Overpowered players

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

On 19. 6. 2016 at 0:26 PM, Lord_Azrael said:

*sigh*... you're still missing the point. The enemies and general teamwork related challenges are still challenging, even with min-maxed frames. It requires teamwork and good weapons and and people still die quite frequently. Ability spam is difficult due to nullifier drones, and during the hijack portion the pod takes damage easily. During the button room one enemy breaking out of CC can kill the entire squad (almost), and everyone needs to know their duties very well. The puzzles are definitely not the challenging part. In Jordas they are, but most people don't like that one. I hate to ask, but have you, in fact, ever done one of these? It's a little crazy for someone to say what the raids are like (and criticize them for it) if he's never done one...

No, I've never done LOTR, so I'm obviously not entitled to talk about game balance on any level. I'm obviously misinformed in thinking that LOTR is a CC spammfest
 with a narrow selection of frames and little room for error.

On 19. 6. 2016 at 0:26 PM, Lord_Azrael said:

You have completely misunderstood what I was saying. All of those frames can ability-kill level 100 enemies. For example, Nova's antimatter drop is one of the best-scaling abilities in the game, Banshee's soundquake can kill level 100 enemies easily, obviously Excal and Ash can ability kill at that level, Ivara wrecks at that level, etc. Are you sure you understand these frames?

Sure, AMD scales great if you ever get a chance to charge it. Excal, Ivara, Mesa can ability kill because their ults scale with OP weapon mods and Ash deals true damage (conveniently ignoring the armor of the armor faction) while being able to stab enemies multiple times and being invulnerable while doing it. I've yet to see soundquake kill unprimed "armored" level 100 enemies in any reasonable amount of time. How about you try to kill level 100 enemies with Reconing, WoF, Crush, Prism, Discharge, Rhino stomp,... and don't use 4xCP because you can't deny that stripping the armor faction of their armor is basically "permitted" cheating.

On 19. 6. 2016 at 0:26 PM, Lord_Azrael said:

Funny, those helpless enemies seem to kill people pretty frequently... Perhaps none of us know how to play, and you're the only one who knows? Or... maybe... you're exaggerating greatly in order to make your point and don't want to admit that some of us have made good points.

They do? Do they resist player CC or are your abilities just getting nullified? I really have much to learn about warframe. Where do I have to go to fight these enemies that can easily kill me even when disarmed, blind and barely moving?

On 19. 6. 2016 at 4:12 PM, Shockwave- said:

Never said it was, can you point to where I said MR is a sign of skill? You missed the ENTIRE point. What is the difference between a veteran player and a new player? Certainly not weapons, a new player can make a tonkor pretty early if they are told how good it is, so a new player will have a lvl 30 tonkor. They 1 of each potatoe and they will have a potatoed excal with a potatoed tonkor in their first week of play.  Get it?

So serration, and mods like it are the real level advancement, NOT MR.

The difference is that a veteran should be able to use game mechanics to a degree that most noobs simply couldn't match. All the leveled mods and gear would be the other obvious indicator. I personally think leveling serration is not a "true" sign of player progress. I'll agree that getting more damage in statistics oriented game is an obvious sign of progress, but it's a flat one IMO.  For example: player A likes to play Necros spamming 3 and does a lot of defense for farming mods while player B prefers to play alone and mostly does quick missions. How is a player A "better" then player B? Judging by your measure of progress player A is obviously progressing better. The result of such a system is a focus on GRINDING.

My measure of progress would demand players to actually get better if they wanted to do more damage beyond a certain point.

16 hours ago, BOLDRapture said:

I mean you could do what OP said, but i can assure you all the people who dump hundreds of hours in this game to have top tier builds wont be happy. Personally this game wouldn't be worth my time if that happened. I would sooner just play a different game than try to completely change how i go about playing the game this coming from someone with 2000+ hrs in the game. The fun of the game is to try to become the best you can and if you are constantly nerfing weapons and warframes (effiency and damage) then you are destroying the motivation to keep playing. 

Those "top tier" builds could still wipe the floor with enemies provided their users had "top tier" skills to match. But it's true that you would be in for a rough ride, if you failed to master the game mechanics in those 2000+ hours of gameplay.

