Is warframe turning into a third person shooter?

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

7 hours ago, Lakais said:

I don't get where people come up with these ideas and opinions... The only explanation I have to people thinking that these changes are bad are those who consider cheesing overleveled broken parts of the game as the ONLY part of the game. What? You're NOT SUPPOSED to be fighting enemies at level 60, not to mention 100. So you can? Woop, good for you. But once the enemy levels reach 40, you are on your own. Yeah we got Sorties, but those are basically DE throwing a "sanctioned bone" to tryhards. And even THEN these tryhards complain. I respect what the tryhards do, it's not something I will do, and I think it's stupid, but in a way I respect their dedication. I just want to slap them when the discussion takes a turn about actually accommodating them in their broken part of the game and making it into something the devs should focus on.

Also, warframes are not ninjas. They never HAVE been ninjas. When i think of a "ninja", the image I get is that of Sam Fisher in the early Splinter Cell games or JC Denton and Adam Jensen in stealth playthroughs. They can take out numerically superior enemies not because of POWAH! But because of careful planning, manipulation and exploitation of the situation and environment. Through intelligence, subtlety and patience. 

Tenno, on the other hand, have the subtlety and covert capacity of a televised broadcast of an ICBM launch and the following nuke strike. We're clowns, very lethal clowns, but clowns still. We're the embodiment of Joker turned up to 420. 

The real enemies are the drop rotation AAB and C, the drop rate percentage, and the clutter in the drop table. Everything else is simply filler. You call them try hards for killing level 100s, but in reality it's simply they are in the way of those last few minutes for C and everyone just going back to their lisets to play something else either empty handed, or with that system needed to make whatever prime variant they are hunting. 

[(PSN)SupeBoss]

They gave us the ability to spam and they are regretting it.

Ev trinity, pocket energy pizzas, zenurik, constant orb drops, Nekros, Primed Flow, Fleeting Expertise, etc

In a game like this....if we're being honest....I should not be able to use my ULTIMATE POWER 30-50 times in a row. But they allowed (and enabled) it.... don't blame the players for using it now that it's come to bite you in the rear end.

 

[DrBorris]

Yes, because the recent set of nerfs is a clear indication that DE wants our abilities to be useless because these nerfs made all of the frames' abilities involved completely useless as compared to guns. 

 

Jumping to conclusions much?

 

Also, Warframe is just as much about the guns as it is about the Warframes. 

[(PSN)horridhal]

43 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

It's about balance, if you never have to use your gun or sword, then powers are too potent/easy. If you never use your powers and only shoot/stab, then powers are too weak/hard to use.

Why?

Feel free to explain how having powers as a viable option to gunplay, and having melee as a viable option to both, is a bad thing.  Hint : It isn't.  The game allowed for several play styles with the frames that were nerfed.  The problem is people, like yourself, whined incessantly that another player was doing things they didn't enjoy and down came the nerf bat.

[Gelkor]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Why?

Feel free to explain how having powers as a viable option to gunplay, and having melee as a viable option to both, is a bad thing.  Hint : It isn't.  The game allowed for several play styles with the frames that were nerfed.  The problem is people, like yourself, whined incessantly that another player was doing things they didn't enjoy and down came the nerf bat.

Excuse me?

Please find posts where I've whined about power spam as a bad thing?  Go ahead, I'll wait.  

I enjoy being able to spam powers or go melee only ( though prefer melee only augmented by power use) as much as the next guy, but I understand where DE is coming from with wanting us to use a blend of styles at all times to adapt to situations. 

I'm merely clarifying my perception of the developer's intent as I've witnessed it through the years since I first started playing.  Can the attitude kid, I'm not here to fight, just pointing out that OP's assertion that they developers are trying to turn this into a shooter with no powers is patently fallacious. 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Gelkor

[(PSN)horridhal]

9 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Please find posts where I've whined about power spam as a bad thing?  Go ahead, I'll wait.

I just did.

When you say, "If you never have to use a gun then powers are too potent," as you did in the post I quoted, you are complaining about the powers.

10 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

I'm merely clarifying my perception of the developer's intent as I've witnessed it through the years since I first started playing.

Except nothing in your post indicates you are doing anything other than stating your personal opinion on the design.

11 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

just pointing out that OP's assertion that they developers are trying to turn this into a shooter with no powers is patently fallacious. 

