Number of Mod Slots/Capacity Needs a Rework

[PhoeniixFiire]

I was thinking about this a bit and have come to the conclusion that I usually don't use ability augments because they take a mod slot and use capacity. Watching the latest devstream, Scott and Steve said that augment mods are meant to mutate abilities, and they do, but what they generally don't do is make them as powerful as a normal mod would, so often they aren't worth the trouble. What I think is that these augment mods should have no or little capacity drain and should use a separate slot, similar to the exilus slot. It would be great to have a slot per ability, but at this point I would settle for a single slot. Many of the augment mods simply change the way an ability works and doesn't actually make it more powerful. Some do make them more powerful, but not by much. Having to choose between putting on flow and an augment mod is usually a pretty easy decision (flow), so most of my augment mods go completely unused, even though I wouldn't mind using some of them if it wouldn't require trading out something more important. What do you guys think?

Generally, I feel like the number of mod slots is too limited and that often we have to trade protection mods for mods that increase our abilities' effects, meaning that for higher level missions we are going into them with more powerful abilities, but our warframes themselves are incredibly squishy. This seems pretty unintuitive to me. Another thing that bothers me is having both a limited number of mod slots AND a limited capacity. It's incredibly frustrating to have an extra 6, 8, 10+ capacity, and have no way to use it because you're out of mod slots, even with the exilus slot being used. What this also means is that we usually have to prioritize ability mods to maximize our effect, especially if you're playing an important role like trinity for healing, nekros for desecrate, or frost for globe. So basically, there's a certain set of mods that you must put on to be effective in high level missions, and you are forced to leave out augments and other cool mods that would otherwise be interesting to use, but can't because you're expected to perform at a certain level.

What I propose is a new action option in the mod screen where we can use a certain number of forma (or maybe a new item similar to exilus adapter) to add on an extra mod slot. I don't think this new slot should have a limit as to what you can put on it, and I think you should be able to add on more than one. This would also give players a reason to use forma that they've stored up. I have so much forma and don't really have much use for it because everything I have a reactor or capacitor has extra capacity already with full mods. This addition would give me something to do with my forma that would then allow for more variety in my builds. I don't think it would be too overpowered either because we already have the ability to upgrade mods, and the ability to polarize mod slots, which has already given players a way to progress beyond the mod capacity. This would simply be, in a way, raising the level cap. Would this make higher difficulty missions easier? Sure, for those willing to put in the effort. This is a game about being a space ninja assassin superhero, it's about a power fantasy. Being able to kill things a bit faster just makes it more fun and gives players something more to work towards, without making it too easy.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Adding more mod slots will not come anytime soon I promise you that. Besides the obvious power creep response, the limited mod slots are meant to make builds have tradeoffs. You want max strength, you have to sacrifice the ability to raise aspects like range.

[Cleesus]

I feel like a right step in the direction would be to get rid of manditory mods like health or shield/damage etc and just integrate them into the gear. Would free up slots and make it easier to balance damage values.

[Doctor_Grayfield]

14 minutes ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

...Watching the latest devstream, Scott and Steve said that augment mods are meant to mutate abilities, and they do, but what they generally don't do is make them as powerful as a normal mod would, so often they aren't worth the trouble...

Preaching to the choir.

Of all my frames, I've only been able to work an augment mod into a viable (subjective of course) build with Nekros.  I don't think that's uncommon either.  I'd very much welcome an augment slot next to the exilus slot, and I don't think I'm alone.

I've seen many requests for this, but I don't recall hearing the devs speak on it in a stream.  Odds are that this won't happen any time soon, if we're lucky enough to ever get it at all.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Windspike

[PhoeniixFiire]

21 minutes ago, Windspike said:

Preaching to the choir.

Of all my frames, I've only been able to work an augment mod into a viable (subjective of course) build with Nekros.  I don't think that's uncommon either.  I'd very much welcome an augment slot next to the exilus slot, and I don't think I'm alone.

I've seen many requests for this, but I don't recall hearing the devs speak on it in a stream.  Odds are that this won't happen any time soon, if we're lucky enough to ever get it at all.

Well, there's only a chance if we make enough noise. They definitely listen, but prioritize issues that have the most backing from the community.

[FitzSimmons]

36 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Adding more mod slots will not come anytime soon I promise you that. Besides the obvious power creep response, the limited mod slots are meant to make builds have tradeoffs. You want max strength, you have to sacrifice the ability to raise aspects like range.

i want more mod slots :( exclusive for augment 

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Just now, FitzSimmons said:

i want more mod slots :( exclusive for augment 

I'm more opposed to the idea of being able to increase your slot total through means like forma. I'm personally on the fence about an augment dedicated slot.

[PhoeniixFiire]

32 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Adding more mod slots will not come anytime soon I promise you that. Besides the obvious power creep response, the limited mod slots are meant to make builds have tradeoffs. You want max strength, you have to sacrifice the ability to raise aspects like range.

