Overpowered players

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Uh, sorry, but they don't. Sortie 3 missions are rarely difficult. Generally they get hard when it's Grineer + Augmented armor, Defense + radiation hazard, etc. but saying "I do sorties so I understand high-level content" is not a very strong argument. Raids (particularly nightmare LoR) require more teamwork and player skill, and are extremely difficult without good CC. Even WITH good CC, nightmare LoR can be very, very hard unless everyone knows exactly what they are doing and are skillful at their job. Min-maxed frames and weapons (but especially frames) are often a must, especially for critical frames like Mirage and Trin. Sorties are between normal starchart missions and raids, and this was stated when they were first introduced. You can argue that you understand high-level content if you do very long T4 survivals or Ceres survivals, but if you only run these for 1 hour or less then you haven't seen high levels.

So mini-maxing and specific frames along with CC spam fest and Bless and EV being mandatory. So are puzzles supposed to be the challenging part now? Is that the future of warframe?

6 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

 

Not at high levels. And saying "oh, just get headshots" is not a good argument for these enemies being poorly designed or weak.

Headshot multipliers always work. That doesn't mean it will kill in one shot or won't require any debuffs to kill faster.

6 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

This makes me think you haven't played many frames. Many frames have abilities that can kill level 100 units much easier than any weapon. For example, Nova, Excal, Ash, Ivara, Mesa, Banshee (res soundquake), Wukong, Valkyr, Nezha, Atlas, Frost, Nyx, and Saryn all have abilities that can either kill level 100 enemies outright or make them so weak that any weapon can finish them off. Equinox can also do this, and even Ember if you're able to spam accelerant. At extremely high levels, many of these fall off, and well-modded weapons are more reliable, but that generally requires support from warframe powers such as blinds or buffs of some kind (such as Banshee's resonance). Furthermore, most weapons fall off at level 100, so I feel like you based this statement on certain meta weapons such as the Tonkor or Simulor or Lanka.

Obviously all damage boosting mods would be king in high end since they scale like utility abilities. They still rely on weapons to finish the job or as base modifiers. What I'm talking about is pure damage abilities.

6 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Overall, I feel like you're missing two points:

1) warframe powers are interesting, powerful, and require skill and knowledge to play properly.

2) There are missions in this game where those powers are absolutely needed, and these missions are still quite hard even if those powers are used skillfully.

1.) They can also make enemies completely helpless and are now spammable

2.) Those missions were made with ability spamming in mind

[(XBOX)Beck117]

6 hours ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

Where I can see the other frames mentioned taking a hit. I'm curious to hear how Volt was taken down? I felt he was the only good thing out of all those changes and haven't seen much bad said about him.

His riot shield is a great idea, done terribly

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

So mini-maxing and specific frames along with CC spam fest and Bless and EV being mandatory. So are puzzles supposed to be the challenging part now? Is that the future of warframe?

*sigh*... you're still missing the point. The enemies and general teamwork related challenges are still challenging, even with min-maxed frames. It requires teamwork and good weapons and and people still die quite frequently. Ability spam is difficult due to nullifier drones, and during the hijack portion the pod takes damage easily. During the button room one enemy breaking out of CC can kill the entire squad (almost), and everyone needs to know their duties very well. The puzzles are definitely not the challenging part. In Jordas they are, but most people don't like that one. I hate to ask, but have you, in fact, ever done one of these? It's a little crazy for someone to say what the raids are like (and criticize them for it) if he's never done one...

 

2 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

They still rely on weapons to finish the job or as base modifiers. What I'm talking about is pure damage abilities.

You have completely misunderstood what I was saying. All of those frames can ability-kill level 100 enemies. For example, Nova's antimatter drop is one of the best-scaling abilities in the game, Banshee's soundquake can kill level 100 enemies easily, obviously Excal and Ash can ability kill at that level, Ivara wrecks at that level, etc. Are you sure you understand these frames?

 

2 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

1.) They can also make enemies completely helpless and are now spammable

Funny, those helpless enemies seem to kill people pretty frequently... Perhaps none of us know how to play, and you're the only one who knows? Or... maybe... you're exaggerating greatly in order to make your point and don't want to admit that some of us have made good points.

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

You have completely misunderstood what I was saying. All of those frames can ability-kill level 100 enemies. For example, Nova's antimatter drop is one of the best-scaling abilities in the game, Banshee's soundquake can kill level 100 enemies easily, obviously Excal and Ash can ability kill at that level, Ivara wrecks at that level, etc. Are you sure you understand these frames?

