I changed my mind about outright hating Nullifiers

[Revenant0713]

So we've all seen the thread by now. And frankly, I still understand why we hate nullifiers. But this is my opinion on why I feel like the hate is slightly overdone...

Pros vs Cons:

How does it affect my choice of frame?

 

+Melee frames actually have a purpose in going up to enemies' faces rather than sit back and feel useless because of allied powerhouses.

-The new nullifier is downright stupid in endless missions where half the map is comprised of power dead-zones, rendering the first point moot as everyone feels useless.

 

How does it affect the way I play?

 

+Solo runs now have a stealth element to it because of the serious threat that nullifiers pose. Enemy radar range is now a viable option more than ever. Mastery 9 Rank Up test has a point and purpose now.

-DE offered this change without any accompanying guidance or statement on how it makes the game "better." Parties haven't caught on yet and still try to rambo everything only to direct their anger toward the new enemy design.

 

How does it affect my weapon set?

 

+Non-meta guns have gotten a bit of attention for their ability to pop the bubbles. Bullet hoses in particular that weren't all that "go-to" seem particularly effective. Azima and Dex Furis, for example. Gas grenade Azima also seems to be an effective build, which makes gas feel useful for once. Mods like Hush are now extremely useful.

-Snipers are the only non-meta weapon that didn't benefit from this. Also shotguns still suffer from the damage cap.

 

Are debuffs useless now?

 

+Frames and weapons with generic status effects such as gas, toxin, and radiation will not have the effects dispelled once the affected unit enters the area. Nyx's Chaos counts as a radiation Confusion proc, just with alternate special effects, and so affected units retain the turn on the nullifier and retain the debuff even when inside the bubble. High status, low-priority weapons such as the Daikyu and Silva & Aegis can be useful for proc spreading.

-Warframe buffs and debuffs with unique effects become harder to use once the mob density of nullifiers reach a certain point. Frames hit hardest are Limbo (My favorite frame), Frosts who rely on stationary gameplay with ice globe, and Magnetize-centered Mags. And the pro is rather outweighed by how bad this con makes these builds feel, as Magnetize Mags for example, are usually forma'd somewhat differently to Mags that focus on replenishing shields to increase survivability while also bullethosing the bubbles down. It basically means less customization options for those who forma'd one way (not sure if I was being clear there, but I'll assume the community is smart enough not to need a spoonfed explanation).

 

Conclusion Wall of Text

 

So overall, I still find the nullifiers need a few tweaks. I'm not exactly happy with how they sit at the moment. For example, I loved how the old interaction between Nullifiers and Cataclysm worked, making the Limbo player think hard about the safety margin his ult can provide the team. Now it's just "Is there a nullifier nearby? Well nope. can't ult here."

However, I'm not entirely hating it either. I do enjoy the four-man organized stealth takedowns I've had lately. Picking off targets left and right with your squad, inching closer to the reactor core... Looking at the design of the frames, you can tell they want us to NOT go in with a Gatling gun (Or Gorgon, as that's the closest we have at the moment) blazing. There's a time for that, sure... but the gratification of completing a round completely ninja style is something we overlook. They've repeatedly given us incentive for stealth: Spy mission security improvements, stealth kill affinity bonuses, a new semi-spy version of gameplay with sabotage last year... what did we do? Cheese data vaults with Ivara and Limbo, Cheese level weapons with Loki, completely ignore the fact we can cryofreeze or magnetize the reactor and just break the coolant so we have an excuse to keep our guns out.

We've always done the easy route. That's not ninja, guys. I remember the posters of Warframe first had the tagline: Ninjas play free. I sincerely doubt DE wanted Warframe to be a fast-paced shooter that we love and hate. The player base turned it into that by developing a meta.

And yes, "If DE didn't want us to do so, then they should have designed it better." That is very true. But as it stands, how much of the community actually has a say in the development team's decisions? How many of the potentially good feedback threads actually get bumped and taken into account, not just by DE, but by fellow players?

