Armor 2.0: Why Focus Fire on Armor Can Balance Weapons and Improve Gameplay Depth

[Tsukinoki]

1 minute ago, VandalGlitch said:

Maybe you find out also that Banshee is not stripping armor like you mentioned early.

Please look at warframe augments.

For banshee check out Sonic Fracture: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Fracture

Its a sonic boom augment that at base allows for 70% armor reduction for 8 seconds.  And since most banshee players focus on strength and duration that equates to a 100% armor reduction for a fairly long period of time.  Combined with the innate knockdown of sonic boom.  Which means that coupled with Sonar (or even without) allows for easy wiping of sizable groups.
Just use Sonic Boom and then shoot the enemies that suddenly have no armor at all and kill them incredibly quickly.
For better results combine with Sonar for even more damage or Silence to staggering enemies that try to get close to attack you.

[VandalGlitch]

8 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Please look at warframe augments.

For banshee check out Sonic Fracture: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Fracture

Its a sonic boom augment that at base allows for 70% armor reduction for 8 seconds.  And since most banshee players focus on strength and duration that equates to a 100% armor reduction for a fairly long period of time.  Combined with the innate knockdown of sonic boom.  Which means that coupled with Sonar (or even without) allows for easy wiping of sizable groups.
Just use Sonic Boom and then shoot the enemies that suddenly have no armor at all and kill them incredibly quickly.
For better results combine with Sonar for even more damage or Silence to staggering enemies that try to get close to attack you.

Ahaha...you really use that instead of 4CP?!?!?! :):):)

Edited July 5, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed rude comment

[Azrael]

8 hours ago, VandalGlitch said:

But comming from a player that uses EV trying to "strip armor" ...sry...deal damage...makes a lot of sense.

You completely ignored what we told you. Trinity can use Abating Link to strip armor. We aren't talking about EV.  http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Abating_Link

 

8 hours ago, VandalGlitch said:

Maybe you find out also that Banshee is not stripping armor like you mentioned early.

Again. you still haven't read about the augment.   http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Fracture

Edit: and do you seriously always play with 4 people? You never play when you can't have 4xCP?

Edited July 5, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed rude quoted comment

[(PSN)maelstromm15]

1 hour ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Edit: and do you seriously always play with 4 people? You never play when you can't have 4xCP?

Some people don't have much imagination in this game. They find the path of least resistance and then close their eyes and plug their ears to anyone that tries to show them another way.

On topic though, I like your idea. I don't think it's quite enough to make snipers viable on its own, but combined with some other tweaks it definitely has potential. Hell, at this point anything is better than the infinite health+ armor scaling we have now. It's upsetting when I get to level 100+ enemies on nekros and my shadows (dealing 5x damage) can't even take 5% of the enemy health. Lol.

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

This post is 8/10. Ideas that are really good but take a lot of time to implement.

[Laidain]

11 hours ago, Lactamid said:

This change could also open up for tactics like flanking, enemy "assault troops" likely have increased frontal armor and lower back armor.
Learning weakpoints (other than headshots) could also be cool.
 

Yeah and each time an enemy spawned these "weak points" would be randomized. 

[Lactamid]

23 minutes ago, Pratigious said:

Yeah and each time an enemy spawned these "weak points" would be randomized. 

Could probably be done with various armor pieces like the comba/scrambus enemies, but I was thinking more like shooting their arms to make them drop their weapons, or shooting a leg to make them fall, maybe hitting the armor at the front will stun them but do little damage otherwise. While shooting them in the back would do alot more damage.

Your idea sound more doable though, and perhaps more practical as when you just blast away you'll hit those special spots anyway and then everything kind of falls off, unless you have a buffer - hit arm a lot = drops weapon etc.
Oh well it was a thought :)

[Mr.Lube]

I would love to see something a long these lines be brought into Warframe. Unfortunately, judging from past decisions, DE will most likely take the path of least resistance and simply "buff" Sniper Rifles by giving them an explosion on headshot. Basically turning them into less effective Tonkors.

In my experience, DE is not known for looking at the big picture or the endgame goal. 

[Rex13568]

16 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Ah, yes. Fracturing Crush. You know, I've been thinking about Polarize lately, and how its armor reduction doesn't scale, and I forgot about fracturing crush, which does scale. So yes, Mag as well.

 

Okay, seriously, what's going on? You're MR 21, with almost as much mastery as me. You started just a few months ago, have over 1300 in-game hours logged, and apparently are learning most of this for the first time...

