Warframe PvP Improvement

[Chromatrescu]

" DE please watch this post to make PvP fair and square ^_^ I love you DE ! "

• Makes the players only carry 1 Primary / 1 Secondary and 1 Melee , so no people will bring instant-kill weapon or high damage weapon 
• No mods on PvP , since newbies doesn't have mods , so they have a big dis-advantage 
• Showcase the winner please ^_^ I love dramatic scene [ never wanted to skip beautiful scene like on Law Of Retribution ] 

Notice that this is the gathering discussion from the lastest post i posted on , also big thanks to lots of Tenno that helps and deliver these discussion !

Edited June 13, 2016 by LittleRiot.Teemo

[Chromatrescu]

16 minutes ago, Nijyumensou said:

Dude, name....

Just asking if they want to see :) 

[Naftal]

Just now, Alma_Elma said:

They could, but that still doesn't fix the fact that Conclave is a broken, lost cause that should have never existed in a game who's entire system was structured for PvE.

And it shouldn't matter to you pve crowd.

The argument that the game was first pve doesn't mean anything. The game didn't have a lot of things 3 years ago but now it does.

[Alma_Elma]

16 minutes ago, Naftal said:

The argument that the game was first pve doesn't mean anything. The game didn't have a lot of things 3 years ago but now it does.

Except that it does. Warframe's entire identity was BUILT around the concept of being a PvE game, not a PvP/PvE hybrid game. Its core mechanics are too clunky to translate into a competitive environment that requires plenty of precision movements. So unless DE is going to recreate an entirely different system for PvP (And not just script changes. Everything from animations to game mechanics has to be rebuilt to accommodate their goal.), Conclave will never catch on, and only a niche group of masochists are going to play it regularly.

In essence, the attempt of trying to make Conclave a thing in WF is like trying to fit a square block into a triangular hole: Its either not gonna work, or you're gonna destroy your toy in the process of trying to fit the block inside. Lunaro might be a different story since its not combat-oriented, but as for traditional PvP: its a lost cause.

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[MagPrime]

37 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

How to fix Warframe's PvP:

Step 1: Remove Concalve
Step 2: Remove any mention of Conclave ever existing
Step 3: Throw Teshin into the neareast airlock
Step 4: Throw anyone else who thinks conclave is a good idea into an infested Galleon and send it on a direct course into the sun.
Step 5: PvP is fixed.

While amusing, this is excessive and doesn't actually fix anything.

Yes, Warframe started out PvE and according to some vets, PvP was a hot topic back in the day and only added as a palative measure.

But. Like many things, living and digital, evolution is a thing.  PvP being added was inevitable and its here to stay. 

1 hour ago, LittleRiot.Teemo said:

" DE please watch this post to make PvP fair and square ^_^ I love you DE ! "

• Makes the players only carry 1 Primary / 1 Secondary and 1 Melee , so no people will bring instant-kill weapon or high damage weapon 
• No mods on PvP , since newbies doesn't have mods , so they have a big dis-advantage 
• Showcase the winner please ^_^ I love dramatic scene [ never wanted to skip beautiful scene like on Law Of Retribution ] 

Notice that this is the gathering discussion from the lastest post i posted on , also big thanks to lots of Tenno that helps and deliver these discussion !

My understanding of the Conclave system is that you can only bring 3 weapons already.  How would restricting them to primary/secondary/melee improve anything, when thats already in place?

Mods; how would you suggest weapon stats be augmented without them? Otherwise we have a small selection of weapons to choose from.

Showcasing could be fun.  Make it optional though.

[Naftal]

4 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

Except that it does. Warframe's entire identity was BUILT around the concept of being a PvE game, not a PvP/PvE hybrid game. Its core mechanics are too clunky to translate into a competitive environment that requires plenty of precision movements. So unless DE is going to recreate an entirely different system for PvP (And not just script changes. Everything from animations to game mechanics has to be rebuilt to accommodate their goal.), Conclave will never catch on, and only a niche group of masochists are going to play it regularly.

In essence, the attempt of trying to make Conclave a thing in WF is like trying to fit a square block into a triangular hole: Its either not gonna work, or you're gonna destroy your toy in the process of trying to fit the block inside. Lunaro might be a different story since its not combat-oriented, but as for traditional PvP: its a lost cause.

 

Warframe's whole identity is built around the mobility. Most players are too clunky to properly use that though and they are salty about conclave. The problem with conclave is the lack of servers, not the game mechanics.

[HEVCaliber]

18 minutes ago, Naftal said:

And it shouldn't matter to you pve crowd.

