Excalibur got overnerfed

[Epsik-kun]

@Tricky5hift

Can't say "no" to such a polite request. Sadly, I don't have footage of using the actual RB against enemies with a bit higher level, but that should give you the right idea.

Spoiler

 

 

Again, just in case, the thing you should focus your attention at is the amount of blinds required, and the usefulness of the actual finisher from the RB.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[shyguyk]

Does the blind really add damage when you should already have stealth multiplier from naramon? I think its the combo counter + corrosive procs adding damage

[Alcoholism]

Are you saying you want the ability to continually CC enemies in close proximity whilst using exalted blade?

Isn't that kind of game breaking because there are no drawbacks and can continually kill enemies with not a worry in the world?

I mean someone can easily just have a key repeater to spam exalted blade attacks and just slide every now and then - where's the skill in that?

I find this game to be a cooperative game, it doesn't exactly scream that when you have players who can easily solo survival almost infinitely.
With a team on the other hand it would be perfectly fine because players are working together to achieve it not just cheesing it solo.

That's what you meant right? The energy use was too much for such a little advantage? Radial Blind at least opens up enemies to finishers, has a larger range and a longer duration, slide blinding doesn't. Using radial blind at the right time at least means the player is using skill and not just spamming continually imo.

[Veridantus]

11 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

@Tricky5hift

Can't say "no" to such a polite request. Sadly, I don't have footage of using the actual RB against enemies with a bit higher level, but that should give you the right idea.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Again, just in case, the thing you should focus your attention at is the amount of blinds required, and the usefulness of the actual finisher from the RB.

You do realize Spin Blind cost energy now, right?
& Spin blind has a lower range & doesn't open enemies to finisher like Radial Blind?
Radial Blind is way more cost efficient than spin blind & stuns & blinds enemy longer than spin blind.

Your argument makes no sense.

[Veridantus]

1 minute ago, Alcoholism said:

Are you saying you want the ability to continually CC enemies in close proximity whilst using exalted blade?

Isn't that kind of game breaking because there are no drawbacks and can continually kill enemies with not a worry in the world?

I mean someone can easily just have a key repeater to spam exalted blade attacks and just slide every now and then - where's the skill in that?

I find this game to be a cooperative game, it doesn't exactly scream that when you have players who can easily solo survival almost infinitely.
With a team on the other hand it would be perfectly fine because players are working together to achieve it not just cheesing it solo.

That's what you meant right? The energy use was too much for such a little advantage? Radial Blind at least opens up enemies to finishers, has a larger range and a longer duration, slide blinding doesn't. Using radial blind at the right time at least means the player is using skill and not just spamming continually imo.

Well, to be fair, the game is designed for players to be able to solo all missions except raid.

Being able to survive indefinitely means the players is skilled enough to do it.

[Satinpuppies]

1 hour ago, Epsik-kun said:

Yeah, sure, let's remove the sole ability that made Excal's late-game possible.

We have radial blind already. Does the same thing. But better. You could even still slide blind without it. Slide attack then blind.

Checkmate. GG

[Alcoholism]

Just now, Veridantus said:

Well, to be fair, the game is designed for players to be able to solo all missions except raid.

Being able to survive indefinitely means the players is skilled enough to do it.

I do agree that it takes a lot of tenacity and patience to sit there playing solo for long periods of time in the one mission - I remember the time spent in Endless Rathuum for example. But I also think how little skill was required to do it, I didn't feel skillful sitting there using slide attacks one-hitting enemies with Valkyr. I also never felt skillful just spamming Exalted Blade and only ever used it when I was feeling lazy.

The fact people were using slide blind continuously AND being able to use exalted blade attacks with no drawbacks just goes to show how badly it needed to be fixed. That is game breaking, it doesn't require skill. At least now radial blind is actually being used whereas before it never did.

[Veridantus]

Just now, Alcoholism said:

I do agree that it takes a lot of tenacity and patience to sit there playing solo for long periods of time in the one mission - I remember the time spent in Endless Rathuum for example. But I also think how little skill was required to do it, I didn't feel skillful sitting there using slide attacks one-hitting enemies with Valkyr. I also never felt skillful just spamming Exalted Blade and only ever used it when I was feeling lazy.