Her never said with "no powers."

[Gelkor]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

I just did.

When you say, "If you never have to use a gun then powers are too potent," as you did in the post I quoted, you are complaining about the powers.

Except nothing in your post indicates you are doing anything other than stating your personal opinion on the design.

Her never said with "no powers."

My apologies then, let me clarify, this is the kind of things DE has said time and again on devstreams, I don't necessarily 100% agree with it all the time, in fact I'm one of the first people to complain about practically all of the bosses being a middle finger to melee-enthusiasts like myself (and that's a problem with boss and encounter design, not other players).  Personally, I don't give a wit if people spam powers or not, I play almost exclusively solo, so no, I'm not "one of the people "whin[ing] incessantly that another player was doing things they didn't enjoy and down came the nerf bat."

Edited June 5, 2016 by Gelkor

[(PSN)horridhal]

Just now, Gelkor said:

My apologies then, let me clarify, this is the kind of things DE has said time and again on devstreams, I don't necessarily 100% agree with it all the time, in fact I'm one of the first people to complain about practically all of the bosses being a middle finger to melee-enthusiasts like myself.  Personally, I don't give a wit if people spam powers or not, I play almost exclusively solo, so no, I'm not "one of the people "whin[ing] incessantly that another player was doing things they didn't enjoy and down came the nerf bat."

That's fine.  I took your post at face value and, if you aren't one of the people I was referencing, so be it.  I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.  That said, I think we can agree that was a large part of the reasoning behind some of these nerfs.

[Gelkor]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

That's fine.  I took your post at face value and, if you aren't one of the people I was referencing, so be it.  I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.  That said, I think we can agree that was a large part of the reasoning behind some of these nerfs.

Not as much as you'd think. DE tends to rely on a lot of background metrics of use vs disuse. It's less what people say and more what they do, and if certain frames or abilities are trivializing what should be challenging content. I recall February last year or so where they published a metric of "most used frames and powers" and Miasma was something like, 70% of all powers used in the game for that month, with Radial Javeline next up.  Next thing you know a few months later Saryn combo changes and Excalibur Rework. 

The big thing consistently they change is they don't like powers you can stand in one spot spamming ala "homer drinking bird" which, frankly, I don't care either way, my only dislike for it is in public survival matches people demand I stand in a corner with them so they can do it as opposed to free-roaming, if I'm gonna camp I'll do intercept or defense. Valkyr changes were mostly superfluous and didn't actually do much to change Hysteria-Narrowminded Vakyr builds.  Excalibur change to damage falloff is fair IMO, but the energy drain on radial spin blind is too harsh a penalty for such a terrible ability and neither are the result of players complaining, but of DE looking at the numbers and what they intended for the frame. Swordsman-Frame =/= Fully Automatic Fluctus.  Though I do want to have a Fluctus in regular Warframe mode now. 

[Enno69]

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

More and more, it just seems like what they are moving toward. Missions will rotate into and out of existence on limited nodes...which means basically that you might log in and on higher level planets only have Rescue, Defense and Spy available...

At which point, of course, I log out and uninstall Warframe for good.

I hope I am wrong. I do. But...I wouldnt put it past them. 

As for making money from it: It would limit even more the access to certain loot. Which means more plat trading. Which means more cash spent on Plat. 

DE has proven time and again their primary focus with Warframe is driving Plat sales, not player enjoyment. I am...not hopeful about the Starmap Rework.

No offense, but such a change really would not make any sense. First, it would drive players off, and the devs obviously don't want that. Second, with few exceptions such as the Miter, there is no special loot on the starchart, no prime part or stuff, just the common ressources and cores ; how would that lead to "more plat trading" ?

And the point about DE being driven by greed instead of player enjoyment, that's just dishonesty, sorry. First off, WF is an excellent model of FtP, where you don't have to spend a cent to enjoy the game (or get bored^^) as much as the paying tennos. Then, there are countless examples of the devs listening to feedback and trying to make things rights or better, in many different subjects. Sometimes the execution is flawed, and the game overall still has serious issues, but their job isn't easy after all. It will all come in due time. We have to see the glass as half-full. I mean, in the latest patch they reverted the Hek's sound back to its original version due to players asking for it, even though they thought the new sound fitted better. Why would they do that if they didn't care about us ?