[Shockwave-]

49 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The difference is that a veteran should be able to use game mechanics to a degree that most noobs simply couldn't match. All the leveled mods and gear would be the other obvious indicator. I personally think leveling serration is not a "true" sign of player progress. I'll agree that getting more damage in statistics oriented game is an obvious sign of progress, but it's a flat one IMO.  For example: player A likes to play Necros spamming 3 and does a lot of defense for farming mods while player B prefers to play alone and mostly does quick missions. How is a player A "better" then player B? Judging by your measure of progress player A is obviously progressing better. The result of such a system is a focus on GRINDING.

My measure of progress would demand players to actually get better if they wanted to do more damage beyond a certain point.

 

Huh? You aren't making sense. Progress in a game like this with frames with levels and gear with levels isn't just game mechanics (of which there are few). There is nothign wrong with time of play = some progression. In many games it is experience gained from killing bad guys (think WOW, etc) or questing. Getting a character level.

In WF it is killing bad guys as well, but it takes the form of fusion core drops that let you increase your mods - same thing whether measured in fusion core drops or experience. It's not a focus on grinding, but getting more 'experienced' is a dual channel, skill is one and gear/equipment is another.

You really think there is all that much difference between a new player with a potoated excal and tonkor and veteran? You don't think a player get a lvl 30 tonkor, lvl 30 excal and 2 potato alerts before he finishes the star chart. Does this setup make the star chat a cake walk?

My measure of progress stops this and allows DE to balance the game based on equipment progression (with skill meaning you get take on better opponents than you 'should' while having less skill means you can't).

[Mr.Lube]

On 6/15/2016 at 4:36 AM, xXduncanXx said:

no, just no, we already got a lot of nerfs lately we don't want  more 

 

 

Simply nerfing Warframes here and there isn't going to fix the real problem, which is the energy system. The current energy system allows us to spam our abilities to an ungodly degree, and have toggle-able ultimates on throughout the entire mission. It's broken and need to be toned down, no matter what anybody else says.

[PH03N1XUS]

Oh god no. My maxed Pressure Point and Serration are like 80% of the damage I deal with my weapons. Take those, and most of my arsenal goes to poop. On top of that, we've been seeing a lot of nerfs lately, so please, heavens no. I really enjoy this game and don't want to see it go to hell.

[--Q--uaint]

5 hours ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Funny enough, enemies actually already do that

They definitely cluster, sure, but they don’t actually act with coordination. If the clusters moved and fired as a group, and coordinated their strikes with other such groups, the game would be much more difficult and interesting.

[Azrael]

7 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

No, I've never done LOTR, so I'm obviously not entitled to talk about game balance on any level. I'm obviously misinformed in thinking that LOTR is a CC spammfest
 with a narrow selection of frames and little room for error.

First of all, I don't care whether you've played Lord of the Rings or not, this is warframe. (just kidding, it was too good to pass up :) )

Okay, I promise this is my last comment on this. Your argument is basically that nothing in the game is hard, and that's just plain wrong. The fact that you haven't played LoR or nightmare LoR matters because you're claiming that these are easy without ever having done them, which is pretty silly and arrogant. You've pretty much admitted that you've never done any of the hard content other than sorties (for example, ever done a 2 hour T4 survival?), so I'd appreciate it if you didn't make claims about the content you've never played.

Does LoR have little room for error? Yes! Especially the nightmare one. Is it a CC spamfest? Kinda. But there's 3 things you don't understand, that you would understand if you did them regularly. First, it's still hard even with CC, and people still die all the time unless they are very good, and sometimes even then. Keeping the CC up is a task in itself, and enemies routinely kill people despite it. Second, players worked for hundreds of hours perfecting the builds that allow them to make LoR into a CC spamfest, because it's not easy. Third, in nightmare LoR CC is very limited, due to the nullifier drones that are literally everywhere.

 

8 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Sure, AMD scales great if you ever get a chance to charge it. Excal, Ivara, Mesa can ability kill because their ults scale with OP weapon mods and Ash deals true damage (conveniently ignoring the armor of the armor faction) while being able to stab enemies multiple times and being invulnerable while doing it. I've yet to see soundquake kill unprimed "armored" level 100 enemies in any reasonable amount of time. How about you try to kill level 100 enemies with Reconing, WoF, Crush, Prism, Discharge, Rhino stomp

Your points about abilities being weak are asinine. Just because an ability scales off of weapon mods does not mean it doesn't count as an ability that can kill at level 100. And Rhino? Oberon? Your earlier statement was "guns one-shot level 100 enemies that abilities only tickle" or something to that effect, and in evidence of this you bring up CC-oriented abilities that aren't used for damage? You think abilities can't kill at level 100 because some of them aren't damage-oriented? Discharge, I'll admit, needs some work, but they *just* nerfed it. WoF actually can kill at that level, if you know how to use it in conjunction with accelerant, as I mentioned earlier. But even WoF is regarded as a CC ability at high levels. Just what point are you trying to make here?

