Lets discuss the nullifiers

[DatDarkOne]

This is one of the things that confuses me that some are saying.  I'm able to decrease the bubble and kill a nullifier in about 3 or 4 shots with a bow.  Notice what I said.  A BOW.  I'm trying my best not to use the term "Git Gud" with some of these arguments, but it's getting harder and harder not to say.  Not a reflection on you SupeBoss. 

Then there's the "It's lore breaking", that one just sounds like a trumped up excuse to get rid of something you don't like.  I've fought them solo and with a group.  You know what happened each time, each nullifier died rather quickly.  I'm not saying that I'm this Uber gamer, but I'm just not seeing why some seem to have so much trouble with this enemy.  Correction, I don't see how some are having trouble that aren't doing a Leeroy Jenkins. 

I have said previously that they could use some tweaks/reworks.  Which has been ignored by those who just feel that I'm blindly defending nullifiers.  I'm not defending anything.  I am more annoyed by these tired arguments of nerf this, removed this without any serious thought toward constructive critique for DE to use. 

Just something to think about.  Maybe I'm just too much of an Old Skool Gamer.  I remember when Nerf was a damn football. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added content

[TheBrsrkr]

6 hours ago, ElCorintio said:

Well, if we look deep in to this a little bit... Grineer had wipe power technology loooong time before any nullifier. 

In what form? No boss or enemy unit of the Grineer wipes powers. Manics ignore them for the most part, with no real explanation,  but they came after nullifiers. Tyl had the indestructible over shields backpack (was that Tyl or Kril?) which blocked everything, not just powers, and the other one just piled on the physical barrier so high in a cybersuit that blocked everything the same as the first. 

 

6 hours ago, ElCorintio said:

. And they have Fomorians too... So, Grineer technology looks rusty and dull on outside, but actually it's pretty sophisticated.
 

Not quite. How big something is tells you nothing about how sophisticated it is. All a Formorian is amounts to a big ship, with a giant laser attached. There's nothing else that defines it. It's still just a giant laser, with no practical applications to the ground forces, as shown by ground troops still using bullets instead of lasers. The Corpus, however, pride themselves on their technological advancement, as seen by their weapons, proxies and highly varied units with multiple roles,all automated. 

 

6 hours ago, VoidNomade said:

You said that lore wise lotus would could/would not attack this tech because of the cepahlon quote where i said that we already have a example of how lotus act when she knows about war game changers, i delivered perfect clones as example. And it´s simple logic that such a tech would be known by lotus and she would try to sabotage and/or destroy it, or are you really arguing she can´t/wouldn´t?!

You forget that the Grineer have much, much less information to transport and relay since they're less advanced than the Corpus and any outliers in technological scanning would immediately be picked up as oddities. But you're forgetting the most important thing, Tyl basically tried to rub it in our faces. 

 

6 hours ago, VoidNomade said:

The category "war game changer" is also applied to nullify tech. So don´t please try to argue in a semantic way which tech is more blabla than bla..

It's harder to find a needle in a needle stack than a needle in a bucket of water. 

 

6 hours ago, VoidNomade said:

..

You could only argue if nullify tech is a war game changer or not.

I don't apply arbitrary terms to this, sorry. 

[VoidNomade]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

It's harder to find a needle in a needle stack than a needle in a bucket of water. 

 

I don't apply arbitrary terms to this, sorry. 

What ever mate.

*moves on*

[ElCorintio]

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

In what form? No boss or enemy unit of the Grineer wipes powers. Manics ignore them for the most part, with no real explanation,  but they came after nullifiers. Tyl had the indestructible over shields backpack (was that Tyl or Kril?) which blocked everything, not just powers, and the other one just piled on the physical barrier so high in a cybersuit that blocked everything the same as the first. 

 

Not quite. How big something is tells you nothing about how sophisticated it is. All a Formorian is amounts to a big ship, with a giant laser attached. There's nothing else that defines it. It's still just a giant laser, with no practical applications to the ground forces, as shown by ground troops still using bullets instead of lasers. The Corpus, however, pride themselves on their technological advancement, as seen by their weapons, proxies and highly varied units with multiple roles,all automated. 

