War Within Hype Thread (You Must Prepare)

[arch111]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

Brace yourself for being completely wrong.

You sound much too certain :/.

Oh well, the why of this is still unknown - at least to me it is.

[StonedMakak]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

I'm more willing to forgive an inhuman alien with a vulnerability to void energy who tried to keep us from entering a state that the last example of which is actually worse than the Orokin.

I mean the Stalker literally betrayed every living being to the genocide-machines because of a grudge.

I'd be a little nervous about making more of those as well. Especially given the void is not something she is particularly good with.

A little off-topic, but it would super lame if Stalker really was just a pouting, edgy brat as per the running joke in the community. I like to think that he has no personality at all, that his operator committed suicide upon learning the truth and the operator's last emotions i.e. wanting to kill himself, maybe mixed with the guilt of killing the Orokin, kinda imprinted on his warframe. Sort of like an AI stuck in a loop.  

Or maybe he is just that angsty. 

Edited July 11, 2016 by tisdfogg

[Talgehurst]

Has anyone watched this teaser with the original one, the one with the Queens' voices in it?  I have a feeling that the "War Within" has less to do with a war between Tenno, or a war between Tenno and their Warframes.  I have more reason to believe that the War is between the Two Queens.  One wanting to return to the Orokin way of life and "peace". More importantly, afraid of what our new awareness means for her own safety, especially with the coming "Conjunction".  What ever that may be.

The other going whole hog on the genocidal march that the Grineer are on.  Wanting the Tenno to come and fight, perhaps to take control of a Warframe.  Likely leading to a Tenno vs Warframe battle, or battles, but that's not the War.

Which is where Teshin comes in.  We have reason to believe that he's Orokin, but not the ruling caste.  Where as the Queens, were before their Exile.  I pose a theory that the scared Queen reached out to Teshin to rescue her, and not the Tenno, as that would have set off the Trap that the Genocidal Queen wants.  Teshin trains the Tenno, understands them, who else would you call to pull of what the Tenno can do without actually calling a Tenno.  Teshin.  And then you show up, trigger the trap and "Ruin us both."

 

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, arch111 said:

You sound much too certain :/.

Oh well, the why of this is still unknown - at least to me it is.

Well, in part......I am recalling the fact that we've had this specific conversation before.

 

 

[Kaisty]

3 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I'm more willing to forgive an inhuman alien with a vulnerability to void energy who tried to keep us from entering a state that the last example of which is actually worse than the Orokin.

I mean the Stalker literally betrayed every living being to the genocide-machines because of a grudge.

I'd be a little nervous about making more of those as well. Especially given the void is not something she is particularly good with.

The problem with how Natah handled it comes in two forms, both in game and out of game. If DE would have had this setup at the start (not hidden in the codex) where we knew that we were irradiated children controlling biosuits in a universe where there are not many we can trust, some would have an issue but a the same time they would understand that is how it goes and there is no changing from it. Even if they said "The player will know this, but their character does not know it because it would lead them to go crazy." then it would still have led to less of the "Kill the Sentient. Natah has to go!" feel in the game because there is no big reveal with people after they have certain head canons describing how their Tenno may look.

In game, they may have the whole "can't let them know because they will go crazy" setup so long as they make mention of it happening more than just one time. If it was consistent with it letting Tenno know in different ways, then I would agree that waiting to find it out would have worked out better. Likewise having it acting as a mother to the Tenno is a detriment to Natah because not many people want their ultra murdering mercenaries to keep referring to their contact as "Mother Lotus". Plus, to have it be the main source of alerts and missions and other important things in game may seem to work well for DE, but some don't like to keep seeing or hearing Natah's voice for everything. If I am running a mission for SM, I only want to hear from SM unless an assassin is jumping into the mission. It has nothing to do with Natah at all. Add in Natah's incessant ramblings about the same thing during missions even when you are extremely far away from starting planets without a turn off button and you got a recipe for players wanting to shut it up for good.

In the end, I am unable to trust Natah due in part that even in many games where the devs will point out who is good and who is evil, they have better reasoning as to why their beings are pure good or evil. Natah's only point is " Betrayed its species to keep the Tenno as its children" and by that function we are supposed to trust it because DE says the Tenno and Natah are good while everyone else is evil? I've said it before and said it again, we are only good because DE railroads the player into doing so. If given an option to save a colony or wipe it out for a few shiny objects, there are a good chunk that would commit pixelated genocide for those extra scraps. I would especially do it even if the objects given was an Ammo drum, infamy for my Tenno, and a crisp high five because the whole "Tenno care about everyone and won't hurt citizens" does not hold up well if we don't SEE citizens! Some liked the idea of being mercenaries because groups of Tenno can join the opposite sides of a conflict and there is no backlash other than getting marked by an assassin squad.