[(PSN)horridhal]

42 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

It's less what people say and more what they do, and if certain frames or abilities are trivializing what should be challenging content.

You'd have a point if it weren't for skills like Bladestorm still existing.  They aren't going solely off metrics of usage because, if they were, that one would be up there for a rework.  Heck, Ember has had WoF in its current state for over a year and that is one of the least interactive abilities in the game.  No one complains about it, at least not en masse, so it remains untouched.

 

As I said in several other places, it isn't that I was against these reworks.  I simply don't like being given them when, for 3+ years, the root cause of needing those sorts of powers is entirely ignored.  It wasn't until the backlash they received from this specific update that the enemy scaling became their priority.  We then get a plea directly from DE saying "Just give us time and we'll fix it."  Well, to be frank, you've had 3+ years to fix it and haven't done ANYTHING regarding it.  Track record shows that isn't going to change any time soon.

[(XBOX)Rey Za BurreI]

14 hours ago, tripletriple said:

One of my favourite things to do in Warframe was go into any tileset and start decimating my enemies with my abilities.

I loved the feeling of my powers being over the top, flashy and overall fun to use. I like shooting and using melee too but that felt like icing on the cake. The game, after all is named after our frames that have these powers and abilities.

In come the nerfs to excalibur and the others and suddenly it feels like DE doesn't want us to win with powers but more so with just using our guns to blast our enemies instead. For example mags polarize scaling has been destroyed. She now relies on magnetize and a gun or melee weapon to do her damage.

Granted some abilities are too powerful but the ones that are underwhelming don't get a balance pass at all. Trinitys  well of life has been terrible for three years! It hasn't been adjusted yet. They need to nerf where it is needed sure but where is the balance check for all the bad powers? Chroma's breath is still terrible.

It seems like any power that has any type of power to kill enemies up to higher levels needs to go. What about people who like using powers? Why is volt an alternative to gunplay when his ultimate has a damage cap and it's simply more effeciency to shoot at enemies behind the shield? I don't see why percentage on abilities can't be a thing. I hate that embers fire ball falls off or ne zha and his fire walker are just better suited to augment a run and gun play style.

Is DE trying to make this a gun game?

Well technically it has and always will be.

[Abenoki]

Warframe IS a third person shooter >.> 

 

Tps =\= only guns and no powers, I'm really not sure where you got that idea

 

Also, sure some abilities haven't seen love, and Nerf's suck, that doesn't mean they want to get rid of powers/diminish them come on now x3

[(PSN)BrutalReaper32]

8 hours ago, Superkoco said:

DE wants to kill nuker frames, like Saryn or Mag before reworks. Mag and Saryn are better now? maybe, but in 6 months of public sorties and t4 i can´t remember a single Saryn playing it. Before rework, i saw 1-2 Mag in every corpus Sortie, 10 days after reworks, 0 Mags.

 

Of course in this game, most of people will always stick to the META. 
Obviously you can still complete any sortie solo or in a squad with Saryn easily if you know how to use her, but there are most efficient options out there, and as I said, people mostly use the best options. (it doesn't matter if other warframes can do missions easily, they just want the best option).
As I play on PS4, I can't say anything about Mag, but I complete every sortie with saryn, and I outscore ash and mirages in kills because bladestorm and mirage + simulor combo in fact have syngergy with my spores, and their abilities end up feeding mine lol.
When I solo sorties, I just combine spores with gas based weapons and I'm good to go.

[(XBOX)Drunken Swede]

If DE wasn't interested in making Warframe more of a shooter then they probably wouldn't release cheese weapons like the Tonkor every other update while simultaneously nerfing abilities.

Or so it would seem.

Volt, for example, is going to receive a new Ultimate that basically turns enemies in to walking lightning rods that shock each other if I'm not mistaken.

[CxLL]

I'm a bit confused as there are sources indicating that warframe already is... that.

Other than which, you can fully bypass any and all guns if you don't want to use them. Speaking from experience.

[Krymanol]

I think that what DE is doing is trying to make sure that players need to think more, strategize more, make better choices and actively play the game instead of just press a button and win.   So they are nerfing all the frames and abiltiies that allow you to just press a button, sit back and watch everything die.

However, There are easier and better ways to go about controlling abilties and frames that are too powerful and nerfing them is or should be the very last resort.   Unfortunately DE hasn't tried any of the following yet before they jump on the nerf or rebalance bandwagon...

