Poll: Do you agree with the nerfs? 1000 votes in

[Stratego89]

11 minutes ago, Sennera said:

That's not to say infinite scaling isn't a problem in this game; rather I agree it's a huge problem in this game. Monster Hunter doesn't bother with scaling, they just roughly follow a tiered system for gear and enemies and after about a thousand hours of gameplay you reach the top of the tier for both.

Infinite scaling is only a "problem" because too many people are too dumb to understand that it's there to kill us not to try to eventually beat the highest level enemies that the game can throw out to TRY to kill us- and too many people that don't think balance needs to exist in a PvE game because as long as they're having fun being overpowered no one else matters.

A tiered system in warframe would be bad. The reason warframe is so great is because unlike pretty much EVERY other MMORPG game, there IS no tiers. It's not "grind for one thing to get a better thing to get a better thing" in a giant chain that just ends and leaves you with nothing to do. You can choose how you wish to go through the content. You can choose which content you want to go through. You never "run out of content". Ever. Even once you have all the frames, all the weapons, all the mods. There's so many nearly infinite combinations you can try out to make it fit your own personal style PERFECTLY- that there's no way to ever run out of "content".

The issue is not with scaling. The issue is with player mentality. The player mentality is partially caused by a lack of interactive content (missions), partially due to the game's reliance on "hard enemies" the end up just being OP at some point to give us a challenge. The issue with that is that it takes too long for that "moment" the enemies actually become a challenge to show up for players who have better gear, and then that sweet spot where it's actually fun and fair passes by REALLY quickly and just turns into "ok we either have to cheese to win or leave". But cheesing is not fun. Players don't cheese to have fun, they cheese to make the most out of their keys because RNG hurts- but I DIGRESS.

The point is the ISSUE is player mentality. The SYMPTOM is cheese. The RESULT is nerfs and lots of whining because of the people who cause the issue. It loops into itself. They reap what they sow. The player mentality while not ENTIRELY is still their own fault. DE is very open about what they want this game to be like and if they don't like it they have no reason to play. They didn't pay for this game, they can leave and they've lost nothing. And most finally the SOLUTION..... is to remove old, broken, easy, boring, exploitable stuff like interception missions and deception missions, freshening up the rest, adding in new ones, and balancing the stuff we use to experience them.

Did everyone reading this right now just get that? The solution to ALL the problems here... is EXACTLY what DE is doing. DE HAS the solution. Now give it time- because it can't all happen at once.

 

[Stratego89]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)youngweezy345 said:

also if de didnt want us to go against lvl 1000+ enemies why they didnt @(*()$ add a scaling cap on enemies why do the people who go that far gets punished for going that far explain that

BECAUSE... They needed scaling to KILL PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO USE CHEESE. Omg HOW can you not understand this!??!? If the scaling HAS A CAP- then enemies NEVER get any harder than that. Then People like YOU NEVER HAVE TO LEAVE THE MISSION.

DUDE.

DUUUUUUDE!

SERIOUSLY?!

 

[(PSN)youngweezy345]

1 minute ago, Stratego89 said:

Infinite scaling is only a "problem" because too many people are too dumb to understand that it's there to kill us not to try to eventually beat the highest level enemies that the game can throw out to TRY to kill us- and too many people that don't think balance needs to exist in a PvE game because as long as they're having fun being overpowered no one else matters.

A tiered system in warframe would be bad. The reason warframe is so great is because unlike pretty much EVERY other MMORPG game, there IS no tiers. It's not "grind for one thing to get a better thing to get a better thing" in a giant chain that just ends and leaves you with nothing to do. You can choose how you wish to go through the content. You can choose which content you want to go through. You never "run out of content". Ever. Even once you have all the frames, all the weapons, all the mods. There's so many nearly infinite combinations you can try out to make it fit your own personal style PERFECTLY- that there's no way to ever run out of "content".

The issue is not with scaling. The issue is with player mentality. The player mentality is partially caused by a lack of interactive content (missions), partially due to the game's reliance on "hard enemies" the end up just being OP at some point to give us a challenge. The issue with that is that it takes too long for that "moment" the enemies actually become a challenge to show up for players who have better gear, and then that sweet spot where it's actually fun and fair passes by REALLY quickly and just turns into "ok we either have to cheese to win or leave". But cheesing is not fun. Players don't cheese to have fun, they cheese to make the most out of their keys because RNG hurts- but I DIGRESS.