[(XBOX)Drunken Swede]

To those who have seen the latest trailer for The War Within, it would appear that at the heart of the Grineer Empire is an amalgamation of Orokin technology presumably inhabited by the Twin Queens themselves.

TL;DR: Is Teshin, who is an Orokin survivor, collaborating with the Twin Queens in order to maintain his unexplained long lived life? And if so, what does he have to gain or give to the Queens for such perks? Is he a mastermind behind the Grineer Empire itself?

Many theorize, and I know this all sounds like a beginning spiel straight out of Ancient Aliens, that the Twin Queens are either Orokin survivors themselves or at the very least a continuation of high quality clones from before the Old War itself.

This would of course require the use of intact Orokin technology seen in the aforementioned trailer, likely used exclusively for the Twin Queens.

But what if Teshin is pulling the strings behind the Grineer Empire itself. Perhaps using them as a balancing factor against the other existing factions or at the very least collaborating with the Twin Queens in order to access life extending techologies?

My reasoning is that it has been hinted that Teshin's long life span is a mystery to the Tenno. The Lotus or Simaris are likely aware but we all know how they like to hide information from us.

I know this isn't an intact theory but I'd like to get a ball rolling to see what everyone thinks or if there has been any information I failed to see.

Post Script: Or, is it Sentient technology rather than Orokin? *Que X-Files music.*

Edited July 11, 2016 by (XB1)Drunken Swede
A simple little afterthought.

[arch111]

40 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Well, in part......I am recalling the fact that we've had this specific conversation before.

 

 

Well, Teshin allways was an outside player. Hard to tell really, since he claims to have wandered looking for redemption and found it in the conclave.

He is die hard orokin, that's never been in question.

I doubt the queens are orokin though, at least not like Ballas.

Theres more to this. I think it has to do with our warframes. 

[Mr.Bright]

Given what the Kuria lore reveals we are pretty sure the Twin Queens are Orokin or at least are from the Orokin era. I don't see Teshin as the type to pull strings, but I could see the Queens pulling his. Though what control they have over him, if any is a mystery still.

[Hayzemet]

Never trust Dax scum

[SilentMobius]

 

1 hour ago, Kaisty said:

In the end, I am unable to trust Natah due in part that even in many games where the devs will point out who is good and who is evil, they have better reasoning as to why their beings are pure good or evil. Natah's only point is " Betrayed its species to keep the Tenno as its children" and by that function we are supposed to trust it because DE says the Tenno and Natah are good while everyone else is evil? I've said it before and said it again, we are only good because DE railroads the player into doing so. If given an option to save a colony or wipe it out for a few shiny objects, there are a good chunk that would commit pixelated genocide for those extra scraps. I would especially do it even if the objects given was an Ammo drum, infamy for my Tenno, and a crisp high five because the whole "Tenno care about everyone and won't hurt citizens" does not hold up well if we don't SEE citizens! Some liked the idea of being mercenaries because groups of Tenno can join the opposite sides of a conflict and there is no backlash other than getting marked by an assassin squad.

That is just a failure to read the tone of the setting, I mean we have word-of-god that the Tenno are "The good guys" and just like Lara croft can't mow down children and Commander Shepard can't glass all planets with Asari on it, the Tenno react to the Origin system as a military force with a conscience regardless to what degree the player base do-or-do-not fit the mold of basement-dwelling, entitled, sociopaths.

The will of the players is always filtered through the lens of the creators, railing against the bounds of that is just futile and self-defeating. Like getting angry at blue paint for not being red.

Either commit to the setting or realize that you will be consistently irritated by the plot for no reason other than your own failure to engage with it.

Edited July 11, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Compassion]

Yes, in the teaser at Tennocon, the Tenno person said: “This doesn't look Grineer”. I wonder how much Orokin is in the grineer, well they certainly don't go with the perfection look, that's for sure...

[SilentMobius]

15 minutes ago, arch111 said:

I doubt the queens are orokin though, at least not like Ballas.