The way I see it, this change is a pretty big one that demands big solutions. I agree with the statement that we "have ther esponsibility to do what we can to stop the game going down a path the player base doesn't want." Beyond the forums however, we have very little chance of improving this feature not just because of DE's perceived inability to listen to us, but also because the community is extremely divided and can't really agree what change is good. A part of the population will always disagree. I believe that it should be DE's responsibility to make sure we enjoy their product. In game however, we have every opportunity to not let the change kill the fun we play the game for.

Yes, it's hard. And it's annoying. But it's something the Tenno should be able to think around.

PS.

 

DE, PLEASE MAKE GUNS WITH HUSH ON THEM ACTULLY SOUND SUPPRESSED.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Revenant0713

[Brizmuth]

The Russian nesting doll of feedback!

Jokes aside I think that the people who hate them, and I mean really hate them fail to understand their purpose. The games not suppose to be easy. Nulifiers are suppose to act as a strategic road block that you have to figure out how to deal with. Its so much more than just a damage blocker. You cant just instantly pop it, you either have to take the risk and dive inside to take the enemy out or throw everything your weapon has to break the field. You cant just cheese missions with Ash ults or stay hurdled in a Frost bubble with them around. They actually add some agency to some missions that would just have a standard "kill all the boring mobs" feel to them.

[Jangkrik]

1 minute ago, Brizmuth said:

The Russian nesting doll of feedback!

Jokes aside I think that the people who hate them, and I mean really hate them fail to understand their purpose. The games not suppose to be easy. Nulifiers are suppose to act as a strategic road block that you have to figure out how to deal with. Its so much more than just a damage blocker. You cant just instantly pop it, you either have to take the risk and dive inside to take the enemy out or throw everything your weapon has to break the field. You cant just cheese missions with Ash ults or stay hurdled in a Frost bubble with them around. They actually add some agency to some missions that would just have a standard "kill all the boring mobs" feel to them.

That's the good part of Nullifiers. Sure, they're perfect when you fill the bubbles with normal enemies (and probably a few eximus units). They actually present a challenge.

But

Not if you fill their bubbles with arctic eximus snow globe, tons of heavies with ground slam, stack their globes, and then mix them with extra eximus (plus Sapping Ospreys and Bursa in Corpus missions). They are actually op that way. There's almost no way to counter them when they do this.

Rapid fire? Shame, they have a snow globe inside and you burn through your ammo. Melee? Suicide cause of god knows how many knockdown spams and AoE attacks are in there (don't forget the Sapping Ospreys too). Sniping? Nullifier bubbles negate high damage weapons for unknown reasons. Powers? Disabled. Coordinated attacks? You don't have that much time to plan for those at late game since you're dead if you take off your concentration for a bit.

[NeithanDiniem]

2 hours ago, Jangkrik said:

That's the good part of Nullifiers. Sure, they're perfect when you fill the bubbles with normal enemies (and probably a few eximus units). They actually present a challenge.

But

Not if you fill their bubbles with arctic eximus snow globe, tons of heavies with ground slam, stack their globes, and then mix them with extra eximus (plus Sapping Ospreys and Bursa in Corpus missions). They are actually op that way. There's almost no way to counter them when they do this.

Rapid fire? Shame, they have a snow globe inside and you burn through your ammo. Melee? Suicide cause of god knows how many knockdown spams and AoE attacks are in there (don't forget the Sapping Ospreys too). Sniping? Nullifier bubbles negate high damage weapons for unknown reasons. Powers? Disabled. Coordinated attacks? You don't have that much time to plan for those at late game since you're dead if you take off your concentration for a bit.

In situations like this I still have had absolutely no problem with melee with nulls. I still cannot see how it is as bad of a problem as people say. As for why bubbles dont account for high damage shots, most players in situations like you described would normally be using one of the meta stupidly high powered guns anyways and thus letting them simply oneshot the null with a gun does nothing to stop them or even hinder them.

Edited July 30, 2016 by NeithanDiniem

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

z

 

Edited July 30, 2016 by ShadowExodus

[artemisfortune]

Well put and well written. Nice to see someone put quality thought into their feedback. Kudos and amazing post.