And what is this about "if you ever get a chance to charge antimatter drop? It's really easy to charge, you can even do it without a weapon. I don't know what you're complaining about here.

 

Let me tell you a story. Remember Shadow Debt? Remember the endurance mission at the end of Shadow Debt? Me and a few friends of mine did 55 waves in that mission. It was insanely hard. We tried and failed several times before we got it right. We had a Trin (that was me), an Atlas, a Nova, and... maybe an Ash? I kinda forget the last one. Anyway, by wave 50 the Nova was literally the only player capable of killing anything. Everyone else was helpless. I brought my 6 forma tonkor, but for some reason my War was doing better by then (probably due to ground finishers), but it took me several minutes to kill one carabus drone so I was totally dependent on the Nova to kill stuff. And you think CC helped? Sure, but we died a *lot*, I think one of us was on his last revive when we extracted. So go ahead and tell me that weapons are way stronger than warframe powers, and that the mission was easy because it was a "CC spamfest."

 

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

41 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

They definitely cluster, sure, but they don’t actually act with coordination. If the clusters moved and fired as a group, and coordinated their strikes with other such groups, the game would be much more difficult and interesting.

They actually literally do that, the animations for it are just kinda janky. If you see a Shield Lancer, look for another Grineer behind him*. (The downside is the Lancer will literally put his shield aside so he and the fella behind him can shoot at you, they also tend to move together, which makes them both move and advance slowly) Lancer and Elite Crewman tend to huddle around Arctic Eximi when they have their ice shield up, firing as a group, and normal MOA's tend to gather in little flocks too when they stop to shoot.

*Punch Through tends to kill them both

And since we are on the topic of OP players, that's why we don't see it that much, because that group or formation is usually dead with one Tonkor 'nade, or even a Penta one if you stick the ice shield or set a trap. Things at lower to mid levels tend to die pretty quick if you have half decent mods on your frame and weapons and aren't Helen Keller when it comes to TPS's or shooters in general

[CharlesSnippy]

Basically, we need a stat crunch applied to the mods. I don't necessarily think things like serration should go completely, but it should be closer to +30% than the absurd numbers mods get us up to now.

Converting damage types with mods is a great idea, if things are all balanced around base weapons, with mods simply modifying the weapon rather than increasing it's power, we'll be able to avoid the current issues of absurdly OP players and the only challenging enemies being similarly absurd.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

2 hours ago, CharlesSnippy said:

Basically, we need a stat crunch applied to the mods. I don't necessarily think things like serration should go completely, but it should be closer to +30% than the absurd numbers mods get us up to now.

Converting damage types with mods is a great idea, if things are all balanced around base weapons, with mods simply modifying the weapon rather than increasing it's power, we'll be able to avoid the current issues of absurdly OP players and the only challenging enemies being similarly absurd.

And punch through should have a small bit of damage fall off for every enemy/ piece of terrain pierced (except Grineer Shield Lancer shields, those are thin af) It'll give Blunts an actual use because as soon as people get punch through any Grineer hidden behind one will get smoked like one

[Mattoropael]

3 hours ago, CharlesSnippy said:

Basically, we need a stat crunch applied to the mods. I don't necessarily think things like serration should go completely, but it should be closer to +30% than the absurd numbers mods get us up to now.

Converting damage types with mods is a great idea, if things are all balanced around base weapons, with mods simply modifying the weapon rather than increasing it's power, we'll be able to avoid the current issues of absurdly OP players and the only challenging enemies being similarly absurd.

The insane stat still ends up falling short when facing the even more insane enemy scaling, especially when it comes to Grineer (and Grineer-based Corrupted) armor.

Until enemy scaling is redone, leave the system alone. You have no idea what you're tinkering with.

 

4 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

They definitely cluster, sure, but they don’t actually act with coordination. If the clusters moved and fired as a group, and coordinated their strikes with other such groups, the game would be much more difficult and interesting.

