Overpowered players

[IRVoidGuru]

7 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

I'm trying so hard to stay out of this thread...

 

 

That's not how math works. Going from 100 to 25 is a 75% reduction in energy needs, and it costs 175 eff to achieve this.

you see, percentage reduction from a number (which we will call old) to another number (which he will call new) is:  (old - new)/old

so 100-25 = 75 and 75/100 = 0.75 which is 75%.

Thank you ! so much. seriously  

[IRVoidGuru]

5 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

In which it devolves into an argument over semantics where someone flips an idea around to show that you're getting 4x as much bang for your buck by using the number 400% but then people immediately start to squabble with him by saying, "no it's a 75% reduction, not 400% gain," as though it even matters when everyone knew exactly what they meant.

You guys are like kids who are arguing over whether to use an orange crayon or a pumpkin colored crayon.

the problem with this argument is only 1 is right , the kid who said it was orange was correct. just like saying its 75 percent reduction is . wait for it , correct ! if its stated that way, then it was done so for a reason 

[Dreddeth]

Damage 3.0 is a dot on the approaching horizon, so my guess is that by this time next year this thread will be entirely pointless. Particularly since it's largely devolved into bickering.

Damage 3.0 (allegedly) encompasses:

• Removal of flat damage mods such as Serration, Hornet Strike, Point Blank, and Pressure Point from the game, to be replaced with an increase in damage as the weapon levels up.
• Reworking of multishot to consume ammo, thus killing its viability on pretty much everything.
• Rebalancing the broken enemy hyper-scaling that made these mods mandatory in the first place
• And most likely a rework of various frames to better fit into the rebalanced scaling. For example, I'm pretty sure the Mag and Volt reworks were done with Damage 3.0 in mind so that they didn't have to go back and re-tweak them so soon, but of course that's just a hunch.

And probably a few more bells and whistles on top of that.

[IRVoidGuru]

14 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Damage 3.0 is a dot on the approaching horizon, so my guess is that by this time next year this thread will be entirely pointless. Particularly since it's largely devolved into bickering.

Damage 3.0 (allegedly) encompasses:

• Removal of flat damage mods such as Serration, Hornet Strike, Point Blank, and Pressure Point from the game, to be replaced with an increase in damage as the weapon levels up.
• Reworking of multishot to consume ammo, thus killing its viability on pretty much everything.
• Rebalancing the broken enemy hyper-scaling that made these mods mandatory in the first place
• And most likely a rework of various frames to better fit into the rebalanced scaling. For example, I'm pretty sure the Mag and Volt reworks were done with Damage 3.0 in mind so that they didn't have to go back and re-tweak them so soon, but of course that's just a hunch.

And probably a few more bells and whistles on top of that.

unless u missed , devs said prime pressure point threw that out the window. it could be literally a WHOLE YEAR before this happens. we cant wait for that long and expect us to not give feedback on the state things are in now 

Edited June 23, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[Monchopin]

am i being baited

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

I haven't insulted any one the ones saying I am wrong have

I try to stay nice because you don't know how old some of these people posting are

Any way I don't plan on insults to prove a point

Edited June 23, 2016 by (XB1)Itz chibi

[Dreddeth]

Just now, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

unless u missed , devs said prime pressure point through that out the window. it could be literally a WHOLE YEAR before this happens. we cant wait for that long and expect us to not give feedback on the state things are in now 

Historically, the removal of mods just means compensatory Legendary Cores and a bunch of salt about having to re-forma, so I don't see how anything was thrown out of any window unless we're talking about the time-frame here, which is beside the point. My point is that with something so big on the horizon, pushing for change now would likely just necessitate further delays as even the relatively small changes could potentially domino into large impacts on the upcoming rework of the entire damage system.

Furthermore, making reactionary band-aid changes and piecemeal alterations definitely has the potential to over-complicate or otherwise bork the system should the fragments interact in unforeseen ways, and will in all likelihood take longer to reach an appreciable state of balance, especially with no real established standard.

Finally, there's nothing said here that hasn't been said before, so I fail to see how this adds to the discussion on damage. If anything, this entire thread is redundant.