The point is the ISSUE is player mentality. The SYMPTOM is cheese. The RESULT is nerfs and lots of whining because of the people who cause the issue. It loops into itself. They reap what they sow. The player mentality while not ENTIRELY is still their own fault. DE is very open about what they want this game to be like and if they don't like it they have no reason to play. They didn't pay for this game, they can leave and they've lost nothing. And most finally the SOLUTION..... is to remove old, broken, easy, boring, exploitable stuff like interception missions and deception missions, freshening up the rest, adding in new ones, and balancing the stuff we use to experience them.

Did everyone reading this right now just get that? The solution to ALL the problems here... is EXACTLY what DE is doing. DE HAS the solution. Now give it time- because it can't all happen at once.

 

umm a challenge is a challenge and is we fail going against 1000+ we regroup get stronger and smarter to beat the harder enemies duh and second of all we all started out as noobs in warframe we learn we test we push our selves to get where we are and the fact that the community fails to understand the game regroup and beat the so called challenge as infinite scaling but nerf the players who have failed, got stronger, got smarter, to beat the challenge like i said get good

[Stratego89]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)youngweezy345 said:

just like i said the community just have to learn to get good its really not that hard in warframe

Cheese is not getting good. Cheese is being a plague to this game. You're the one that needs to get good- stop relying on cheese tactics, stop complaining they're being taken away, and either move the **** on or quit the game.

[Eric1738]

I dont like two things: first being EB slide attack costs energy. the second one is the range cap to Blessing.

[(PSN)youngweezy345]

@Stratego89 umm how bout you and the rest of the community come talk to me when you guys face lvl 1000+ enemies

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)youngweezy345 said:

@Stratego89 try going against lvl 1000+ enemies something the community clearly don't realize is that warframe has no scaling cap there enemies scale up to lvl 9999 or until the game breaks 

Everyone knows there's no cap. We also know that DE is planning to overhaul balance game-wide. Damage 3.0 and Mods 3.0 are not far behind 18.13. We're not the only ones getting nerfed; enemy balancing is finally, finally, finally getting looked at.

Back when T4 was introduced, it was meant to be "the ultimate test". But while going past 1hr in T3 sur is perfectly realistic (even without CP), in T4 the S#&$ hits the fan by the 45-minute mark. It's a complete mess and always has been. So before we all start declaring the Apocalypse cometh, let's hear what DE has to say about their intentions for enemy balancing.

7 minutes ago, Sennera said:

What I'm trying to point out is that DE didn't intend for people to get that far. The nerfs aren't to make it harder to go that far, the nerfs are to make the lower levels you're supposed to stay in more challenging and only have the side effect of making the stupidly high level enemies harder to reach.

This is not the case. Some of the staff may have anecdotally said on occasion that it's silly to go past wave 20 or 20m. But it's never been said outright that this is DE's stance. That perspective was propagated by the community. Obviously DE does not intend for you to stay in T4 for 5 hrs. But that doesn't mean enemies don't need to be severely tightened up at the high-level, along with frames.

[Sennera]

2 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

A tiered system in warframe would be bad. The reason warframe is so great is because unlike pretty much EVERY other MMORPG game, there IS no tiers. It's not "grind for one thing to get a better thing to get a better thing" in a giant chain that just ends and leaves you with nothing to do. You can choose how you wish to go through the content. You can choose which content you want to go through. You never "run out of content". Ever. Even once you have all the frames, all the weapons, all the mods. There's so many nearly infinite combinations you can try out to make it fit your own personal style PERFECTLY- that there's no way to ever run out of "content".

 

I think you misunderstand how Monster Hunter's tiering works. People who have 2000+ hours in those games won't claim to have beaten the game because the top tier still leaves so much challenge. Monster Hunter games don't get content added in continuously yet their players still sink thousands of hours into them because you don't 'run out of content' with what ships in the game.

 

That aside now, I don't expect Warframe to become explicitly tiered but I think DE needs to start thinking of things in terms of tiers to structure the scaling for challenge.