They actually do cluster in a meaningful way. Look closely at how the Corpus and Corrupted tend to stay inside a Nullifier's bubble to make your day that much worse.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Mattoropael

[-CM-Emptiness]

4 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Okay, I promise this is my last comment on this.

Mine too. Since OP skipped my latest post (about the 4th time around now).

12 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

No, I've never done LOTR, so I'm obviously not entitled to talk about game balance on any level.

You can talk about balance on the lower end, but unfortunately a progression system works much better than your suggestions.

12 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

They do? Do they resist player CC or are your abilities just getting nullified? I really have much to learn about warframe. Where do I have to go to fight these enemies that can easily kill me even when disarmed, blind and barely moving?

The content waits, but you refuse to come...

12 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The difference is that a veteran should be able to use game mechanics to a degree that most noobs simply couldn't match. All the leveled mods and gear would be the other obvious indicator. I personally think leveling serration is not a "true" sign of player progress. I'll agree that getting more damage in statistics oriented game is an obvious sign of progress, but it's a flat one IMO.  For example: player A likes to play Necros spamming 3 and does a lot of defense for farming mods while player B prefers to play alone and mostly does quick missions. How is a player A "better" then player B? Judging by your measure of progress player A is obviously progressing better. The result of such a system is a focus on GRINDING.

My measure of progress would demand players to actually get better if they wanted to do more damage beyond a certain point.

Those "top tier" builds could still wipe the floor with enemies provided their users had "top tier" skills to match. But it's true that you would be in for a rough ride, if you failed to master the game mechanics in those 2000+ hours of gameplay.

Smells like elitism. Sorry, but your 'measure of progress' i.e. Replacing Serration with Skill-indexed mods forces players to attempt to get better in order to do reasonable damage.

Player progress is obtaining and leveling mods and gear. It is NOT damage statistics nor player skill. Don't try too hard to confuse yourself.

A and B are like Apples and Bananas. Why would you even compare the two, unless you feel the need to express player skill as the center-point of Warframe. Again, smells like elitism.

About your weapons suggestion:

You claim OP weapons, but really, all you can name is Tonkor and a few others. Removing mandatory mods affects all weapons to the same degree. So if Tonkor takes two hits to kill an armored enemy, a Braton would take over 100 to the head for the same enemy, same ratio as current. Completely flawed reasoning there.

 

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

5 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Your points about abilities being weak are asinine. Just because an ability scales off of weapon mods does not mean it doesn't count as an ability that can kill at level 100. And Rhino? Oberon? Your earlier statement was "guns one-shot level 100 enemies that abilities only tickle" or something to that effect, and in evidence of this you bring up CC-oriented abilities that aren't used for damage? You think abilities can't kill at level 100 because some of them aren't damage-oriented? Discharge, I'll admit, needs some work, but they *just* nerfed it. WoF actually can kill at that level, if you know how to use it in conjunction with accelerant, as I mentioned earlier. But even WoF is regarded as a CC ability at high levels. Just what point are you trying to make here?

 The fact that those abilities scale of OP weapon mods is a crucial fact. Remember a time before peacekeeper scaled of mods? Are there any ultimates other than Blade storm that don't scale of weapon mods that can reliably kill level 100 enemies? Just because an ultimate has a cc element doesn't mean it's not meant to kill enemies. WoF can melt anything below T4 endless missions. After a certain point all abilities with a CC element turn into CC abilities if the damage doesn't scale. I would also love to see WoF kill a 100k EHP level 100 corrupted lancer in any reasonable amount of time without all the other buffer abilities and 4xCP.

 

Quote

And what is this about "if you ever get a chance to charge antimatter drop? It's really easy to charge, you can even do it without a weapon. I don't know what you're complaining about here.

 

Having to aim AMD at the enemies as it travels means you get your face filled with lead unless you have antimatter absorb.

35 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Smells like elitism. Sorry, but your 'measure of progress' i.e. Replacing Serration with Skill-indexed mods forces players to attempt to get better in order to do reasonable damage.

Right back at you. The only difference is that the current elitism is based on sinking countless hours into grinding to get the cores and ducats to buy and max all mods.

Quote

Player progress is obtaining and leveling mods and gear. It is NOT damage statistics nor player skill. Don't try too hard to confuse yourself.

 Why do you bother with leveling all the mods and gear if not for the fact that you'll be able do more: damage, have more EHP, more powerfull abilities,... Saying the end result is not the motivation in a statistics oriented game is pretty silly.