I don't think power creep is an issue because reactors/catalysts, forma, exilus adapter, and even mod fusing already introduce an element of power creep. Forma enables us to put on higher ranked mods without going over capacity, but there's currently nothing that allows us to put on more mods. It's great to be able to have stronger effects, but what if I want more effects and lower ranks? There's nothing that allows that so far. The exilus slot was a step in this direction, but I think we need more. There are so many potentially cool mods out there I would love to use, but I'd never substitute them for mods that buff abilities because abilities are the way to win in this game. I really think a system like this is sorely needed. As far as tradeoffs are concerned, that's what the corrupted mods are for, and it's already possible to put on nearly all the mods to buff your abilities, so any more you could add with these new slots would only make minor differences, and gaining the new slot would be a chore. If polarizing a slot costs a forma, it could maybe cost 2 forma for these new slots, or maybe even more.

[PhoeniixFiire]

29 minutes ago, theclinton said:

I feel like a right step in the direction would be to get rid of manditory mods like health or shield/damage etc and just integrate them into the gear. Would free up slots and make it easier to balance damage values.

Integrating mods like Vitality and Redirection would make a ton of sense, and in fact, with most of my builds, I don't even use these because it would mean sacrificing a very necessary power mod. The problem is there are so many other mods I'd like to use as well, but I'll never use them because that would mean losing a better mod, and it's not going to happen.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Skill trees on our abilities....? Thatd be nice....no mods needed. Or the mods can be kept...

Trade off...forced out...limited...challenge...

Theses words hurt my face.

[PhoeniixFiire]

3 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

I'm more opposed to the idea of being able to increase your slot total through means like forma. I'm personally on the fence about an augment dedicated slot.

Could you explain why you're opposed to this? We would still have the capacity as a limiter, but it would mean, in many cases, actually being able to fully utilize our mod capacity. And since this would only affect PvE, it doesn't really matter that much if one player's warframe is better than another's, I mean, we already have that to begin with because of reactors/catalysts/forma/mod leveling/etc. This would just be raising the cap while allowing for more flexibility and diversity to our builds.

[corrosivePaladin]

no.

skilltrees. you mean focus?

[Omega-Shadowblade]

1 minute ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

Could you explain why you're opposed to this? We would still have the capacity as a limiter, but it would mean, in many cases, actually being able to fully utilize our mod capacity. And since this would only affect PvE, it doesn't really matter that much if one player's warframe is better than another's, I mean, we already have that to begin with because of reactors/catalysts/forma/mod leveling/etc. This would just be raising the cap while allowing for more flexibility and diversity to our builds.

People still shoehorn themselves into specific builds with forma and if taken far enough would still have plenty of capacity for a few more mods, but if only a certain build will fit right, is it flexible?. Also that PVE argument sounds a lot like the argument that PVE doesn't need balancing. Frankly, we are lucky enough to have our full 8 slots and abilities. I remember when abilities themselves were mods.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1 minute ago, corporatePaladin said:

no.

skilltrees. you mean focus?

Me?

[CrudShuzKong]

As always when these threads appear:

Make Augments exilus compatible. Most of them have trouble competing with normal mods in usefulness, but in comparison to exilus a lot of them might make it. (also sweet exilus adapter sales).

Some mods are definitely not balanced between their capacity cost and actual usefulness though, that might be a good thing to adress too.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

6 minutes ago, corporatePaladin said:

no.

skilltrees. you mean focus?

Interesting fact, in early development this game apparently used skill trees.

[PhoeniixFiire]

18 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

People still shoehorn themselves into specific builds with forma and if taken far enough would still have plenty of capacity for a few more mods, but if only a certain build will fit right, is it flexible?. Also that PVE argument sounds a lot like the argument that PVE doesn't need balancing. Frankly, we are lucky enough to have our full 8 slots and abilities. I remember when abilities themselves were mods.

Yes, I am happy we have 8 slots and not less, but similar to the need for an exilus slot, I think we could use more mod slots in general. We have the system in place to polarize slots, but eventually it doesn't make sense to polarize more slots because 1) it limits the possible builds due to polarity mismatch, and 2) you end up with excess capacity and don't have anything you can use with it. If I have extra capacity, why can't I use it? It's like having extra space in your backpack and stuff you want to fit there, but you can't because you've been told you can only have a certain number of items, regardless of how necessary or useful those items are. For instance, you could put in 8 different types of candy bars, and those would count as your 8 items, but then you aren't allowed to put in a water bottle, even though you have plenty of room and your backpack is still plenty light. I think being able to put on more slots while leaving the capacity unchanged, or maybe with a slight adjustment, makes perfect sense with what we already have and wouldn't be too huge a boost in power.

[Roachester]

1 minute ago, CrudShuzKong said:

As always when these threads appear:

Make Augments exilus compatible. Most of them have trouble competing with normal mods in usefulness, but in comparison to exilus a lot of them might make it. (also sweet exilus adapter sales).

Some mods are definitely not balanced between their capacity cost and actual usefulness though, that might be a good thing to adress too.

Gonna go with this right here.