Okay, I'll bite. Any weapon that can proc a decent number of status effects per second can strip armor if modded for corrosive damage. Most weapons can if given long enough, but certain weapons are exceptional at this. Some (but not all) examples are: Strun Wraith, Torid, Akstiletto Prime, Tysis, Prisma Grakata, and even Braton Prime. Bringing one of these weapons allows a solo player to effectively deal with heavy armor without warframe powers, although as you go higher in level some of these weapons lose their effectiveness. By far the most standout examples are Strun Wraith and Torid, and these can strip armor off of very high level enemies with relative ease.

Check out http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Effect for more information.

Arrg i like that you mentioned tysis most peeps don't but then you proceed to down play it, My tysis takes 2 shot to remove 100% Armor which takes all of .2 seconds

Older Build. Warframe builder wont let me scroll through the mods: http://goo.gl/FdxO2y

(I've gotten Addicted to the weapon)(just pop a few into a heavy and he is killing his friends, out of armor and at half Health)

 

Edited July 6, 2016 by Rex13568
The Mad Hatter Was Hare

[Azrael]

6 minutes ago, Rex13568 said:

Arrg i like that you mentioned tysis most peeps don't but then you proceed to down play it, My tysis takes 2 shot to remove 100% Armor which takes all of .2 seconds

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to downplay it.  :)

Truth be told, I haven't worked on mine yet. I've seen it in action and know about what it can do, but I need more formas...

I've seen it strip armor off of a level 135 bombard in about a clip, so I know it's decent. Personally I prefer the Strun Wraith, though, as it will strip a bit faster and it can kill them once the armor is gone.  :)

 

 

9 hours ago, Pratigious said:

Yeah and each time an enemy spawned these "weak points" would be randomized. 

That would defeat the purpose of learning where the weakspots are. I prefer being able to develop muscle memory to aim at the right spot on each enemy type.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

20 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

@WiiConquered:

I totally agree about the Aim-not-Required Issue.
I totally agree with the removal of Corrosive Projection and raising of Single Target Skills' damage. A problem could be the spam, btw.

The reason I'm not too worried about spam is, as long as only single/limited target abilities are selected, it's not like any of these will cause map-wiping or anything like that. Instead, they'll just have some usefulness past the point where the damage alone won't.

20 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

I don't agree about Melee Weapons directly reducing armor.
For suspension of disbelief, I can't see a blade cutting through an armor made to be resilient to Slashing attacks.

  Reveal hidden contents

Ingame Example and Ideas..
I can see it done from a weapon with high Corrosive or Piercing Damage.
A spiked club, a spear, some extremely sharpened blade.
Maybe only a weapon which specialized damage is high enough over a Resilience Cap or a Breaking Point.

 

I considered making these effects tied to a specific damage type but ultimately decided it would become too mandatory.

20 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

 

► It's interesting your proposal about Armor Reduction. I had a similar idea to your concept.
I think it's a problem that has to be addressed with Status Effects and Damage Types (Piercing Damage).

Clarification:

   Hide contents

Its Status -instead than the Weakness Status, should apply a weakspot (let's call it 'Breach' Status Effect) ala Banshee's Sonar (as you suggested), like breaching open an armor spot, increasing the Weakspot damage, ignoring armor and increasing status chance application on that body area (maybe not all of them together which may lead to a Piercing Status Weapon meta).

This way certain weapons would be more proficent at stripping armor and others at damaging weakspots.
Ex. "Can Opener" weapons like Status Weapons.

Can you imagine a Weapon with high Piercing damage able to open a breach on an armored targets with the first shot, if not lethal, and finishing the job with the subsequent shot? Be it a Sniper, be it a Shotgun, be it an Hand-Cannon.
(Sniper rifles in this case should retain 100% Status effect on hitting a Weakspot.)

 

This is another way of designing it. The major benefit is the drawback: it's more flexible. If done well, there would be lots of cool stuff that could be done. If not, though, it could damage the benefits of the system. But I suppose that's like the OP anyway.

