DE_Steve sees the problems with the update - Chapeau.

[NeomanSeraph]

9 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

It was the hype train. its always the hype train. we knew we were going to get a mess as Steve has been stressing over it in every Dev stream for like the past 2 months. Its just a typical U update. Full of new, full of bugs. And every time the load thrown into the fan is a little too big and knocks it over and gums up the blades, we get the

And we go on. Eventually it gets straightened out even though it should not have happened to begin with. I'm pretty sure many have been asking for a test server for years now. Specially since DE scrubbed almost any mention of Beta from game texts.

Its not the worst, many things pretty questionable. Like Lottery legendary cores for money. "Hiding" the credit blueprint menu within the buying the item for plat menu. But there is a lot of quality of life things trying to be adjusted for the better.

So how should DE fall on their swords to make you happy? "Release an update without bugs"? That's impossible. And any programmer worth his salt will tell you the same thing. Especially for MMOs, where you have 10,000 people slamming the game in unexpected ways which devs have no way to predict no matter how robust their QA is.

Edited July 10, 2016 by SSNeoman

[notlamprey]

The whole mess just has me really disappointed with everyone.

With DE, with the community, with "DE's business partners"... I would ordinarily be angry, but there isn't any angry left. I'm just disappointed now.

It's good that people call an unfinished mess what it is. It's good that negative feedback happens where warranted. It's not good when people cross over from talking about the game into kicking people when they're already down.

That doesn't help get us what we want. It has been established that DE are working according to someone else's timetable now, and you people have got to understand just how soul-crushing it is to work in "crunch" mode. It sucks the humanity right out of you. It's a damn travesty.

In light of all that, I'd rather we focus on talking about the game as opposed to impugning the character or capability of our development team. They don't need that right now. They really, really don't need that right now.

If we push too hard, it will totally kill their ability to put love into this game. Maybe that's already gone. By all means, let's hold people accountable who have asked us to hold them accountable. Let's just remember that they're human beings, working under some very... potentially unpleasant conditions.

[NeomanSeraph]

I just can't help but wonder where the legit complaints (star chart-blocking bugs) begin and where the "playerbase commentary" ends. Like we had that level 9999 alert. From the get-go it was obvious you couldn't brute-force it. It obviously required you to get clever about beating it. It's a neat little puzzle which is very rewarding when you solve it.
A good portion of the online commentary has been "this is literally impossible is this the new meta!?" and I find it absurd.

Edited July 10, 2016 by SSNeoman

[Mak_Gohae]

8 minutes ago, SSNeoman said:

It's legit uncool to get newbies to hoof it to either the map chat or the forums for help because they can't access content. Especially when the last map system let them do this. That's a legitimate point and I completely agree with this. Granted he caps himself in the knee by saying "BUT YOU SEE US VETERANS ARE THE REAL VICTIMS" but I'll let it slide.

The void tear thing is legit git gud tho. It's two minutes haven't any of you done survivals worse than this? Come on now.

Would it be cool if everything was explained? Sure. It difficult to find info out? Not at all.

This update brought a lot of new content for EVERYONE. This wasnt just something new for new players. And do you know what i did? I came to the board, went to wiki, or asked a questioned. The stuff you say it's "uncool" for some reason. Why is it uncool to do some research?

When i did my first fissure it was straight up blind. I popped in with a key ( havent remembered the name of the new keys) that had items i wanted, i saw the fissure, it was clicked, random orbs dropped so i went to one to see and it was a pickup, i did and walked it back to the fissure that i notice had a percentage pop up on it.

It was a tier 3 and with a random pug. I didnt have any issues with all the enemy units being bubbly corpus, bombers, and gunners.

It wasnt Jupiter satellite science figuring out the new fissure system.

 

[Brasten]

What this really says to me is that DE needs to stop going for super large updates that change multiple game systems at once. Update 19 was so large it had to be broken up and was still too large. This isn't the first time DE has choked on fairly large updates going into a weekend.

I've also said it before, Friday updates are bad. And if its marketing that's forcing them, then something needs to change in marketing, because basically all weekend Warframe is getting a fairly bad image.

Perhaps its time to push the "update" days back to Tuesday. With an internal deadline of the prior week Friday, follow up internal polish on the Monday. Public release on the Tuesday. This would leave Wednesday to Friday for damage control, if needed. And to repeat, smaller scope updates from here on.