I'm starting to think the same also.  That he either doesn't understand those frame or under/over stating their capabilities.  I'm not sure just yet.

[Btabc]

14 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Yeah, it was a real challenge. Nova slowing everything down, vauban CC-ing, Trin supplying energy and health and Mirage boosting damage. And everyone used Tonkors for the "one hit".

....... Nvm, doesn't even matter.  Erased what I had on here... please ignore this post and good luck with this thread!

Edited June 19, 2016 by Btabc
Doesn't matter anyways... no point in trying to voice my opinion

[TheBrsrkr]

35 minutes ago, Btabc said:

And why was/is Tonkor the weapon of choice in these lvl 100+ missions?   It seems like your group was well prepared.  If you don't like it, why join that group? 

Another tired argument. What would not joining the group solve? He would still have to play in the same game with these things, and the problems they cause affect the entire game, not just those playing with them. Also, why should other players be forced to play around you or leave? Public games are for everyone. Also also, do you expect him to join a game, check the listing to see if someone has a Tonkor then leave if they do? Because that's just ridiculous. 

 

40 minutes ago, Btabc said:

 I think ANY weapon can "one hit" enemies if modded correctly.  

Then you are wrong. Simple as that. The only beam weapon that might be able to is the Opticor, the Furis and Afuris, Sonicor, most of the Throwing knives, even things like the Latron variants,  Tiberon, Burston and Braton Prime. There's quite a few others. So no, not every weapon can one shot enemies at the levels you're implicating. 

46 minutes ago, Btabc said:

.  Next people will complain that ANY weapon is too "OP".   If that's the case should Ignis be nerfed?  What about Penta, Angstrum or even Kulstar?  They've got a GREATER blast base damage than Tonkor, but those others have the opposite effect of using them, they could kill ourselves.

Here's where I stopped taking you seriously. Firstly, the Penta has all of 25 damage more than the Tonkor.  Quick question, is base damage the only stat that matters for total damage? No. Another big one is critical damage. That's how the Soma Prime with a base damage of 15 was one of the best weapons for over a year and is still a strong weapon today. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. Then why leave it out, besides for intellectual dishonesty? When you multiply the Tonkor's base damage by its base 2.5x multiplier, suddenly it's not worse than every other weapon you listed, right? As if by magic, it's now miles ahead of them,in a league of its own. 

 

The rest of this comment is a literal slippery slope fallacy by your own admission, and some ridiculous hyperbole and strawmanning not even worth going through. 

[Shockwave-]

On 6/17/2016 at 4:10 PM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

MR is not a sign of skill. A player can just farm draco and level MR fodder and reach high MR without ever having to tackle high end content. Furthermore, are you seriously saying that it took you so long to max serration that you reached MR 20 at a same time? A difference between a newbie and a vet should be in their application of game mechanics and not only in gear they use.

Never said it was, can you point to where I said MR is a sign of skill? You missed the ENTIRE point. What is the difference between a veteran player and a new player? Certainly not weapons, a new player can make a tonkor pretty early if they are told how good it is, so a new player will have a lvl 30 tonkor. They 1 of each potatoe and they will have a potatoed excal with a potatoed tonkor in their first week of play.  Get it?

So serration, and mods like it are the real level advancement, NOT MR.

As for how long it took, did you completely miss where I said it needs to be even harder to rank (make it primed) or even come up with a new way to rank that special mod (only with other serrations, etc).

[Yargami]

13 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Multishot mods are "free" damage multipliers. They are no better than serration. They have no downside and why do we even have an ammo economy if our core mods are designed to brake it?

   If you read the rest of my post instead of taking tiny chunks out of context you would notice that I am perfectly fine with having a downside to multishot. Just not the ammo consumption. Besides, multishot doesn't actually "brake" ammo consumption. I still have to pay attention to my ammo when deciding whether or not to engage a group of enemies. That is, unless you're using something like Draco as a measure of ammo consumption. There are so many ammo boxes there that I've done matches with launchers equipped to both primary and secondary slots (thus both using eachother's ammo) and still not run out of ammo.
 

13 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

What is the point of energy economy if energy shortage is never an issue? Just because you're not press 4 to win junkie doesn't mean the other 3 players won't spam the hell out of it. And cooldowns were already tried, but didn't work out.