 

1.  Introduce abilitiy cooldowns as that is one of the most effective ways to control how much a player can dominate with strong abilities.   Honestly the only reason anything in any game is considered OP is because either you can use it too much or you get an advantage that is beyond what others can have.   In warframe, the first one is the main issue, not the second.  Everyone has some ability that is OP and all of the ones that are considered universally OP are only that because there is truly no limit to using abilities in this game.   We have energy pools but it does nothing to help balance.  Having abilities go on cooldowns or use cooldowns in some unique interactive way would be a much more effective way to balance abilities in this game.  Because the way end game is made, we truly need the power of these abilities and not nerfed versions of them that make it tedious to maintain or use them.  

 

2. Energy cost for powers is poorly implemented in this game and it's the other half of the reason why OP powers are actually OP in the first place.   For example...

• 500+ energy pools
• energy orbs dropping everywhere normally and increased through ability usage
• mods that let us reduce energy cost by 75%
• At the same time, mods and auras that allow us to regen energy faster than the cost of using most abilities.
• various ways through game play to instantly regen, restore full or near full energy (death orbs, trinity with 1 second full energy restores, limbo with regen so fast that you never run out no matter how much your abilties cost to use and so on).

See when you have infinite energy at your disposal at every turn, any ability instantly becomes OP because it gives you advantages on a permanent basis that you would normally not have or shouldn't be intended to have.  Especially when the A.I. you face isn't designed well enough to account for you having access to permanent energy and ability usage.   So It's like giving players a infinite energy hack or similar to a hacker using a infinite ammo hack on a game with a no-reload option.    I mean I know it's a trend these days to develop games with built in hacks (radar pulses = wall hacks, auto-aim = aimbot, teleporting, superspeed...you name it, all games have built in hacks these days)...but when you do this, you breed a generation of players who feel entitled to have such and when you don't give it to them or you take some of that power away, it sours them on your game.   But when you actually focus on balancing things like energy cost, you don't have to nerf the things players actually find fun to use.

 

3. Make enemies more formidable and smarter.  What I mean is instead of making all these immunity phases on bosses and other enemies where powers won't work, simply make enemies counter things that players do if a player does the same thing too much.  

For example, DE has put in things like Stalker debuffing you when you use powers, teleporting you back when you run away.  This actually made stalker a bit more fun (or scary for some) to fight compared to his other version where you just nuked him in 2 seconds with just about any gun as he showed up.     If normal enemies played smarter like this new stalker and randomly counter what players do sometimes, it would make players do more than just build around OP abilities and spam one button all the time.   If enemies could randomly start reflecting Exalted blade back at you, you won't spam it at them for 2 straight hours in survival mode.     But because all enemies do is eat your damage like a punching bag, well guess what, players will spam to their hearts content because it's more effective way of killing due to the power of the ability, no cooldown restrictions, no energy limitations that are truly effective enough and no A.I. who can smartly counter it from time to time.

 

4.  While making builds, mods and auras, you should actually give them a negative effect equal to their positive effects.   Corrupt mods are a good design until DE started making primed mods which totally negate the negative effects of them.  I mean they would have been better off just taking the negative effects off corrupt mods if primed mods were to be created.   But with corrupt mods, at one time you ended up with a major nerf to one or more abilties when using them on a frame.  If you modded to counter all the negative effects of corrupt mods, you ended up with a slightly better than average set of abilties, but none of them were super powerful enough for endless missions.  To be powerful enough for tougher content, you had to focus on one, two or maybe three (if you were lucky) abilities when using corrupt mods.    In my opinion, no game should give you power without a drawback because that's how you truly balance a game.   So like when you can use a mod to reduce the energy cost of casting an ability, the actual power, duration or range of the ability should take a drastic hit equal to the positive gain and you should not be able to mod or build so that negative effect is completely erased...reduced a little maybe, but not completely negated.  

 

So the mod design in this game is all built so that in the end, all builds you make end up with being able to minimize the negative effects of modding to a point where it doesn't even matter what kind of negative effect you have in the first place.   Like if my duration goes down for using a mod, I can just counter it with a primed mod.   IT's things like that which creates balance issues and why this game can't have a good end game that doesn't revolve around power creep and adjusting for it from time to time.

