New Void is still boring

[BPNPC]

Void corruption is a gimmick that adds nothing to gameplay. I ran a couple of the new Void missions, and in each case they played out EXACTLY like the missions we've done a million times before. Void-corrupted enemies sound cool but the buffs are negligible even at Axi tier, and you slaughter them like you slaughter everything else. "Collect the reactant" similarly is boring, and again, you're literally doing exactly what you would be doing in a regular mission (killing enemies and running around). The only thing reactant-collecting does is prolong trivial missions like Capture and Sabotage.

I will be fair and say that this new Void is better than "close-the-fissure" Void, but that is an extremely low bar.

Just to be clear: I am NOT talking about the relic or trace grind. Level of grind wouldn't matter if missions were fun to play. The new Void is not fun to play.

[armedpoop]

Strange to think that this was how they went about decreasing "void fatigue". This just moves that "fatigue" to main mission types. This pretty much effectively just removed the reason to go to the void. (which may be good or bad depending on how long you been playing)

[PoopManZ]

I think the main problem is that between combat, visual reward and progression and challenge, Warframe gets really stale in a much shorter period of time than other MMOs with the way they interact in this current state. Once you are at the experienced player flash-point, all of the awe and flashy mechanics of the game becomes trivial, its really hollow and you are just running a treadmill for either MR (and by default gear grind, which leads to another core issue with MR) or looks. If the only thing that offers game-play longevity to people is infinite challenges with messed up stat sloping, thats a huge red flag in the game. Void has lost its point, and we are still stuck with the problem with Veterans being disengaged from fun with the game other than running either of the two hamster wheels. The only point of the Void being endgame (and the Void being the ONLY non-raiding endgame) was that it had prime parts and it offered high scale endless mode, thats pretty terrible in a design&balance perspective. SOTR did try to address making the regular starchart engaging again with Ceph frags and other things, but there is a long long way to go to put more "game" in the veteran period of player lifespan. Ceph frags dont provide longevity and the Junctions are a complete joke to people who are geared to the teeth already. The alarm system is a complete joke outside of being a time sink if its a lockdown alarm and other vanilla mechanics that have been forgotten. Despite all of DE's renewals and reinnovation, I can say only a little bit has moved forward on the actual end of content-mass:reward:fun ratio for experienced players.

The Focus System was supposed to be one of the answers to that, but the fact its tied to one ability with a huge cooldown ruins most of the progression reward feedback for the player and there is no mission whose challenge truly justifies the insane boons two of the Focus paths offers (its too delayed and unreliable for you to feel great you spent time on it, and 2 tree passives overshadow the entire system). This is a huge issue for a game centering itself on being an MMO to continue to be sustainable overall, it puts a huge demand on the developers to keep throwing out updates (ooo shiny) to bring burnt out people back in (and in turn having to go back and reinnovate what ever they threw out at a later date) instead of constructively building up expansions. This did not work out for Firefall at all (but to be fair, they remade the ENTIRE game multiple times). The fact the War Within Update Package release timing got bungled is indicative of this really growing unrealistic demand on the devs to keep pumping out updates for the sole purpose of updating to be flashy to draw older players back in (and to keep paying for plat and PAs). Over the long term, you burn out your design team, your art team, and your dev team, you end up with a shallow product and thats really really bad. You can get to the point where it may be inefficient to hunker down and go Bob the Builder on core aspects of gameplay as the shift in team focus may effect immediate quarterly earnings (See Evolve and Turtle Rock Studios, where it took to the point of their player base decaying so bad they literally had to drop out of the radar to completely fix their game). I can't believe it took DE having to rush out a completely broken update to adjust to an update focus that is better for long term health (although temporary), and that is to address the problems of what ever you reworked immediately instead of shifting to another different subject again (and potentially (I would say always at this point) having to readdress that at a later date too, which is the theme of every 2.0/3.0/whatever.0 update we had) and have the players stuck with a hollow unfinished idea for months.