   I was not arguing for cooldowns. I hate cooldowns (especially really long ones). What I was saying was more like the combo window that exists for a few abilities only increasing the cost instead of decreasing it. It wouldn't even have to be on all abilities. Maybe just put them on the more spammy abilities, although I'm sure no matter which abilities you chose to designate as spammy someone would cry about it. Also, like the ammo mentioned earlier, I often run out of energy (for this reason I usually take Energy Siphon even though some of the other auras are very useful). Yes energy isn't a huge problem if you sit in one spot using energy restores or have an EV Trinity you can sit there spamming all day, but that is not a problem that can be fixed by just nerfing efficiency. I think one major problem is that (as I mentioned in my previous post) people cry about gameplay being broken and then ask for a band-aid fix such as just nerf efficiency or put a cooldown on restores. These do not fix the core problem. The core problem is that Warframe is an evolving game and has to seek out a new balance every time it evolves. Sometimes this can take a long time to find. It should also be noted that the "problem" here is also one of the things that makes Warframe one of my favorite games to play. It continually evolves into a better game and the devs are actually participating with the community.
 

13 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Every 30 seconds? That's 400 bonus energy every 30 seconds. So the energy economy would still be as broken as ever.

   Every 30 seconds is not what I said. I said every 30 seconds *after* the previous one ends. Total that's 400 energy every 58 seconds. If you're actually in a situation that requires you to use up 400 energy a minute then I think it will be fine. I already touched on this under energy efficiency, but you can't just "fix" cheesing by making energy harder to get (nerfing efficiency and making energy rarer are both increasing ability cost relative to the available energy, thus the argument is similar). The abilities themselves also need to be tweaked, altered, or completely scrapped and redone in order to help with cheesing. It should also be noted that no matter what you do someone will find something to spam (this goes for abilities AND weapons). If you nerfed everything so hard that nothing at all could be spammed then Warframe would be extremely boring. The problem is finding that careful balance. Anytime someone calls for a drastic change (like completely removing damage mods) it means the devs would suddenly get a huge load of work completely redoing all stats on every weapon and every enemy in the game. It wouldn't just be a simple number tweak either. I completely understand the hesitation that the devs have to make major changes to the game. People tend to just assume that things can be fixed with a hotfix, but the dev team is working themselves to death anytime a major update or rework comes around.
 

13 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Elemental mods wouldn't just convert damage. They would also add a small bonus 20% per mod. The same would go for physical mods. The thought here was to discourage players from slapping 4 elemental mods just for bonus damage. This would also make physical damage builds viable again.

   We are pretty much in agreement here. I would like to see more focus on the utility of the elements rather than the pure damage. However, to re-iterate my previous comments, you can't just change one of the major aspects (modding) of the game and assume that the rest of the game will magically re-balance itself. Even something simple sounding like this change with the element mods would actually require balancing across all weapons, enemies, and even a lot of the warframes themselves.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Yargami

[Btabc]

5 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

...The rest of this comment is a literal slippery slope fallacy by your own admission, and some ridiculous hyperbole and strawmanning not even worth going through. 

You're correct, it's not worth going through.  Thank you!  It's just my opinion and if I'm wrong I'll admit it.  I was just getting to the point that if all these nerfs go into place, it'll eventually lead to complaining about anything and everything that people feel is unfair.  You don't need to take me seriously, but I was only talking about weapons that did more BLAST damage and weapons that I have used personally.  I do not have Soma Prime and just made soma and am moding it currently.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Btabc

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, Btabc said:

if all these nerfs go into place, it'll eventually lead to complaining about anything and everything that people feel is unfair

This literally already happens. You cannot stop people from complaining about what they find fair or unfair.

I've literally had people pop into missions I'm in and complain that Oberon needs to be toned back a bit because we were doing a low level alert and I was able to kill everything with Reckoning. Said person was a lower leveled player who was trailing behind and scouring the level for resources.

Is that complaint a justifiable one? Maybe to them, but in the overall picture it clearly isn't. People complain. It's normal. Not every complaint is valid and must be acted on.

[Btabc]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

This literally already happens. You cannot stop people from complaining about what they find fair or unfair.

I've literally had people pop into missions I'm in and complain that Oberon needs to be toned back a bit because we were doing a low level alert and I was able to kill everything with Reckoning. Said person was a lower leveled player who was trailing behind and scouring the level for resources.