20 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

Related OFFTOPIC: (Should skip if not interested)

  Reveal hidden contents

Another problem here are more Status effects that together don't make sense.
Rainbow Status Modding.
A single Elemental Combo should be active at time. No more than 1 Elemental Combo.
Maybe the higher Damage retains 75% of the total status effect to apply, other damage types retains the remaining 25%.
This way there's a more deep demarcation on damage type and weapon specific use.
- - - - - - - - - -
A weapon should be loaded with just one kind of Explosive Ammos, Poisoned Ammos, Piercing Ammos, not everyone together.
- - - - - - - - - -
This way people are forced into choosing if relying on Ammos made to Pierce armor, damage permanently it or getting other effects.
- - - - - - - - - -
Mods with status effect should be toned down, like reducing damage for a Status increase.
This is again the Damage Modding Issue surfacing here too.
- - - - - - - - - -
Sniper weapons with high damage and slow Rate of Fire should get a 100% status effect, fast RoF or multishot weapons like automatics should be stuck down to 5-10%, increasing it would require a reduction of damage instead than RoF.
- - - - - - - - - -
Also Heat damage should overheat some kind of armors, reducing or damaging them.

OFFTOPIC END.

Another problem here are more Status effects that together don't make sense.
Rainbow Status Modding.
A single Elemental Combo should be active at time. No more than 1 Elemental Combo.
Maybe the higher Damage retains 75% of the total status effect to apply, other damage types retains the remaining 25%.
This way there's a more deep demarcation on damage type and weapon specific use.
- - - - - - - - - -
A weapon should be loaded with just one kind of Explosive Ammos, Poisoned Ammos, Piercing Ammos, not everyone together.
- - - - - - - - - -
This way people are forced into choosing if relying on Ammos made to Pierce armor, damage permanently it or getting other effects.
- - - - - - - - - -
Mods with status effect should be toned down, like reducing damage for a Status increase.
This is again the Damage Modding Issue surfacing here too.
- - - - - - - - - -
Sniper weapons with high damage and slow Rate of Fire should get a 100% status effect, fast RoF or multishot weapons like automatics should be stuck down to 5-10%, increasing it would require a reduction of damage instead than RoF.
- - - - - - - - - -
Also Heat damage should overheat some kind of armors, reducing or damaging them.
 

I agree with you on most of this (my post was originally going to be more about status effects than armor). I wouldn't necessarily give snipers guaranteed status, but I'd make it very high.

20 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

► Enemy Armors should receive Resilience, a passive Status resistance, generically overall the body or on specific body parts.
Some kind of armors will be more resilient to Piercing damage, some other more resilient to Slash damage, etc.
Reducing the chance, that a specific status will be applied.

 

I'm on the fence about this. It could be an interesting way to combat specific status's being used for certain factions, but overall I think just balancing status would have that effect. And I'm not sure armor needs more benefits.

20 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

► Accuracy can be rewarded also by adding Weakspot/Headshot Multiplier and Bodyshot Multiplier.
Weapons then should be balanced through these stats:
      Weakspot M. - Headshot M. - Bodyshot M. - Status Application (considering armor stripping) - RoF.

Example:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ex. Sniper weapons: really high Weakspot/Headshot M., moderate Bodyshot M. - High Status (considering the RoF).
      Auto weapons: moderate Weakspot/Headshot M., moderate high Bodyshot M., - Low Status (considering RoF).
      Status Auto wpns: moderate high Weakspot/Headshot M., low Bodyshot M., - moderate high Status (considering Rof).

 

For the sniper concerns people are having, this is another way to handle that-high weak spot multiplier and adept at tearing off armor.

20 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

► Another idea (supporting your concept) that could be fitting is Armor's Breaking Point, a quantity of specified damage which the armor can sustain basing on the Resistences and Weaknesses it has.



Let's make an example taking Ferrite Armor:

  Reveal hidden contents

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Ferrite_Armor
It takes 100% damage from Impact, 150% from Puncture, 85% from Slash, 175% from Corrosive, 75% from Blast.

Let's claim its Breaking Point is 1000.

Basing on damage and resistances, a weapon should deal:
1000 Impact damages or 500 Puncture damage or 1150 Slash damage or 250 Corrosive damage or 1250 Blast damage as different instances.
(Maths can be uncorrect for an haste matter)

Or receiving an single hit strong enough to deal 100% of its total (usually a Critical Hit or a Weakspot Hit).
This to suit the situation in which:
► a blade is sharpened enough to surpass the Ferrite Armor's resistance to Slash damage.
► or an explosion is strong enough to overtake the Ferrite Armor's resistance to Blast damage.

After Breaking Point is blown, weapon is permanently removed.

All of this, of course based on the Enemy Level and Common Sense.

   Hide contents

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Ferrite_Armor
It takes 100% damage from Impact, 150% from Puncture, 85% from Slash, 175% from Corrosive, 75% from Blast.