I absolutely agree with everything you've said.

Edited July 30, 2016 by JSharpie

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

10 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

That's the good part of Nullifiers. Sure, they're perfect when you fill the bubbles with normal enemies (and probably a few eximus units). They actually present a challenge.

But

Not if you fill their bubbles with arctic eximus snow globe, tons of heavies with ground slam, stack their globes, and then mix them with extra eximus (plus Sapping Ospreys and Bursa in Corpus missions). They are actually op that way. There's almost no way to counter them when they do this.

Rapid fire? Shame, they have a snow globe inside and you burn through your ammo. Melee? Suicide cause of god knows how many knockdown spams and AoE attacks are in there (don't forget the Sapping Ospreys too). Sniping? Nullifier bubbles negate high damage weapons for unknown reasons. Powers? Disabled. Coordinated attacks? You don't have that much time to plan for those at late game since you're dead if you take off your concentration for a bit.

Have you ever tried jumping and doing a ground slam attack and if not, gliding and shooting as you pas through the bubble. If all else fails handspring will save the day

 

[artemisfortune]

1 hour ago, Jangkrik said:

-snapwoopstypoimeansnip-

@ShadowExodus makes a good point. Yes in that what I've seen to be very rare set of circumstances it would be difficult to kill those enemies, but certainly not impossible.

[Brizmuth]

17 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

That's the good part of Nullifiers. Sure, they're perfect when you fill the bubbles with normal enemies (and probably a few eximus units). They actually present a challenge.

But

Not if you fill their bubbles with arctic eximus snow globe, tons of heavies with ground slam, stack their globes, and then mix them with extra eximus (plus Sapping Ospreys and Bursa in Corpus missions). They are actually op that way. There's almost no way to counter them when they do this.

Rapid fire? Shame, they have a snow globe inside and you burn through your ammo. Melee? Suicide cause of god knows how many knockdown spams and AoE attacks are in there (don't forget the Sapping Ospreys too). Sniping? Nullifier bubbles negate high damage weapons for unknown reasons. Powers? Disabled. Coordinated attacks? You don't have that much time to plan for those at late game since you're dead if you take off your concentration for a bit.

Jesus man, you just fit all the poor enemies in the map in that Nulifier's globe. They must be so cramped in there.

Seriously, that situation is overexagerated. The most obnoxious enemies in the game dont just suddenly spawn in a nulifiers bubble like they're out to ruin the game for you and the situation your presented has such a rare chance of happening naturally outside of eximus stronghold missions.

When you bring a semi auto weapon with you, you need to bring a full-auto to pop nullifies if you know you're going to face Nulifiers. Or if you know your'e going to face Nullifier's don't bring snipers. Its like knowing what you're up against so you can bring the proper elemental mods. Come prepared and Nulifiers wont be such a problem for you.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Brizmuth

[Vox_Preliator]

43 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

That's the good part of Nullifiers. Sure, they're perfect when you fill the bubbles with normal enemies (and probably a few eximus units). They actually present a challenge.

But

Not if you fill their bubbles with arctic eximus snow globe, tons of heavies with ground slam, stack their globes, and then mix them with extra eximus (plus Sapping Ospreys and Bursa in Corpus missions). They are actually op that way. There's almost no way to counter them when they do this.

Rapid fire? Shame, they have a snow globe inside and you burn through your ammo. Melee? Suicide cause of god knows how many knockdown spams and AoE attacks are in there (don't forget the Sapping Ospreys too). Sniping? Nullifier bubbles negate high damage weapons for unknown reasons. Powers? Disabled. Coordinated attacks? You don't have that much time to plan for those at late game since you're dead if you take off your concentration for a bit.

Let's say that does happen, and let's assume they all show up at once so there was never a chance to take them out before this whole situation happens.

Why should you be able to always win?  Why should a player be able to overcome anything after biting off more than they can chew?  If the enemies pile up that much firepower, why shouldn't they win?