 

 

Lol, the answer has always been in front of you... In the form of a freaking door...

And let me tell you, you are low balling the Fomorian right there. And using that kind of intellectual dishonesty you can reduce every concept to it's minimum expression;

Razorback it's just a big cuadrpet machine with guns

[TheBrsrkr]

8 hours ago, ElCorintio said:

Lol, the answer has always been in front of you... In the form of a freaking door...

A door that does magnetic damage does not nullify powers. It reduces energy. These are not the same thing. 

 

8 hours ago, ElCorintio said:

And let me tell you, you are low balling the Fomorian right there. And using that kind of intellectual dishonesty you can reduce every concept to it's minimum expression;

What defines the Formorian from a regular Grineer Galleon? The laser. If you took away the laser from a Formorian, it would just be a bigger Galleon. Do the same to the Corpus. Take away the lasers and you have.... MOAs, various shields, drones and better alarm systems. More importantly, why do you think having one giant laser makes the Grineer as technologically advanced as the Corpus, who use lasers for literally everything they do? I'm pretty sure they can build a Formorian themselves, since they had to sell the resources to the Grineer (or get it stolen, you know how it is), the simple fact is that they don't want to because they're not the warlike race the Grineer are. 

8 hours ago, ElCorintio said:

;Razorback it's just a big cuadrpet machine with guns

It is. It's still more advanced than the Grineer. It has regular applications to the Corpus in the form of Bursas, basically mini Razorbacks. That one unit gave the Corpus 3 devastating additions to their arsenal, and we can't even kill it without using their own proxies against them. 

[arch111]

I wonder if the Orokin had this tech. Like void-stopping collars or something to stop the Tenno going berzerk.

[Lakais]

I don't see any reason why nullifiers should be removed. Tweaked, yes but not removed. They are annoying, but so are energy drain eximi and just like eximi, nullifiers are not gamebreaking. The main problem with their bubble is that it acts both as a bullet sponge AND an ability counter. Lets also not forget that Infested have far more dangerous enemies in far more numbers that are just as if not more annoying then a damn Nullifier. Ancients, they can F- you up if you get the least bit unlucky regardless of your weapon loadout. Disruptors not only drain your energy, they also debuff you for a few seconds so you can't collect any energy. Toxics can cough on you and kill you dead through all your shields and healers are just massive pains in the neck. All of these much more numerous but for some reason people don't get all fissy about them because they are good at one thing, rather then being full on "nothing past this point". 

Possible Nullifier reworks:

Rather then a shield, it's a short duration debuff "shockwave" ability. Essentially they sneak in with groups of enemies and unless the player pulls his head out of his backside and actually presents some situational awareness, they risks getting "susprise motherf*cker!"-ed by a nullifier going hadouken and shutting down abilites for... 3-5 seconds. For example. Bonus points if they cut energy gain, meaning you can't pick up energy orbs or receive energy in general for the duration of the debuff. 

 Second option: the bubble does not block projectiles at all. Essentially acting as a visible, clearly defined anti-ability field. But since they now lack that little bit of defense, they'd need to be tanked up a bit. Bonus would also be energy drain if you are in the bubble. Though this is redundant as we have combas that do this with a bit more finesse. 

The idea with these is simple: Punish the player if they drop the ball. If you just blindly spam abilities or melee (as some frames do) without any sort of consideration to your surroundings and enemy composition, you get slapped. Simple. Nowhere is it said that DE should hold your bloody hand and whisper sweet encouragements to us while we go on murder sprees. The least DE needs to do is make us put some kind of active effort into the whole debacle other then choosing the defined cookie cutter min-maxed FoTM mod loadout and riding it to sunset. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Lakais

[polarity]

I don't want nullifiers to go, because if you aren't some turret mode scrub, and actually move around in the game, they can be a lot of fun.  I will accept that they do need some work though:

1. No stacked bubbles.  This could be done one of 2 ways:

• Both bubbles drop when they contact each other.  This would need the crewman AI to be tweaked so they avoid walking into each other, but entering a bubble and ragdolling one nullifier into others would be a new mechanic for dealing with them, to reward entering their bubbles.
• One randomly selected bubble goes down when they contact each other.
• (This no-stacking rule should also be applied to things like sapping ospreys, so that while they can still carpet an area, they can't stack their mines to cause ridiculous levels of damage).