I recognize your decision to try and invalidate my point by whining about the time-table, but as it's a stupid-@$$ decision, I've elected to ignore it apart from better defining said point.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Monchopin said:

am i being baited

hook, line, & sinker

[Xzorn]

On 6/15/2016 at 3:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

That problem is that player weapons and powers are way overpowered.

• Mods like seration need to go. They add nothing to the game other than being resource sinks.
• Multishot mods also need to use extra ammo. There is no reason not to equip them now and they basically cheat the ingame ammo system.
• Elemental damage mods should convert existing damage to their element. Something like converting 40% of stock damage to their element while adding 20% bonus (max rank). This would also have the side effect of making the physical damage type mods viable.
• Add skill indexed mods. These mods would replace mods like serration. They would work by awarding advanced use of game mechanics and force players to actually improve their skills instead of just bullet hosing enemies until they die.
• Rework crits. What are crits? Why would there be a % chance of doing more damage? Aren't crits supposed to be extra damage from hitting enemy vitals? Crits would be fine in MMO's with no first person aim, but warframe has that as well as body part damage multipliers. In the end crits serve no purpose other than another flat layer of damage and rewarding headshots.

 

• Nerf efficiency mods. Reducing the cost of skills to 1/4 is the biggest reason why skills are so spammable. What's worse is that this comes with little to no drawbacks which can be countered by duration mods. Efficiency mods are currently the norm since they basically remove the limit on casting. I suggest giving streamline and fleeting expertise more drawbacks and let them do exactly as their names imply. Force the player to decide between a weaker (streamlined) spammable build or more powerful builds.
• Nerf energy vampire. Energy vampire was OP before but with the recent rework of awarding the remaining energy on kill it has become broken. EV should be reverted back to it's original form.
• Rework Trinity. Not only does trinity outperform any other support frame in healing and damage resistance, she can also serve as an infinite energy generator at the same time. And as if that wasn't enough she can also face tank pretty much anything.
• Limit the restores. Limit restores on each revive so the players can't just spam them or give them a cooldown.

 

 

Some of your suggestions are already purposed changes for Damage 3.0.

• It's not as much that weapons are OP but that damage dealt to players is OP. It's created a setup in this game to where if a frame does not have a damage buff or a good CC; it's garbage, despite how fun it might be to play, this is reinforced by Devs refusing to scale ability damage.
• Enemies are not damage sponges in a well designed group till well past the lvl 300 mark. Damage is only a problem on the Star Map and IMO that's been boring for 3 years due to lame alerts and even lamer rewards. The only good mission right now is Heircon and that's about to get dumped on by the Void changes.
• Serration = Already purposed by Devs.
• Multishot = Already purposed by Devs. On a side note doing this without going back and individually tweaking every gun's damage, mag size, status chance, ammo max and reload is going to screw up more than it fixes.
• Elemental Conversion wouldn't be a bad consideration for Damage 3.0 but this would also requires more tweaking of Gun damage, elemental status effects, proc rates and again is likely more work than will be done resulting in a worse off system. It's a cool idea, I'd mostly prefer they fix balance between physical damage types and status effects.
• Crits are a standard in any RPG based game, despite this being a shooter interface everything else about it is an RPG. When done correctly crits allow for character customization (On crit procs and effects). That being said they screwed up with the math long ago and crits do x4 to weak points for no reason. The result is Sancti Tigris and Quanta Vandal being the only non-crit weapons viable at top Tier, If they'd fixed the headcrit multiplier this wouldn't be an issue.

 

• Efficiency is already on it's way out the door. Look at the recent reworks and new frames. Just about all of them have abilities tied to Duration when they shouldn't This is to prevent the use of Fleeting Expertise. Streamline already has a draw back, it takes up a mod slot. To make Streamline less appealing all they need to do is make you want to slot other mods. A great way to do this is by taking some of these stupid caps off abilities like Volt's new Discharge, which is designed in a way it might as well not function off mods at all.
• Trinity doesn't need nerfs right now, honestly she hasn't been a consideration for my Clan since Zenurik - Energy Overflow. You don't even need her anymore. The meta is %damage buff + %damage buff + %damage buff + CC. Pref with some of those %damage frames having backup CC. No room for Trinity. If you want something nerfed, Energy Overflow is a great start.