Let's claim its Breaking Point is 1000.

Basing on damage and resistances, a weapon should deal:
1000 Impact damages or 500 Puncture damage or 1150 Slash damage or 250 Corrosive damage or 1250 Blast damage as different instances.
(Maths can be uncorrect for an haste matter)

Or receiving an single hit strong enough to deal 100% of its total (usually a Critical Hit or a Weakspot Hit).
This to suit the situation in which:
► a blade is sharpened enough to surpass the Ferrite Armor's resistance to Slash damage.
► or an explosion is strong enough to overtake the Ferrite Armor's resistance to Blast damage.

After Breaking Point is blown, weapon is permanently removed.

All of this, of course based on the Enemy Level and Common Sense.

This is actually what I'm aiming for here, with that breaking point being dependant on what part of the body is hit (ex: hitting the chest won't remove leg armor). But I like the way you've explained it here--would you mind if I added it to the OP?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

9 hours ago, Pratigious said:

Yeah and each time an enemy spawned these "weak points" would be randomized. 

I think for many enemies they shouldn't be. Scorpions and Ancients, for example, should have one on the hookshot side, encouraging good movement. Heavies should have a weak spot on the whole back, and maybe the arm they punch the ground with (plus a slower animation for that attack). Likewise for other enemies with similar attack patterns.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

19 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Nice ideas. Couple of points though:

Melee already has the combo multiplier, stealth multiplier and Naramon Shadow Step. Adding this would be overkill.

I admit I don't farm focus, so I can't speak for shadow step. I don't think the combo or stealth multipliers alone make melee stronger than guns in any way, though.

19 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Single target abilities have the lowest cost. They aren't meant to be powerful since they can be used in quick succession. A better suggestion IMO would be to add synergy with the rest of the kit. Like how Ember's Accelerant increases damage of Fireball, or Volt's Shock with ES, etc. 

I think this does add synergy--these abilities don't do much damage, but they do reduce armor. What that would mean is now AoE abilities would be more effective on enemies that had been attacked with these ones.

[-CM-Emptiness]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)WiiConquered said:

I think this does add synergy--these abilities don't do much damage, but they do reduce armor. What that would mean is now AoE abilities would be more effective on enemies that had been attacked with these ones.

While that isn't a bad suggestion in itself, I think you're cutting it a bit close.. Reason being, the primary idea was to introduce a mechanism by which armor could be penetrated, allowing for certain classes like Snipers to achieve more viability. If you plan on spreading this concept to melee, and above all, abilities, do you think players will be bothered to shoot the same spot when they could just utilize these alternative options?

[Rex13568]

6 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

While that isn't a bad suggestion in itself, I think you're cutting it a bit close.. Reason being, the primary idea was to introduce a mechanism by which armor could be penetrated, allowing for certain classes like Snipers to achieve more viability. If you plan on spreading this concept to melee, and above all, abilities, do you think players will be bothered to shoot the same spot when they could just utilize these alternative options?

Exactly what i was thinking! but it would not make sense to not add it for everything else.....

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

10 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

While that isn't a bad suggestion in itself, I think you're cutting it a bit close.. Reason being, the primary idea was to introduce a mechanism by which armor could be penetrated, allowing for certain classes like Snipers to achieve more viability. If you plan on spreading this concept to melee, and above all, abilities, do you think players will be bothered to shoot the same spot when they could just utilize these alternative options?

Yes:

Melee often requires you to take lots of damage. Then there's the decreased DPS compared to ranged weapons. Overall, you strip lots of armor but don't do more damage than a player focus-firing, and take more damage. Easier to use, but you get less benefits.

As for abilities, the ones I'd suggest giving this ability to already don't scale well. Since the health of armor scales, they will not actually be that effective at stripping through armor like rifles. What they will do, however, is reduce the health of that armor all over, meaning a rifle will be able to cut through faster. Ex: if a Lancer's chest armor had 1000 health (let's say it's level 40 or so, but I haven't balanced the numbers yet and am ignoring resistances), and it got hit with a 250 damage Psychic Bolt, it would now be down to 750 health, making it easier for a rifle to cut through that spot. But the same would go for a leg, were the rifle to hit there.

If someone wanted to cast 4 psychic bolts, going through 200 energy and several seconds, to remove the armor of one lancer, they could. But I doubt many would find that time effective compared to shooting it. And that's not considering a more heavily armored enemy like a Bombard.