2. Complete rework of how they affect abilities:

• Self-buffs and channeled abilities should be deactivated while inside the bubble, but reactivated upon leaving (eg. World on Fire, Link). Timers keep running, but channeling energy use is suspended.  To put it simply, what happens outside the bubble, stays outside the bubble.
• non-channeled AoE abilities that were activated while outside should still have their effects active upon entering (eg. MPrime).  Bubbles should not remove any statuses, unless the target actually moves into the bubble.
• Ability activation should remain impossible inside the bubble.  Learn to shoot/melee your targets instead of just hitting buttons.  You should be rewarded for entering the bubble by having it made so easy to take down the bubble/crewman, that you don't need to use energy, or even ammunition (se below).

3. Keep the actual crewman weak (one shot for any half decently modded weapon, regardless of scaling), although his bubble may scale.  This ensure players will always have the ability to take down the bubble quickly, so long as they enter it.  It would also give those using 'better tactics' the chance to enter, knockdown everything, take out the crewman, then exit, regardless of the level of other enemies in there.

4. Special case for sniper weapons: Raise the damage cap per shot for sniper weapons, so that they can take down the bubbles faster than other weapon types (so that one shot would shrink the bubble by 2 stages, instead of just 1).  This gives players a reason to use sniper weapons.

Edited June 11, 2016 by polarity

[giglyfoot]

You can hear a nullifier coming LONGGGG before you see it. How are you not able to adapt to you surroundings and deal with the nullifier? This is a STRATEGY game after all. Warframe is not just some random shoot-em-up game. We are NINJAS in SPACE!!! The 'lore' of ninjas says that they had anything they could possibly need in their arsenal for any situation. Smoke bombs, tranquilizer poisons, some wire to strangle someone to death while you laugh maniacally but still silently so you're undetected, etc. If you can't handle nullifiers, then you're not well-equipped and inexperienced. Complaining about nullifiers is just like complaining that your unranked MK-1 Bo can't take down a level 42,345 heavy gunner.

[Mesa]

On 6/5/2016 at 4:40 PM, Genoscythe said:

Apart from that ancient healers and disruptor are also cheesy as hell, why does nobody complain about those? They don't have a fancy bubble but make your abilities useless as well, even your weapons sometimes.

Because they don't have a fancy bubble.

[Kaiser_Suoh]

Can DE just "rework" Nullifiers? is that so hard?

Also, nullifing the Focus Energy are lore breaking? im confused :s

[Wandering_Cyberdragoness]

On 6/9/2016 at 3:44 PM, (XB1)MK Ultra K11 said:

Yes the sentients cannot use void energy tech but the corpus nullifiers might not as well and if so we would've lost the old war so nullifiers break lore in this case,and if the nullifiers do use void energy tech it's ALSO breaks lore because the Orokin couldn't control the Tenno and barely understood the void how come the corpus who were (very unitellegent) compared to the Orokin can even shut down the zaramin children themselves. Nullifiers break lore no matter what.

Alright, first, Unitellegent...Dear Glittering Beast, wow, irony. It's spelled Unintelligent.

Also, the Orokin could very well manipulate void energy, given their towers, torsion beam devices, void keys, and most importantly, Warframes, which were Orokin technology. 

[BlackCoMerc]

On 6/6/2016 at 3:22 AM, Sudri said:

Just my take on it so here goes. The way I see it is that every enemy in the game has a way around it's difficulty whether it's armor types, shield, Slow auras or whatever.

and if I have a problem with those enemies I can do something to adjust accordingly whether it's switching to corrosive or getting on loki or Ivara and attacking from a distance.

