Lets discuss the nullifiers

[Kaiser_Suoh]

I hate Nullifers.

Oh! hi, i just want to say:

DE dont care about feedback when you want to claim/fix their beloved bastard child "Nullifier".

Just DE dont care, believe me, i tried to remove that "bad kid" since his release date.

Only say they care about feedback when they make a change and say "the change is done because you want it".

OK lets try again, "DE pls fix or remove or erase or REWORK Nullifiers".

See? nothing... wait... no, nothing... they just dont care.

This Thread will be removed or just be moved to another section.

[Fionntan]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Graysmog said:

Yeah, to be completely honest, leaving them in their current state for so long has not been healthy for the game as a whole.

Yet at the same time, if they were nerfed long ago, what real challenge would we have had in the Void during our Warframes state of OPness? Mesa would have been sssoooo much worse, along with Excalibur, and Valkyr could have been unstoppable, literally.

I do feel they've been in a bad state for fffaaarrr too long. 
 

Although Warframes as a whole probably need to be taken down a notch overall to see how much we truly need to nerf Nullifiers.

Well.

Aside from their ridiculous spawn rates and bubble sizes, which EVERYONE knows is completely ridiculous and unfair.
 

Yea that's what I hope so when DE gets around rebalancing lots things little by little. Personally in terms of balance this vid sums up how I wish it was approached: 

 

 

Fair point on nerfing too early, it wouldn't been healthy choice.... although I just wanted to at least pierce bubble with a sniper :( which I always used before they became a thing.

Only thing I do now is slide melee with my Dual Kama Ps for quick clean up. Also, yea the bubble stacking is just silly & forces users to melee unless they want to waste ammo on the fly :/

 

@Kaiser_Suoh

Edited June 6, 2016 by Fionntan

[jfhsanseiIII]

That's a fair point. With press 4 to win going the way of the Dodo should nullifiers be redone? I kind of like them, to be honest.  They force me to adapt my play style pretty much instantly in some cases.  In other cases I'm not bothered by them because I can just walk into the bubble and cut them down.  They do need some looking at though, but for the same reason loads of people have already mentioned bows, snipers, and other weapons that produce high damage but have low fire rates.  

[Kaiser_Suoh]

4 hours ago, ComCray said:

Video seems to be gone (content removed??), here's the youtube version (if it is the same)

 

I said that since the birth of Nullifier, is unfair that only automatic weapons can melt the shield, and others weapons dont.

But DE dont care, well time to make a feedback... oh wait! DE dont read feedbacks with the word "Nullifier" in it... so nevermid.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Kaiser_Suoh

[ClockworkSpectre]

11 hours ago, GTX49 said:

As far as i know, the nullifiers were brought to reduce the "Press 4 to Win" mentality around, but now the devs are reworking such skills to kill that "Press 4 to Win" 

This leads to one question.. Should the nullifiers stay or be removed or moved to a future nightmare raid?

It is most definitely time for them to go.  If nothing else reworked.  If they insist on them staying they could at least reduce the damage of their rifle or change them to use a pistol.  The bubble also could be reduced in size and reworked to allow slow weapons like bows to be effective. 

 

But, removing them would be best.  They were a knee-jerk reaction to something that is hardly the issue it used to be. 

 

Feedback has been overwhelmingly negative about nullifiers since they were added.  And these days there is even less reason for them to be in game and  yet DE keeps ignoring us on the subject, regardless whether a person was saying they should be removed or just modified.  

Edited June 6, 2016 by ClockworkSpectre

[Hixlysss]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't see how dumbing down the mechanic to succumb to DPS is any better.

Shouldn't we want something other than pure damage to matter at times? The nullifier hate is simply people wanting to point at an enemy and delete it. Any enemy that requires a modicum of thought beyond "point at it and kill it" is hated on on these forums. Bursa, manics, drones, bombards, heyekas, commanders, power fist....there is a definite trend.

You expect DE to add enemy variety, yet dont care for anything that isnt just cannon fodder falling over to your sancti tigris when you point at it.

The love for the comba units are simply because when they show up 90% of the time you just shoot their helmets off and go about your business as if nothing different spawned.