The fact people were using slide blind continuously AND being able to use exalted blade attacks with no drawbacks just goes to show how badly it needed to be fixed. That is game breaking, it doesn't require skill. At least now radial blind is actually being used whereas before it never did.

Fair point. 
While I still think it takes quite a bit of skill soloing lvl 100++ hordes of enemies even with Exalted Blade, the Slide Blind do need tweaking along with Radial Javelin. 

[Drasiel]

57 minutes ago, TheGoodDarius said:

Alternately, it is a bonus for slide attacks. Not only you close the gap between the enemies, you also blind those around you. It cost energy, sure, but it isn't an enormous cost. It has yet to give me trouble, and with Rage equipped and a close combat strategy, I can hardly find myself completely without energy because of that. Besides, you really want to get close to the enemies? Use Slash Dash. The only reason you want to specifically use a slide attack while EB is activated is to deal with multiple enemies and EB slide attack still does that

 

Actually with the change to slide blind costing energy it is in no way a bonus to me but a Handicap. I like sliding, I slide everywhere, I use it for gap closers and to avoid heavy landings. Sliding and slide attacks are a powerful mobility tool. Now when I use exalted blade if I want to slide I have to use energy. I slide so much it more than triples the energy drain of exalted blade for me. This doesn't feel like a fair tradeoff for the tiny range, non finisher opening, non duration modified blind that comes from it. I'd rather remove the blind than pay the energy.

Death to blind slide energy cost or death to blind slide itself!

[Alcoholism]

7 minutes ago, Veridantus said:

Fair point. 
While I still think it takes quite a bit of skill soloing lvl 100++ hordes of enemies even with Exalted Blade, the Slide Blind do need tweaking along with Radial Javelin. 

I think just for now give it some time, the developers are still working on balancing it all out, that goes for all the frames and their abilities.

It's just a long and arduous process and us as players will always be there to help them through that process with valuable feedback. I think people just had a hard time understanding what OP was initially asking the developers to look into. I believe they are looking into it among many other things and again it's just a long process. For now it is just about keeping things in the game from being too easy as there are still several other aspects that need to be adjusted.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Alcoholism

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Well that's what happens when you have really vocal players focusing on trying to make their own dent in the game for jollies rather than playing it.  I'm not against feedback, but it just seems like being a back seat developer "is the cool thing to do" these days.

[gluih]

52 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

OK, I don't use Excalibur anymore, but I'm quite sure him and Valkyr were nerfed for the same reason. That is perpetually channeled abilities. When I played Excalibur, I wanted to use Exalted Blade constantly, because it was the most effective thing, but that got boring, so I got rid of him. I think his Slash Dash could use a buff, and EB could use a cast increase.

Granted, I no longer play him, so I  know how good he is, but I've seen the current EB used almost exactly the same as before, and I think that's fun. I do think the rework did a good job of making him require more skill to be at full potential. I know he still some of the best DPS in the game. That has to be at a cost, and preferably not from a safe distance.

What makes him so boring after a while is that you can just go into turret mode. Valkyr has the problem that the only enemies she cares about are nullifiers and similar enemies. Being able to constantly run around with the exalted blade is really what you would want as excal. Just make sure he actually has to melee most of the time and it's a lot more fun.

[GrimMyfanwy]

I'm going have to agree that they should just remove the slide blind, as in it's current state it works as an active hinderance to the frame rather than a benefit. The best thing they could do is, as the OP suggested, add a synergy to each of his other powers while EB is active. My suggestions would be:

• Slash Dash:: add a combo bar like Atlas' Landslide or Valkyr's ripline (to be honest I think it should be added to the power as a whole, and if they did that, then they should increase the speed at which slash dash propels you).
• Radial Blind: Increase the range and duration, as a glowing energy blade should flash brighter than a regular weapon.
• Radial Javelin: While the finisher damage the OP suggested is neat, the issue is it would severly overpower the frame. I would instead add a slash proc, or maybe an increase to the number of Javelins that spawn.

Edited June 23, 2016 by GrimKonstantin

[TheGoodDarius]

23 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Actually with the change to slide blind costing energy it is in no way a bonus to me but a Handicap. I like sliding, I slide everywhere, I use it for gap closers and to avoid heavy landings. Sliding and slide attacks are a powerful mobility tool. Now when I use exalted blade if I want to slide I have to use energy. I slide so much it more than triples the energy drain of exalted blade for me. This doesn't feel like a fair tradeoff for the tiny range, non finisher opening, non duration modified blind that comes from it. I'd rather remove the blind than pay the energy.