 

Considerable resources have been spent in making really imaginative enemy types that can actually make all mission types challenging if they were intelligently grouped together in fireteams. But instead we get huge zombie swarms of no-brainer units, get spammed with units that are just very annoying in huge swathes for the guise of challenge instead of sprinkled intelligently (Nullifiers and Bombards), or be so irrelevant in spawn that they might as well not exist to engage the player in the first place (Manics, Combas, Bursas, etc.). Not to mention the Dynasty Warrior-esque gameplay does not offer long-term replay-ability, but is only good in short-term bursts since you are overwhelming/oversaturating the player in the combat gameplay.  Some of the tactical alert combos were interesting, and can be incoporated into the alarm system. For example, if one of the alarm results was to make the Grineer ship darken in lighting and start spewing out only Manics, that would be an awesome OH @$@$ moment that can provide excitement in normal missions. Also it would fit with the idea that the enemy is actively trying to stop you with what they have if you are detected in a logical sense. The blandness of the majority of the tilesets also plays into the stale factor, none of the maps truly synergize with unit types and take advantage of them. We have units like Grineer Ballistas idiotically charging around as if they are main infantry instead of taking a distant vertical advantage and grouping up (you know like how actual sniper teams work), almost every single map is completely planar in a combat perspective and just have decor to look nice so this approach would be impossible anyway (the close quarter planar maps by the way ruin the entire sniper weapon type).  All of the above improvements would add in a different kind of scale that can be adjusted as the player progresses where you can start throwing in more complicated hazards/tilesets, enemy formations and alarms when the player is expected to be more developed in equipment and skill, and validate the entire point of Mastery Rank Tests. The Rank Tests by the way, being the most creative use of mission creation and unit use, but are relegated to one-off missions. With the game's emphasis on parkouring and ninjaing, I find it ridiculous it has been years and we still don't have all parkour-dedicated/dominating missions and tile-sets(like being the operative that recovers the goodies for the Survival mission Tenno) instead of just murderbash. Again being relegated to extremely minor one-off experiences (spy missions are barely parkour, and more like avoiding the most boring placed laser walls, turn on cloak power and hack, other parkour cells in tilesets are pointless unless you still need the Moon Exilus Mods) in missions. Only Moon Spy missions offer a more Mirror's Edge experience but are still stuck to single vaults of a mission instead of being a whole fluid mission progression. Everyone would have so much fun and break from tedium if we had a whole-spread of missions which from start to extraction had the ingenuity and fluidity of a moon vault, and if it had proper rewards you would have people become Parkour mission junkies instead (this would also promote different ways of mod builds) The only unique-ish boss fights are Lephantis, Tyl Regor, Vay Hek (the three being multi-stage fights) and De Thayn, all of which end up somehow being excessively repetitive and lack reward (Lephantis is hilariously unrewarding, youd find Regor boring after farming him 3000 Quintillion times for Equinox, Vay Hek is just a gigantic bullet sponge head for most of his fight, and De Thayn requires you to spam one mode type again and again to even get to fight her once, and then makes you burnt out on the ONLY MODE THAT USES UNITS INTELLIGENTLY). Imagine if a boss was an intelligent multi stage that centered on parkour mobility to expose weakpoints and progress the fight instead of just unloading your ammo into it (or one shot it as a vet) and have the reward scaling not ruin the uniqueness of it, or instead have a boss chase mode where you need to parkour to not lose track of him, sorta like capture but not have it be so brain dead (also capture needs to be turned into a parkour mission as well, the current speedrush and extract is stupid).  There are plenty of things in the base game that can be utilized to have a more diverse experience that can tie in rewards. Theres a reason I am a founder but I am only MR 12 because I really don't want to burn myself out on Warframe with the lack of rewarding longevity and the lack of reward for doing different things in the game instead of running meatlockers. 

Edited July 27, 2016 by PoopManZ

[_enon]

3 minutes ago, PoopManZ said:

The only point of the Void being endgame was that it had prime parts and it offered high scale endless mode, thats pretty terrible. 

Only prime parts, actually. 

Endless missions are everywhere, it just depends on how much time you want to spend on them to become 'endgame'

Prime parts were the carrot on the other end of the stick, which are useful for the other endgame, which is trade chat.

[PoopManZ]

Just now, thalx said:

Only prime parts, actually. 

Endless missions are everywhere, it just depends on how much time you want to spend on them to become 'endgame'

Prime parts were the carrot on the other end of the stick, which are useful for the other endgame, which is trade chat.

T4 Survival offered the fastest way and an ego check anyways. And if we should treat trading as some sort of endgame, EVE is much more enjoyable and actually physically engages trade in gameplay.

[BlazerEraser]

Are you implying that Old Void was not boring?