The argument that the game was first pve doesn't mean anything. The game didn't have a lot of things 3 years ago but now it does.

"pve crowd"... just lol, pal.

The game was designed and launched with pve in mind and that's what I like. You want to "change this.." "change that..." "revert this..." "revert that..." to make it whatever else. If I want to pvp I play a real pvp game. Do the same.

The game is in a weird state as it is and I don't want it to become more chaotic just because a kid cries that people won't stand still for him to shoot them.

[Voltage]

Lunaro looks trash IMO because Competative warframe doesn't work. EVER. It's such a small part of the game and DE could use those resources producing more/better PVE mechanics. DE should just get rid of conclave and move those rewards elsewhere (Sorties).

[Alma_Elma]

1 hour ago, Naftal said:

Warframe's whole identity is built around the mobility. Most players are too clunky to properly use that though and they are salty about conclave. The problem with conclave is the lack of servers, not the game mechanics.

Warframe's identity is built around the premise of being a nomadic, mystical space ninja, capable of taking out an entire platoon of soldiers by themselves with little difficulty, mobility is just one of the aspects.

Conclave removes most of these. All your abilities are nerfed and changed beyond recognition, your equipment is nerfed beyond fun use, your frame's capabilities are nerfed to the point that they barely feel unique anymore, 95% of what makes your persona of being a mystical space ninja is effectively vented out the airlock and replace with...THIS thing.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[Naftal]

Just now, Alma_Elma said:

Warframe's identity is built around the premise of being a nomadic, mystical space ninja, capable of taking out an entire platoon of soldiers by themselves with little difficulty, mobility is just one of the aspects.

Conclave removes most of these. All your abilities are nerfed and changed beyond recognition, your equipment is nerfed beyond fun use, your frame's capabilities are nerfed to the point that they barely feel unique anymore, 95% of what makes your persona of being a mystical space ninja is effectively vented out the airlock and replace with...THIS thing.

Well in conclave you are against other mystical space ninjas, not trash enemies. Most abilities in the game remove gameplay when you can just press a button in a corner without aiming and they would ruin pvp.

[AlphaSierraMike]

1 minute ago, Naftal said:

Warframe's whole identity is built around the mobility. Most players are too clunky to properly use that though and they are salty about conclave. The problem with conclave is the lack of servers, not the game mechanics.

You do realise the game's mission statement is "make the player feel powerful" right? That's what DE said some devs stream, ie. having a bunch of unbalanced cop out nonsense that screws the enemy wholeheartedly. Not mobility. Sure, that's ok in PvE, but it doesn't translate into PvP at all, when the game boils down to who can screw the other player first.

For one, even ignoring weapons, nothing is balanced. Mobility against EHP is unbalanced when you can move just as well while having a higher EHP. IPS/Armor/Shield in general is so inconsistent to the point where it's irrelevant. Mobility itself is unbalanced, i mean is there a reason to run or stay on the ground? Everyone bulletjumps even on a flat surface and the game turns into a dance routine of jumping back and forth ramming each other. Ability balancing is out of this world, they're either borderline useless or a completely one sided bollocks with no downside besides a deduction in energy, that's like saying shooting a gun has a downside of using bullets. Warframe passives are contrived as hell, again, some of them are barely noticeable, while some are just undeniably advantageous.

Some mods have the most warped logic behind them, and a lot of them has no freaking downsides. Like why the hell does being in the air correlate to a faster bow charge, effectively raising the damage output and usability, just because the guy is in mid air? Why is Lies in Wait still a necessity on sniper rifles when it was a bandaid solution to 2 shot hip fires, now that hipfire is inaccurate as heck? And hell, it doesn't even guarantee 2 shot kill on the Snipetron with even the smallest overshield in the way, and more importantly, not one shotting on headshots. Why does the game freaking reward players with extra damage for simply landing a @(*()$ shot with the Latron?? How does it make sense that increasing recoil is an adequate downside to a faster reload???

There are a few mods that I'm ok with though, like Sword Alone, while not in the description, the downside for fast mobility is not having ranged attacks at all. That's ok.

Speaking of which, why do pause combos still have a damage multiplier on them on top of a stagger right before that? And how is that justified for halving damages on quick melee combos? It's not difficult, nor does it remotely lower the damage output. And it literally only affects melee types with pause combos, and hell, it only benefits Dual swords and Nikanas as far as i know, and the Nikana was broken before they noticed that the pause attack had an innate 5x damage on top of a lunge. At least there's no more ghetto Slash Dash anymore.

The maps are an arse combined with the mobility, the map is packed with cover to the point where you can cross a gap between cover in a single jump, making long range combat even less viable on top of the spastic mobility.