Did you read the Kuria poem? They are Orokin who couldn't achieve good standing due to (at that time) being identical twins. And they've survived since the Orokin era (by whatever means) They might not be Executors like Ballas but they are Orokin.

Hell, from the trailer you can see that the architecture is black and red Orokin architecture and the Tenno even comments on the fact that they are surprised it's not Grineer architecture.

[BornWithTeeth]

The thing is....Kaisty, I cannot accept that your viewpoint is, uh, unbiased and objective. You refer to the Lotus always as 'Natah', like it's a personal insult, and speak with glee of your desire to murder her, over and over in multiple threads. You repeat, over and over across multiple threads, that you want to see Tenno murder civilians and casually allow colonies to be destroyed in exchange for scraps. Not, I will quite freely accept, for your own amusement, or even because you personally want to take part in virtual warcrimes.....but because you want to see your own personal headcanon validated, and that headcanon is that the Tenno are conscienceless psychopaths who would throw a million civilians into a meatgrinder in exchange for a handful of Fusion Cores.

 

So, when you say these things, you're not describing hard facts about the game. You are expressing your own personal preferences. Now, you're completely, 100% free to do that, that's fine. But, you can't really insist that it's the truth, when it's not. You can say "I would prefer the sky to be green". You can't really say "The true colour of the sky is green, and it's aggravating that my eyes lie to me and make it look blue."

Edited July 11, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[SilentMobius]

20 minutes ago, Mr.Bright said:

Given what the Kuria lore reveals we are pretty sure the Twin Queens are Orokin or at least are from the Orokin era. I don't see Teshin as the type to pull strings, but I could see the Queens pulling his. Though what control they have over him, if any is a mystery still.

This, it's stated quite clearly, The Queens are Orokin, Teshin is probably a Dax and is honour bound (or something more visceral) to obey them.

 

... for now.

[PhillipJokar]

I've always been under the assumption that the twin queens were either Orokin or Tenno in origin based on their background, and have either molded the Grineer into what we now see after the uprising or been kept as keepsafes and awoken temporarily now and then.

I'm assuming that either Teshin has been protecting them (they might even be in a dream state like we were) or he made a deal with the sentients and survived (either asleep or with his life extended).

Edited July 11, 2016 by PhillipJokar

[BornWithTeeth]

9 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Did you read the Kuria poem? They are Orokin who couldn't achieve good standing due to (at that time) being identical twins. And they've survived since the Orokin era (by whatever means) They might not be Executors like Ballas but they are Orokin.

Hell, from the trailer you can see that the architecture is black and red Orokin architecture and the Tenno even comments on the fact that they are surprised it's not Grineer architecture.

The thing about the twins is especially interesting.

 

From what we know about Orokin society, freebirths were rare. Everyone in the high ranks was engineered, down to the last chromosome. Twins were a thing hardly ever seen, and identical twins were basically forbidden. Why? Because identical twins are natural clones, and in the Orokin empire, being a clone means being a slave. In some cases being a highly valued slave, but a slave nonetheless.

 

It also explains why the Grineer worship them. Twins, natural clones, but without the Grineer degeneration. Instead, they seemed to be from such a high caste corpus (their father had the power to defy the law for their sake) that may have the genetic markers required to gain command access to some of the remaining Orokin infrastructure.

 

Born Orokin, identical twins and natural clones, apparently savage and powerful fighters. It seems almost perfect that they would end up ruling the Grineer.

[OniDax]

I just wish the queens acted more Orokin, more distinguished, more like Ballas, instead of like a couple of animated Disney villains.

[arch111]

It's all so confusing.

The Queens order all warframes to be destroyed on sight - not to wake up or study.

Vor does it anyway and wants to cure the Grineer by using the Tenno blood.

For his trouble he is demoted.

Then Teshin helps Tenno remember by forcing Lotus hand, exposing her as a Sentient, Ending the Second Dream and waking the Tenno.

He knew of the Sentients,  but not that Lotus was one. He did recognise Hunhow as one and tried to stop his release.

He trains the Tenno in combat, he tells them that the Sentients are coming.

When the Queens hear the Second Dream is over, they wait for the Tenno to come and find them.

"Like the answer to a Prayer."

In the reveal, Teshin says

"You should not have come here. You have ruined us both."

Seems like Teshin do NOT want the Tenno to find the Queens, but the Queens are looking forward to it.

There is a missing piece of this puzzle.

