Saryn: Please explain, how to use, what she does, and why?

[Tomppak]

I've tried to wrap my head around why anyone would use Saryn, and considering that she's usually considered useful and effective, I'm clearly not understanding her point.

I would appreciate if someone could clearly explain what she does, and what makes her effective, and how one should use her - preferably in a way that someone who has no knowledge of her would understand.

Problems I'm having:

She's an AoE frame, right? With the spores spreading and dealing toxic and viral damage - this much I think I understand. However, the aoe seems insignificantly small, 16 meters at max for spores - basically enough to cover one group of enemies, but not much more. Further, the damage of her aoe seems insignificant - 20 damage per second? For 12 seconds? That's 240 dmg IF the enemy survives the whole 12 seconds, and usually I don't see any enemy ever surviving that long because someone shot it first. In this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/662742-saryn-could-someone-explain-toxinmoltspores/ it's clear that the spores also spreads and deals damage, but 83 extra damage (or 213, I'm still not sure where that number is coming from) still seems like a waste of time, considering that weapons deal just way more damage (from several thousand to up to tens of thousands) - it seems like she's a bit like Ember, except worse - Good in removing a lot of weak enemies, but the aoe seems useless against single targets or at higher levels? Not to mention that if the target dies, the spores will burst at reduced radius. At a level where 20-100 dmg per proc is useful, how do you shoot an enemy to burst a spore without outright killing them anyway..?

Tips&Tricks at the wiki tells me that: "Using both maximized power duration and power strength, each spore can deal 56.8 damage per second over the course of 30.54"  but still, in what situation does an enemy survive for 30 seconds before someone blows them up?

The venom dose augment seems really useful - granting an ally 100% toxin damage for 40 seconds sounds really powerful when compared to the small aoe and small damage that the spores seem to cause? As a comparison, - The Contagion Cloud augment leaves behind a cloud of toxin that does 150dmg per second, over three times the damage of a maxed spore, and you can leave it to linger on a bottleneck/doorway?

 

Molt: Okay, it's a decoy, and the explosion is okay I suppose. Can you trigger the explosion by casting this again? If not, then it seems really unreliable - with a range of 10 meters, are there enemies usually close enough to take damage from the explosion? Should one build for minimal duration, so that you could jump into a group, cast molt, and jump out, hoping that it'll explode while the enemies are still close to it?

Molt: Okay, spores cost 50% less when cast on molt, and do not damage it - What's the point of casting spores on molt, though - they are effectively doing nothing until burst?

Molt's tips and tricks make it sound like I don't understand the purpose of this power (which is obviously true - I don't) - why would you want to place molt into a hard to reach place to maximize it's survival (and likely minimizing the number of enemies under its radius), when making it explode as soon as possible sounds a lot more useful? The synergy for mods also seems backwards. Increased power strength will make the explosion more powerful, but will also delay the explosion by giving it more health..?

 

Toxic Slash: More melee damage is always good. Popping spores gives 2 energy, which is nice I suppose, but since the casting costs 50 energy and the spores cost 25 energy, the energy return sounds like it isn't making much of a difference..?

 

Miasma: Okay, this sounds like it actually deals damage, but the range is just silly again. 15 meters? That's less than Valkyr's Hysteria range, which is 20 meters at max, and the duration sounds short, 3 seconds.

 

I feel like I'm just not getting how all these powers work together. They all sound really weak individually, and for aoe purposes, casting 2-4 different powers just to get a combo going for whole 3 seconds sounds like way too much hassle, when you could just kulstar, tonkor, penta, atomos, or a variety of other AoE powers/weapons to kill the enemies..?

 

The way I understand Saryn, you're supposed to hit multiple targets with spore, then cast molt, and then either hope that it explodes and starts a chain reaction, or cast miasma to explode it to start the chain reaction, but this seems like a lot of work for little gain when compared to, say, Nyx who just turns the enemies against each other with one push of a button, or Loki which does the same, or Ember who can just activate World on Fire to melt away all enemies that come into range, or various other powers. So... Where does her strength come from, what am I not getting, is the timing and use of her powers easier than it sounds or is it really as micromanagement as it sounds like?


