Even with it being dealt over time, it hits considerably hard against clusters of enemies, since it scales exponentially. Though the health cap does somewhat damper the exponential damage, and limit the usage of the CC effects.
 

 

 

Actually, unlike Overload, Discharge doesn't deal more damage to clustered targets since it doesn't actually inflict any procs at all; the damage that each coil deals per target within its radius is always limited by the health cap but as long as all targets are within range of at least one coil, it will take the same number of casts to kill one enemy or X number of enemies of the same EHP.  

[Cytobel]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Actually, unlike Overload, Discharge doesn't deal more damage to clustered targets since it doesn't actually inflict any procs at all; the damage that each coil deals per target within its radius is always limited by the health cap but as long as all targets are within range of at least one coil, it will take the same number of casts to kill one enemy or X number of enemies of the same EHP.  

I would like to see procs tied back into Discharge.  It is an Ultimate, after all.  The spikes of damage caused by procs need not factor towards the HP cap either.  That'd give us a bit more real power to the ability without "reinventing the wheel".  Moreover it'd be hilarious to watch tesla'd foes randomly proc as their electronics overload (or whatever).  Point is, it'd be nice to have AND suspension of disbelief can fit in.

@YagoXiten:  I made a mistake of oversimplification by simply using the term "armor" when I should've said "defense".  Point on the issue of DoT weirdness is that some aspects of how damage is computed wind up feeling very strange, thanks to a less than transparent mixture of enemy hp scaling, armor scaling, and a static set of resistances.  This of course ignores those weird edge cases with random modifiers (or whatever the hell is going on that was screwing with testing numbers on abilities when I tried it for myself).

Honestly though, whether armor takes it's chunk of damage off right up front or per tick, it should balance the same.  I don't think the damage calculator is quite so clean and easy as that though.  I hate to say "it just feels off", but that's the case.  Mind you I'm all for defense having the advantage over damage.  It becomes more a problem when enemies scale beyond players so radically as they can often do in Warframe.

Heck, because I'm falling back to "it feels off" we know I'm not bringing the full force of logic to bear here.  That's why I'm not telling you you're wrong.  Hell, I'd bet scaling was throwing my sense of the numbers quite badly.  On the other hand I'm not certain by what method mitigation takes its bites off incoming DoT ticks, or other damage for that matter.  I've read what was said and I've seen how the game does things; they don't always agree.