Also gonna have to say no to the idea of increasing mod slots. We have a limited number of them for a reason, and being given the ability to break that limit would effectively destroy what little semblance of proper balance this game has left. If you want to build for power, you sacrifice survivability and mobility. Build for survivability, you sacrifice power and mobility. Build for mobility, and you get the rest. Of course, you could always build for a combination of those three things; you won't be as powerful as the min-maxers, but having a jack-of-all-trades build comes with its own set of benefits.

Allowing people to increase their mod slots through any means whatsoever is just asking for disaster. People will find any and every way to completely break whatever game they're playing, so despite Warframe being a game that prides itself on diversity, it's important that the developers maintain a hard limit on just how much freedom we have.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Just now, PhoeniixFiire said:

 I think being able to put on more slots while leaving the capacity unchanged, or maybe with a slight adjustment, makes perfect sense with what we already have and wouldn't be too huge a boost in power.

Would you be willing to do the math on additional mod configurations to back up that statement? Not trying to be rude, just curious.

[Arkvold]

Personally, I'd love to have two extra slots on my Nekros, dedicated solely to augment mods so that I could use Shield of Shadows and Despoil and include some more mitigation, like Health Conversion and Quick Thinking.

Realistically, I'm pretty sure it'd never happen, due to concerns of balance and power creep.

[Dumfing]

With 6 Forma you can put on 8 mods that require 15 capacity (that normally wouldn't be allowed to be put together) as well as a drift mod in the exilus slot

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ash_Prime/t_30_4244222220_3-8-5-57-3-5-568-0-5-572-1-3-578-6-5-611-9-5-673-4-5-675-7-5-726-5-5-727-2-5_568-8-572-8-727-8-57-8-673-8-726-8-578-8-675-8-3-18-611-9_0/en/1-0-37/

[Omega-Shadowblade]

2 minutes ago, Dumfing said:

With 6 Forma you can put on 8 mods that require 15 capacity (that normally wouldn't be allowed to be put together) as well as a drift mod in the exilus slot

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ash_Prime/t_30_4244222220_3-8-5-57-3-5-568-0-5-572-1-3-578-6-5-611-9-5-673-4-5-675-7-5-726-5-5-727-2-5_568-8-572-8-727-8-57-8-673-8-726-8-578-8-675-8-3-18-611-9_0/en/1-0-37/

Yeah all the most expensive mods in the game, and eximus. Even if you used any other aura with a proper symbol. It still would have 1 left over. That's impressive.

[PhoeniixFiire]

18 minutes ago, Roachester said:

Gonna go with this right here.

Also gonna have to say no to the idea of increasing mod slots. We have a limited number of them for a reason, and being given the ability to break that limit would effectively destroy what little semblance of proper balance this game has left. If you want to build for power, you sacrifice survivability and mobility. Build for survivability, you sacrifice power and mobility. Build for mobility, and you get the rest. Of course, you could always build for a combination of those three things; you won't be as powerful as the min-maxers, but having a jack-of-all-trades build comes with its own set of benefits.

Allowing people to increase their mod slots through any means whatsoever is just asking for disaster. People will find any and every way to completely break whatever game they're playing, so despite Warframe being a game that prides itself on diversity, it's important that the developers maintain a hard limit on just how much freedom we have.

The mod capacity IS the hard limit. This wouldn't allow anyone to "break" the game, it's just allowing us to "level up" a little bit more with the extra capacity we have. The limit would still be that mod capacity and however much we decide to polarize slots. I fail to see how giving everyone this ability would somehow break the balance. This is basically the same idea as the exilus adapter, but taking it to another level. It's painful to see that extra mod capacity sitting there and me having absolutely no reasonable way to make use of it. There are so many mods that are simply required to be of any use in the game, and once all those are on, you have little to no room for anything else of note, so the lesser mods just sit there collecting dust, only to be used momentarily by new players until they learn and get better mods.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Mods need an entire rework. As it is now, it's a progression template not a customization system.

Damage mods need to go.

Every mod needs a trade-off.

Random critical hits are archaic and need to be changed. There's no point in random crits when the entire modding scene is dedicated to making them NOT random (red crit). Then it's just free damage. At least make it based off of headshots/finishers.

Status is bland and boring, and elements are valued for their damage rather than effects. That should change.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

1 minute ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

The mod capacity IS the hard limit. This wouldn't allow anyone to "break" the game, it's just allowing us to "level up" a little bit more with the extra capacity we have. The limit would still be that mod capacity and however much we decide to polarize slots. I fail to see how giving everyone this ability would somehow break the balance. This is basically the same idea as the exilus adapter, but taking it to another level. It's painful to see that extra mod capacity sitting there and me having absolutely no reasonable way to make use of it. There are so many mods that are simply required to be of any use in the game, and once all those are on, you have little to no room for anything else of note, so the lesser mods just sit there collecting dust, only to be used momentarily by new players until they learn and get better mods.

Exilus has minor useful effects at best. With extra general mod slots, It is possible to ignore drawbacks of some mods and even surpass. I.e. Allowing the range of Overextended, With a still immense amount of power strength.