I really like her consept, and would love to use her, and I feel really stupid not being able to make any sense out of her. Please, draw me a clear picture, if you can ^_^

 

[VisionAndVoice]

1 hour ago, Tomppak said:

basically enough to cover one group of enemies, but not much more. Further, the damage of her aoe seems insignificant - 20 damage per second? For 12 seconds? That's 240 dmg IF the enemy survives the whole 12 seconds, and usually I don't see any enemy ever surviving that long because someone shot it first. In this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/662742-saryn-could-someone-explain-toxinmoltspores/ it's clear that the spores also spreads and deals damage, but 83 extra damage (or 213, I'm still not sure where that number is coming from) still seems like a waste of time, considering that weapons deal just way more damage (from several thousand to up to tens of thousands) -  Good in removing a lot of weak enemies, but the aoe seems useless against single targets or at higher levels? Not to mention that if the target dies, the spores will burst at reduced radius. At a level where 20-100 dmg per proc is useful, how do you shoot an enemy to burst a spore without outright killing them anyway..?

You're forgetting about viral proc from spores that straight up halves the enemies' health - that's the point of this ability, not to deal damage but to weaken enemies.

 

Second, you severely underestimate it's spreading potential. Once you start it up, you can pop spores to spread them on new enemies as they keep appearing, on and on and on, keeping large groups of enemies weakened for quite long durations of time, popping and popping spores and infecting new and new enemies in an unending cycle.

 

How do you pop a spore without killing an enemy? By being accurate. Or using weapons like shotguns, grenade launcher etc.

 

1 hour ago, Tomppak said:

Okay, it's a decoy, and the explosion is okay I suppose. Can you trigger the explosion by casting this again?

It's not "okay, it's a decoy", it's a "Hell yeah, it's a decoy!". And yes, you can trigger the explosion by casting it again. Not to mention that you can cast spores on it to help with the spreading.

 

1 hour ago, Tomppak said:

More melee damage is always good. Popping spores gives 2 energy, which is nice I suppose, but since the casting costs 50 energy and the spores cost 25 energy, the energy return sounds like it isn't making much of a difference..?

On low levels - no, it really doesn't make a difference. However on high levels against large groups of enemies that don't die in one blow it really does. Again, you severely underestimate how contagious spores actually are. On low levels or against small groups of enemies this combo is an overkill, but futrther up you can fully return energy spent on this and then some.

 

1 hour ago, Tomppak said:

Miasma: Okay, this sounds like it actually deals damage, but the range is just silly again. 15 meters? That's less than Valkyr's Hysteria range, which is 20 meters at max, and the duration sounds short, 3 seconds.

Of all Valkyr's abilities, why do you mention Hysteria in the first place? Do you even know what that "range" in this case means?

As for Miasma's range - that's done for purely balance reasons. Miasma can be quite damaging if you maximise it right (you do know that Viral and Toxin procs increase it's damage, right?), so it's probably to offset that.

 

Overall, you can say Saryn's effectiveness increases proportionally to how many enemies she faces. With smaller groups it's not that noticeable, but on large groups of tough enemies her effect is more pronounced.

40 minutes ago, aoguro_ said:

she has nice boobs, so sometimes i play her without any genderproblems inside me ... ^^)))))))))))

And yes, T&A is a factor too.

Edited June 22, 2016 by VisionAndVoice

[Pansai]

You obviously read a lot already, so I'll just fill in some things you missed.

You play her commonly by casting Spores on an enemy (or cheaper cast, sometimes easier, sometimes in a more central location on a previously cast Molt).

Spores proc Viral, effectively taking half the enemies health away, just like that. With the Acrid you can add an additional Toxin proc on the enemy with spores on.

If you then pop the spores with an appropriate gun like Ignis, they deal direct dmg to the target and dmg to all targets close by.

Spores are then spread to all enemies in range giving them the Viral (and Toxin, if you used sth. like Acrid) proc to all enemies in range.

Other players will pop spores and further spread them. If an enemy dies, the spores pop and spread even more.

In tight spaced missions with lots of enemies respawning (e.g. infested survivals) I sometimes need to cast Spores just once and every spawning enemy will be "infected" soon.

Remember, this means that the health of every enemy on the map (if you're lucky) will be halfed right away.

You usually run her with maxed range to have the spores travel further and for Miasma to cover a large area. Long Duration to keep the spores going a long time.