The fact that they made CTF maps into TDM maps annoyed the balls out of me. Some of them just shouldn't be in a TDM setting, like the Simulacrum one, literally every game, the only area that's used is the mid corridor.

And for some reason DE refuses to change anything other than damage on the weapons, that's just limiting the option for some weapons to be either broken or completely unusable when the other stats take in no consideration for PvP. I would take a rate of fire hit on the Snipetron Vandal for a consistent 2 shot kill, i mean the recoil with Lies in Wait lowers the effective rate of fire anyway, like MW's .50 cal, rather than having to 3 shot kill on an irregular basis.

Honestly, I would prefer a better PvP experience over the continuity with PvE. Handicap fast movements (faster you go less accurate you shoot), change implement downsides for all abilities (eg. make Frost's Globe impenetrable on both sides and remove the slow down effect), re-balance all weapon stats in plain damage, re-do all mods so that none of them are mandatory or not have a downside to it whatsoever, that includes conditional mods like "On hit.....".

But then again, that's a lot of work. That's probably why Lunaro exists. This is like if Halo 3 decided to ignore the shooting part of PvP and focused on Grifball.

[Alma_Elma]

19 minutes ago, Naftal said:

Well in conclave you are against other mystical space ninjas, not trash enemies.

Except that as I've described above, you're no longer a mystical space ninja by the time you enter the Conclave. And with that gone, you're effectively playing a whole new, differently bad game.

 

19 minutes ago, Naftal said:

Most abilities in the game remove gameplay when you can just press a button in a corner without aiming and they would ruin pvp.

So is nerfing abilities to near uselessness for the sake of balance that they might aswell be absent. This goes double when unique abilities for each character are one of your game's major selling points.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[Mastikator2]

2 hours ago, Alma_Elma said:

Warframe's identity is built around the premise of being a nomadic, mystical space ninja, capable of taking out an entire platoon of soldiers by themselves with little difficulty, mobility is just one of the aspects.

Conclave removes most of these. All your abilities are nerfed and changed beyond recognition, your equipment is nerfed beyond fun use, your frame's capabilities are nerfed to the point that they barely feel unique anymore, 95% of what makes your persona of being a mystical space ninja is effectively vented out the airlock and replace with...THIS thing.

PVP has existed in Warframe since may 24 2013. This means that for the majority of the game Warframe has featured PVP. It's older than archwing, it's older than damage 2.0, it's as old as the clan mechanic.

Being able to take out an entire platoon of enemies with little difficulty wasn't always the case either, it used to be really hard to deal with dozens of grineer lancers or corpus crewmen. And pvp predates even that.

To say that PVP in Warframe does not belong is just not fact based. The game has evolved many times over and in nearly all of those evolution PVP was along for the ride and evolved too with Warframe. And hell, some of the PVE things that we now love and take for granted were affected by PVP, the concept of speed is key not just for transportation but as a fighting mechanic came out of PVP. It was the PVP crowd who disovered that mobility is a more fun defense than face tanking.

[Nazrethim]

To the OP:

-That's how our loadouts work, so I don't understand this one.

-Recruit Conditioning is an option that matches new players with other new players and disables all rare mods (except Melee Rare stances). It only works until you reach Conclave Rank 3, so don't rush to the skins, better learn how to fight, the skins are there never to be gone so there's no reason to rush. Also, most mods are sidegrades(get +% reload speed at the expense of -%magazine capacity, or convert 20% of the total damage of a slash weapon into impact, etcetera)

-I would totally like this, I always use the Eclipse narta on match end (when I'm not caught in a melee animation). However it would have to be like a boss intro and mission start: interruptable

To the others:

You know what game started as pure PvE? WoW, it didn't have a pvp system, the pvp system was introduced 9 fkin months after launch because people wanted it, and now has one of, if not the, best pvp in MMO. Warframe PvP is still in development and it has improved a lot since it's begining. The reason there wasn't PvP at start was because you need to develop core game mechanics before implementing PvP.

Warframe identity is about "space ninja" but "ninja" is another way of saying "commando". PvP is all about using the core mechanics of the game (the super mobility) vs an equally mobile oponent to improve our skills (which by the way you should have developed with normal play instead of sit on your arse in Draco to press X numbered key all day).

Now, from a Lore persepective, Conclave makes sense. Conclave is not a sport per se, Teshin is an old master (probably who trained the tenno in the first place) and returned to see the tenno becoming complacent (which is another way of saying he came and found a bunch of lazy leechers and powerspammers sitting on draco) and decides we are not ready to face super dangerous foes that will come (translation: enemies that require you to move your arse and can NO SELL your super power spam) so he leads the Conclave to prepare us for the challenges to come, and reward those who train and improve under his tutelage.