The problem with Nullifiers from my point of view is that there is basically no real way around their Bubble, for example.

-You can't use Punchthrough

-You can't Use abilities to counter it

-Melee doesn't pierce the bubble

-Glaives can't pierce it

-As far as I have seen Explosive weapons can't get past the bubble

-Focus abilities don't work on them

-You have to use auto weapons with huge fire rate. nothing else. (otherwise the bubble will not go down especially with more than one)

 

All i'm saying is that most of the enemies that actually cause problems like Eximus or Combas are well designed, they pose a problem but you can counter that problem.

even with full auto weapons the bubble will only shrink so fast, and anything else is basically ineffective. Nullifiers to me seem like a really boring unfair and badly designed obstacle put in the game, if you want be able to even slightly counter them effectively you cannot use Bows,Snipers, or Explosives. (Basically anything that doesn't hit fast.) and have to change your loadout, which really removes a lot of the freedom of play and seeing how common they are in a lot of missions you really have to do this otherwise it's going to be really rough.

Why can more people NOT see this? It invalidates 3/4 of weapons, ALL powers, AND a complete (melee) playstyle to boot. It's horribly designed, an obvious quick fix bandaid to room nukes we mostly don't have any longer.

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

First pointing out grammer errors in not productive and just shows you cannot make a point so you try to distract by pointing out grammer errors. Second of all the orokin barely understood that tech but they werent able to shut down focus abbilities as well as the zariman children themselves otherwise all the acounts of people getting hurt while being around the zariman children would of never happened.

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

1 hour ago, Xen_Ashwood said:

...Dear Glittering Beast, wow, irony. 

And third of all

Wow the irony....are you kidding me?

 

C'mon its a shiny pigs mods.... Approve it for the shiny pig.

Edited June 11, 2016 by (XB1)MK Ultra K11

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

3 hours ago, Kaiser_Suoh said:

Can DE just "rework" Nullifiers? is that so hard?

Also, nullifing the Focus Energy are lore breaking? im confused :s

The orokin couldn't control the zariman children outside of their warframes....why should the corpus be able to?

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

3 hours ago, giglyfoot said:

You can hear a nullifier coming LONGGGG before you see it. How are you not able to adapt to you surroundings and deal with the nullifier? This is a STRATEGY game after all. Warframe is not just some random shoot-em-up game. We are NINJAS in SPACE!!! The 'lore' of ninjas says that they had anything they could possibly need in their arsenal for any situation. Smoke bombs, tranquilizer poisons, some wire to strangle someone to death while you laugh maniacally but still silently so you're undetected, etc. If you can't handle nullifiers, then you're not well-equipped and inexperienced. Complaining about nullifiers is just like complaining that your unranked MK-1 Bo can't take down a level 42,345 heavy gunner.

The enemy butchers the lore  and its terribly designed..even if its not hard to kill and annoying(in some cases) its no fun.

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

 

First of all, grammar errors do not show intelligence. Let me ask you this, does me typing on a phone right after im done working out and not caring enough to spell intelligent right because my phone is giving me issues show my intelligence? No..it doesn't. Getting your point across is more important than a few spelling errors. Second of all the orokin barely understood that tech(The tech that was based off of " In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed."-excalibur codex  and they werent able to shut down focus abbilities as well as the zariman children themselves otherwise all the acounts of people getting hurt while being around the zariman children"

• We were dangerous, broken. Everytime they tried to fix us, someone always got hurt. I wish I could've saved them. I wish I could've taken their fear away."

would of never happened.

[Wandering_Cyberdragoness]

2 hours ago, (XB1)MK Ultra K11 said:

First pointing out grammer errors in not productive and just shows you cannot make a point so you try to distract by pointing out grammer errors. Second of all the orokin barely understood that tech but they werent able to shut down focus abbilities as well as the zariman children themselves otherwise all the acounts of people getting hurt while being around the zariman children would of never happened.

The grammar error was just so funny and ironic i had to point it out. 