[Gilmaesh]

no problem here, some changes maybe need some tweaks (excal slide attack / more energy for mag / volt drop speed), but overall i'm ok with them.

[notlamprey]

For the most part, I'm much too busy mastery-foddering a huge backlog of stuff to put any attention towards seeing how I feel about these most recent changes.

I'll probably settle on a solid position by the end of next week, but for now I'd say "there are issues, but it's a decent start."

I must be the only one who thinks Prism needs more tuning, probably in the form of a base cast time reduction. I'm provisionally suggesting that it should draw line of sight from itself to enemies and not the other way around, but I don't have enough info on how that would make it stack up against other abilities.

[Stratego89]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

This is not the case. Some of the staff may have anecdotally said on occasion that it's silly to go past wave 20 or 20m. But it's never been said outright that this is DE's stance. That perspective was propagated by the community. Obviously DE does not intend for you to stay in T4 for 5 hrs. But that doesn't mean enemies don't need to be severely tightened up at the high-level, along with frames.

This used to be the case but about 2 months ago in a devstream DE ON STREAM and CLEARLY stated that they put in sorties for "end game content" and that enemies of those levels were what the game was being balanced around- and that we weren't supposed to be able to easily beat them or go past that level.

So yes- DE neither intends for us to go to insane enemy levels, and they do not want us to either. Which is why they're nerfing abilities, nerfing weapons, reworking damage, reworking scaling. Basically fixing all the issues related to this. Problem is- that wont' fix the problem unless it causes a LOT of players to quit. The issue is not the scaling- it's the player mentality of people refusing to accept the point of it is to MURDER us- not to challenge us to exploit and beat LITERAL infinity somehow and flash around Epeens.

[Sennera]

The hysteria changes are fine with me. The expanding bubble made me 'wtf?' at first until I saw that enemies needed LoS so all I had to do was duck into a doorway to change back into normal Valkyr.

I don't feel the extra energy drain either since I'm not a hysteria build; I primarily use Warcry to slow enemies down plus buff armor, then Paralysis gets used for stumbling groups of enemies (works great with warcry slowdowns) and /maybe/ doing a finisher if I feel like spending 2 seconds getting in close when I can just put 1 second into shooting them. Hysteria just gets used to regen health or if I'm getting pissed and want to rip things to shreds. Ripline gets used to collect dust on my 1 key; only because a dust collection is more useful than Ripline ever since Parkour 2.0.

[Stratego89]

9 minutes ago, Sennera said:

I think you misunderstand how Monster Hunter's tiering works. People who have 2000+ hours in those games won't claim to have beaten the game because the top tier still leaves so much challenge. Monster Hunter games don't get content added in continuously yet their players still sink thousands of hours into them because you don't 'run out of content' with what ships in the game.

 

That aside now, I don't expect Warframe to become explicitly tiered but I think DE needs to start thinking of things in terms of tiers to structure the scaling for challenge.

I actually know absolutely nothing about monster hunter- and from what you said about the tiering system it sounded just like every other game that has them that I've ever played- like WoW for example. You do one thing to get something to do another thing to get something rinse and repeat till you hit the end then just get bored because there's nothing to do. Even if monster hunter has stuff to do at the end- if I'm right about what you said and it still matches the "get better gear to get better gear" rinse and repeat thing- warframe still doesn't do that.

The only "tiers" that DE should think of are "new players", "average-late game players", and "tryhards"- and I use that term with the best of intentions. Basically "people who need to not get their butts whooped and are learning the game, "most players other than the newbies", and "those who want to push themselves hard and get a challenge- but by doing so would break the game under conventional rewards systems". It's simple. For the people that WANT to push their limits- make that challenge their reward after a certain point. People are obsessed with rewards so they should just cut off rewards after the XX minute/wave mark in the new tiered system you seem to want for the hardcore players. To compensate for that they can give the rewards better % chance for the things that normally have a lower drop rate- and boost up the content to higher difficulty right from the start so that it entertains them faster. Everyone wins under this system.

So yeah- a "tiered" system would work in my eyes, but an INCREDIBLY simplistic one with only 3 groups- one of which doesn't last long and another that many players wouldn't choose to do anyways because most of this game's community is casual- that's why they choose to cheese things instead of put effort in to earn it.