If you have an enemy like the nullifier, which can get wrecked by any DPS weapon, no matter the damage. Having anything that rather simply just ignores damage is annoying to have to deal with. The "canon fodder that gets deleted by clicking at it" is a overall issue with warframe that needs to be addressed at some point. As it stands, the nullfier can easily be replaced by the comba/scrambus, we no longer need the nullifier for it's power stopping abilities, if DE want's a unit that can provide shields for groups of enemies, just buff the shield osprey and have it follow a comba/scrambus.

[SquireAngel]

I love how every Nullifier 'suggestion' thread always ends up as just people saying they should be removed. Nullifiers, as they are, certainly need some reworking. However, removing from them from the game is dumb from several fronts that I don't feel like explaining, because the response will mostly likely be the same; people saying they should just be removed. 

[CrimsonDalekanium]

If nullifiers stay:

No enemies in the bubble with them

enemy and tenno Shots cannot pierce the bubble from inside or out.

abilities still disabled

replace sniper with shotgun

enemy shots reduce bubble size too.

[CaliburxZero]

I've said it in another thread but i'll just add to the census here:  They're lazy design and the poster child of Cheese of the game for the enemies.  Get Rid of them.  Terrible, annoying mechanics that should have never existed.  

 

Want a balanced game and for us to be stripped of all of our cheese?  Great.  But that doubly goes for enemy cheese too, which given how things go for this game... will be twice the painstakingly long wait and fight to make this a reality.

[CrimsonDalekanium]

12 hours ago, SquireAngel said:

I love how every Nullifier 'suggestion' thread always ends up as just people saying they should be removed. Nullifiers, as they are, certainly need some reworking. However, removing from them from the game is dumb from several fronts that I don't feel like explaining, because the response will mostly likely be the same; people saying they should just be removed. 

Is there any other enemy in the game where people overwhelmingly responded: Remove this. Now.

Is there any other enemy in a popular game where the Devs professed to care where people overwhelmingly responded, "Remove this . Now." and NOTHING was done?

The only enemies to receive THIS level of hate are the bursas and whatever that stunlock enemy that got removed was( can't remember what it was even called), and THOSE both got removed or heavily (some say too heavily) nerfed.

 Nullifiers are NOT hard to kill by themselves, period. But instead of having them be a legitimate enemy support (I.E. Ancient healers), DE threw in a DPS-proof bubble, susceptible to high RoF only, which other enemies cluster in, has no LoS check (unlike our WARFRAME POWERS), and contains a sniper. 

[Brokenrune]

Honestly, I think Nullfiiers should have their health pool buffed, but remove their nullification ability for abilities and bullets, but they stop projectile abilites. Then it would be a balanced enemy I think,

[(PSN)Cwellann]

@(XB1)Graysmog

Alright, so, Nullifiers have a void nullifying shield around them.  From a lore standpoint, this is, um, huge.  This is not the kind of thing you give to mooks A through double Z.  This is elite, precious, technology.  Nullifiers should not be removed, but they should receive a complete rework.  Combas and Scrambus are elite units, and are regarded by the game as such.  Nullifiers are elite units - they change the flow of gameplay the second you see one, but are not regarded by the game as this, as can be seen by their spawning logic.  This is the biggest thing that needs fixed - their spawn logic.  

The null backpack.  This is the source, the precious technology.  The guy carrying this thing's entire job is to keep it safe.  This is somewhat acknowledged currently by them sprinting away when you wreck the bubble sometimes - at the speed of a sprint-build Loki sometimes, but that's another issue.  The Nullifier's job is to shutdown Tenno, and protect his resource to do this.  So, why a sniper rifle?  I've seen a lot of suggestions for Amprex - that, or Glaxion (shudder, but it makes sense), or a shottie, or something designed as a last ditch shutdown is what they should have.  In addition to this making more sense, this would make them significantly harder as it would make the slide in and melee instakill them incredibly risky.  If you've played Destiny, (sorry to bring up that other game, but the comparison is pretty apt, even though it's to a PVP mechanic), this would be like trying to bladedance into a Titan's bubble.  It might work - but there's a great chance you're going to get sat the Hek (get it, shotgun pun!) down.  In most cases, the bubble itself is what would have to actually be dealt with, as going inside is a near guaranteed death sentence.

