ALL Healing/Energy Renewal Abilities Need A Serious Look -- Trin Is Still Queen Of Support

[Attel_Malagate]

On lundi 30 mai 2016 at 6:29 AM, -Mr.Meeseeks- said:

We have to nerf Trinity into the ground. We have to make it so those who enjoy playing support roles in team-based games need to compromise by playing Oberon or Equinox. They can't be allowed to play a frame that is specifically meant for support and absolutely have to play a hybrid of damage + support.

Yeah, sure, lets force people who don't like generic warframes to play them, I'm sure its gonna turn really @(*()$ well..................................

I want to play tank/healer and I want to continue to do so, if I'm forced to play either Oberon or Equinox, I'll just switch to Loki or Nyx, anything that has a clear role and a coherent kit,  no way I play those jack of all trades master of none frames who don't have any cohesion in their kits, you are just hating trinity players, you wan her to be as mediocre as those 2 underplayed warframes and eventually you'll get what you want: no one playing healer because they all suck.

Trinity got DESTROYED in the recent update while making bless ignore self inflicted damages would have been enough, it consistently made her only useful for EV, making her the most boring warframe to play and waiting for another nerf, this is a big middle finger to all trinity payers and mains who have seen their warframe loose 75% of her usefulness.

Keep going, make sure everyone is turned out of this game by the terrible "balance" choices of this game.

[Leonix13]

Trin got hit hard, yes... Was it needed? Yes... Was it a bit far? Yeah I'd say it was a tiny bit too much. Heres the true issue, when 2x Trins beat out all other options thats a problem, so while I believe these nerfs were a tiny bit too far I do feel they were correct.

[Annalyne]

The truth of the matter is non of the support options besides the stupidly powerful ones are any good simply because of how this game works, the enemies ability to deal damage ramps up quickly while our ability to mitigate that damage stays the same throughout, that isnt to say scaling is the only issue, Equinox and Oberon just arent that great at support when it gets right down to it, Equinox's heal needs to build up everytime you want to use it effectively, and Oberons has Travel time on top of the bulk of the healing being done over a period of time, it shouldnt be surprising people prefer the "press button to not die" frame.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Annalyne

[Fifield]

4 hours ago, nononimous said:

or Nyx, anything that has a clear role and a coherent kit

WTF is coherent about Nyx???

[Fifield]

47 minutes ago, Leonix13 said:

Trin got hit hard, yes... Was it needed? Yes... Was it a bit far? Yeah I'd say it was a tiny bit too much. Heres the true issue, when 2x Trins beat out all other options thats a problem, so while I believe these nerfs were a tiny bit too far I do feel they were correct.

She's still the most OP frame in the game and about 3x better than any other support so it's not nearly enough.

[Leonix13]

21 minutes ago, Fifield said:

She's still the most OP frame in the game and about 3x better than any other support so it's not nearly enough.

She should be the best support frame, thats her role. Its that second support slot that she should not dominate.

[Fifield]

1 minute ago, Leonix13 said:

She should be the best support frame, thats her role. Its that second support slot that she should not dominate.

Agree, but EV is still gamebreaking and the other healer frames would need insane buffs to be as good as her.

[Leonix13]

I think the issue with EV has more to do with the mod then the power itself.

[Fifield]

Just now, Leonix13 said:

I think the issue with EV has more to do with the mod then the power itself.

EV is responsible for all exploit play and nearly all P4TW.  She also has a monopoly on giving energy.

Agree, Vampire Leech is problematic.

[Leonix13]

23 minutes ago, Fifield said:

EV is responsible for all exploit play and nearly all P4TW.  She also has a monopoly on giving energy.

Agree, Vampire Leech is problematic.

Indeed, it wouldn't be an issue if there was some trade off there.

[IceColdHawk]

On 30.5.2016 at 5:51 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

Now, I'm not necessarily saying Trinity has to be nerfed more

Good thing you don't, because then you'd be very wrong.

On 30.5.2016 at 5:51 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

Energy Vampire at least should probably suffer from going negative duration

To be honest, that's long overdue. Oberon's renewal is affected properly by it too so why EV isn't, doesn't get into my head.

On 30.5.2016 at 5:51 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

What do you guys think? Do you think that Trinity should simply always be queen of all support?

What does "support" exactly mean i wonder? Queen of support? She has no crowd control and no damage buffs. Only healing, damage reduction and energy providing. But if "support" means the latter 3, or at least the healing and energy providing thing, yes of course she should be! She's the "pure" support frame after all. You can't make other heals to be as strong as trinity's. What's trinity's point to exist then?