[lSwRl]

I agree with most of the changes.

The only changes I disagree with or I am unhappy with are these :

- Mag's rework is really bad (her 2 is ok)

- Volt's speed changes (Reducing or increasing the FOV on cast should be optional. Plus I don't know you came up with this idea but the fact that you have to pick up a thingy to be affected by volt's speed is really annoying)

- Blessing's Damage Resistance formula: 
  Damage Resistance % = 100 - Square (Average (Tenno Health %)) (This formula is overly complicated) Trinity's nerf was handled really badly.

- Exalted Blade’s built-in Radial Blind on spin will now cost ½ the Energy of a regular Radial Blind. (Why ? Just why? This makes no sense)

 

[Teloch]

3 hours ago, izzatuw said:

http://www.strawpoll.me/10347838

 

The recent changes have split the community apart pretty well so do you agree or disagree with the nerfs? 

Yes. Thousain times yes, and I wan more nerfs.

I want Bladestorm Nerfed, I want tonkor nerfed, and I want... Erm... I guess that's all I want nerfed (at least for now)

#Nerfgazm

[flamingblueice]

Ummm

3 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

Have you even tried out the new Magnetize? It is amazing.

Yeah, it is quite good when synergized. But Polarize took a big hit. I don't think i will ever use my Mag P until they buff Polarize back to its scaling nature from where it came, because now she's isn't able to do what she was very good at before, and that was destroy the corpus shields. Now try that with a lvl 100 enemy, and it feels like you are just tickling them. 

3 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I agree with the nerfs with the understanding that DE is planning to also nerf our enemies, nerf random sortie conditions that don't make sense and nerf unforgiving conditions in raids that induce rage, exclude non experienced players and frustrate everyone. 

Some of the nerfs are agreeable, like EB and hysteria. because they don't really affect how you mod your frames or how you forma'd them. Others, i am feeling TERRIBLE just thinking of the fact that the multiple forma i have spent on my frames and the time spent leveling em up, its all been a waste of both forma and time. Because i tailor made them for specific build setups! And changing them abruptly is a very very evil thing to do. People seem very happy about TRINITY bless nerfs somehow, without realizing that a Trinity player needed the most presence of mind on the field to be able to use that bless correctly, as in raids, you have 8 pairs of energy and health bars to monitor, and providing for every single one of those 8 players needs skill. And not to mention, the fact that someone may have put in polarities that are not 'V' so that they could be bless oriented. I pity those people and sympathize with all my heart. And now, all trin is used for is energy dispensing. Earlier she had two roles, but we all know what happens to frames that have only one role with one particular ability... I guess i should start mentally preparing for an EV nerf. Those of you demanding it though, if you hate it so much, don't use it, don't invite a Trinity to your squad, never ever. If you still do it, then stop blabbering about nerfing the only healer and energy dispenser in the game you brainfart.

[PerishedFraud]

Excal's nerf is utter crap. Why would players even use the slide anymore btw? (oh no, damage!)

Trinity's nerf is also utter crap but completely justified as she was disgustingly powerful.

Mag's nerf is cruel, however her rework also makes her less of a one trick pony. I say give this one time.

The fact that Valkyr is no long plain old godmode makes me smile. This is a nerf i completely and utterly approve.

[Stratego89]

23 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Yes. Thousain times yes, and I wan more nerfs.

I want Bladestorm Nerfed, I want tonkor nerfed, and I want... Erm... I guess that's all I want nerfed (at least for now)

#Nerfgazm

You forgot Energy Vampire.

[Doom_Bunny]

My problem with the reworks is that, now these mostly squishy frames (armour scaling beats Valkyr) require practically every mod from health to strength. There is no room for augments, mods like rage, or other weird stuff that don't directly affect abilities/defence stats. They require high stat all-round builds because their base stats never went up. Volt and Mag got some cool new abilities (that could use some tweaks) but their base stats are still low. Meaning we need a bunch of heavy stat mods just to bring them up to par with other frames and enemies.

*Valkyr now has a massive energy drain on hysteria to counter-act people staying in it for a long time. However all it's done is push players away from Valkyr because now to be even decent with all of Valkyr's abilities and survive, you require practically every stat mod.