Quote

You claim OP weapons, but really, all you can name is Tonkor and a few others. Removing mandatory mods affects all weapons to the same degree. So if Tonkor takes two hits to kill an armored enemy, a Braton would take over 100 to the head for the same enemy, same ratio as current. Completely flawed reasoning there.

All the "meta" weapons basically. Tonkor, Synoid simulor, Vaykor Hek, Sancti Tigris, Boltor prime, Soma prime, and so on. But my point from the begging was that these weapons being overpowered was mostly the fault of weapon mods that end up with insane multipliers. The mods only exacerbate the inherent power creep problem.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Fuzzy-Bunny

[Soulden]

Well written post, just not well throughout.

Warframe is about overpowering hordes of enemies, not 1 on 1 combat (see Bombards or any heavy unit)'
I know, I know, there are lots of shooters out there, is really easy to expect Warframe to be on par if you dont look past the aiming reticle .

On 6/15/2016 at 3:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Elemental damage mods should convert existing damage to their element. Something like converting 40% of stock damage to their element while adding 20% bonus (max rank). This would also have the side effect of making the physical damage type mods viable.

Knowing DE, they will follow your advice + troll you and apply it to physical damage as well.
You can guess, elemental dmg mods win again. 

Good intentions behind your post though.

[Slaviar]

2 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 

All the "meta" weapons basically. Tonkor, Synoid simulor, Vaykor Hek, Sancti Tigris, Boltor prime, Soma prime, and so on. But my point from the begging was that these weapons being overpowered was mostly the fault of weapon mods that end up with insane multipliers. The mods only exacerbate the inherent power creep problem.

 

 

Boltor and Soma are not overpowered...

[Azrael]

2 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Having to aim AMD at the enemies as it travels means you get your face filled with lead unless you have antimatter absorb.

I do not have this problem, because I understand how to use it. Remember that it has a decent range, goes through walls and objects, and the ball will "stick" for a second to a surface before exploding. So cast it at your feet or at a nearby surface, and shoot it when it hits the wall or floor and "sticks." It will charge then explode. In all, using AMD takes about a second, or maybe a second and a half. You're not supposed to send it down a hallway and then stand there letting them shoot you. Unless, of course, you have the augment. And what, exactly, is wrong with using the augment?

 

2 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 The fact that those abilities scale of OP weapon mods is a crucial fact. Remember a time before peacekeeper scaled of mods? Are there any ultimates other than Blade storm that don't scale of weapon mods that can reliably kill level 100 enemies? Just because an ultimate has a cc element doesn't mean it's not meant to kill enemies. WoF can melt anything below T4 endless missions. After a certain point all abilities with a CC element turn into CC abilities if the damage doesn't scale. I would also love to see WoF kill a 100k EHP level 100 corrupted lancer in any reasonable amount of time without all the other buffer abilities and 4xCP.

You know what? I'm not even going to respond this time. I'll just ask the same question again: what point are you trying to make? That eventually powers fall off? Of course they do! Weapons do too, and they fall off faster in many cases than powers. So what point, exactly, are you making here? I'm genuinely confused.

[TheBrsrkr]

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Boltor and Soma are not overpowered...

They are just as overpowered as they always were. Things being more overpowered than others doesn't make the other things less overpowered. 

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

They are just as overpowered as they always were. Things being more overpowered than others doesn't make the other things less overpowered. 

No they aren't.  If they are over powered, then what does that make the Dex Sybaris and all my Bows.  Think about your answer before you respond, please. 

[--Q--uaint]

11 hours ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

They actually literally do that, the animations for it are just kinda janky. If you see a Shield Lancer, look for another Grineer behind him

Sure, but that's not really meaningful coordination. Especially, as you pointed out, with punchthrough. It's also not coordination between groups of fireteams.

11 hours ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Lancer and Elite Crewman tend to huddle around Arctic Eximi when they have their ice shield up, firing as a group, and normal MOA's tend to gather in little flocks too when they stop to shoot.

They huddle, sure, but I've yet to see evidence of them actually firing as a group. They will tend to attack the same target, sure, but it's also pretty common for them to divide their fire.

MOAs gather in flocks because they all stop at about the same distance to shoot. They don't move in groups, generally, unless you let a group form and then just run away with them still aggro'd on you.

8 hours ago, Mattoropael said:

They actually do cluster in a meaningful way. Look closely at how the Corpus and Corrupted tend to stay inside a Nullifier's bubble to make your day that much worse.