The bubble itself.  The way it takes damage is garbage, and needs to go.  Being forced vs half the factions in the game to bring a bullet hose or thrown melee when ammo economy is already a kinda broken issue (inb4 JUSTBRINGPADSSC00B), and thrown melee weapons are... a pretty heavy sacrifice, or being forced to use Naramon (before anyone tells me to go max it and stop whining, it is - passives all maxed out, if we had that trophy XBOne has I'd have it via Naramon, and I don't use it anymore because it's just too cheesy).  The bubble either needs to just have (scaling) health, and not be treated as an object, or be able to be shot through.  There's positives and negatives to both of these.  Plain health the negative is, um, Synulor and Tonkor pretty much - they'd just trivialize it.  The bubble, however, could distribute the force of the explosion over its entire area and take the resultant damage, which would probably nerf those two weapons pretty hard (all the more so since I once saw Glen essentially say "You don't want me to go down the road of realistic explosive physics" with regard to these weapons - it might not end with Nullie bubbles.  No I don't have a link.).  Shooting through, with damage reduction awarded to anything protected by the bubble, especially if the backpack were a weakpoint, I think is a much better solution though.  You'd have to get behind to take out the backpack, or use only your guns to take out the horde inside just to get a clear shot at the Nullie, while being shot at the whole time, without being able to use powers to trivialize the situation.  The drawback to this one isn't much of a drawback - if you're a deadeye with a bow or a sniper, this sort of thing isn't going to be a problem... but I don't really think it's a bad thing to reward skill based weapons.  For those who love their spray and pray, the current mechanic wouldn't be overly different either way I think as far as how it would actually behave.

Bubble clipping/interaction with a bubble.  I actually think this should stay.  It can nullify void powers, I really don't see walls as much of a hindrance.  But, I think that backpack probably isn't the silent running magic machine it currently seems to be.  I know there's an auditory cue, but it's a bit subtle.  Auditory cues similar to Combas, though in this case, just a, um, loud static buzz (no, like, LOUD, not what we have now), would be really nice.  As far as Tenno interaction with a bubble goes, I think the current mechanic is actually ok.  I think this could be more than adequately treated by balancing the spawns and bubble health mechanics.  That way, you blunder into a bubble, you pretty much deserve to stare at the rez screen.

Well.  That got long.  If you actually read all that, thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts.  If you didn't, or got lost in my verbosity, tl;dr: treat 'em as elite units for spawning, and completely rework the way the bubble interacts with our guns, provide better warning to the player that there's one approaching, change their gun to a close combat superweapon, and keep the inside of the bubble as a major no fun zone.

[DatDarkOne]

I don't have a problem with the Nullifiers.  I can still stealth kill them.  hehe  The Comba/Scrambus are more of a problem to me if I'm not paying attention/being careless.  True they are a much better thought out enemy than the Nullifiers.  Truthfully it doesn't matter to me as I will adjust my tactics as needed without even needing to switch warframes.  

[GreyEnneract]

 

12 hours ago, CrimsonDalekanium said:

Is there any other enemy in the game where people overwhelmingly responded: Remove this. Now.

Is there any other enemy in a popular game where the Devs professed to care where people overwhelmingly responded, "Remove this Now." and NOTHING was done?

The only enemies to receive THIS level of hate are the bursas and whatever that stunlock enemy that got removed was( can't remember what it was even called), and THOSE both got removed or heavily (some say too heavily) nerfed.

 Nullifiers are NOT hard to kill by themselves, period. But instead of having them be a legitimate enemy support (I.E. Ancient healers), DE threw in a DPS-proof bubble, susceptible to high RoF only, which other enemies cluster in, has no LoS check (unlike our WARFRAME POWERS), and contains a sniper. 

