Overpowered players

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

1 minute ago, tizodd said:

I don't think being anti-ability-spam is the way to go.  Otherwise Warframe becomes your average run-of-mill third person shooter.  We need abilities for diversity.  Being able to spam abilities because you modded correctly should be an option.

I do however, feel that some abilities (bladestorm, maim, etc) and weapons (tonkor, simulor, etc) should be toned down a bit, along with cheesing enemies (looking at you nullifier, combus, and lock-on bombard missiles).

EV is fine because a full EV build sacrifices a lot of Trinity's durability.  A full EV build can't rely on Blessing's damage reduction or Link's damage reduction.  They just have to hope overshields does the job, which in most cases against higher level enemies...it doesn't.  It's a fair trade off.

I like having the option of going ability heavy for damage or going more for weapon damage.  Options give the game replay-ability.

I did say that spamming would still be possible, but with a lot of downsides. Imagine building a house with only 1/4 of the money. It might be possible, but it would definitely show in the quality and size.

You should also be more honest with yourself. You don't really need an EV build most of the time. A regular "balanced" bless build works just fine since you get all your energy if you kill the target. Not to mention how bless quadruples your Vampire leech overshields EHP.

[Soketsu]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I did say that spamming would still be possible, but with a lot of downsides. Imagine building a house with only 1/4 of the money. It might be possible, but it would definitely show in the quality and size.

You should also be more honest with yourself. You don't really need an EV build most of the time. A regular "balanced" bless build works just fine since you get all your energy if you kill the target. Not to mention how bless quadruples your Vampire leech overshields EHP.

still waiting the answer to ALL the thing you forgot to mention and the point you forgot to work on

[SolidAcid]

7 hours ago, Myscho said:

These changes will be good in point where enemies are reworked, not just black holes eating bullets like now

what lvl enemies are you talking about?

[ryu-hayabusa1]

4 hours ago, ShadowFox14 said:

 

- There IS headshot multiplier.
- Swap out elemental mods for different enemy types? Use different weapons?
- Nullifier, Parasitic Eximus.

You are mentioning a bunch of mechanics that if they were to be removed from the game, then this wouldn't be Warframe, but a regular FPS or MMORPG. Play those instead.
You want gunplay, and less usage of skills. Then why do we even have frames?

+1 

i'll say it again, some ppl won't rest until warframe becomes a generic FPS.

[corrosivePaladin]

While all this would be nice, purely because it would greatly balance the game and make it easier for the devs to balance lategame.

In one of the dev streams, I forget the exact number, they actually answered a question. Their answer related to this exact topic. Their biggest regret was making mods far too powerful, for example a +120% COMMON damage mod for all melees. But because it's been like this for so long, nerfing it all. Even if it was all level, just making smaller numbers and in no way effecting your actual killing power, players would rebel. And leave.

 

I personally do agree with weakening mods as it would allow a more proper balance. Even making some poor augs more effective. But the community backlash would be too great to do it, and we all know it.

 

[Kainosh]

Best thing is that its all gonna happen (spoilers)

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

8 hours ago, xXduncanXx said:

no, just no, we already got a lot of nerfs lately we don't want  more 

 

 

You seem to have confused re-works and balancing with nerfs

[ChaellExE]

I think the real problem here is that there is real no end content for high enough players except for those bulletsponges, so they spam the hell of what seems to be even a remotely challenging / rewarding resulting in exploit of the game system. At the same time I can see how they become so powerfull, if you would spend an huge amount of time in a linear system you would also reach the end of the line within time. Overpowered players are just the result of players catching up with the game, because everything is within the games rules and or system. 
 

Spoiler

As mentioned early most of  these "overpowered players" are mostly nothing more than veteran players, whom still love the game and spend hours on it. They have gone through most of the content already, speedy if some may say, but who is the judge in how many fast someone should go through a given content. While DE is catering new players and desperaly if I may say, trying to ballance the game with endless grinding capped systems and bulletsponges, even nullifiers and nerfs. Every game has 3 class of players: the newbies, casual players and veterans.  They seem to be hitting their the middle class of their players bases the most. The veterans are already good enough that they are not even bothered as people mentioned to be able to one hit those nullifiers as they are just a musquito, for the casual players it seems to be an obstacle and the newbies aren't even there to being with. 

With this however comes a problem that DE won't be able to fix anytime soon.