 

Maybe it would help to clarify that this isn't a massive, end-all buff to abilities, nor should it be taken in place of something like Archwizard's thread. But it does help.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

23 minutes ago, Rex13568 said:

Exactly what i was thinking! but it would not make sense to not add it for everything else.....

In fairness, the counter would be to treat them like Launchers: divide the damage equally over every part of the armor, making them very ineffective at removing it. Or, for melee, make the damage hit whichever part the weapon strikes first, though I fear this would make combos a hindrance since they hit from multiple angles.

[-CM-Emptiness]

1 hour ago, (PS4)WiiConquered said:

Melee often requires you to take lots of damage. Then there's the decreased DPS compared to ranged weapons. Overall, you strip lots of armor but don't do more damage than a player focus-firing, and take more damage. Easier to use, but you get less benefits.

As for abilities, the ones I'd suggest giving this ability to already don't scale well. Since the health of armor scales, they will not actually be that effective at stripping through armor like rifles. What they will do, however, is reduce the health of that armor all over, meaning a rifle will be able to cut through faster. Ex: if a Lancer's chest armor had 1000 health (let's say it's level 40 or so, but I haven't balanced the numbers yet and am ignoring resistances), and it got hit with a 250 damage Psychic Bolt, it would now be down to 750 health, making it easier for a rifle to cut through that spot. But the same would go for a leg, were the rifle to hit there.

If someone wanted to cast 4 psychic bolts, going through 200 energy and several seconds, to remove the armor of one lancer, they could. But I doubt many would find that time effective compared to shooting it. And that's not considering a more heavily armored enemy like a Bombard.

Maybe it would help to clarify that this isn't a massive, end-all buff to abilities, nor should it be taken in place of something like Archwizard's thread. But it does help.

There are ways to avoid taking damage for melee. That is, Invisibility, Vex Armor, Iron Skin, Hysteria etc. Melee also has no reload time, benefits from speed buffs and doesn't require aiming. If you also apply the combo counter to that, melee scales extremely well compared to the rest. Might be lower at the beginning, but it definitely catches up if you can keep the multiplier up. I believe I already mentioned the x8 stealth multiplier, and I also know that you haven't tried Naramon, but the +30% critical chance and Permanent Invisibility (with any frame) surely balance the scales. For a completely prepped player I'd think this would only give them the edge :P That being said, Naramon will probably be getting a rework, the enemy-rework will be incoming, Damage 3.0 etc. I'll reserve my final judgment until then.

Also, provided that abilities give a lower level of armor reduction than focus fire, I would support. It increases viability of certain 'lacking' weapon classes, and at the same time unskilled players don't fall too far behind since they can use abilities to remove armor.

Edited July 6, 2016 by -CM-Emptiness

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

2 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

There are ways to avoid taking damage for melee. That is, Invisibility, Vex Armor, Iron Skin, Hysteria etc. Melee also has no reload time, benefits from speed buffs and doesn't require aiming. If you also apply the combo counter to that, melee scales extremely well compared to the rest. Might be lower at the beginning, but it definitely catches up if you can keep the multiplier up. I believe I already mentioned the x8 stealth multiplier, and I also know that you haven't tried Naramon, but the +30% critical chance and Permanent Invisibility (with any frame) surely balance the scales. For a completely prepped player I'd think this would only give them the edge :P That being said, Naramon will probably be getting a rework, the enemy-rework will be incoming, Damage 3.0 etc. I'll reserve my final judgment until then.

I can accept this assessment. I think melee needs a full rework anyway, and can definitely understand why you would feel this isn't a stand-in for that or better than the current system.

2 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Also, provided that abilities give a lower level of armor reduction than focus fire, I would support. It increases viability of certain 'lacking' weapon classes, and at the same time unskilled players don't fall too far behind since they can use abilities to remove armor.

 

[motorfirebox]

6 hours ago, Rex13568 said:

Exactly what i was thinking! but it would not make sense to not add it for everything else.....

Well, it would make sense not to add it to anything that doesn't concentrate all of its damage in a small area.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

17 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Well, it would make sense not to add it to anything that doesn't concentrate all of its damage in a small area.

I may change the OP to better reflect the melee changes as the most debatable, least necessary part of my post.

On July 5, 2016 at 3:37 PM, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

This post is 8/10. Ideas that are really good but take a lot of time to implement.

I'm glad you like the ideas. I think spending a lot of time on armor changes is worth it; I haven't been a fan of most of the quick fixes to gamplay problems in the past.