Even Bursas don't receive as much hatred. The only other enemy that had as much overwhelming hatred and a push to be removed were the old Shock Eximus. They were removed completely, then re-added later to be much weaker with an entirely different effect. If people push hard enough, Nullifiers will be removed.

[SquireAngel]

9 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

 

Even Bursas don't receive as much hatred. The only other enemy that had as much overwhelming hatred and a push to be removed were the old Shock Eximus. They were removed completely, then re-added later to be much weaker with an entirely different effect. If people push hard enough, Nullifiers will be removed.

I really hope those like you don't ruin the game. People whine about everything, literally everything in the game. If DE listened to everyone, WF would be....nothing, actually. Everyone complains about something, and wants this nerfed, that buffed, this and that reworked. There was just a thread that said enemies should simply cap at lvl 20 awhile ago, and more than a few electing to remove every single unit in the game, besides base grunts. The reason I don't bother explaining is because it's a waste. It doesn't matter if I give 1 reason or 100 reasons, people like you will simply wish the obstacle away, rather than trying to help give CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK that will help WF evolve and grow as a whole. Do I believe Nullifiers need something of a tweek? Yes, as they sit, they're rather cheesy. However, they are one of the very few, being 1 of 2 entire units that has adapted defenses to tenno power, who have been around for something seeming around 100 years in the lore. This means enemies of the tenno, especially the Corpus, who are the remnants of the original orokin empire who got shrekt to the extreme by said tenno and their powers, would have a vested interested and ample resources, including the ever so important time factor, to develop counters to void energy. 

Warframe powers are, by nature, OP as hek. Across all the factions, we have approximately 5 units who can deal with these powers in effective ways. The helmed comba etc, nullifiers, Sentients, Ancient healers, and the Stalker. This is 5 units across 4-5 entire factions. The Nullifier and the role it serves are very vital, it is simply the shield that needs moderate tweeking. Please, go complain about something like The Division or Destiny if all you're going to do is whine. Those of us who actually like the game are trying to make it better, not cuckold to people throwing hissy fits. 

[GreyEnneract]

7 hours ago, SquireAngel said:

I really hope those like you don't ruin the game. People whine about everything, literally everything in the game. If DE listened to everyone, WF would be....nothing, actually. Everyone complains about something, and wants this nerfed, that buffed, this and that reworked. There was just a thread that said enemies should simply cap at lvl 20 awhile ago, and more than a few electing to remove every single unit in the game, besides base grunts. The reason I don't bother explaining is because it's a waste. It doesn't matter if I give 1 reason or 100 reasons, people like you will simply wish the obstacle away, rather than trying to help give CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK that will help WF evolve and grow as a whole. Do I believe Nullifiers need something of a tweek? Yes, as they sit, they're rather cheesy. However, they are one of the very few, being 1 of 2 entire units that has adapted defenses to tenno power, who have been around for something seeming around 100 years in the lore. This means enemies of the tenno, especially the Corpus, who are the remnants of the original orokin empire who got shrekt to the extreme by said tenno and their powers, would have a vested interested and ample resources, including the ever so important time factor, to develop counters to void energy. 

Warframe powers are, by nature, OP as hek;. Across all the factions, we have approximately 5 units who can deal with these powers in effective ways. The helmed comba etc, nullifiers, Sentients, Ancient healers, and the Stalker. This is 5 units across 4-5 entire factions. The Nullifier and the role it serves are very vital, it is simply the shield that needs moderate tweeking. Please, go complain about something like The Division or Destiny if all you're going to do is whine. Those of us who actually like the game are trying to make it better, not cuckold to people throwing hissy fits. 

You can go on your little tirade all you want. People have already given plenty of constructive feedback on why Nullifiers should be completely removed, though after reading this post it looks like they're all just whining to you. Anyone who disagrees with you is just whining apparently. I'm going to assume you were one of the players that were fine with Shock Eximus as they were then? Though looking at your post count I'm not even sure you've been around long enough to see how this game has been balanced over the years.

[SquireAngel]

7 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

You can go on your little tirade all you want. People have already given plenty of constructive feedback on why Nullifiers should be completely removed, though after reading this post it looks like they're all just whining to you. Anyone who disagrees with you is just whining apparently. I'm going to assume you were one of the players that were fine with Shock Eximus as they were then? Though looking at your post count I'm not even sure you've been around long enough to see how this game has been balanced over the years.