The story of the game is still in development, not even 30% of it is scrapped and there are still huge misteries left to uncover. But here is also where the problems comes in. 
At one side you have DE. They release the game in what I like to refer to as episodes, with seasonal events and refreshing of what's already there to be on one line with their future releases. This however takes alot of time, not to mention the bugs and whatever that comes with it. Meanwhile the player is par on par with their development in game, meaning that as soon as DE releases their content, they are ready for it. Within a few weeks, let's say less then three, most of the playerbase has catched up, the vets earliers than the casuals. While De still has to do the coverup, fixing bugs, refreshing content and whatever, players are already ready for new content. The vets has meanwhile almost nothing to do towards end game content and the casuals are trying to catchup with the vets. (1/5 vets, 2/5 casual, 2/5 newbs) Eventually on the next big release you have 2/5 of the players already on the level of the vets: "overpowered".  The other 2/5 are the casuals ready at the level required for new content and the 1/5 that is exited to finally be get ready to tackle the new content are the newbies. It's a killing cycle and eventually everybody catches up. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by ChaellExE

[Dark5eiD]

I am getting completely tired of all these damn nerf threads... seriously people, next time you want to make a nerf thread. punch yourself ...hard

 

This is a game were 4 take on thousands, you have to be OP, how else would this be possible ? no amount of skill would be able to compete. give your head a shake.

 

there are some cases where nerfs are needed, but this is not one of them.

[Tizodd]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

...You should also be more honest with yourself. You don't really need an EV build most of the time. A regular "balanced" bless build works just fine since you get all your energy if you kill the target. Not to mention how bless quadruples your Vampire leech overshields EHP.

Not sure what you mean when you say I should be more honest with myself.  Maybe you're confusing me with another poster?

If the statement was intended for me however; I still don't know where you're coming from with it.  I never said I or anyone else "needs" EV.  I said a full EV build is fine as-is because it has to make other sacrifices in order to be a full EV build.  If a person wants more durability they'll go with a more balanced build that includes duration.  It seems like an okay trade-off to me.  Simply put: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

Warframe needs a reworked foundation and a hard-cap on warframes, weapons, and enemies. 

Spamming, cheesing, and brain dead engagement isn't salvation but the destruction of the game if not addressed.

People have been used to being omnipotent for too long it's becoming an addiction - and with any form of balance implementation or "nerf" you all go into withdrawal symptoms and say no without opening your perspective on the issue at hand.

Games should be about improving oneself with skills and knowledge - showing that if you have the know-how and the determination to get passed difficult obstacles, you as a player and person will shine in the face of adversity.

The game should never be about who has the best items, spent the most money, has maxed every "mod," or who grinded 16 hours a day. Never ever should.

Skill is Skill, experience is experience - whoever has the most of both should be the elites of a game playing "T4 missions" and "sorties" or whatver the endgame may be - and help others when in need or if they choose to. This also creates more teacher and disciple scenarios. Bigger bonds, and respect for those who reached the top with hard work.

Being the best shouldn't be easy - in fact it should be very difficult. But it should never be as tiring/tedious/aggravating as the current game entails which is mind numbing grinding for the sake of mastery, one hit quit replay-ability, and RNGesus mentality (which acquiring things should be leaning more towards ones skill). Which all these would be affected by what the OP stated - curing this disease of cheese and creating a game based on skill and experience.

 

TL;DR - I believe that the moment this game becomes a game revolved around skill and experience will unlock more choices in playstyles, freedom of choice, and most of all.. fun. Which is what the OP and many others like him beautifully explain.

Just my 2 credits.

Edited June 15, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed inflammatory remark.

[Tizodd]

Just now, (PS4)lNoctus said:

Many people just read the first sentence and think nerf, and then reply with a no. That is why I said such a thing. 

As for an opinion of the OP, it's a truthful opinion - in which case can be agreed upon if many were to have a constructive thought of what OP stated.

It's a "truthful opinion" to you because you agree with it.

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

Just now, tizodd said:

It's a "truthful opinion" to you because you agree with it.

If an apple is rotten and people say it isn't - would it be a fact or an opinion if one were to state that it's rotten and needs to be discarded?