Casting Miasma will do a lot of dmg, you have to look at the math in the wiki, but in short: If you cast Molt (strength for a lot of HP) before casting Miasma, it pops and Miasmas dmg is multiplied by a multiplier determined by the HP your Molt had when exploding.

Miasma deals another 100% of extra dmg to enemies afflicted with Viral proc (all of them, remember?) and an additional 200% to all afflicted by both (all of them, remember?).

All enemies that die by Miasma will further spread the spores outward, infecting new spawns.

 

So, inflict all your enemies with Spores, cast a strong Molt, cast Miasma to deal huge amounts of dmg to all enemies in range and have all enemies inflicted at half their health.

In most groups I end up dealing the most dmg in a mission...

 

[renleech]

Even before her rework, Saryn benefited a lot from punch-through mods, to facilitate spore spread. Abuse of this mod and you will be happy.

Oh, and try to maximize your range too, to make sure you spread spores (and viral procs) to as many targets as possible. Except with radiation hazard sortie, of course. People asked me to not use spores there. Guess why?

As said before, don't waste spores on low level enemies.

With a good spore build, you can farm xp on draco pretty well, i don't do often because it's boring.

Edited June 22, 2016 by renleech

[Rambit23Z]

You need to remember too that once you've dropped all your abilities you can continue using your weapons while the damage is ticking down.

As others have said, she is good at melting tougher high level targets.

A few things about Toxic Lash. It's an amazing ability if you play melee Saryn with a bit of strength, and the 90% damage reduction on block is a very important aspect of that ability.

[ButterLutter]

41 minutes ago, Tomppak said:

In this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/662742-saryn-could-someone-explain-toxinmoltspores/ it's clear that the spores also spreads and deals damage, but 83 extra damage (or 213, I'm still not sure where that number is coming from) still seems like a waste of time

I am going into detail here where the numbers come from because it was me who made the post in the first place.

You cast Spores on an enemy and they start dealing damage, in this case it was 20 (depends on Strength mods).
The 83 Damage you saw in the pictures is the Toxin damage from my Acrid. This has nothing to do with the spore-damage itself.
I just took the Acrid and modded it for pure damage without multishot for example purposes because the Acrid has a 100% Toxinproc chance as long as there is no other element installed. Makes showcases much easier :)
Thats the point as a Saryn though. You spread the spores and every time a spore pops it will also carry the toxin procs to every other enemy.
So basically the 83 Damage you saw in the pictures is the pure Toxin proc on the initial target. Then you pop a spore and the spores + toxin spread.
Lets take this picture as a reference:

Spoiler

If you look closely you can see the 3x20 Damage ticks from the spores (near head, good luck searching :P (they are there, i found them))
This damage is completely irrelevant for us. What does matter is the Toxin you apply. In this case its 83 per bullet from my Acrid.
The next step is to pop the spores (the 927 Damage comes from my weapon (Dex Sybaris) and has nothing to do with the Spores/Toxin)
When bursting, the spores will deal instantly high amounts of damage which depends on the overall toxin damage the initial target had (number of Toxin procs (remember, toxin stacks!) + damage from each proc). In this case it was 849 Damage. The number goes much higher though, its just a showcase here.

This high number is a "one-time-event" which happens every single time you pop a spore. Thats why you want to pop them as fast as possible. Fast aoe weapons are perfect for this, like the Ignis or Hikou Prime with Concealed Explosives.

Whenever Toxin spreads, the new target wont get each individual toxin proc. instead all available procs will fuse together into one big proc and thats what every single new target will get. In this case thats 213 Damage. The 213 Damage will continue to tick for the remaining Toxin-proc duration.

So in short the main strategy as a Spore-Saryn is to 1) apply Toxin as fast as possible and 2) pop Spores as fast as possible.
100% Gas-Status ignis for example is perfect for this job.