On 30.5.2016 at 5:51 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

Does hers still need some nerf?

I don't know if sarcastic or not. Considering your quite "serious" wall of text, i take it as not. To answer your question, NO! But YES to rework!!!

On 30.5.2016 at 5:51 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

Should it be nerfed some, or should we simply add more energy regen powers to the game?

I'm not saying EV is okay in it's current state but, sure, why not? Future frames having abilities that can have a slight energy restore for the team as a side-effect could be cool. Like, someone way weaker in the pure support as trin but then instead offering some form of CC or something else like damage! Then again, side-effect. Not too MUCH! Otherwise it would be the new "EV frame".

On 30.5.2016 at 5:51 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

I've been thinking about this for some time and it isn't just that Trinity trivialized some gameplay, it's that there wasn't and there is still no reason to choose another of the support/healer frames over her.

Sorry to say this but trinity isn't fame and loved for having the best "heal". She is so popular because of her ability to keep your team's energy at MAX all the time AND because she's able to keep your team and yourself on your toes with no worries (99% bless). The reason why other healers are not picked instead of trin is not because of her heal... I could just as well bring health plates. Also oberon got a small bit of CC and proc debuff so there's that. It was all about EV and damage reduction. Not more, not less.

Hand on heart, trin wasn't in a good spot before. Instead it even got worse now. No, i'm not saying 99% bless was okay. It for sure wasn't. BUT, now, aside from solo play (as a support...), bless is only good for the healing part and this even with a capped range! There are lots of ways to heal yourself. Why ask for a frame when life strike a plates can do the same? And in a game where you'll either get tickled, heal yourself or get insta oneshotted or killed too fast for the trin to react, there's no big deal about the bless' dmg reduction anymore. So, 2 hp and bless is NO MORE. And risking your team to run around with low hp only to shortly maintain a HIGH damage reduction is a NO NO.

Trinity currently is in a spot where she's either trivializing the game or being useless and underpowered. She only had 2 niches. Keeping your team's energy at max and keeping your team in an almost god mode. Now she can only keep your teams energy at max anymore. I already mentioned how the healing part is irrelevant because of the current enemy scaling and oneshot wonders. Noone ever asks for a trin because of healing. So yeah, in the meantime where EV stays trivializing the game, blessing got nuked. Does that sound fair or like a "good" nerf to you?

All trinity needed was a Rework. At best completely from scratch. A frame that is either OP or UP (when balanced), is obviously BROKEN.

 

[-Temp0-]

On 30.05.2016 at 11:06 AM, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Also, you're mistaken about Equinox. There is one thing that elevates Equinox to Trinity's level of power: Pacify & Provoke. My build caps at 76% slow at 0 energy cost thanks to Zenurik

That is until there are some (or rather, quite a lot) enemies in range and allies aren't casting. Not to mention it's quite pathetic range, need to charge it to 76% and other things about Equinox like too many complicated things needed for it to work that in conclusion, without constant EV zenurik isn't nearly enough. It's only enough if 1. you play solo 2. even in solo and modded it to near max efficiency and not max range, leaving Equinox with no defensive mods and things like that. Having a support that relies on other support sucks **** and yeat again makes it less preferable than a trinity, even regular ev. The ability makes Equinox quite good on itself and mostly when she's alone, but it doesn't make her a good healer or support.

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All trinity needed was a Rework. At best completely from scratch. A frame that is either OP or UP (when balanced), is obviously BROKEN.

All she "needed" was a cap at blessing at best, 75, 80, 90, 95%, something. 40% if everyone else in team is more or less ok is nothing, it's lazy af nerf.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

20 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

That is until there are some (or rather, quite a lot) enemies in range and allies aren't casting. Not to mention it's quite pathetic range, need to charge it to 76% and other things about Equinox like too many complicated things needed for it to work that in conclusion, without constant EV zenurik isn't nearly enough. It's only enough if 1. you play solo 2. even in solo and modded it to near max efficiency and not max range, leaving Equinox with no defensive mods and things like that. Having a support that relies on other support sucks **** and yeat again makes it less preferable than a trinity, even regular ev. The ability makes Equinox quite good on itself and mostly when she's alone, but it doesn't make her a good healer or support.