If warframes enemy scaling/level system were rotten - yet people still want it to be the same, would I or OP be incorrect? well of course even if our solution is obviously opinion - the goal of a beta and as a game is to improve it and remove as many flaws and obsolete mechanics to increase happiness of the player base as a whole. So in terms of opinion - our opinions are derived to improve - while other who think the current system is perfect will understand why it is not in my first post and most of OPs post. As we stated the issue with the game, which are not opinion, but are facts.

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

22 minutes ago, tizodd said:

Not sure what you mean when you say I should be more honest with myself.  Maybe you're confusing me with another poster?

If the statement was intended for me however; I still don't know where you're coming from with it.  I never said I or anyone else "needs" EV.  I said a full EV build is fine as-is because it has to make other sacrifices in order to be a full EV build.  If a person wants more durability they'll go with a more balanced build that includes duration.  It seems like an okay trade-off to me.  Simply put: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I'm saying that Trinity is broken not only because it completely brakes the energy system, but also because you don't have to specialize as an EV to be 70% as effective. You can use a Bless build to Generate energy just fine as long as your team kills your targets quickly since the remaining energy is released upon death. So you can provide: constant damage resistance, heal and supply energy.

[Liminal]

I agree with the idea behind the thread. I simply can't deny player power is insane for most of the game (and oh boy do I hate mandatory mods that make guns 50x more powerful). But if they ever want to bring those things down, they need to beat the crap out of the enemies as well: destroy that awful scaling, get rid of "everyone's a priority target", auras that go through walls, spawning 5 ancients at the same time, a million nullifiers, etc.

[Soketsu]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)lNoctus said:

If an apple is rotten and people say it isn't - would it be a fact or an opinion if one were to state that it's rotten and needs to be discarded?

If warframes enemy scaling/level system were rotten - yet people still want it to be the same, would I or OP be incorrect? well of course even if our solution is obviously opinion - the goal of a beta and as a game is to improve it and remove as many flaws and obsolete mechanics to increase happiness of the player base as a whole. So in terms of opinion - our opinions are derived to improve - while other who think the current system is perfect will understand why it is not in my first post and most of OPs post. As we stated the issue with the game, which are not opinion, but are facts.

ok let's say we are in the wrong to play with op thing and you are not happy about that

you want to change everything for everyone even if you can simply do not use op things it's already weird

but after if you succeed to make warframe balanced, you have to think before the fight... be skillful in the fight... against AI, good if i wanted a real challenge in shooter why I still play to warframe with all other shoter gain available, since the best challenge is to fight another human mind, I think i will go on tf2, overwatch, cs etc....

but what if I just want a game where i do not have too much to think, after a day of work, warframe, "how no now it's a not anymore a relax shooter game where i can relax for 30 min, ok no going to choose mod on skyrim/fallout or continue a 4x, or dynastie warrior, an medieval game where you are a semi god" i think some player will go this kind of idea and not play anymore warframe

one more time; op enemies vs op players or balanced enemies vs balanced player, what to change the whole game for that ?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Soketsu

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

1 hour ago, Soketsu said:

one more time; op enemies vs op players or balanced enemies vs balanced player, what to change the whole game for that ?

If both are OP then they are "balanced". The issue here is that for 90% of the game content enemy difficulty is completely trivial. Even T3/4 survivals take a while to become challenging. Then there is a sweet spot of "challenge" where enemies can take a few hits but dish out good damage in return. And after that short sweet spot enemies become murderous bullet sponges that can take you out in a few or even a single hit.

Also, keep in mind that you can only find that short sweet spot in endless missions that were never supposed to be balanced or in sorties, raids,...

If you don't like to be invested when you play and want to feel like a god, why not just go on easier maps? 

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

13 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

ok let's say we are in the wrong to play with op thing and you are not happy about that

you want to change everything for everyone even if you can simply do not use op things it's already weird

but after if you succeed to make warframe balanced, you have to think before the fight... be skillful in the fight... against AI, good if i wanted a real challenge in shooter why I still play to warframe with all other shoter gain available, since the best challenge is to fight another human mind, I think i will go on tf2, overwatch, cs etc....

but what if I just want a game where i do not have too much to think, after a day of work, warframe, "how no now it's a not anymore a relax shooter game where i can relax for 30 min, ok no going to choose mod on skyrim/fallout or continue a 4x, or dynastie warrior, an medieval game where you are a semi god" i think some player will go this kind of idea and not play anymore warframe

one more time; op enemies vs op players or balanced enemies vs balanced player, what to change the whole game for that ?