Is that complaint a justifiable one? Maybe to them, but in the overall picture it clearly isn't. People complain. It's normal. Not every complaint is valid and must be acted on.

That's true, it does!  I know I starting to figure out that no matter what I (or anyone else) say, some people will JUST complain (like you said).  In some ways I think Oberon should be buffed or reworked, but I think DE is going to be adding more creatures so that'll come later.  Reckoning is a good/great skill and I like it a lot!  Thanks! :)

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

This literally already happens. You cannot stop people from complaining about what they find fair or unfair.

I've literally had people pop into missions I'm in and complain that Oberon needs to be toned back a bit because we were doing a low level alert and I was able to kill everything with Reckoning. Said person was a lower leveled player who was trailing behind and scouring the level for resources.

Is that complaint a justifiable one? Maybe to them, but in the overall picture it clearly isn't. People complain. It's normal. Not every complaint is valid and must be acted on.

I try holding back when on a lower lvl mission normally are using training weapons for the mastery rating..tho I am overly nice ill ask if its OK to use full strength...I would guess it just gets boring not being able to kill enemies fast not really your fault but its a train of thought

[Chipputer]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Itz chibi said:

I try holding back when on a lower lvl mission normally are using training weapons for the mastery rating..tho I am overly nice ill ask if its OK to use full strength...I would guess it just gets boring not being able to kill enemies fast not really your fault but its a train of thought

I generally don't hold back on lower level alerts. I do, however, grab fresh Mk1 weapons whenever I'm running low level content specifically to help out lower leveled players or friends new to the game.

They way I see it is that if I need something from the mission then it's fair game for me to run in there and wreck face in it. That doesn't mean I don't see the opposite viewpoint, but when you're in a party of 4 for a Nitain and you're searching for each individual thing that can yield resources... well...

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

I generally don't hold back on lower level alerts. I do, however, grab fresh Mk1 weapons whenever I'm running low level content specifically to help out lower leveled players or friends new to the game.

They way I see it is that if I need something from the mission then it's fair game for me to run in there and wreck face in it. That doesn't mean I don't see the opposite viewpoint, but when you're in a party of 4 for a Nitain and you're searching for each individual thing that can yield resources... well...

I just went back and mastered those the mk-1 bo is pretty strong if you have the mods I just go down the stores list of weapons now

[blackheartstar_pc]

On 6/18/2016 at 11:31 PM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Yeah, it was a real challenge. Nova slowing everything down, vauban CC-ing, Trin supplying energy and health and Mirage boosting damage. And everyone used Tonkors for the "one hit".

 

 

Not one of those things you mentioned were in my run. You are full of incorrect assumptions about what others do and how they play.

Edited June 20, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[BOLDRapture]

I mean you could do what OP said, but i can assure you all the people who dump hundreds of hours in this game to have top tier builds wont be happy. Personally this game wouldnt be worth my time if that happened. I would sooner just play a different game than try to completely change how i go about playing the game this coming from someone with 2000+ hrs in the game. The fun of the game is to try to become the best you can and if you are constantly nerfing weapons and warframes (effiency and damage) then you are destroying the motivation to keep playing. 

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, BOLDRapture said:

I mean you could do what OP said, but i can assure you all the people who dump hundreds of hours in this game to have top tier builds wont be happy. Personally this game wouldnt be worth my time if that happened. I would sooner just play a different game than try to completely change how i go about playing the game this coming from someone with 2000+ hrs in the game. The fun of the game is to try to become the best you can and if you are constantly nerfing weapons and warframes (effiency and damage) then you are destroying the motivation to keep playing. 

I completely agree with this.  What I like most about games like this and RPGs is the quest to become OP.  Then I like to take that OP character and have all kinds of fun.  either by using New Game+ or redoing previous missions.  If I work my arse off to be OP, then don't take that option from me after I've done all the work to get there.  I'm getting that OP doesn't like that idea.  I waited until I was sure that was OP's case.  

[BOLDRapture]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I completely agree with this.  What I like most about games like this and RPGs is the quest to become OP.  Then I like to take that OP character and have all kinds of fun.  either by using New Game+ or redoing previous missions.  If I work my arse off to be OP, then don't take that option from me after I've done all the work to get there.  I'm getting that OP doesn't like that idea.  I waited until I was sure that was OP's case.  

I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that if you were to add OP's ideas that you would loose the bulk of the loyal players and be left with players that didnt really play the game as much, let alone spend money on it. 