I'm actually not keen on War Within finishing up this July given the state of Specters of the Rails.

[Littlerift]

13 minutes ago, SSNeoman said:

So how should DE fall on their swords to make you happy? "Release an update without bugs"? That's impossible. And any programmer worth his salt will tell you the same thing. Especially for MMOs, where you have 10,000 people slamming the game in unexpected ways which devs have no way to predict no matter how robust their QA is.

 

Another strawman. Nobody is saying that they don't expect bugs when an update launches, and DE_Steve himself claimed that the QA team wasn't at fault. People are saying that the business practice of "Well we have to launch this now, even though we know it's broken, because we want to make the most X marketing opportunity" is scummy.

 

8 minutes ago, SSNeoman said:

I just can't help but wonder where the legit complaints (star chart-blocking bugs) begin and where the typical playerbase commentary ends. Like we had that level 9999 alert. From the get-go it was obvious you couldn't brute-force it. It obviously required you to get clever about beating it. It's a neat little puzzle which is very rewarding when you solve it.
A good portion of the online commentary has been "this is literally impossible is this the new meta!?" and I find it absurd.

 

- The Star Chart is pretty but no more functional that Star Chart 2.0. It's a masterclass is rubbish UI design: tonnes of wasted space, small interaction points, noisy visuals, etc.

- The market is a clustermess and seems shadily slanted toward encouraging new players to buy things with Platinum rather than credits.

- DE completely removed a system that everybody was familiar with and seemingly satisfied with with one that they hadn't even tested outside of a small testing team (Fissures and the Void).

- They introduced a clearly barely working control system for Archwing.

 

Edit: It's fairly obvious what most people are asking for: test servers.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Littlerift

[NeomanSeraph]

2 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Would it be cool if everything was explained? Sure. It difficult to find info out? Not at all.

This update brought a lot of new content for EVERYONE. This wasnt just something new for new players. And do you know what i did? I came to the board, went to wiki, or asked a questioned. The stuff you say it's "uncool" for some reason. Why is it uncool to do some research?

When i did my first fissure it was straight up blind. I popped in with a key ( havent remembered the name of the new keys) that had items i wanted, i saw the fissure, it was clicked, random orbs dropped so i went to one to see and it was a pickup, i did and walked it back to the fissure that i notice had a percentage pop up on it.

It was a tier 3 and with a random pug. I didnt have any issues with all the enemy units being bubbly corpus, bombers, and gunners.

It wasnt Jupiter satellite science figuring out the new fissure system.

 

Yes, but you are a veteran player. Pretend you're an MR0 newbie who just picked up this game on Steam and doesn't know what's going on. Pretend you get to Mars and then get walled. Now what?

[Firetempest]

1 minute ago, SSNeoman said:

So how should DE fall on their swords to make you happy? "Release an update without bugs"? That's impossible. And any programmer worth his salt will tell you the same thing. Especially for MMOs, where you have 10,000 people slamming the game in unexpected ways which devs have no way to predict no matter how robust their QA is.

Not sure why your quoting me. If it was for the small " should not have happened to begin with " comment. There are some obvious choices in design that many players said "what? why?" It not just bugs but design philosophy. Its happened time and again. And a beta server would help this. Like the first stamina changes. They do it in a vacuum and its not until its in our faces they realize it went in the wrong direction. SO I guess beta servers would be the sword for your question.

[Otaiken]

I've been with this game since early closed beta and I honestly can't recall buggier update.

That is unless you count the disconnects and not being able to play the game in the first place. That is worse in a sense I guess since you can't play at all. At least you can play now.

But the amount of bugs (once you get in the game) in this update is staggering. I think it was deliberately rushed. Some of this stuff QA must've noticed but they just didn't have time to fix it. The broken holsters? That is just blatant... everybody who had a polearm equipped noticed the moment they logged in the game. Steve pretty much admitted on reddit that this went out on a set deadline no matter the state it was in.

Over half of melee weapons is broken. Buggy junctions stop progress through starchart for new players and so on and so on...

These are massive bugs. This is bad, really bad.

I think that this update just had to come out before Tennocon no matter what... and it did. Here are the results of that.

Edited July 10, 2016 by LocoWithGun

[Monchopin]

1 hour ago, Tricky5hift said:

And what exactly did they "promise"?

a good update

[Mak_Gohae]

7 minutes ago, SSNeoman said:

Yes, but you are a veteran player. Pretend you're an MR0 newbie who just picked up this game on Steam and doesn't know what's going on. Pretend you get to Mars and then get walled. Now what?