Imagine you shoot into a group of enemies, lets say 10 guys. Every single one of them has 3 spores and some toxin procs. You shoot with your Ignis right into them and now 30 Spores (3x10) pop instantly with huge damage numbers. And it doesnt stop there, the spores will jump back and forth between them and you just keep spraying with your ignis and applying more and more toxin. You basically turn your meh-aoe-weapon into an insane killing machine. Thats where the fun is :D

 

All in all Saryn is really complicated with all the numbers and so on.
The best is to not think so much about it and just watch how everything dies xD

[Tomppak]

Alrighty, that clears up some matters. So the deal is more about the viral proc halving hp instead of actual direct damage... At first I thought using overextended would be a big no-no because it would cut the already smallish damage even smaller, but seeing how the effect, not the damage, is more important, I presume that running a maxed overextended (with cunning drift and stretch) would be preferred?

Also, The comparison was for Hysteria just because Hysteria has a clear visual indication of it's range, so comparing other powers to it is easy, while something like Chaos doesn't have a clear indication of where the area ends. The power itself has no meaning in the comparison, just the area.

Can an enemy be inflicted with spores more than once? Does it work like this: Infect A with spores. Pop spores, Spores spread to B and C. Pop sores on B, Spores spread back to A and C has now even more spores?

With these clarfications (more enemies=better, hp halved = better than straight damage and high level enemies = bigger benefit from viral), Saryn actually sounds like she scales really well?

 

EDIT: the viral proc lasts just for 6 seconds, 7,5 with saryn's passive. At gut I'd say that's not long enough to take care of all the enemies... But I get the feeling that the point is that killing even one of them (and/or popping a spore while doing the killing) means that more spores spread, thus keeping the viral procs up, meaning that they'll actually last a lot, lot longer than just 7,5 secs?

Edited June 22, 2016 by Tomppak

[Omega-Shadowblade]

6 minutes ago, Tomppak said:

 

EDIT: the viral proc lasts just for 6 seconds, 7,5 with saryn's passive. At gut I'd say that's not long enough to take care of all the enemies... But I get the feeling that the point is that killing even one of them (and/or popping a spore while doing the killing) means that more spores spread, thus keeping the viral procs up, meaning that they'll actually last a lot, lot longer than just 7,5 secs?

Correct: spore isn't an ability with a hard timer like banshee's resonate sonar tactic, those spores can last a long time against stronger enemies and will apply viral quite often.

[ButterLutter]

11 minutes ago, Tomppak said:

Can an enemy be inflicted with spores more than once? Does it work like this: Infect A with spores. Pop spores, Spores spread to B and C. Pop sores on B, Spores spread back to A and C has now even more spores?

Exactly :)
In an optimal situation you only need to cast Spore once at the beginning of the game.
Reality is though that sometimes it will die out because of lack of enemies.

Edit:
Enemies can have 9 Spores in total btw but thats not relevant. The damage comes from your Toxin you spread, 1 spore would be enough for this.

Edited June 22, 2016 by ButterLutter

[Amazerath]

She scales very well but armor makes her far less effective. So you'll need CP or something else in order to make her scale against armored enemies.

Also, this has already been mentioned but since it's incredibly important I'll reiterate:

1) Make sure your weapon deals either Gas or Toxic damage. Preferably Gas because that also deals toxic.

2) Make sure your weapon has a lot of status chance because that will increase the damage you deal with Spores (assuming the weapon is dealing Gas/Toxic).

3) If your weapon deals physical damage as well as elemental damage this will harm your overall Spore damage considerably. If you really want the most damage out of Spores then you have to use a weapon that only deals elemental damage and that damage will have to be either Gas or Toxic.

[Tomppak]

So... The tactic to use, is to inflict an enemy with a spore, then apply as much toxin procs to that enemy as possible (or do you first apply toxin and then a spore?), then pop the spore(s) to spread the huge stack of toxin as a single power toxin proc to nearby enemies, and then just continue popping spores for a huge chain effect of deadly toxins?

Does power strength affect the the toxin that spreads to enemies due to spores, but that is based on the toxin procs of my weapon? Or does the power strength only affect the spore 20dmg/sec damage? So main damage is based on how strong toxin procs I can apply from my weapons, not on the power of my abilities?

[ButterLutter]

8 minutes ago, Tomppak said:

do you first apply toxin and then a spore?

Doesnt matter, works both ways

9 minutes ago, Tomppak said:

then pop the spore(s) to spread the huge stack of toxin as a single power toxin proc to nearby enemies, and then just continue popping spores for a huge chain effect of deadly toxins?

correct. Keep applying Toxin all the time, it stacks infinitely. I have seen screenshots with 1 million Damage from a single Toxin proc.