 

[OniDax]

11 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

This, it's stated quite clearly, The Queens are Orokin, Teshin is probably a Dax and is honour bound (or something more visceral) to obey them.

 

... for now.

This

 

is true.

[Kaisty]

18 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

 

That is just a failure to read the tone of the setting, I mean we have word-of-god that the Tenno are "The good guys" and just like Lara croft can't mow down children and Commander Shepard can't glass all planets with Asari on it, the Tenno react to the Origin system as a military force with a conscience regardless to what degree the player base do-or-do-not fit the mold of basement-dwelling, entitled, sociopaths.

The will of the players is always filtered through the lens of the creators, railing against the bounds of that is just futile and self-defeating. Like getting angry at blue paint for not being red.

Either commit to the setting or realize that you will be consistently irritated by the plot for no reason other than your own failure to engage with it.

The problem is not the failure to read the tone of the setting, but how the tone is shown. Lara Croft doesn't mow down children because there are no children or maps where she is using weapons among civilians. With the exception of certain parts where you can kill off an entire species, Shepard doesn't glass planets because of the greater threat to the galaxy and the story has valid reasons why Shepard is unable to do that (I.E. he Normandy is not a planet buster). To just say "You can't because the Tenno are good guys" while we are violently decimating units in the most horrific ways is pure fail on DE's part. There is less connection to why we should care about the Tenno over the average mob from any of the other main factions other than "We control them and can customize them."

Second, "nice" use of the whole "basement-dwelling, entitled, sociopaths." Passive aggressive with insults much? It would be one thing if the Tenno had the ability to be evil but then take the high road because every other faction is already doing it, but another when we do it because we are locked into it for the fact that DE couldn't add depth to our faction other than "We are the good guys!"

The plot already is going to be irritating once you have seen enough types of media like it to the point that you hope the cliches that are used have some emotional pull to keep you invested or a twist you have not seen before. But if the pull isn't there, then why care about the universe and the beings in it? Warframe's pull via story is lacking to say the least, with some players only playing for game reasons (E.G. Spent tons of money in the game and wanting their worth, seeing if the game gets better or worse, etc.)  and it gets annoying when lore is used to change some game play.

[(PSN)dursereg]

Spoiler spoiler keeping mouth shut.....

[Saint_Tan]

Just rolling with Arch111's post:

Then maybe part of the missing piece is within the last snippet of the Tennocon trailer. 

We see an operator walking about in the extreme weather - a big reveal because they are traveling alone/unaided OUTSIDE of their protective pod.  (And presumable lost - and/or looking for something.)

MAYBE...

By the Nyx frame discovering that new location, causes the operator to set out on a journey to find the place "in person".

Should the Twin Queens be there/know where it is - it could be a trap to capture/kill the operator. (Ending the Tenno at the source).  "Like the answer to a Prayer".

So by Nyx 'discovering' the location - and revealing it to the operator - the trap is set.  And Teshin arrives - knowing what the Queens will/intend to do - knowing it is a death sentence to all Tenno/Operators should they be drawn there.

 

Maybe?

Edited July 11, 2016 by Saint_Tan

[SilentMobius]

26 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

The problem is not the failure to read the tone of the setting, but how the tone is shown. Lara Croft doesn't mow down children because there are no children or maps where she is using weapons among civilians. With the exception of certain parts where you can kill off an entire species, Shepard doesn't glass planets because of the greater threat to the galaxy and the story has valid reasons why Shepard is unable to do that (I.E. he Normandy is not a planet buster). To just say "You can't because the Tenno are good guys" while we are violently decimating units in the most horrific ways is pure fail on DE's part. There is less connection to why we should care about the Tenno over the average mob from any of the other main factions other than "We control them and can customize them."

And the Tenno are only presented with mission that serve the balance in the system keeping any of the warmongering sides from dominating the innocents, the Lotus is quite clear why we are doing the missions. It's the same thing, I can see it, others can see it, if you can't I think that more telling about you than DE and Warframe.

26 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

Second, "nice" use of the whole "basement-dwelling, entitled, sociopaths." Passive aggressive with insults much? It would be one thing if the Tenno had the ability to be evil but then take the high road because every other faction is already doing it, but another when we do it because we are locked into it for the fact that DE couldn't add depth to our faction other than "We are the good guys!"

I wasn't referring to you I was talking about the playerbase in general, but seeing as you seem to be sensitive about it, my apologies. 