Walled by what?

How do new players encounter a junction? Can they skip missions and get there quickly?

The requirements for the Mars junction are this.

• Defeat 150 Frontier Grineer enemies on Earth
• Sabotage 3 Toxin Injectors at E Prime
• Complete any Alert mission
• Complete quest: Once Awake

 

What exactly is confusing by what we have here?

The Toxin thing, i guess? That's the one where you need to scan plants?

Everything else is easy.

[Otaiken]

6 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Walled by what?

How do new players encounter a junction? Can they skip missions and get there quickly?

The requirements for the Mars junction are this.

• Defeat 150 Frontier Grineer enemies on Earth
• Sabotage 3 Toxin Injectors at E Prime
• Complete any Alert mission
• Complete quest: Once Awake

 

What exactly is confusing by what we have here?

The Toxin thing, i guess? That's the one where you need to scan plants?

Everything else is easy.

 

Dude, some of the junctions just don't work. They are simply broken (as of Hotfix 2). The conditions don't flag as completed no matter how many missions you do.

New players that hit those will NOT be able to progress. You think that's okay?

Btw that particular junction worked for me, but I have the quest already finished. Some quests broke and some of them are requirements for juntions.

Lastly that E Prime requirement doesn't work outside of solo play. If you don't know that as a new player and play with a friend I doubt it will make you very happy.

Edited July 10, 2016 by LocoWithGun

[Mak_Gohae]

1 minute ago, LocoWithGun said:

 

Dude, some of the junctions just don't work. They are simply broken (as of Hotfix 2).

New players that hit those will NOT be able to progress. You think that's okay?

Btw that particular junction worked for me, but I have the quest already finished. Some quests broke and some of them are requirements for juntions.

Lastly that E Prime requirement doesn't work outside of solo play. If you don't know that as a new player and play with a friend I doubt it will make you very happy.

The discussion has been about information on the game.

If the thing is bugged it's bugged. There's little to do but wait until it gets fixed.

[Otaiken]

2 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

The discussion has been about information on the game.

If the thing is bugged it's bugged. There's little to do but wait until it gets fixed.

The outrage very much needs to be there so the marketing types (that pushed this thing no doubt) will learn that the cost isn't worth it when releasing a broken update.

Edited July 10, 2016 by LocoWithGun

[NeomanSeraph]

21 minutes ago, Littlerift said:

 

Another strawman. Nobody is saying that they don't expect bugs when an update launches, and DE_Steve himself claimed that the QA team wasn't at fault. People are saying that the business practice of "Well we have to launch this now, even though we know it's broken, because we want to make the most X marketing opportunity" is scummy.

They never said this. They are just trying to fulfill a promise they made to the fanbase. Don't bring up conspiracy theories.

21 minutes ago, Littlerift said:

- The Star Chart is pretty but no more functional that Star Chart 2.0. It's a masterclass is rubbish UI design: tonnes of wasted space, small interaction points, noisy visuals, etc.

- The market is a clustermess and seems shadily slanted toward encouraging new players to buy things with Platinum rather than credits.

- DE completely removed a system that everybody was familiar with and seemingly satisfied with with one that they hadn't even tested outside of a small testing team (Fissures and the Void).

- They introduced a clearly barely working control system for Archwing.

 

Edit: It's fairly obvious what most people are asking for: test servers.

-It's UI lol that's the least of its problems.

-This is true.

-Both of which work. Seriously since when are lvl 20 nulls a problem? Nulls, conceptually, are a problem but everyone is acting like the ones spawned by the thing are the end of the world.

-I'm gonna see if I can get used to it before I pass judgement, it's really too early to say.

[Evanescent]

My problems with the update are the following:

1) Nullifiers spawning on top of you: the whole point of them having a big shiny bubble is so you can spot them coming and move away

2) Bombard spam: please don't spam Bombards, especially for the T4 missions any frame that isn't inaros get's shafted

3) Void fissure hitbox detection: Not only is the interaction with the power thingies wonky, but so is putting them into the fissure

4) Solo-unfriendly: Especially for missions like survival, there are just too many things to manage

5) Weird names: Too unforgettable to remember :(

6) Void traces drop too few :(

7) Kavat scans have a drop-chance? WHY?