Death to blind slide energy cost or death to blind slide itself!

It doesn't open to finishers but still increase the damage, which is definitely a good thing. It stops them to shoot to you which is a bad thing that as a close range fighter you want to avoid. It is definitely not useless. 

As for the rest, is it really 'I like the spam sliding but now I can't do that freely, why I can't spam?" your only argument for taking away the energy cost or the blinding itself? You know what else people liked to spam? Exalted Blade turret, continuous Hysteria and Blessing. Perhaps this is a way for the DE to say to you "spamming is not the way"?

There is a reason people use parkour 2.0 instead of helicoptering like they used to. Ever since that update, I've only used Sliding to kill two or three enemies close to each other or to reach a running enemy. Perhaps you should consider to change your ways as well?

[Slaviar]

Devs want Excal to be used in melee range. But he lacks survivability for it. He's only tougher than your average warframe thanks to higher armor but it's not high enough. I'd gladly see him buffed to 150 HP and 300 armor.

Other than that, it would be nice if Slash Dash finally started targetting mobs (I almost always use Stretch but I rarely hit more than two-three mobs from the crowd), Body Count (but not Blood Rush, it would be too much) worked on EB and Furious Javelin was built into RJ. Maybe I'd finally had reason to use this trash abilty in active gameplay

[ShortCat]

50 minutes ago, Alcoholism said:

Are you saying you want the ability to continually CC enemies in close proximity whilst using exalted blade?

Isn't that kind of game breaking because there are no drawbacks and can continually kill enemies with not a worry in the world?

I mean someone can easily just have a key repeater to spam exalted blade attacks and just slide every now and then - where's the skill in that?

I find this game to be a cooperative game, it doesn't exactly scream that when you have players who can easily solo survival almost infinitely.
With a team on the other hand it would be perfectly fine because players are working together to achieve it not just cheesing it solo.

That's what you meant right? The energy use was too much for such a little advantage? Radial Blind at least opens up enemies to finishers, has a larger range and a longer duration, slide blinding doesn't. Using radial blind at the right time at least means the player is using skill and not just spamming continually imo.

If I remember correctly, noone used Slide-blind like this. At least I have not met such people ingame. But saying Slide-blind is very powerfull, thus slap energy costs on it seems unreasonable to me. When you play lower levels, you don't need to blind enemies, becasuse they are too weak. When you go higher enemies are already blinded by Radial Blind. First, I would jump in a room and blind everyone there, not use this inefficient move to disable nearby enemies, while their friends 10 meter away still shoot at me.

At this point I am even fine if they remove this perk entirely, I just would like to have my mobility back.

[Tricky5hift]

1 hour ago, Epsik-kun said:

@Tricky5hift

Can't say "no" to such a polite request. Sadly, I don't have footage of using the actual RB against enemies with a bit higher level, but that should give you the right idea.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Again, just in case, the thing you should focus your attention at is the amount of blinds required, and the usefulness of the actual finisher from the RB.

So spamming spin blind over and over again to keep one enemy blinded is better than using Radial Blind once and blinding all other enemies?

You're already using Naramon Shadowstep, this is beyond redundant.

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, TheGoodDarius said:

Alternately, it is a bonus for slide attacks. Not only you close the gap between the enemies, you also blind those around you. It cost energy, sure, but it isn't an enormous cost. It has yet to give me trouble, and with Rage equipped and a close combat strategy, I can hardly find myself completely without energy because of that. Besides, you really want to get close to the enemies? Use Slash Dash. The only reason you want to specifically use a slide attack while EB is activated is to deal with multiple enemies and EB slide attack still does that

Then, both of us had an entirely differnet experience. My strategy is to avoid as much damage as possible. I still have Rage equiped, so that i can fool around at the begging. However, the longer you play the more you feel this additional costs. Eventually you will reach a point, where getting hurt is not an option anymore. Usually at this point in a mission the best strategy is to blind everything with RB, so that you have a chance to get closer. In this situation it makes no difference, whether you have a Slide-blind or not.

I also thought this small addition would make no difference, but it does. Otherwise I wouldn't sit here.