The difference between Equinox and Trinity is that Equinox prevents danger to the squad; Trinity can only help once they've already been damaged. Personally, I'd much rather have an Equinox in the party, provided the player knows how to use her. Prevention is the best treatment and whatnot.

Also, unless I'm misunderstanding your first sentence, I think you're confusing the effects of Pacify & Provoke. Day form improves on ability cast; night form builds in response to incoming damage to the squad. Higher incoming damage = more rapid buildup. You can use self-damage to power it, too. As for the range, with Stretch and Cunning Drift, Pacify's slow aura is 25m and Mend is 29m... I wouldn't call either of those small. If you incorporate Overextended into your build, Mend will very nearly match Blessing's range, but I don't recommend that.

I'm surprised you have energy trouble with Equinox. I run an 80% efficiency/190% strength build and never have problems. Pacify turns the whole room into a slow-motion target range, so between orbs and Zenurik, I'm always brimming unless I deliberately waste a ton of energy spamming sleep or keep Mend up for like 30 seconds. What's your efficiency vs strength?

[-Temp0-]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

The difference between Equinox and Trinity is that Equinox prevents danger to the squad; 

Now.

Even so, range on Equinox is crap and it consumes way too much energy so the point remains.

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Higher incoming damage = more rapid buildup.

I confused nothing. Try to pull out that build up not in the void with it's steady level progression but in the raid. Enemies are already lvl 80-100 right after you spawned. And even tho you can use angstrum to deal self-damage in the beginning of the mission and be safe for a while, once you go down - and you will go down if your energy simply runs out or if you'll get hit by napalm or ballista that were outside your pacify range it will not only annihilate you but chances are - major part of the team as well once you're out of the fight. 

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I'm surprised you have energy trouble with Equinox. 

I have none while I'm alone. It's different with the team that casts abilities non-stop and you should remember that you will have 4 to 8 people on the raid. Where Bless Trinity was mostly used and can no longer be used effectively. That's where problems really starts, not in the star chat missions, not even in the long void runs or sorties or tactical alerts where you still can simply pick Loki or tank all the damage. You should also remember that your "whole room" applies mostly to the tilesets in the void and star chat (where 30-35m range will  be good enough) because rooms in the raids are gigantic open space (and even with 250% range pacify is only 40m even if we forget that more range > lesser str > and we need a decent power str> crappy power efficiency), they're basically always more than 50m and some of the teammates will always be outside your range. As well as some enemies will be outside your pacify range. And pacify will basically be nothing there unless you have at least 2 Equinox palyers and even then it will suck. 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

3 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Now.

Even so, range on Equinox is crap and it consumes way too much energy so the point remains.

I confused nothing. Try to pull out that build up not in the void with it's steady level progression but in the raid. Enemies are already lvl 80-100 right after you spawned. And even tho you can use angstrum to deal self-damage in the beginning of the mission and be safe for a while, once you go down - and you will go down if your energy simply runs out or if you'll get hit by napalm or ballista that were outside your pacify range it will not only annihilate you but chances are - major part of the team as well once you're out of the fight.

Yes, now. Its energy consumption at -20% efficiency is 0.6 per enemy. I barely notice the drain even when I'm slowing ten enemies.

That's why you bring someone who can nullify incoming damage, like Rhino or Valkyr. The range is just slightly outside effective enemy fire range, so it does its job perfectly well for anyone near Equinox. The only points where you'll struggle to cover the squad are the LED board puzzle, and the final battle. But that's a moot point, because Trin can't cover the whole squad now anyway (unless she stays on the center platform and never moves, in which case she's going to need a Frost).

3 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

It's different with the team that casts abilities non-stop 

This is what I meant when I said I think you're confusing the ability's functions. Ally casts only affect day form's 3. Night form's 3 responds to incoming damage. The two drains do not occur simultaneously.

And let's be clear: these problems only become problems in nightmare raids. Normal LoR is a cakewalk.

[-Temp0-]

Just now, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

And let's be clear: these problems only become problems in nightmare raids. Normal LoR is a cakewalk.

On the contrary. It's mostly in normal LoR and JV obviously.

People that doing nm are usually raid veterans, not ...... in general. They also don't expect anyone to carry them or guide or anything like that. They know mostly what tehy should do and what they should avoid doing.

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That's why you bring someone who can nullify incoming damage, like Rhino or Valkyr.

You wot mate. Bring healer + damage res frame ... only for the rest of the team to use tanks anyway. And CC and other support frames still will be skrewed. That's not a raid, it's a shtshow.