Warframe shouldn't be a scapegoat for players who want to cheese enemies without a struggle - there are many other games where you can be a god in single player or relax like in a bird simulator where you fly around with no obstacles (or even do other activities other than gaming if you just want to relax or kick back).

Since warframe is heavily co-op, god mode shouldn't be a thing for warframe.

If and when warframe is balanced (and it will) you can still indiscriminately slaughter level 1 enemies for your amusement, and when you feel the need to be serious - play harder enemies.

[Soketsu]

44 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

If both are OP then they are "balanced". The issue here is that for 90% of the game content enemy difficulty is completely trivial. Even T3/4 survivals take a while to become challenging. Then there is a sweet spot of "challenge" where enemies can take a few hits but dish out good damage in return. And after that short sweet spot enemies become murderous bullet sponges that can take you out in a few or even a single hit.

Also, keep in mind that you can only find that short sweet spot in endless missions that were never supposed to be balanced or in sorties, raids,...

If you don't like to be invested when you play and want to feel like a god, why not just go on easier maps?

why don't remove yourself 90% of your own power and let us be ?

Don't even bother to looking for "sweet" spot, it's annoy me but unlike some people i don't care if you nerf it or make it op, people play like they want, if they want to be static while drinking a mojito it's not my concern, if some wanted to play valkyr in order to be invincible it's their trip, not mine

why i don't go on pvp you mean, it's only on pvp you can boost  your ego, already said it, beside i'm already a semi god on t3/t4 content like every veteran of this game

for someone who looking for challenge why don't just go on pvp games, or just warframe pvp ? also your suggestion lack of preparation, bringing right more problem than it solve, since it seem you still cannot answer to the question  I ask you earlier, I assume that

39 minutes ago, (PS4)lNoctus said:

Warframe shouldn't be a scapegoat for players who want to cheese enemies without a struggle - there are many other games where you can be a god in single player or relax like in a bird simulator where you fly around with no obstacles (or even do other activities other than gaming if you just want to relax or kick back).

Since warframe is heavily co-op, god mode shouldn't be a thing for warframe.

If and when warframe is balanced (and it will) you can still indiscriminately slaughter level 1 enemies for your amusement, and when you feel the need to be serious - play harder enemies.

why it shouldn't be ?

"heavily" co op game when we are 4 ? (8 in raid) , I wonder which word use for GW2 TF2 who brings (5 up to 100+ depend of the map) (6 up to 12 players) where you can do at least 90% of the game without really use co op synergy (by that i mean you can still play as you in solo mod you got just other buddy who help you to do the job faster but you don't really to say a single word in order to reach victory beside "hi" "thks" "gj"

beside the game was already like that when i begin it, so why changing that now ?

and what is the problem with player who kill AI in 1 sec vs AI who OS player in 1sec, you know that we will have mobs who can't be lock down by our powers and may be not being OS by our weapons so I still don't get your point of all of this

another question, if you want that warframe become balanced but every single other player who don't like should leave the game in order to achieve that since their are not happy, will you do it ?

PS: i don't care anymore if you do not answer to everything, you can pm if you want to continue to trying to convince me, but for now a rework from bunny and his only thruth=disagree

will change if he succeed...

[Tizodd]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)lNoctus said:

If an apple is rotten and people say it isn't - would it be a fact or an opinion if one were to state that it's rotten and needs to be discarded?

If warframes enemy scaling/level system were rotten - yet people still want it to be the same, would I or OP be incorrect? well of course even if our solution is obviously opinion - the goal of a beta and as a game is to improve it and remove as many flaws and obsolete mechanics to increase happiness of the player base as a whole. So in terms of opinion - our opinions are derived to improve - while other who think the current system is perfect will understand why it is not in my first post and most of OPs post. As we stated the issue with the game, which are not opinion, but are facts.

According to Merriam-Webster, some definitions of rotten are:

: having rotted or decayed and no longer able to be used, eaten, etc.
: very bad or unpleasant
: not well or health

So whether or not an apple is rotten can be considered a fact.  A person who who says a rotten apple isn't rotten most likely doesn't know what rotten means.

In Warframe however; whether something is broken or needs to be nerfed is totally subjective.  You may like things one way, I may like things another way, the devs might envision things yet another way.  It COULD be argued that the dev's opinion would be most correct because they created the game.  But how you and I feel about it are really just our opinions.