11 minutes ago, Tomppak said:

Does power strength affect the the toxin that spreads to enemies due to spores, but that is based on the toxin procs of my weapon? Or does the power strength only affect the spore 20dmg/sec damage? So main damage is based on how strong toxin procs I can apply from my weapons, not on the power of my abilities?

Power strength is super important. Reason is, every time your Toxin spreads it wont spread 100% of its value. It will spread less of its value, i dont know the numbers though.
With more power strength your loss will be reduced. 

[Tomppak]

2 minutes ago, ButterLutter said:

Power strength is super important. Reason is, every time your Toxin spreads it wont spread 100% of its value. It will spread less of its value, i dont know the numbers though.

With more power strength your loss will be reduced. 

Is power strength important to the degree that you'd leave overextended out? Or would you leave overextended in and try to compensate for the lost power with other mods? What about power duration, is that important for Saryn? Which augments would you recommend? Does the toxic lash serve other purpose aside from guranteed spore pop and toxin proc? What weapon/What kind of weapons would you recommend for Saryn?

[Cashmera]

Very easy to play

1 - Anti power duration, %175 Power Efficiency, 130%~ Power Strength and %145 Range

2 - Spam skills. Toxic Lash is "not useful" for me. Spore-Spore-Miasma is classical combo.

By the way, you can put Natural Talent if you die while casting spells. And do not put Overextended. Never. Stretch is OK.

[ButterLutter]

Thats my build, feel free to play around with some mods, Saryn has enough room to play with and no super mandatory mods :)

Notice: This is a normal build i run with saryn. For Draco you really need Overextended and Cunning Drift for maximum Range.
For me, 23m is enough for normal gameplay.
Your spores will last for 15,3 seconds, should be enough to pop them before they run out.

You can add Blind Rage instead of for example Regenerative Molt if you want to add more damage. Just keep an eye for your energy, Molt and Miasma will get quite expensive.

Dont take any build for granted as if its the best build you will ever see. Everyone will have a different build depending what they like more (more strength or more range or more duration and so on). You have to find out for yourself what you like :)

[Amazerath]

51 minutes ago, Tomppak said:

So... The tactic to use, is to inflict an enemy with a spore, then apply as much toxin procs to that enemy as possible (or do you first apply toxin and then a spore?), then pop the spore(s) to spread the huge stack of toxin as a single power toxin proc to nearby enemies, and then just continue popping spores for a huge chain effect of deadly toxins?

Does power strength affect the the toxin that spreads to enemies due to spores, but that is based on the toxin procs of my weapon? Or does the power strength only affect the spore 20dmg/sec damage? So main damage is based on how strong toxin procs I can apply from my weapons, not on the power of my abilities?

Just cast Spores and spread. If you're using high status Gas or a Toxic AoE weapon then you don't even need to aim at the spore specifically. You'll naturally spread Spores simply by using your weapon. But if you prefer to use Toxin damage on a weapon that's not AoE then you'll need to aim at the spores. Another thing you can do is to cast Spores on your Molt and hit those. Or you can cast Spores on Molt and then cast another Molt, causing the first one to explode and spread Spores automatically. There's many ways to do it.

As for the second question, I'm not entirely sure which part of Spores gets affected by power strength. I think it is the AoE blast that occurs when you pop a spore and the DoT. You don't need to remove Overextend to add strength if you don't want to. The most important thing is to have the frame preform in a way that suits your play style. My Saryn is currently using a very balanced build with 130% strength, 155% range, 100% efficiency and 155% duration. It suits me just fine.

The only augment I use is the Molt one because I play a lot with random people and that means lots of people to revive. But some players completely ignore augments and prefer to add stats instead.

Power duration is not very important if you're mostly using Spores. Every time you pop a spore the duration gets renewed so as long as you're popping spores consistently they will stay there. Just keep in mind some of your teammates may end up using powers that completely remove all your spores. For example, Mag's Shield Polarize used to do this.