Yup, only been around 3 years. Barely hit MR 21, which is quite low /sarcasm]. 

No one is offering up anything contructive to replace the role that nullifiers serve, which is why DE HASN'T removed them. DE is fairly good with responding to the community with things that fall in line with what they want their vision of the game to be. Obviously, they feel that there needs to be some wrench thrown into the system on occasion to stop the massacring that is tenno power usage. You're pushing on a pull open door when you cry for DE to remove the Nullifiers, rather than trying to help. Simply telling DE to remove something they feel is vital is not Constructive Feedback. 'Yelling' at DE for not listening to the first round of people crying for Nullifiers to be removed is, once again, not Constructive Feedback. It's whining and moaning. 

Also consider the fact that DE is already super swamped trying to get u19 out the door, which is already massive and reworking more core systems at once than ANY major update to date. Considering how enemy scaling is getting reworked, it's entirely possible that Nullifiers are actively being worked on to not be so cheesy. But hey, even if they aren't, I have only moderate issues with them in high end content, so you keep throwing those temper tantrums, I'll keep being content with that which is good, and posting positive feedback to help keep the game going strong. Here's to people like you burning out. 

[GreyEnneract]

12 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

As for shock eximus, I've been around long enough to know an OP enemy is either meant to be a challenge or it will get nerfed. If nullifiers haven't been nerfed after all this time, clearly this is intended, so we should learn to adapt. But hey, that's clearly beyond some people.

"If Prism was supposed to be Line of Sight, they would have changed it long ago." "If Blessing was too strong, DE would have changed it months back."

Your logic doesn't add up. At all. Especially with the changes to Ballistas, Grenades, who also didn't receive any changes until recently, and then Hyekka Masters.

Since you've been around for so long apparently, then you should remember how long Toxic Ancients and Disruptor Ancients were left alone before their current iterations.

As you can see, the amount of time they remain unchanged is not a factor.

[IceColdHawk]

I can't read Grey's mind but i can definitely speak for myself when it comes to "giving good arguments for nullifiers". I simply can't be bothered to repeat myself over 1000 times when it comes to this subject. Especially since i've done this already:

^There you will find some actual good arguments if this current thread isn't enough. The reason i want him removed is not because i can't deal with him. In fact, i can easily deal with him. But it's not a fun way, not a longlasting fun way at least. I can go naramon banshee or naramon anything and call it a day. You might say i don't have to use naramon. That's true, but i simply can't be arsed with them anymore when it comes to sortie surfs and excavs with their mass spawnings. Tbh, i'd even be happy if only their spawn rate gets reduced and snipers/shotguns actually made effective against them. But after thinking this through again, i came to the conclusion that simply removing him should be an easier and quicker task for DE. I bet that will make most people have a smile on their face again.

You might love to have some actual challenging enemies. Me too. But defending a broken and unbalanced "challenging" enemy is not the way to go. The lack of true difficulty but thirst for difficulty is actually blinding people. Oh damn was that proxy retribution TA actually fun. Hyenas dealt some serious damage, were agile and could proc radiation which can cause serious harm to your allies if not prepared (or even kill the cryopod..). Now that was an actual fun and challenging enemy. I don't mind it having a bit more of a challenge but it should at least be FUN or REWARDING (nullifiers dont even give a good amount of xp). Or even both. But nullifiers? I don't mind them removed. I won't miss them. As they stand, they only serve to make corpus missions a chore.

[SquireAngel]

3 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Your logic doesn't add up. At all. Especially with the changes to Ballistas, Grenades, who also didn't receive any changes until recently, and then Hyekka Masters.

Since you've been around for so long apparently, then you should remember how long Toxic Ancients and Disruptor Ancients were left alone before their current iterations.

As you can see, the amount of time they remain unchanged is not a factor.