 

I've always liked the concept of mods like +50% headshot damage ect, the Acolyte mods were close but I personally don't need to zoom to hit weak points and it just slows my kill rate. A lot of this might get changed with Damage 3.0 which I fully expect to be a global weapon damage nerf. Of course they could have addressed player damage a long time ago by changing the way CPx4 stacks.

This game was already a lot like you purpose 3 years ago with Damage 1.0, It was changed to be easier for a wider audience.

Speculated Projected Road map: DE revamps the Void Loot progressing in a way that further removes a player's interest in long term endless missions. Once players are more accustomed to "not bothering" past a 120m or 40 waves mission; Damage 3.0 rolls out diminishing the level at which players can perform. Result: Years free from crying about damage scaling and the right to finally nerf CC into the ground.         -It's not really a bad thing, but I'd bet plat on this.

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

what are you talking about?Efficiency is broadly speaking, how efficient you are at casting skills. removing a cost = to the percentage over 100 , aka removing 3/4 of the cost at max , you cant simply change the math to make it seem like efficiency is over powered in any way. Your Math is just Wrong its not 300 percent your getting its only 175 . it cant get any easier then to simply read 

So, how much would abilities cost at 200% efficiency? 0?

45 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

I'm trying so hard to stay out of this thread...

That's not how math works. Going from 100 to 25 is a 75% reduction in energy needs, and it costs 175 eff to achieve this.

you see, percentage reduction from a number (which we will call old) to another number (which we will call new) is:  (old - new)/old

so 100-25 = 75 and 75/100 = 0.75 which is 75%.

Lol so, If car A used 1L of fuel for 10km and car B used 0,5L for 10km. Does that make car B 50% more fuel efficient? I'm pretty sure the number you're looking for here is 100%.

[(PSN)HyperInfestation]

The never ending argument between the Over Powered and the Under Skilled. 

 

[IceColdHawk]

14 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Lol so, If car A used 1L of fuel for 10km and car B used 0,5L for 10km. Does that make car B 50% more fuel efficient?

Actually yes.

[IRVoidGuru]

50 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Historically, the removal of mods just means compensatory Legendary Cores and a bunch of salt about having to re-forma, so I don't see how anything was thrown out of any window unless we're talking about the time-frame here, which is beside the point. My point is that with something so big on the horizon, pushing for change now would likely just necessitate further delays as even the relatively small changes could potentially domino into large impacts on the upcoming rework of the entire damage system.

Furthermore, making reactionary band-aid changes and piecemeal alterations definitely has the potential to over-complicate or otherwise bork the system should the fragments interact in unforeseen ways, and will in all likelihood take longer to reach an appreciable state of balance, especially with no real established standard.

Finally, there's nothing said here that hasn't been said before, so I fail to see how this adds to the discussion on damage. If anything, this entire thread is redundant.

I recognize your decision to try and invalidate my point by whining about the time-table, but as it's a stupid-@$$ decision, I've elected to ignore it apart from better defining said point.

as what you said was direct it was Equally as redundant. considering All of the work done on the new damage system is now moot ( as the devs said ) im not incorrect in saying that players have the Right to Post feedback in the forums while we wait Even longer for a new damage system  "on the horizon" was a wrong choice of words as it implys its finished and coming when in reality its been screwed over and Requires More time just to have progress, let alone a finished system 

Edited June 23, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

5 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Actually yes.

And how many kilometers would car B make compared to car A? 50% more?

[IRVoidGuru]

28 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

So, how much would abilities cost at 200% efficiency? 0?

Lol so, If car A used 1L of fuel for 10km and car B used 0,5L for 10km. Does that make car B 50% more fuel efficient? I'm pretty sure the number you're looking for here is 100%.