They're just clustered, not really coordinated, though. If they fired with coordination and coordinated when they attacked with other clusters, that would be actual coordination.

As it is, they just kinda stick to each other like a group of lost tourists -They may be together, but they're still wandering aimlessly.

[o.0-]

I still feel that a good solution should be to tweak mods to scale with enemy level and make a few other related tweaks, so that more of the game can be challenging at any level and any mix of mods.

Players like me, would still be able to tackle tougher content, having our fully ranked mods available for that level of content. And the result should be as the enemies are capable of doing more, being more varied and tougher; that the player will have the tools to handle those situations, while allowing a fully ranked and optimized build to still feel something of a challenge if doing low level content with newer players, such as helping someone out or doing various Invasions or Alerts.

So the points I think that the devs needs to explore are:

• Mods should see scaling, say set the scaling against level 100 Enemies, for where the mods would be at full strength once fully ranked. Against Level 1 to 5, Mods provide their benefit at Rank zero or One and increase capping at their highest unlocked rank.
  • This way there is still an incentive to rank mods and more of the existing solar system can be more of a challenge.
  • Players' Mods would eventually cap, and enemies can grow stronger on endless missions and it is still important to rank them up for harder content and then keep coordinated as it currently progresses, but there would also be an opportunity for varying gameplay in an existing endless mission.
  • Such a structure for powering Mods to enemy level, also should give the devs a better structure in trying to determine player power against how tough they want enemies to be. Sorties seem to be a way to match fully ranked mods in enemy power level, so it seemed natural to pursue this avenue for structure the power of Mods.
• Multi-Shot mods should not increase overall damage.
  • These mods should only increase the number of projectiles per shot for more chances at proc'ing status effects.
  • As such more pellets reduces the damage per pellet to keep Overall damage unchanged. Seems a fair trade-off to me.
  • And does not get into affecting ammo consumption, which can be very poor already on many weapons.
• Elemental damage mods should no longer Combo. Standalone mods should be created and possibly limit to one type of additional Element on weapons.
  • I'd have further common sense limits, such as Firearms that fire solid bullets cannot add Elemental Damage
  • The same would apply to Energy Weapons not being able to add Chemical or Physical damage mods or Chemical/Biological weapons not being able to add Energy Mods
  • With such a setup with Damage output, a few weapons and classes would not see restrictions such as Bows, Launchers and Shotguns, being able to fire special arrows or load a special warhead.
• Rework Crits so that weapons that can harm multiple enemies no longer benefit at least from Head Crits (can boost their base damage after testing).
  • Weapons that need to kill one at a time should be able to retain the ability to crit on hitting weakpoints.
  • This aspect has been a factor in power creep and seems plausible to control with adjusting Crit Chance on individual weapons.
• Restores could be given a timer, as how Air Support Charges work.
  • 2 minutes between uses, could be a decent starting point for testing.

With such changes, Enemies will need to be adjusted as well, to match the mod scaling and reduced damage from Elemental sources, so the effort should be worth it to help improve on the rough edges in Warframe.

So the hope is that the solar system can keep its structure of increasing difficulty and progression, while also allowing optimized builds with fully ranked mods to face more challenges regardless of where players choose to go.

[Slaviar]

3 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

They are just as overpowered as they always were. Things being more overpowered than others doesn't make the other things less overpowered. 

Weapons with 30k dps and poor ammo efficiency... yup, they are definitely overpowered

[Prany]

6 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

Weapons with 30k dps and poor ammo efficiency... yup, they are definitely overpowered

Ah, I remember days when scraping at 20k dps would make us S#&$ our pants.

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

You know what? I'm not even going to respond this time. I'll just ask the same question again: what point are you trying to make? That eventually powers fall off? Of course they do! Weapons do too, and they fall off faster in many cases than powers. So what point, exactly, are you making here? I'm genuinely confused.

My point is that the point when most of the damage powers fall off is in a way meant to be the balanced level warframes were supposed to face. What is the point in damaging abilities if all we use them for is their utility/cc component if they have them? The fact that we can keep going when most of our damage abilities fail to kill consistently means we can rely on weapons to carry us. And they do, thanks to the weapon mods and power creep in weapons we get to fight and kill enemies that have EHP way above 100k and can kill us with a few or even a single shot if they get the chance to fire.