Actually, you only strengthen my argument. These changed according to DE's intentions. DE changed them to better fit what they felt was the correct intention at the time, and that was then, while this is now. Considering the whole sale slaughter powers can crush enemies with, Nullifiers are going to be around a lot longer, unless we get some MASSIVE nerfs across the broad spectrum to better fit DE's non-cheesing intentions at the moment, one they are now enforcing more heavily, only strengthening the foothold nulls have. If we ever come to a place where Nulls are needed, then hey, sure, get rid of them. However, there will be something to fill the void lol, void, like the tenno void powers....screw you, it was funny left by nulls. 

[SquireAngel]

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I can't read Grey's mind but i can definitely speak for myself when it comes to "giving good arguments for nullifiers". I simply can't be bothered to repeat myself over 1000 times when it comes to this subject. 

See, now that's an ACTUAL discussion! There are actually some legit reasons and good ideas in there. Note; there are ideas on how to work with what we have to make it better. Your simple link provides what grey in all his whining never gave. I also said that I feel they should be reworked. What validity your argument holds, Grey's never did. His argument was basically 'lol, because raisins', and all the grief following. 

[Kevrex97]

Like the nullifiers are ok i just wish they didnt start running up to u like a melee unit with thier Lankas

[GreyEnneract]

2 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

Actually, you only strengthen my argument. These changed according to DE's intentions. DE changed them to better fit what they felt was the correct intention at the time, and that was then, while this is now. Considering the whole sale slaughter powers can crush enemies with, Nullifiers are going to be around a lot longer, unless we get some MASSIVE nerfs across the broad spectrum to better fit DE's non-cheesing intentions at the moment, one they are now enforcing more heavily, only strengthening the foothold nulls have. If we ever come to a place where Nulls are needed, then hey, sure, get rid of them. However, there will be something to fill the void lol, void, like the tenno void powers....screw you, it was funny left by nulls. 

2 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

See, now that's an ACTUAL discussion! There are actually some legit reasons and good ideas in there. Note; there are ideas on how to work with what we have to make it better. Your simple link provides what grey in all his whining never gave. I also said that I feel they should be reworked. What validity your argument holds, Grey's never did. His argument was basically 'lol, because raisins', and all the grief following. 

Exactly. That was then, when Nullifiers were a quick bandaid solution for cheese, and this is now. A time where cheese across the board is being looked into and quashed.

If after their removal something must take their place in the void, then they already have Comba and Scrambus to work with. Even Isolator Bursa, an enemy with a much more balanced and actually thought out nullifying field. Then there are the Hyenas who use status procs to be powerful units. Giving more enemies a way to proc radiation on Tenno is also a great way to counter powers.  All points that were brought up in this thread already. If Nullifiers were the true answer for countering powers, then each faction would have one of some kind in the field. Currently only Grineer have a nullification field enemy, and that's only within Nightmare Law of Retribution. Again, there are much better, balanced, and well thought out ways to counter powers, Nullifiers are not needed any longer.

As for your second post, you are the only one I can see whining in this thread. You also again, imply that this thread has zero good points in it at all. Don't try to assume my points when you haven't even read through the rest of this thread, let alone my other posts.

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

If after their removal something must take their place in the void, then they already have Comba and Scrambus to work with. Even Isolator Bursa, an enemy with a much more balanced and actually thought out nullifying field. Then there are the Hyenas who use status procs to be powerful units. Giving more enemies a way to proc radiation on Tenno is also a great way to counter powers.  All points that were brought up in this thread already. If Nullifiers were the true answer for countering powers, then each faction would have one of some kind in the field. Currently only Grineer have a nullification field enemy, and that's only within Nightmare Law of Retribution. Again, there are much better, balanced, and well thought out ways to counter powers, Nullifiers are not needed any longer.

Now that makes sense.  I can't argue against it because it makes too much logical sense.

Edited June 6, 2016 by DatDarkOne
grammar

[Alma_Elma]

I'm still surprised nobody's rallying against the Bombard's anus-seeking missiles.

Personally I think they're a bigger problem than fun-nullifiers. Atleast I can dodge Lanka shots. Bombards have missiles that you can't reliably dodge and penetrate cover like its nothing.