[Genitive]

Warframe pvp needs more game modes created with mobility in mind. While annihilation os okay, cephalon capture does not fit the game's movement system. Domination, or anything similar would be better. Lunaro is (I believe) a step in the right direction, but we should not stop with that.

Another thing is the fact that the game desperately needs dedicated pvp servers, which would solve a lot of problems with lag and not being able to hit anything because of it, which is my main problem with conclave.

When it comes to balance, I think that all the frames should have the same shields, armor, health, speed, etc. Mods should be there for customization, not our frame choice. Most people will disagree with me, but I would also turn off abilities in conclave. Most of them are useless in pvp anyway and should stay a pve thing. Conclave should be balanced around weapons, mods and mobility. Don't hate me too much.

[Alma_Elma]

1 hour ago, Mastikator2 said:

PVP has existed in Warframe since may 24 2013. This means that for the majority of the game Warframe has featured PVP. It's older than archwing, it's older than damage 2.0, it's as old as the clan mechanic.

Being able to take out an entire platoon of enemies with little difficulty wasn't always the case either, it used to be really hard to deal with dozens of grineer lancers or corpus crewmen. And pvp predates even that.

To say that PVP in Warframe does not belong is just not fact based. The game has evolved many times over and in nearly all of those evolution PVP was along for the ride and evolved too with Warframe. And hell, some of the PVE things that we now love and take for granted were affected by PVP, the concept of speed is key not just for transportation but as a fighting mechanic came out of PVP. It was the PVP crowd who disovered that mobility is a more fun defense than face tanking.

I'm not gonna nitpick every fact to keep things short and a bit less redundant, but isn't the fact that PvP has been evolving with WF for 3 years, pretty much since the start of launch, and still considered unfavorable by the playerbase at large, a sign of its legacy and future already?

Sure it helped PvE in several ways, but it still doesn't fix the fact regardless of how many iterations it went through, it still comes out as a mediocre game mode.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[Mastikator2]

32 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

I'm not gonna nitpick every fact to keep things short and a bit less redundant, but isn't the fact that PvP has been evolving with WF for 3 years, pretty much since the start of launch, and still considered unfavorable by the playerbase at large, a sign of its legacy and future already?

Sure it helped PvE in several ways, but it still doesn't fix the fact regardless of how many iterations it went through, it still comes out as a mediocre game mode.

Player base at large or (toxic) vocal minority? I think the majority of the players do not care about it one way or the other.

[Alma_Elma]

31 minutes ago, Mastikator2 said:

Player base at large or (toxic) vocal minority? I think the majority of the players do not care about it one way or the other.

You're missing the point that its been 3 years and the majority of the playerbase does not like PvP. Either the majority of people are outspoken about their disdain about it, or never bother to mention it because of how insignificant it is.

In either case, it shows how the everyone at large received has received the concept of PvP; its either awful that you'd write an angry rant about it or uninteresting that you'd just go "meh" and never look at it again.

In a nutshell, its been 3 years and all its managed to do is teeter between neutral and hostile opinions between people. You honestly don't think there's nothing wrong with that? Especially given its long development time?

Edited June 13, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[Mastikator2]

2 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

You're missing the point that its been 3 years and the majority of the playerbase does not like PvP. Either the majority of people are outspoken about their disdain about it, or never bother to mention it because of how insignificant it is.

In either case, it shows how the everyone at large received has received the concept of PvP; its either awful or uninteresting. All in all; most people don't like it.

Citation needed on "the majority doesn't like it".

Sure, I get that many players play Warframe because of the powertrip you get, because how powerful you are and how easy it is and this is not possible when playing against other players. But pretty much every Warframe player that wants challenge in any form in the game can enjoy PVP too.

The notion that one section of the player base (perhaps a majority +50%) is so much more important than a big minority that the big minority shouldn't even have a say at all is just downright selfish and toxic.

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

You're missing the point that its been 3 years and nobody likes PvP. Either the majority of people are outspoken about their disdain about it, or never bother to mention it because of how insignificant it is.

In either case, it shows how the playerbase at large received has recieved the concept of PvP; its either awful or uninteresting. All in all; most people don't like it.

Actually, only toxic pve players hate conclave and are vocal about it, more often than not the same player that wants Conclave removed are the same players who will be mean to you in a pug for not bringing meta (or bringing meta stuff) . Most PvE-only players simply don't care about it. Then you have the players who like both PvE and PvP and have fun.