Players will complain that enemies are OP for oneshoting them while failing to comprehend that enemy damage is actually scaling slower than their EHP (a lot slower in armored enemies). The fact that we can reach this point means that players do so much damage and can spam disabling abilities that enemies have to be scaled to ridiculous levels to offer a challenge.

[Azrael]

6 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The fact that we can keep going when most of our damage abilities fail to kill consistently means we can rely on weapons to carry us. And they do, thanks to the weapon mods and power creep in weapons we get to fight and kill enemies that have EHP way above 100k and can kill us with a few or even a single shot if they get the chance to fire.

Okay, I understand your point about enemy scaling, and I do think that adjustments need to be made. I'm looking forward to damage 3.0, too. I prefer it when enemies scale by being faster and using better tactics and abilities. It just bothers me when - in support of your position - you say things that are inaccurate. For example, I've already pointed out that some abilities scale better than weapons. It's actually not at all hard to get to the point where most weapons become next to useless on their own, no matter how they're modded. Actually, it's synergies between weapons and powers that scale the best, which is how it should be. For example, one of the best scaling combos in the game is a good weapon with Banshee's Sonar ability. Mirage's blind pairs amazingly with a fast melee weapon with good status, etc.

It's also kinda frustrating when you accuse raids of being easy CC spam-fests and suggest that nobody can die when CC is in use. If you don't play high-level content, you really can't talk about balance at that point in the game. I understand that you hear a lot from other players and those descriptions might seem like they are enough, but they've led you to believe some things that just aren't true. Those of us who do raids and 2 hour survivals feel like you're telling us that we're wrong about what high-level content is like, and that can feel a little insulting.

The fact is that high-level play is challenging and fun. It also requires a solid understanding of how to get the most possible out of your warframe and weapons. Such missions can get quite tense, because a single mistake can get everyone killed in an instant. Even if everyone does everything perfectly, people will still die, because CC is not the end-of-all-challenge-button that you make it out to be.

That's all I'm trying to say, really. I DO like the idea of re-doing the mods and scaling to allow more build variation, I just haven't yet found a scheme that really seems to work. For one thing, we still need a sense of progression, of getting more powerful and being powerful. This is what a lot of people like about warframe, and we have to make sure that any proposed solution does a good job of preserving that.

[TheBrsrkr]

4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

No they aren't.  If they are over powered, then what does that make the Dex Sybaris and all my Bows.  Think about your answer before you respond, please. 

The Dex Sybaris has an effectively 7 round mag, and bows take time to draw, aim and fire. Time that can be spent on other weapons pew pewing away to their heart's content. They are not the same thing. 

 

1 hour ago, Slaviar said:

Weapons with 30k dps and poor ammo efficiency... yup, they are definitely overpowered

Before I say anything, really look at that number. 30,000 damage per second. Per. Second. How much health does the average bombard have at level 80? Not only that, it was more like 50k last i checked. Also, ammo inefficiency? Really? The Soma Prime has the most reserve ammo in the game I think, and the Boltor Prime is really average in ammo efficiency. Ammo pizzas render this irrelevant as well. Again, just because something is more OP doesn't make something else not OP at all. Less OP is still OP. 

[Slaviar]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

The Dex Sybaris has an effectively 7 round mag, and bows take time to draw, aim and fire. Time that can be spent on other weapons pew pewing away to their heart's content. They are not the same thing. 

Pew pewing without paying attention will ony make you lose ammo. 

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Before I say anything, really look at that number. 30,000 damage per second. Per. Second. How much health does the average bombard have at level 80? Not only that, it was more like 50k last i checked. Also, ammo inefficiency? Really? The Soma Prime has the most reserve ammo in the game I think, and the Boltor Prime is really average in ammo efficiency. Ammo pizzas render this irrelevant as well. Again, just because something is more OP doesn't make something else not OP at all. Less OP is still OP. 

And I can do the same with one shot from Vay Hek. Or twice that much with one shot from Tigris. Or one headshot from properly modded sniper rifle. By the time mobs become real tough Soma's ammo reserve won't matter. Or simply at 3rd sortie with Eximus stronghold or augmented armor.

Also, unless my calculations are wrong lvl 80 Bombard has over 10x that much EHP (>28k health and >5k armor). Now you'll go with "but CP" but auras and their usefulness is different subject.

Feel free to correct me if my calculations are wrong. Trust me, I DO want them to be wrong...