[--Q--uaint]

I appear to be a bit late in replying. Oh well.

On 6/15/2016 at 4:45 AM, kleerr2 said:

Ok, and what if there are a very few enemies with special conditions, that could… idk save their comrades from a cc somehow, while not being affected by said cc? You just need like 2 or 3 of those in the same time to make things more interesting. You know, power mitigation is a good aspect, when it is not the ''every kind'' of power that gets mitigated…

And guess what, you can already trivialize content with rhino as is, so…

A high RoF weapon can trivialize Nullifiers pretty well. All they do is enforce vigilance and thus make things less fun for everyone involved, IMO.

A small number of enemies, unless they're somewhere near the battlefield staying-power of a Juggernaught, will probably not really change things much. If we had power-mitigators with staying power, maybe? Could be interesting, but DE loves to give enemies like that uberpowerful attacks so they just become the priority target.
Imagine if the Ancient Disruptors (and maybe Toxics) lost their auras, and a Juggernaught without the spines or toxic thing with the Disruptor aura got added as a heavy to the common enemies. This Disruptornaught would not have the tools to do much damage, but he would support his allies well and be hard to kill without actually focusing on him.

I suppose if you had the enemies actually acting in fireteams clustered around the power-mitigators you could get something interesting going on if they moved strategically, but I don’t think DE’s prepared to do that level of an AI overhaul.

I know you can already trivialize content with Rhino. What I'm saying is, having the enemies simply be smarter is probably not going to work. The Grineer especially have no tools to save themselves from endless CC, so they could all be philosophers and it wouldn’t help them.

[Azrael]

13 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

This Disruptornaught would not have the tools to do much damage, but he would support his allies well and be hard to kill without actually focusing on him.

This part makes sense, actually. I'm not sure about this particular enemy, but support units are supposed to be, well, support. For some reason in warframe enemy support units are frequently some of the most dangerous, e.g ancients, nullifiers, scrambus units, mutalist moas, shock eximi etc.

I wouldn't mind adding some more enemy types that are focused on support. They wouldn't do much damage, but would be a force multiplier for others that do. Summoners are an example, or any enemy unit that buffs or protects their allies. Granted, the corpus have shield drones, but they never seem to do very much...

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Granted, the corpus have shield drones, but they never seem to do very much...

They help to inflate my kill count.  hehe.  

P.S.  At this point in the discussion, I'm just trolling to help people laugh or smile.  Hopefully they/you all will and not get too serious about this topic.  

[--Q--uaint]

2 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

This part makes sense, actually.

Thanks :3

3 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

I wouldn’t mind adding some more enemy types that are focused on support.

Grineer regulators are actually a decent example. They don’t really do much on paper in combat, but they mess up your minimap and are distracting.

5 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Summoners are an example

Drahk Masters are a pretty good example here. They're not really super-damaging, but they can steal your weapon and summon enemies that are quick enough to be somewhat evasive.
Hyekka Masters are NOT.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

On 6/18/2016 at 10:19 PM, Lord_Azrael said:

The real problem is that there are no true high-level nodes. That's why I was so happy when the level 85 Rathuum arena came out. I was like "YES! Finally we almost have a high-level node!"  :)

Bet you're happy about devstream #76, then. Those T4 void tears were labeled as lv50-70. It seems like T4's flat 3x enemy stats are going away, and being replaced by actual level-appropriate enemies. If they also adjust scaling, T4 might be a challenge without also being utter horseS#&$. Currently, T4 starts at 20 for interception, 20-25 for defense/survival, and 30-40 for MD. The lower tiers appear to have received a level bump as well. Awesome. Looks like they've given this some real thought.

Edited June 20, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[xXduncanXx]

On 15/6/2016 at 7:26 PM, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

You seem to have confused re-works and balancing with nerfs

yeah i  did a little bit, but  well... we were told that we will receive a tonkor nerf  and i'm not ok with that 

and about the reworks: you can call it balancing, but in means of strenght it is a nerf, at least for some aspects

 

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

11 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I suppose if you had the enemies actually acting in fireteams clustered around the power-mitigators you could get something interesting going on if they moved strategically, but I don’t think DE’s prepared to do that level of an AI overhaul.

Funny enough, enemies actually already do that, they just generally don't survive long enough. Enemies will crowd around Arctic Eximi, Shield Lancers, and any Ancient (It's more noticeable with the Corrupted funny enough, since the Infested generally just charge and mob)