The reason is perceived as awful is because it's very clunky and unbalanced in some aspects. And despite that, every day I see more and more new names in the Conclave, the interest is there, granted it's probably for the skins/syadanna, but it's there, and some players will come to like the mode and do a match every now and then.

[Alma_Elma]

1 hour ago, Mastikator2 said:

Citation needed on "the majority doesn't like it".

Sure, I get that many players play Warframe because of the powertrip you get, because how powerful you are and how easy it is and this is not possible when playing against other players. But pretty much every Warframe player that wants challenge in any form in the game can enjoy PVP too.

Considering we're doing nothing but side-stepping and going in circles from our brought-up points, I just gonna pick up sticks and go.

Quote

The notion that one section of the player base (perhaps a majority +50%) is so much more important than a big minority that the big minority shouldn't even have a say at all is just downright selfish and toxic.

You're shooting wide all over the place. I never seriously said that the masochistic minority who enjoys PvP should should zip it and go. If you're talking about the first post I made, that was deleted it; was a humorous jab at how bad PvP was that it should be treated like it doesn't exist anymore (as if the undoable act venting a virtual character into space and loading real people into a virtual ship and send it to the sun wasn't enough of a clue). Everything else was my opinion on how PvP was a lost cause and why it felt wrong, but nowhere did I say that you people should shut up and keep your opinions to yourself.

All I said was: despite 3 years of evolution; PvP was never received with praise by the playerbase at large. Most people would either be indifferent to it or dislike it. And because people aren't receiving it well, despite all the changes it went through for 3 years; maybe, JUST maybe, PvP just isn't something warframe's gameplay is good at delivering.

If you're still gonna take this the wrong way, I'd recommend eating a chocolate-coated nougat bar.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[Mastikator2]

36 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

You're shooting wide all over the place. I never seriously said that the masochistic minority who enjoys PvP should should zip it and go

No, you said "Remove conclave". Obviously that begs the question "what about the players that like conclave?"

Are you seriously telling me it's anything less than "well screw them, not my problem, remove conclave anyway"? Because there's no other way to justify such a toxic statement if you don't think that. Or were you just trolling, posting incendiary stuff to insult players?

If it's not, then please answer the question, what about the players who like conclave? Why should we not get to keep our liked game mode?

[Alucard-TheGrandVampire]

Ok so i had read your previous topic about conclave,however i completely disagree with you.You know me right,i'm the one who have a 1v1 match with you.I kill you,u left,u call me a puss for doing pakour stuff.I had saw your vid about conclave but that is you vs newbie and when you fight with someone know how to do parkour you call them puss??Everyone start from something,practice and improve your skill and you will be better.Ps:Do you know how hard to use those 1 shot weapon??not the melee one ofcourse,and call someone effort is hack isn't nice you know.

[HoakinBlackforge]

I would like to point some forgotten things here.

We have abilities, we have weapons of all kinds, and then we have melee. 

 

First, conclave in its first stages (i mean 2.0) it was fresh, unique, and while we still didnt had mobility 2.0, everyone seemed to enjoy it and nobody complained.

Then mobility 2.0 came, everything seemed fine at first. Later, the devs decided to nerf mobility A LOT, and everyone exploded in rage. It was reverted. We didnt even though about: "How do we balance this". Then, when changes to melee came (stuns), somehow, people screamed aganist it and managed to remove it. Thats when conclave really started to gown downhill.

We simply removed every possible variety on gameplay that conclave had, and turned it into another repetitive "gotta go fast" shooter where everything relies on your accuracy. Seems like only a part liked that, the rest left conclave forever. I always loved the hack&slash part that conclave had, like, everyone goes with guns, i go with a polearm and im going to freaking wreck you because i can.

Now all you definitions of "skill" simply revolve on spamming bullet jump and just having godlike accuracy, and abilities are "dishonorable". Yeah, its not dishonorable when my toxin chroma could kill 3 players in a single afterburn shot, but it is when an ability has a stun or CC.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

9 hours ago, HoakinBlackforge said:

 

Now all you definitions of "skill" simply revolve on spamming bullet jump and just having godlike accuracy, and abilities are "dishonorable". Yeah, its not dishonorable when my toxin chroma could kill 3 players in a single afterburn shot, but it is when an ability has a stun or CC.

Having godlike accuracy is skill. Having accuracy while you're jumping is even more skill. And who said abilities are dishonorable. I use my abilities all the time. Nobody at least on Xbox One has stopped using abilities because they are "dishonorable". I use abilities as boosts and finishers and I think many people still do.

Edited June 14, 2016 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022