I won't say my opinion is right, just as I won't say your opinion is wrong.  They're our opinions.  Not facts.

49 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I'm saying that Trinity is broken not only because it completely brakes the energy system, but also because you don't have to specialize as an EV to be 70% as effective. You can use a Bless build to Generate energy just fine as long as your team kills your targets quickly since the remaining energy is released upon death. So you can provide: constant damage resistance, heal and supply energy.

So by your reasoning would I be correct to assume that you also feel Energy Siphon is broken?  How about Energy Restores...surely those are broken too?  And I won't even mention Zenurik in this discussion...oops.

Trinity is not broken.  Modding and playing as an EV Trinity has its pros and its cons.  It's not some almighty God-among-frames.  It's true that you can use Energy Vampire without modding specifically for it.  But if someone wants to mod for Energy Vampire, why is that wrong?  It's just another way to play the frame and like I stated earlier, by modding for and playing as an EV Trinity, you're limiting your other options such as damage resistance from Blessing and Link.  In my opinion that's a fair trade-off.

Look...I understand where you're coming from with some of your arguments and I do agree with some points in your OP however; you shouldn't try to make it seem like your opinions are facts and everyone else's opinions are just non-sense.

[Urlan]

6 hours ago, LittleRiot.Teemo said:

- add a bit - Banshee too my man :) She's the reason why people need to learn , to be careful at stuff , like Oberons :) 

Virtual Hive Five! :)

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

41 minutes ago, tizodd said:

According to Merriam-Webster, some definitions of rotten are:

: having rotted or decayed and no longer able to be used, eaten, etc.
: very bad or unpleasant
: not well or health

So whether or not an apple is rotten can be considered a fact.  A person who who says a rotten apple isn't rotten most likely doesn't know what rotten means.

In Warframe however; whether something is broken or needs to be nerfed is totally subjective.  You may like things one way, I may like things another way, the devs might envision things yet another way.  It COULD be argued that the dev's opinion would be most correct because they created the game.  But how you and I feel about it are really just our opinions.

I won't say my opinion is right, just as I won't say your opinion is wrong.  They're our opinions.  Not facts.

Exactly,

A person who says a rotten apple isn't rotten most likely doesn't know what rotten means.

As would be people who doesn't know what imbalance means.

People view current warframe as alright simply because they've gotten used to the cheese and don't want to put forth any effort if a change were to occur. They simply don't want to adapt to a new environment and just like how natural selection is - the ones who cant adapt won't survive (Aka those type of people will leave) which happens.

As for the game being up to the devs and our opinions on things are just our perspectives (which is true) doesn't mean our opinions are of equal standing.

What OP and I stated is to benefit/improve the game with solutions that would cure current warframe of it's critical problems. These stated problems have been recognized by the Devs in devstreams - specifically "the Bourbon List" that DE_Steve mentioned. 

Me and OP are not trying to force our ideas on everyone - we are simply stating what we think is the real problem of this game and solutions to fix it and to make the community aware of these problems so they themselves can be educated and mentally prepared, which in turn brings more topic/idea creations that can help the devs improve the game even more since they read our feedback.

Edited June 15, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
edited for clarity

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

11 hours ago, xXduncanXx said:

no, just no, we already got a lot of nerfs lately we don't want  more 

 

 

Amen, & it looks like majority rules with your 88 likes lol. 

[_JustSomeone_]

6 hours ago, Redslayer230 said:

So you are ok with throwing restores every time you need energy but EV is too OP. 

With such comments i always wonder if you just hate the meta and players who cheese or hate the actual ability

Simple logic .. no need to anwer this :)

On the other hand i tend to go on long runs so i need my ammo restores and sometimes a health restore (and i know lots of players need them as well sometimes), So then .. just nerf energy restores..?

Buts thats my opinion :P . We all play the game different and see the game different (some love to enjoy every part of a game and other just want to go a straight line and end it quickly)

Edited June 15, 2016 by x_xUnknownx_x

[SergeiTheBeast]

Fix the enemies first, then deal with the rest. If you nerf weapons and frames before the enemies, you'll make this game UNPLAYABLE.

As it stands right now with the way enemies currently scale, without these mods and things they way they are, we wouldn't last outside low level content.