Yes Exactly , 200 percent efficentcy means that you are REMOVING 100 percent cost. such is cost/efficientcy. as for your other example im unable to begin to explain how that has no way of being applied here . but for the record YES ITS 50% more efficient ! im pretty sure the wrong number here is 100 %

Edited June 23, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[IRVoidGuru]

16 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

And how many kilometers would car B make compared to car A? 50% more?

that has nothing to do with Efficientcy

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

Yes Exactly , 200 percent efficentcy means that you are REMOVING 100 percent cost. such is cost/efficiency. as for your other example im unable to begin to explain how that has no way of being applied here . but for the record YES ITS 50% more efficient ! i'm pretty sure the wrong number here is 100 %

Oh for the love of...are you seriously implying that 175% efficiency compared to 100% efficiency means 1,75 more casts? Because that's what this is about.

Installing streamline reduces the cost for 30% percent therefore you get 1/0,7= 1,43 the use for each energy point. Additionally, applying fleeting expertise up to a cost reduction cap of 75% results in 1/0,25=4 effective energy points for each energy used.

Or more simply at cap reduction you get 4 times the casts for the same cost.

[IceColdHawk]

12 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

And how many kilometers would car B make compared to car A? 50% more?

No, it can drive 100% more kilometers, BUT it is 50% more efficient in keeping the fuel!

When the first thing only needs HALF as much as the other, it of course can last DOUBLE as long. It might sound weird to you but mathematically speaking, car B is 50% MORE efficient. And with 50% more, you can last double as long because 50% * 2 = 100%

To answer another question:

37 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

So, how much would abilities cost at 200% efficiency? 0?

Yes. And that's why we got a cap of 175% efficiency.

Anyway, is this a topic about maths or about...something warframe related?

[Azrael]

34 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Lol so, If car A used 1L of fuel for 10km and car B used 0,5L for 10km. Does that make car B 50% more fuel efficient? I'm pretty sure the number you're looking for here is 100%

At this point we're just playing stupid games with definitions. There are different ways to define efficiency, but the most common one uses relative changes. We regard a change in efficiency in relative terms, because absolute ones are misleading. For example, which is a bigger increase in efficiency: going from needing 100L to 99L, or going from 1L to 0.5L? Even though going from 100 to 99 is a change of 1L, most people would say that going from 1 to 0.5 is a bigger change. This is because we define efficiency in relative terms.

So going from 100 to 25 is a relative change of 75%. Put another way, something is X% more efficient if it takes X% less stuff. Going from 1L to 0.5L is a decrease of 50%, because it takes 50% less fuel to get there.

So no, the arsenal is not wrong. It correctly displays efficiency in relative terms. And btw, 200% efficiency would mean that an ability was free, which is why it is capped at 175.

[IRVoidGuru]

7 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Oh for the love of...are you seriously implying that 175% efficiency compared to 100% efficiency means 1,75 more casts? Because that's what this is about.

Installing streamline reduces the cost for 30% percent therefore you get 1/0,7= 1,43 the use for each energy point. Additionally, applying fleeting expertise up to a cost reduction cap of 75% results in 1/0,25=4 effective energy points for each energy used.

Or more simply at cap reduction you get 4 times the casts for the same cost.

you have an understanding of the Effect that efficentcy has , but not what efficientcy means ( it seems). but moving on from that it is a long standing stat that more players in this game enjoy then would like to see go away, powers are NOT supposed to be used spairingly imo. your not just talking about harming efficientcy though but on top of that every form of restoring energy otherwise. Warframe isnt a game based on limiting players repeatedly on possability of capabilitys, spamming sucks and will always exist as long as players can. on the other hand for how large this game is im sure you can find players to play with that dont act like that. without access to powers ( or with restricted access to them )  warframe would be completly not fun to me. and im sure a larger number of players would agree

[IRVoidGuru]

18 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

At this point we're just playing stupid games with definitions. There are different ways to define efficiency, but the most common one uses relative changes. We regard a change in efficiency in relative terms, because absolute ones are misleading. For example, which is a bigger increase in efficiency: going from needing 100L to 99L, or going from 1L to 0.5L? Even though going from 100 to 99 is a change of 1L, most people would say that going from 1 to 0.5 is a bigger change. This is because we define efficiency in relative terms.

So going from 100 to 25 is a relative change of 75%. Put another way, something is X% more efficient if it takes X% less stuff. Going from 1L to 0.5L is a decrease of 50%, because it takes 50% less fuel to get there.