 

Now I could go on with more ways to look at balance because the game has many flaws as far as balance goes but I don't feel the need to.  For the longest time this game was thought to be a simple game of total mass destruction...but now it feels like  they want to slow things down too much, focus on ability setup and it does make players feel like they have to rely on guns and melee a bit more than before.   I can't say that's the case for the majority of players, but I can say that for me and some others.   

Going back to the Snow Globe, M.Prime and Blessing rebalances, I didnt realize it at the time, but today I look back and notice I started losing interest in the game a bit.   I mean when blessing got changed, I stopped playing trinity which was my favorite frame and I moved on to playing nekros, vauban, rhino, mag and nyx primarily.   So since blessing change, I probably haven't put in more than 10 hours on trinity since when of the couple thousand hours I have in this game, she probably had half of them before then.   Don't get me wrong, I wasn't relying on blessing to be OP as it was.  IT's just that I loved having my "OH Crap" button when I got in a pinch or teammates needed saving.   Now it's to much micromanagement with blessing and it takes away from me being able to have fun with gun play and support at the same time.   Now I gotta watch timers and manage health/shield bars instead of focusing on what the enemy in front of me is doing.  So while blessing may have needed to be addressed, not a single person I seen at the time was complaining about it like we all were complaining about well  of life, which I'd probably say is the least used ability in the whole game.     

So in my opinion, there are many things DE can do to create balance in the game and not actually nerfing abilities or changing them to some new and often bad or tedious mechanic to manage which does take the fun out of playing some frames.   I mean almost every game out has some kind of cooldown or power usage restrictions to gate powerful abilties and balance is far better in such games than in games that have no such limitations.

 

I'd rather have extreme powerful abiltiies that I have to pick and choose wisely when to use them rather than some nerfed versions I can still spam non-stop without any important drawbacks or restrictions.

 

Edited June 6, 2016 by Krymanol

[(PSN)Draconis1981]

with all the power nerfs and the squishy frames that are some shadows of their former selves the way of the gun is king these days.

[bkbkfk]

Back in my day (a few months after closed beta ended), we only used warframe abilities as a last resort, or when fighting bosses. The rest of the time? Gun and blade. Remember? The whole ninja aspect of the game? I mean, sure, the gorgon isn't exactly ninja-like, but neither is trinity's lobster tail, nor rhino's iron skin. Or frost's snow globe. Or mesa's gun storm turret mode. (The list goes on). Point is, this game has been and always will be a mixture of genres. Ninjas and the stealth/parkour that goes with it, gun and sword play, and all the magical abilities too.

[residente]

6 minutes ago, bkbkfk said:

Back in my day (a few months after closed beta ended), we only used warframe abilities as a last resort, or when fighting bosses. The rest of the time? Gun and blade. Remember? The whole ninja aspect of the game? I mean, sure, the gorgon isn't exactly ninja-like, but neither is trinity's lobster tail, nor rhino's iron skin. Or frost's snow globe. Or mesa's gun storm turret mode. (The list goes on). Point is, this game has been and always will be a mixture of genres. Ninjas and the stealth/parkour that goes with it, gun and sword play, and all the magical abilities too.

Pretty much this. Warframe was originally a 3rd person shooter. We used abilities as a pain button to deal with strong enemies. Since then the game has turned more and more in favour of abilities and infinite energy.

[DzeraDragonbane]

On 6/5/2016 at 11:37 AM, thegamer118 said:

It s not about nerfing powers that are too effective, but nerfing powers that forces cheese, for example Trinity s blessing used to wrok on who had the lowest health pool to give the maximum damage reduction, well what did players do ? they used quick thinking and nuked themselves, and then gave 99% damage reduc to the team

Excalibur used to endorce turret play, in which you stayed in one place and blasted away with super high damage blades from afar, DE doesn t just nerf things because they re good, but in fact nerf things to force players to be in check and stop cheesing in ways that the devs don t like that s it

Exactly. Of all the nerfs that any player can complain about, the exalted blade nerf shouldn't be one to complain about. Excal is now a melee frame. It was weirder when a melee frame kills enemies from far away which is the exact opposite of a melee frame.

Edited June 6, 2016 by DzeraDragonbane

[Toppien]

On 4/6/2016 at 10:49 PM, (PS4)xKAIOWAx said:

Some guys never will sleep until warframe became a generic version of gears of wars or other type of simple shooter

 

in all seriousness, thats not even close to true, at all