Anyways, the Orokin understood it enough to make the warframes, the somatic link, the towers, void-based travel, torsion beam devices, keys,and any number of other devices you see in the Void. The corpus had a large amount of Orokin knowledge to begin with, and a millennia to scavenge and do their own research. It's clear both are fairly skilled in using void tech, even if they don't understand the source of said power.

[IceColdHawk]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Why can more people NOT see this?

Cuz they are used to melee slide instakill them on venus where 1 nullifier/minute spawns.

[.Little.]

Didn't read any comments just going to say, yesterday's sortie was horrid in the survival.   Had over 5 nullies in one room, with ospreys dropping mines, and some bursas.  We did make to the end, but it was ridiculous. 

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

4 minutes ago, Xen_Ashwood said:

The grammar error was just so funny and ironic i had to point it out. 

Anyways, the Orokin understood it enough to make the warframes, the somatic link, the towers, void-based travel, torsion beam devices, keys,and any number of other devices you see in the Void. The corpus had a large amount of Orokin knowledge to begin with, and a millennia to scavenge and do their own research. It's clear both are fairly skilled in using void tech, even if they don't understand the source of said power.

Yes, but lore wise they cannot STOP the power of the tenno. Which nullifiers can do.

[Wandering_Cyberdragoness]

18 hours ago, (XB1)MK Ultra K11 said:

Yes, but lore wise they cannot STOP the power of the tenno. Which nullifiers can do.

technically, they suppress it. It's very possible the corpus, with their constant void excursions and orokin tech to build off of, with a far more pressing need to develop this kind of tech, had figured out something the orokin had not.

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

20 minutes ago, Xen_Ashwood said:

technically, they suppress it. It's very possible the corpus, with their constant void excursions and orokin tech to build off of, with a far more pressing need to develop this kind of tech, had figured out something the orokin had not.

I don't think so, the Orokin were smarter than the corpus in every way and have had their top scientists studying the Tenno for a long time before they decided they couldn't control them and just locked them up.(basically if the corpus pressed for this tech the Orokin pushed the button so hard it broke the machine.) Also the corpus don't know much about Orokin tech, in fact Orokin tech is so much beyond the corpus that they worship it. Also I'd like to mention that Alad V(not a common corpus and considered smart, he was on the corpus board he was like a corpus noble/King) did not know how the Orokin portals worked. That's why without a key they simply cannot open them. It's like saying a child knows how a keyhole(mechanisms and such)works if he stuck a key in it and opened it. Basically as I was saying before the corpus just couldn't make nullifier tech to cancel out zariman children abilities it makes no sense lore wise. As someone else stated earlier it's "laughably sad". If you don't believe me look up the lore entries yourself, I guarantee after you do you'll agree with me.

Edited June 12, 2016 by (XB1)MK Ultra K11

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, (XB1)MK Ultra K11 said:

I don't think so, the Orokin were smarter than the corpus in every way and have had their top scientists studying the Tenno for a long time before they decided they couldn't control them and just locked them up.(basically if the corpus pressed for this tech the Orokin pushed the button so hard it broke the machine.) Also the corpus don't know much about Orokin tech, in fact Orokin tech is so much beyond the corpus that they worship it. Also I'd like to mention that Alad V(not a common corpus and considered smart, he was on the corpus board he was like a corpus noble/King) did not know how the Orokin portals worked. That's why without a key they simply cannot open them. It's like saying a child knows how a keyhole(mechanisms and such)works if he stuck a key in it and opened it. Basically as I was saying before the corpus just couldn't make nullifier tech to cancel out zariman children abilities it makes no sense lore wise. As someone else stated earlier it's "laughably sad". If you don't believe me look up the lore entries yourself, I guarantee after you do you'll agree with me.

I loathe Nullifiers, but...maybe they are interrupting the Nueral Link between Tenno and Frame just enough that channeling powers is out. We can maintain control but not cast...

Cause...screw you, Lore, that's why.

Yeah I don't like it either but it's a possible "justification " for a terrible game mechanic.