[Drasiel]

1 minute ago, TheGoodDarius said:

It doesn't open to finishers but still increase the damage, which is definitely a good thing. It stops them to shoot to you which is a bad thing that as a close range fighter you want to avoid. It is definitely not useless. 

As for the rest, is it really 'I like the spam sliding but now I can't do that freely, why I can't spam?" your only argument for taking away the energy cost or the blinding itself? You know what else people liked to spam? Exalted Blade turret, continuous Hysteria and Blessing. Perhaps this is a way for the DE to say to you "spamming is not the way"?

There is a reason people use parkour 2.0 instead of helicoptering like they used to. Ever since that update, I've only used Sliding to kill two or three enemies close to each other or to reach a running enemy. Perhaps you should consider to change your ways as well?

A damage increase that is unneeded on top of the already existing damage increase that slide attacks give you. It only stops the enemies right beside you from shooting which if you slide into them you should be killing before they deal enough damage to be a problem. 

Yes I like to slide, it's has a multitudinous of reasons for use outside of exalted blade blind slide:

• Prevents Heavy landing animation allowing more fluid movement from high jumps
• Reduces enemy aim while closing gaps in melee
• Reduces Height of warframe allowing entrance to low gaps
• Flying Kicks to knockdown enemies
• Allows the quickest and easiest for new players to learn chain of parkour that increases velocity. Bullet Jump>Double jump>Slide>forward flip>repeat.
• Slide melee allows weapons with poor vertical range to hit "short" enemies like chargers, kubrows, or crawlers.

You seem to think my love of sliding is because it is powerful, It's not It's. because it is a useful utility and fun to use. Exalted blade now taxes me for that use when I don't even want it to be blinding enemies because it blocks them from being blinded by the better actual blind we already have until it's duration expires.

Yeah there is a reason that people use parkour 2.0 over coptering: coptering doesn't boost speed anymore. However, that has nothing to do with a power that puts a surcharge on slide attacks because of a blind that many people don't even want. What I'm basically getting from your closing thoughts is that you don't use melee slide attacks and therefore my opinion is invalid. Perhaps you should consider changing the way you view other people's experiences.

[TheGoodDarius]

Just now, ShortCat said:

Then, both of us had an entirely differnet experience. My strategy is to avoid as much damage as possible. I still have Rage equiped, so that i can fool around at the begging. However, the longer you play the more you feel this additional costs. Eventually you will reach a point, where getting hurt is not an option anymore. Usually at this point in a mission the best strategy is to blind everything with RB, so that you have a chance to get closer. In this situation it makes no difference, whether you have a Slide-blind or not.

I also thought this small addition would make no difference, but it does. Otherwise I wouldn't sit here.

Ah, but my strategy is not to get hurt, but in the eventuality that happens, I always have life strike on my melee and thus on EB. A little damage is sufficient for me to recover all HPs with one channeled attack.

Recently I use Excalibur for Sorties and I haven't fallen more than I usually do with other frames. But yes, it is just a strategy of my, build upon my playstyle.

[TheGoodDarius]

2 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

A damage increase that is unneeded on top of the already existing damage increase that slide attacks give you. It only stops the enemies right beside you from shooting which if you slide into them you should be killing before they deal enough damage to be a problem. 

Yes I like to slide, it's has a multitudinous of reasons for use outside of exalted blade blind slide:

• Prevents Heavy landing animation allowing more fluid movement from high jumps
• Reduces enemy aim while closing gaps in melee
• Reduces Height of warframe allowing entrance to low gaps
• Flying Kicks to knockdown enemies
• Allows the quickest and easiest for new players to learn chain of parkour that increases velocity. Bullet Jump>Double jump>Slide>forward flip>repeat.
• Slide melee allows weapons with poor vertical range to hit "short" enemies like chargers, kubrows, or crawlers.

You seem to think my love of sliding is because it is powerful, It's not It's. because it is a useful utility and fun to use. Exalted blade now taxes me for that use when I don't even want it to be blinding enemies because it blocks them from being blinded by the better actual blind we already have until it's duration expires.

Yeah there is a reason that people use parkour 2.0 over coptering: coptering doesn't boost speed anymore. However, that has nothing to do with a power that puts a surcharge on slide attacks because of a blind that many people don't even want. What I'm basically getting from your closing thoughts is that you don't use melee slide attacks and therefore my opinion is invalid. Perhaps you should consider changing the way you view other people's experiences.