[BPNPC]

6 minutes ago, PoopManZ said:

I think the main problem is that between combat, visual reward and progression and challenge gets really stale in a much shorter period of time than other MMOs. Once you are at the point all of the awe and flashy mechanics of the game becomes trivial, its really hollow and you are just running a treadmill for either MR (and by default gear grind, which leads to another core issue with MR) or looks. If the only thing that offers game-play longevity to people is infinite challenges with messed up stat sloping, thats a huge red flag in the game. Void has lost its point, and we are still stuck with the problem with Veterans being disengaged from fun with the game other than running either of the two hamster wheels. The only point of the Void being endgame (and the Void being the ONLY non-raiding endgame) was that it had prime parts and it offered high scale endless mode, thats pretty terrible. 

This. The staleness of new Void is a symptom of Warframe's larger problem: the complete lack of difficulty.

I honestly don't know why I expected more from this rework when DE stated beforehand exactly how poor it was going to be on devstream.

[Edge_Hog]

I'll say what I always say.

Nothing improves through complaints that don't offer support to the update.

If you do not enjoy something, then suggest an idea that can make it more enjoyable and explain how. It's getting annoying seeing users who just complain their heads off and can't even offer support to the changes, because DE isn't going back to the "Old Void" so please suggest new ideas, not complain constantly.

[BPNPC]

13 minutes ago, BlazerEraser said:

Are you implying that Old Void was not boring?

It was boring, but I thought the entire point of the rework was to, you know, make it less boring. And arguably new Void is even worse than old Void because you could go longer than 5 minutes.

6 minutes ago, Edge_Hog said:

I'll say what I always say.

Nothing improves through complaints that don't offer support to the update.

If you do not enjoy something, then suggest an idea that can make it more enjoyable and explain how. It's getting annoying seeing users who just complain their heads off and can't even offer support to the changes, because DE isn't going back to the "Old Void" so please suggest new ideas, not complain constantly.

I've already made several suggestions in the suggestions subforum about how to make missions more difficult, more fun, and more rewarding. That's not the point of this thread. Pointing out flaws constitutes constructive criticism as long as reasons are given to back them up.

Example of pure complaining:

"wow this rework sucks thanks DE"

Example of constructive criticism:

"wow this rework sucks because Void corruption and reactant collecting are gimmicks that changes nothing about the gameplay, and even in high-tier fissures the corruption buff is still too easy."

[PoopManZ]

40 minutes ago, BPNPC said:

This. The staleness of new Void is a symptom of Warframe's larger problem: the complete lack of difficulty.

I honestly don't know why I expected more from this rework when DE stated beforehand exactly how poor it was going to be on devstream.

I would say the major problem is the blueprint of how a mission plays out is really stale. Imagine a D&D GM who is really really really un-creative, thats the overall enemy&hazard layout we get in regular missions throughout the whole game. Sorties are just Regular Missions: Random Condition and Buffed Armor Edition. Again another potential for having a different mode have completely different ways of the mission playing out being wasted. In terms of how enemy progression to player level should work out, what we have now should be what newbies get at Earth and Mars, it shouldn't be the same the entire star chart. Otherwise the planets are nothing more than huge signs that say LEVEL ##-## ENEMIES SPAWN HERE and a resource drop list.  The whole idea of Uranus's qualities playing into the uniqueness of the Unit types, missions and unique encounters should be expanded upon to a deeper level and to the entire star chart.

Edited July 26, 2016 by PoopManZ

[_enon]

2 minutes ago, BPNPC said:

Example of pure complaining:

"wow this rework sucks thanks DE"

Example of constructive criticism:

"wow this rework sucks because Void corruption and reactant collecting are gimmicks that changes nothing about the gameplay, and even in high-tier fissures the corruption buff is still too easy."

Err. The second example is just a longer complaint.

[Grinerslayer]

battle royale =*)   add friend kill !!!!!! haha

[PoopManZ]

Just now, grinerslayer said:

battle royale =*)   add friend kill !!!!!! haha

That already exists in the Radiation proc and offers 0 in engagement but 100 in frustration in the way its used in missions now. 

[Master-Nachash]

What I think people need to remember is the fact that Warframe is a work-in-progress. And as DE have stated over time and more recently, quite often in direct relation to the recent updates, the changes being made are gradual and will come together over time and will make more sense over time.

The issues with the void will be addressed when the other issues DE considers more pressing are dealt with first.

Be patient Tenno. Things are changing gradually, for the better.

[Aurea_Hiigara]

31 minutes ago, thalx said:

Err. The second example is just a longer complaint.

No, the second part explains (albeit in a bad way, granted) what it is he doesn't find fun, thus giving DE a place to start looking at changes. The first example was simply that the rework wasn't fun with no further information. So ... what, roll back to Hotfix 12 and try again?