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But that's a moot point, because Trin can't cover the whole squad now anyway (unless she stays on the center platform and never moves, in which case she's going to need a Frost).

Nerfing damage reduction AND range at the same time for the only effective healer/res support in the game is worst nerf in this bunch of the nerfs so far. The whole point of the recent hate is exacly her "now" state of being. Unless they cap damage reduction higher, making it at least 75-80% + either allow to mod for range or remove that dumb range restriction I don't even want to bother playing. Especially won't bother to play support frames like Equinox or Banshee there because people don't understand how their powers work (and this is why it's basically pointless to ask others to use them) as well as don't care or understand that you need anergy asap which results in you using all of your energy restores while others are barely doing anything at all. This is especially sucks for Banshee as you need at least 2 energy restores to replenish your energy and by the time you'll do that someone will get killed. Not to mention that no one wants to use Banshee and no one wants to use energy restores - and that means no one will help you even if you can bring Banshee yourself or pick another one that could make a real difference. 

[DrBorris]

I don't think we need too many Healing frames, health is trivial enough as it is. However, it shouldn't be a Trinity monopoly.

 

• Making Oberon a healer to compete with Trinity is easy, just make it so Renewal does NOT toggle off once you are topped off. This would make him, in a sense, superior to Trinity in keeping his allies at high health but Trin will still be the best "Oh Sh!t" healer (along with healing shields).
• I think Inaros is fine as he is, his main role is as a Tank, the healing is just a side thing. I feel like the healing was put in almost more for Inaros' sake than for his team's.
• Then Nezha is... kind of stupid. I don't really see how it applies to her kit to have healing but whatever, better than nothing.
• Limbo's augment should just add a DoT of health regen while in the rift. It would not make him a "healer", but would make his healing a bit less spamy.
• Equinox should be the third frame to make a nice healing trio. IMO, Mend should have a DoT of healing while in its range.
• You worded Nekros' state pretty perfectly.

 

Just buff Oberon's and Equinox's healing and the monopoly should be broken.

 

[(XBOX)PompousNinja156]

Honestly, this entire discussion was started off a faulty premise.

Of course Trinity the best at her niche, because no other frame has the same niche as her. As I said in a thread I made a while back, this is like Comparing all the Final Fantasy jobs then complaining that White Mages are pushing out Red, Black, and Blue mages because none of them can heal as well as they can.

We can discuss Trinity outpermoning Equinox at healing & keeping teammates alive when the entire Day Form aspect of her kit is deleted and she stops packing twice as many abilities as Trinity, and as an aside, never complain about other damage frames outdamaging Day Form unless Night Form is deleted. Equinox is the jack of all trades, the mid-fielder, not a pure support frame like Trinity is. Having the option of switching to a support/offense frame based on what her squad needs, in the middle of the mission mind you, makes her the better overall frame than Trinity anyway.

Limbo has long been suffering from being a failed delivery on a neat idea. His kit is clunky, the Rift is clunky, he has no way to place a bunch of enemies in the rift outside of Cataclysm, and no way of actually controlling the flow of the fight once he puts them there anyway. We'll need to have him get a more solid kit in his rework before we even continue discussing him, let alone comparing him to frames not suffering from a severely disjointed kit.

Oberon is objectively worse than Limbo. Limbo knows what he wants to be, but has difficulty actually doing it. Oberon is stuck in some odd place where he wants to be a Paladin but is lacking the defensive stats and skills needed to do his job, but also wants to be a druid, but lackin the energy pool of the other casters and part of his kit trying to be Paladin instead of Druid. He needs an even bigger touch up than Limbo and DE needs to choos whether he's the Paladin or He's the Druid, because this "Being Both" thing is unhealthy for him, and until they tackle that massive mlnster of a rework, keep in mind that comparing ANYTHING to Oberon, except maybe the MK-1 Starter Weapons, makes it look broken. Comparing Trinity to Oberon? That's like the chick who's at best a 7 sticking by girls who score below a 5. Put side by side against her less attractive pals? If that's your frame of reference, Yeah, she can pass higher than she is, just don't forget what you're comparing her to.

Inaros should be in the (ALL ARMOR BUFFS/DAMAGE REDUCTION SKILLS NEED A SERIOUS LOOK -- X FRAME IS STILL THE KING/QUEEN OF TANKING) Thread, not this one.

Nezha belongs in whatever odd niche Rhino is in right now since the two are similar.