The Tenno are demonstrably doing everything they can as an asymmetric force against threats of countless number. Again, we can see it, if you can't it says more about you than DE.

26 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

The plot already is going to be irritating once you have seen enough types of media like it to the point that you hope the cliches that are used have some emotional pull to keep you invested or a twist you have not seen before. But if the pull isn't there, then why care about the universe and the beings in it? Warframe's pull via story is lacking to say the least, with some players only playing for game reasons (E.G. Spent tons of money in the game and wanting their worth, seeing if the game gets better or worse, etc.)  and it gets annoying when lore is used to change some game play.

Oh the ennui of your storied history of fiction consumption, how can you possibly tolerate such base drivel with your refined palette.

Pffff, I'm done, talking to you is like listening to the 40k lore panel at a Games Workshop Game Day, and I'm about 25 years to old for that volume of black eyeliner.

Ah the bliss of the ignore list

Edited July 11, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Kaisty]

57 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The thing is....Kaisty, I cannot accept that your viewpoint is, uh, unbiased and objective. You refer to the Lotus always as 'Natah', like it's a personal insult, and speak with glee of your desire to murder her, over and over in multiple threads. You repeat, over and over across multiple threads, that you want to see Tenno murder civilians and casually allow colonies to be destroyed in exchange for scraps. Not, I will quite freely accept, for your own amusement, or even because you personally want to take part in virtual warcrimes.....but because you want to see your own personal headcanon validated, and that headcanon is that the Tenno are conscienceless psychopaths who would throw a million civilians into a meatgrinder in exchange for a handful of Fusion Cores.

 

So, when you say these things, you're not describing hard facts about the game. You are expressing your own personal preferences. Now, you're completely, 100% free to do that, that's fine. But, you can't really insist that it's the truth, when it's not. You can say "I would prefer the sky to be green". You can't really say "The true colour of the sky is green, and it's aggravating that my eyes lie to me and make it look blue."

I call it Natah because that is the name of the Sentient. It can change its name to whatever it feels like, but it will always be a sentient. That is like painting a Zebra brown and calling it a horse, doesn't change the fact that it is a Zebra.

Second, while seeing them murder civillians is not the main point, it is the OPTION to do so. Instead of saying the Tenno are good just because we are, prove that we as a community are good. Try to tempt the players to see if they are willing to either stick with the lore or just separate themselves from the game and just go for the items put infront of us.

My head canon is that the Tenno are are different in what they do because the players are all different in what they do. If they are all the same in what they do, why have different Tenno? Why not just make them a hive mind of puppets of something? Some see their Tenno as Saviors of the sol system, others deem themselves as mercs hunting for scraps, and some are in between but like to look stylish while they do it.

Oh and as for the Sky being blue, it is technically clear. Science folks!

13 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

And the Tenno are only presented with mission that serve the balance in the system keeping any of the warmongering sides from dominating the innocents, the Lotus is quite clear why we are doing the missions. It's the same thing, I can see it, others can see it, if you can't I think that more telling about you than DE and Warframe.

I wasn't referring to you I was talking about the playerbase in general, but seeing as you seem to be sensitive about it, my apologies. 

The Tenno are demonstrably doing everything they can as an asymmetric force against threats of countless number. Again, we can see it, if you can't it says more about you than DE.

Oh the ennui of your storied history of fiction consumption, how can you possibly tolerate such base drivel with your refined palette.

Pffff, I'm done, talking to you is like listening to the 40k lore panel at a Games Workshop Game Day, and I'm about 25 years to old for that volume of black eyeliner.

Ah the bliss of the ignore list

Love it when people get in a slight at folks and then throw them on an ignore list. IT is like they actually take offense at what is said in the forums more than the people they are ignoring. But hey, to each their own.

[arch111]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

Did you read the Kuria poem? They are Orokin who couldn't achieve good standing due to (at that time) being identical twins. And they've survived since the Orokin era (by whatever means) They might not be Executors like Ballas but they are Orokin.

Hell, from the trailer you can see that the architecture is black and red Orokin architecture and the Tenno even comments on the fact that they are surprised it's not Grineer architecture.

Yes I know the poem. I allso know the poem speak of a great power they had and that they fought against the Grineer.

That to me sounds like Lorists, bred for purpose.

They can be orokin, outcasts for their slave-visage. If it wasn't for their apparant battle against the Grineer and eventual rule of them, I would be content with them being identical twins.