8) Archwing material requirements increase: It isn't nearly popular yet to do that, DE-no-one asked for this

9) Junctions having wonky detection: sometimes it won't record my completion

10) Asking bad tasks of vets: Why do I have to rebuild a weapon I mastered and finished just to clear the junction? Waste of time and resources

11) Assignment of archwing parts: So, parts for the same weapon are spread across different opposing syndicates. ....WHY-

12) Market design is poorly done

13) Holsters are broken and cost too much. Animation  sets can be applied for all warframes and weapon grips, but holsters are for very few weapons.

14) Void has become pointless 

 

Otherwise it's nice.

[Railgun_Alter]

3 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

11) Assignment of archwing parts: So, parts for the same weapon are spread across different opposing syndicates. ....WHY-

Encourages trading, I guess?


I'd say something about Nulifiers and Fissures... but I don't wanna start a war here.

[Evanescent]

10 minutes ago, Railgun_Alter said:

Encourages trading, I guess?


I'd say something about Nulifiers and Fissures... but I don't wanna start a war here.

Forces, not encourages. Makes no sense. Different weps for different syndicates encourages.

[notlamprey]

12 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

14) Void has become pointless 

Most of your point can't really be disputed, but I actually do feel like the Void nodes can be a handy place to occasionally double up on tasks. Earlier today, there was a survival fissure - I think it was at Mot - that was reliably dumping out 5x rank 5 rare cores as a completion reward for 10 minutes survived, in addition to the fissure reward.

That felt like time efficiently spent.

As for the regular missions on those nodes, people have been asking for "challenging end-content" on the star chart over and over and over. DE may have attempted to deliver that with these level 40-45 nodes, because they do feel a little more demanding.

It's not much, I'll concede, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it pointless.

[Evanescent]

Just now, notlamprey said:

Most of your point can't really be disputed, but I actually do feel like the Void nodes can be a handy place to occasionally double up on tasks. Earlier today, there was a survival fissure - I think it was at Mot - that was reliably dumping out 5x rank 5 rare cores as a completion reward for 10 minutes survived, in addition to the fissure reward.

That felt like time efficiently spent.

As for the regular missions on those nodes, people have been asking for "challenging end-content" on the star chart over and over and over. DE may have attempted to deliver that with these level 40-45 nodes, because they do feel a little more demanding.

It's not much, I'll concede, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it pointless.

I was hoping you could farm traces or something, still have it be pertinent to the void system but not so forced.w

[Evanescent]

Now to clarify, I like the challenge of these fissures, just feel like other frames other than super tanks should have a chance too.

[notlamprey]

Just now, Evanescent said:

I was hoping you could farm traces or something, still have it be pertinent to the void system but not so forced.w

You know what, that actually might be a missed opportunity. Throwing in a small number of void traces as completion rewards for Void node missions, or even just a chance for them to drop as a rare resource there, would be welcome.

Having to use a Relic in order to get any traces at all seems... not great.

[Evanescent]

7 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

You know what, that actually might be a missed opportunity. Throwing in a small number of void traces as completion rewards for Void node missions, or even just a chance for them to drop as a rare resource there, would be welcome.

Having to use a Relic in order to get any traces at all seems... not great.

Yeah. Spend 10 keys to refine one key: that key better drop exactly what I want then.

I love the concept, but ehh...needs work. Also you have enemies like Eximi and prosecutors that have weird powers and tiny drop-tables-let them drop traces!

[DiosGX]

I'm loving this update. I hate to be "the beta guy" but hey, this game actually FEELS like a beta now. I've played plenty of them betas, and if you just adapt that mindset, you won't care.

 

I'm havin' a blast with it.

[odinal]

1 hour ago, Firetempest said:

It was the hype train. its always the hype train. we knew we were going to get a mess as Steve has been stressing over it in every Dev stream for like the past 2 months. Its just a typical U update. Full of new, full of bugs. And every time the load thrown into the fan is a little too big and knocks it over and gums up the blades, we get the

And we go on. Eventually it gets straightened out even though it should not have happened to begin with. I'm pretty sure many have been asking for a test server for years now. Specially since DE scrubbed almost any mention of Beta from game texts.

Its not the worst, many things pretty questionable. Like Lottery legendary cores for plat. "Hiding" the credit blueprint menu within the buying the item for plat menu. But there is a lot of quality of life things trying to be adjusted for the better.

If i am a new player, i will definitely think there's no credit menu available. Nice sneaky move DE