Not really, so far they have yet to prove to be anything else but people too close minded to test things for yourself. But I'm ready to reconsider, should they prove me wrong, but alas, that has yet to happen.

As for changing ways, I'm sorry I didn't express myself clearly. The way I use slide attacks is more occasional than anything else, but I still use them. They are a good way to charge in, for instance. What I was trying to say is that you perhaps you use it too much since you said you consume all your energy, I have to assume you use it even when not necessary and mine was an invitation for you to see if it is really worthy to slide in every occasion or try a different approach, for instance Slash Dash or a stance with momentum. 

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, Epsik-kun said:

@Tricky5hift

Can't say "no" to such a polite request. Sadly, I don't have footage of using the actual RB against enemies with a bit higher level, but that should give you the right idea.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Again, just in case, the thing you should focus your attention at is the amount of blinds required, and the usefulness of the actual finisher from the RB.

All I see in this video is ShadowStep abuse. He is using Slide-blind to get blind-multiplier additionally to stealth-multiplier, and save energy on RB. If you cheese less with ShadowStep, you already use RB to survive, so you also get you multiplier.

And before you say, DE did this in order to limit abuse of EB+SS, I say this argument is nonsens, because SS is a brocken mess and needs to go not balanced around. It's like saying " It is ok, if #4 costs 200 Energy, because we have Zenurik passive."

[a-Arcadia]

Okay for me, the slide blind was a cheap mechanic, and it was slow idk, I never liked it. But now I like it less. I think that Exalted Blade, should enhance/have synergy with excal's other abilities, imo the ideal rework would be:

Exalted blade

• Add a proper 360° slide attack
• No more energy waves please, just increase the range of the blade
• Increase movement speed because (no more waves)

Slash dash

• While EB is active slash dash is free (or at least naturally very cheap, something around 3 energy) as simple as that. This will provide Excal with enough gap-closer power to compensate for the lack of waves.

Radial Blind

• While EB is active radial blind will mark enemies, marked enemies will restore a fixed amount of hp per melee hit (multiplied by three if finisher animation is done). Otherwise marked enemies have a high chance of dropping health and/or energy orbs.

Radial javelin

• While EB is active radial javelin is modified by the melee combo multiplier and it is an instant cast. If this consumes or not the combo, is open for discussion.

 

 

 

[Drasiel]

4 minutes ago, TheGoodDarius said:

Not really, so far they have yet to prove to be anything else but people too close minded to test things for yourself. But I'm ready to reconsider, should they prove me wrong, but alas, that has yet to happen.

As for changing ways, I'm sorry I didn't express myself clearly. The way I use slide attacks is more occasional than anything else, but I still use them. They are a good way to charge in, for instance. What I was trying to say is that you perhaps you use it too much since you said you consume all your energy, I have to assume you use it even when not necessary and mine was an invitation for you to see if it is really worthy to slide in every occasion or try a different approach, for instance Slash Dash or a stance with momentum. 

Well a stance with momentum won't help at all with EB which is the place where sliding has become a problem. EB has it's own in-built stance that lacks any gap closers outside of slide, they all depend on the swoosh lasers to make up the differences. Yes you could use slash dash, but that is an extremely poor choice to make concerning energy economy if there are three or less enemies in your way.

Maybe I use slide too much because I like it and it's great utility, but that doesn't mean that the energy tax on exalted slide is equal to what we are getting as a result. I mean christ slide melee is so useful with excalibur and his short range melee animations in EB. They should have put it on the backflip, that would at least make more sense from a defensive perspective and there's no way you would accidentally over use it due to muscle memory from what is free and okay everywhere else in the game.

[ShortCat]

17 minutes ago, TheGoodDarius said:

Ah, but my strategy is not to get hurt, but in the eventuality that happens, I always have life strike on my melee and thus on EB. A little damage is sufficient for me to recover all HPs with one channeled attack.

Recently I use Excalibur for Sorties and I haven't fallen more than I usually do with other frames. But yes, it is just a strategy of my, build upon my playstyle.

How much shots from a Corrupted Crewman can you tank after 40 minutes in T4. Before you say something, I tested it. With maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber, no Rediraction, a lvl 60 Crewman needs 2-3 point blank shots from the front, 1 from behind. Good luck tanking this for Rage.