Toxic Lash also increases your damage reduction when you block, but that is not enough to keep you alive against high level enemies. As far as I know Toxic Lash is only really good if you're using Naramon for invisibility. Without Naramon you're going to need help from your teammates in order to handle all the damage being thrown at your Saryn. Even Regenerative Molt and lots of defense will not be enough keep you alive.

My previous post has some weapon guidelines. I use the Staticor.

[Soulden]

Been using her Spore build before changes (just never had corrupted mods until recently - fate of casual gaming).
As everyone else has mentioned, Spores (both dot and burst damage) scales GREATLY as they spread, so it is really easy to miss out how good the ability works until larger groups of enemies or under performing team.

Besides maxing range (yes you can use/should Overextended for spore build), all other stats are very forgiving, unless you want to play melee, then you might want str and duration over range, her energy efficiency is surprisingly nice in melee.

It might be even viable for melee channeling considering the dmg multiplier, I gotta get better at melee before asserting on it though.

 

[Rambit23Z]

5 hours ago, Amazerath said:

Toxic Lash also increases your damage reduction when you block, but that is not enough to keep you alive against high level enemies. As far as I know Toxic Lash is only really good if you're using Naramon for invisibility. Without Naramon you're going to need help from your teammates in order to handle all the damage being thrown at your Saryn. Even Regenerative Molt and lots of defense will not be enough keep you alive.

I disagree with this. For most builds it doesn't do much but it is extremely important with a melee build. (My preferred build)

I dislike Naramon because it feels really cheap, thus blocking becomes the best option. Reducing damage by 90% and having the remaining 10% be reduced even further by 61%. (Saryn Prime with Steel Fiber)

Neither do I use Regenerative Molt. I use Life Strike for health regen. Combined with Rage, this can allow me to permanently channel, increasing my damage by 50% (80% for the Fragor Prime) which has already been increased by 50ish% due to Toxic Lash.

[Amazerath]

@Rambit23Z

Rambit, before I can consider what you are saying I need to make sure we are not talking about completely different scenarios. In order to do that I'm going to ask some questions.

Which missions are you playing? What's the enemy level? Which factions are you playing against?

Are you playing solo, with randoms or with friends?

[Rambit23Z]

Just now, Amazerath said:

@Rambit23Z

 

Which missions are you playing? What's the enemy level? Which factions are you playing against?

Mostly Grineer and Corrupted. I've used this build effectively up to 40 waves of T4 Defence(I get bored at that point), that means around level 80 plus. I also use this build ocasionally in Sorties. Most of the time, without blessing Trins and such.

My build is also made specifically for melee.

The build:

Spoiler

As you can see. I use Rush and Handspring to make sure I can always get away from sticky situations, as mobility is key for this.

The strength is to increase my damage in general and guarantee 90% block with any weapon type. Rage and Zenurik to ensure I always have energy for Life Strike. (Life Strike is a must for this playstyle)

Do note that I have been melee-ing for about 3 years in this game.

Now, I could just pick someone like Chroma/Valkyr/Rhino etc. for melee, but I find melee Saryn much more challenging and fun.

10 minutes ago, Amazerath said:

Are you playing solo, with randoms or with friends?

Mostly Solo, the rest is with randoms. All my friends quit quite a while ago.

[Amazerath]

@Rambit23Z Your melee build is essentially the same as my ranged build. The main difference is that you chose to increase your armor and I chose to increase my power stats. You survive by relying on block and Life Strike and I survive by relying on parkour and Regenerative Molt.

I know the build, so I know it works. But I would not recommend it to someone who does not share your interest in challenge. And I would also not recommend it to someone who is not an experienced Saryn player.

[Rambit23Z]

Just now, Amazerath said:

@Rambit23Z Your melee build is essentially the same as my ranged build. The main difference is that you chose to increase your armor and I chose to increase my power stats. You survive by relying on block and Life Strike and I survive by relying on parkour and Regenerative Molt.

Parkour is just as important with my build too.

1 minute ago, Amazerath said:

I know the build, so I know it works. But I would not recommend it to someone who does not share your interest in challenge. And I would also not recommend it to someone who is not an experienced Saryn player.

And I totally agree. My playstyle is extremely risky. Going below 200 health is a comon occurrence. I just wanted to point out with my original post that Toxic Lash can keep you alive if modded for it.

This is also why I don't bring Kubrows. Too inhospitable for them.