[HIGHDAMAGE]

56 minutes ago, BlazerEraser said:

Are you implying that Old Void was not boring?

at least it was a special place to get prime parts wich should belong to the void imo thats my idea

Edited July 26, 2016 by HIGHDAMAGE

[Grimlock84]

3 minutes ago, HIGHDAMAGE said:

at least it was a special place to get prime parts

or that it had good rewards.

what counts as a reward for the majority of endless missions is a joke nowadays that there isnt even a point in going past the first b rotation for most of em

[Luneth]

I'll take this over 20, 40, or even 60+ minutes of boring survival.

[Nlim]

1 hour ago, BPNPC said:

Void corruption is a gimmick that adds nothing to gameplay. I ran a couple of the new Void missions, and in each case they played out EXACTLY like the missions we've done a million times before. Void-corrupted enemies sound cool but the buffs are negligible even at Axi tier, and you slaughter them like you slaughter everything else. "Collect the reactant" similarly is boring, and again, you're literally doing exactly what you would be doing in a regular mission (killing enemies and running around). The only thing reactant-collecting does is prolong trivial missions like Capture and Sabotage.

The goal was to make more missions and enemy factions availiable for void farming and not force you into the same misson anymore if you are looking for a specific part. The goal wasn´t to reinvent how basic gameplay works - this isn´t really something which can just be changed in one or two updates without being a major focus.

From my perspective the question is if the new system is better than the old void gameplay wise and with todays Update I would say almost - being able to play with more factions on more maps with more mission types is a big plus in my book, only thing I miss from the old system is a reason to go on longer endless runs. Relics mostly encourages to finish a mission as soon as the fissure is closed which kind of normalized the mission length to a fairly short one - there aren´t many choices now if one wants to go for longer runs (outside maybe relic farming).

If they mange to make both longer and shorter runs viable rewards/time wise than I would call the system a great success.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Nlim

[Mak_Gohae]

called it

 

[ashrah]

void is been big part of game... now game is even more boring.....i am not fun to play starchart for terrible rewards....and all mess they bring...i dont kow what devs have in plan but this direction is very wrong....i am played  a lot games i mean lot i have at home collection over 1500 games+ steam games i play.....future of game is not bright with all this drastic changes in bad direction....game lack on content a lot...

[Kaotyke]

23 minutes ago, Aurea_Hiigara said:

No, the second part explains (albeit in a bad way, granted) what it is he doesn't find fun, thus giving DE a place to start looking at changes. The first example was simply that the rework wasn't fun with no further information. So ... what, roll back to Hotfix 12 and try again?

No, I believe this one is a step forward from what it was before: We can continue to do our missions without taking a detour and standing in 1 place, then going back to the mission, it has progression.

I will admit, this update had upsides and downsides.

The upside is that we can just run the mission as normal do and get rewarded in the process.

The downside is that it doesnt add to the gameplay, only gimmicks and stronger enemies. Not the type that makes you wary of getting hit like a Level 100 Napalm, but its up there. I just did a Neo Fissure MD in the Void and for the first time in months, I had the whole team downed.

[Deatherage_]

Op This sounds like a real personal problem because at the end of the day i think this is better than the extraction minigame regardless of how much this is like void 1.0. It still is atleast giving us the honor of corrupted Bursas and corrupted Maniacs so i am loving that aspect.

 

Also the good thing about this void is we get to upgrade relics so we HAVE A BETTER CHANCE FOR GOOD LOOT

so in conclusion put a sock in it OP, the new void fissure system has not even been out for a full day so why so quick to bash it?

[arch111]

I feel utterly lost, bewildered and confused. You see, I have not played the new Update at all.

I have looked at the new star chart and the new store. Both were an improvement.

But the bugs of sotr passed me by, the angry posts told me plenty though, and the old Void now being more or less useless,  and the void-tears being not all that great - all of this feels like a new game but at the same time it feels like the exact same thing.

For new players this must be superconfusing, not to mention the Void not being a cool otherworld where the Primes are -is no more. 

I may be one of the few, but I really liked the Void.  I wanted it to evolve and grow, not the opposite.

You can say I am a bit worried about playing again. I am worried I won't like warframe as much as I used to. And that would really suck.

[ArchPhaeton]

Of course if you play something 20 hours a day you'll eventually get absolutely bored of it regardless of what the devs put or not in the game.

I'm saying this as an 3k+h veteran that finds most of the recent changes to be headed in the right direction, and while I play often I don't do it as obessively as before because I felt the boredom as well. It will happen with any game and anything really.