So no, the arsenal is not wrong. It correctly displays efficiency in relative terms. And btw, 200% efficiency would mean that an ability was free, which is why it is capped at 175.

i agree , he is mistaking what Efficientcy is, comparing it to how Efficient it is. witch again your right its a matter of definition 

Edited June 23, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[-dicht.nomoreraiding-]

Weapons are overpowered? Sure, now why dont you take that overpowered weapons of yours into 2 hours of t4 survival and see how enemies melt.

Overpowered players? Maybe we should feel overpowered, after sinking 2000+ hours into a game.

Warframe is a PVE game focusing on mission objectives - not a shooting simulator with your suggested "skill mods".

 

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

I Took a nap ^^

 

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

you have an understanding of the Effect that efficiency has , but not what efficiency means ( it seems). but moving on from that it is a long standing stat that more players in this game enjoy then would like to see go away, powers are NOT supposed to be used sparingly imo. your not just talking about harming efficiency though but on top of that every form of restoring energy otherwise. Warframe isn't a game based on limiting players repeatedly on possibility of capability, spamming sucks and will always exist as long as players can. on the other hand for how large this game is im sure you can find players to play with that dont act like that. without access to powers ( or with restricted access to them )  warframe would be completely not fun to me. and im sure a larger number of players would agree

I don't know how long you've been playing, but for the past 2+ years that I've been playing we went from having limited energy and ran around collecting energy orbs and huddling around trinity waiting for EV to run it's course to fleeting expertise and with energy siphon stacking you could cast an ult every 11s. But that still wasn't enough, so they gave us restores which made ES obsolete and finally we have syndicate restores and EV restoring remaining energy on kill.

Anyway, my point with scaling is that unlike other Power attributes that scale linearly efficiency scales non-linearly. Applying Intensify increases power strength by 30% for a total of 130%, but applying Streamline reduces the cost by 30% effectively resulting in 143% the number of casts. This difference in scaling only increases as you approach the cap and ends at 4x number of casts. This makes modding for efficiency much more effective than any other attribute which is not balanced and allows for things like casting an ultimate for a price of a single energy orb.

There is a reason energy economy exists in the game. It's the same reason mana or other equivalents exist in other RPG games. It's to limit the player in use of magic (well, void magic) and forces them to use it more wisely. Energy still works as intended for newbies, but once they get their hand on and max efficiency mods their power basically multiplies since they can now cast their room clearing and disabling abilities for little to no cost. End result is them blazing through the content and turning warframe from tense engaging ninja shooter into a farming simulator.

14 minutes ago, nomoreraining said:

Weapons are overpowered? Sure, now why dont you take that overpowered weapons of yours into 2 hours of t4 survival and see how enemies melt.

Overpowered players? Maybe we should feel overpowered, after sinking 2000+ hours into a game.

Warframe is a PVE game focusing on mission objectives - not a shooting simulator with your suggested "skill mods".

Do you feel overpowered at 2+ hours T4 survival? No?

Why would you ever want to go 2 hours in T4 survival anyway?

Oh my, is it for the challenge? How do you expect to be challenged if you're overpowered? Challenge is by definition a trail that tests your skills. Being overpowered means that you can easily overcome the obstacle and make it look easy. You can't be challenged if you're OP.

That's why you stay in the void for so long. You test your limits and try to push your builds as far as you can and eventually you're forced to evac or die. That's the opposite of being OP.

[IceColdHawk]

8 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

That's why you stay in the void for so long. You test your limits and try to push your builds as far as you can and eventually you're forced to evac or die

And this is the only thing keeping us vets in the game aside from farming for new stuff. Removing it by nerfing everything we use to be able to enjoy this (especially energy economy), is a free ticket to travel to other games. But things like prism nerf were okay. Now that was something that could be called "op" since it made all other CC's redundant, just like shield polarize did to all other dmg abilities. And limiting energy restores? Why? We don't get them for free, we build them. And if you're new, you don't have the resources to keep them up constantly. Unless you've spent like 2k+ hours into this game and got tons of resources, but then you DESERVED IT. Ofc you're gonna be OP once you mastered the game and played it through!

Edited June 23, 2016 by IceColdHawk