*Then there is the whole conflict of range vs duration. Mag's polarize relies on duration for distance however only magnetize uses duration (and it does nothing once the target dies). Overload relies on range for distance and uses a small amount of duration for the effect on enemies. Out of his abilities only shock uses range, his other abilities primarily rely on duration.

I look forward to the enemy changes and hope armour scaling might be among those changes. Maybe par will change.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Postal_pat

[-CM-Emptiness]

Mag: Not with the current system.

Volt: Some, except for speed and shield.

Trinity: Not with the current system.

Mirage: Understandable, but doesn't work as someone pointed out LoS brings Mirage to death given low health, shots fired, and ability speed itself.

Excalibur: Most likely.

Valkyr: Most likely.

[Praxxor]

Prism is totally useless after the nerf, it can't deal high damage, CC is bad, LoS detection doesn't work most of the time, it's useless, going a max range mirage is just pointless now, and having 2/4 worthless abilities on a frame is, well, bad

[Sennera]

2 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

*Valkyr now has a massive energy drain on hysteria to counter-act people staying in it for a long time. However all it's done is push players away from Valkyr because now to be even decent with all of Valkyr's abilities and survive you require practically every stat mod.

I actually haven't noticed that much of an energy drain added to hysteria. It ramps up over time but it caps out; so long as you've got Streamline and Continuity installed it's efficient enough for practical use.

Rather than push me away from Valkyr the new changes have brought me back because there's no longer the expectation that a Valkyr player should Hysteria 24/7; instead I've focused on making Warcry/Paralysis my focus even though I'm gun focused instead of melee focused. These two abilities let her do CC in the middle of all the action, with Hysteria on reserve for when you get pissed.

I do wish they'd make Warcry move with the user for its duration like Banshee's Silence does, or at least make it re-castable. Preferably the former because it's expensive energy-wise.

[flamingblueice]

Also

1 hour ago, (PS4)youngweezy345 said:

@Stratego89 umm how bout you and the rest of the community come talk to me when you guys face lvl 1000+ enemies

That is the whole problem here my friend. People haven't played the game as much as they blabber about how broken some frame or ability is and how some frame should be nerfed to the ground. You players who play endless missions, you have my empathy. Those why don't, play them, stay for 2 hours or so, you'll realize that a lancer can do more damage than your 5 forma'd tonkor.  

42 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Yes. Thousain times yes, and I wan more nerfs.

I want Bladestorm Nerfed, I want tonkor nerfed, and I want... Erm... I guess that's all I want nerfed (at least for now)

#Nerfgazm

You should either stop playing these and with these frames, or entirely stop playing the game. 

[Stratego89]

23 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

*Valkyr now has a massive energy drain on hysteria to counter-act people staying in it for a long time. However all it's done is push players away from Valkyr because now to be even decent with all of Valkyr's abilities and survive, you require practically every stat mod.

*Then there is the whole conflict of range vs duration. Mag's polarize relies on duration for distance however only magnetize uses duration (and it does nothing once the target dies). Overload relies on range for distance and uses a small amount of duration for the effect on enemies. Out of his abilities only shock uses range, his other abilities primarily rely on duration.

Dude. LITERALLY everything you just said there is wrong... Everything. Magnetize DOES do something once the target dies. It sticks around, continues pulling people in and damaging them, and eventually explodes dealing insane damage to everything in a massive range. The bubble lasts until the cast duration ends. Duration does not affect overload AT ALL- the lockdown/CC of enemies has a DAMAGE cap. Once that damage cap is reached they are released. Shock ALSO doesn't use range at all. AT ALL. it has an INFINITE range wherever you look and the distance between enemies on the chain lightning off first hit is not affected by range either. As far as I know mag's polarize STILL is based on range, not duration. Valkyr's energy drain has HARDLY increased and has a cap that makes even just streamline enough to stay in hysteria all game as long as you keep killing people and don't just sit there afk.

LITERALLY everything you said was incorrect- not by opinions but by facts. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. Either you didn't even try them out or you didn't pay enough attention to talk about it like you did...

[ScrumpyPancakes]

Absolutely not.