[Brizmuth]

1 minute ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Let's say that does happen, and let's assume they all show up at once so there was never a chance to take them out before this whole situation happens.

Why should you be able to always win?  Why should a player be able to overcome anything after biting off more than they can chew?  If the enemies pile up that much firepower, why shouldn't they win?

I'm Pro nulifier and I'm with you when you on laughing at the situation but why should the player always win? The player shouldn't always win but the game should never throw a situation at the player where there's a possibility they can't win. No one wants to play a game they can't win, one that sets them up to fail, so I can see understand his frustration. However if a player dived into a higher level area than they can handle in a game with an RPG based system then that's the players fault 110%.

[Jangkrik]

1 hour ago, Brizmuth said:

Jesus man, you just fit all the poor enemies in the map in that Nulifier's globe. They must be so cramped in there.

Seriously, that situation is overexagerated. The most obnoxious enemies in the game dont just suddenly spawn in a nulifiers bubble like they're out to ruin the game for you and the situation your presented has such a rare chance of happening naturally outside of eximus stronghold missions.

When you bring a semi auto weapon with you, you need to bring a full-auto to pop nullifies if you know you're going to face Nulifiers. Or if you know your'e going to face Nullifier's don't bring snipers. Its like knowing what you're up against so you can bring the proper elemental mods. Come prepared and Nulifiers wont be such a problem for you.

That's not exaggerated. I often found them like that when doing high level missions (like T4D) and sorties (I wouldn't hate Nullifiers if I rarely find those). I do agree that they're perfect in low to mid level missions, but they need a tweak to make them more friendly to high level missions (like allowing slower weapons to deal with them effectively).

As for the weapon selections, look at Hek's nullifier drones at LoR, they don't force you do bring snipers (even though it's reccomended to bring one) because automatic weapons are also useful to deal with them. What's the reason behind the damage capping of Nullifier bubbles? Why should I be forced to use automatic weapons just to deal with Nullifiers? This isn't like having to bring magnetic weapons to Corpus missions because most of the weapons are still functioning optimally if you mod them using magnetic damage (even something like Stug).

Let's see the differences:

Grineer - bring anything with you as long as can dish out enough damage.

Infested - bring anything with you as long as you can deal enough damage and not get overwhelmed easily. Automatic weapons are good to wipe out crowds but you don't have to bring them.

Corpus - you're forced to bring at least one full auto weapon just to deal with the Nullifiers.

I think the best fix would be removing the damage cap for their bubbles so that non automatic weapons will also be viable against them.

TL;DR: Nullifiers should be beatable with any weapon you bring, not beatable using automatic weapons and hard to beat using semi auto weapons. I hope that semi auto weapon effectiveness against Nullifier bubbles are buffed. 

25 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Let's say that does happen, and let's assume they all show up at once so there was never a chance to take them out before this whole situation happens.

Why should you be able to always win?  Why should a player be able to overcome anything after biting off more than they can chew?  If the enemies pile up that much firepower, why shouldn't they win?

Why should there be something that can't be countered by almost anything in the game? Why shouldn't the players win? I agree that they should be hard to deal since you meet them at higher leveled missions, but why should they guarantee that you lose to them?

19 minutes ago, Brizmuth said:

I'm Pro nulifier and I'm with you when you on laughing at the situation but why should the player always win? The player shouldn't always win but the game should never throw a situation at the player where there's a possibility they can't win. No one wants to play a game they can't win, one that sets them up to fail, so I can see understand his frustration. However if a player dived into a higher level area than they can handle in a game with an RPG based system then that's the players fault 110%.

Agree. They should be hard to deal with, not almost impossible to deal with since you face them in high level missions.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Jangkrik

[Brizmuth]

7 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

That's not exaggerated. I often found them like that when doing high level missions (like T4D) and sorties (I wouldn't hate Nullifiers if I rarely find those). I do agree that they're perfect in low to mid level missions, but they need a tweak to make them end game/high level friendly.

Look at Hek's nullifier drones at LoR, they don't force you do bring snipers (even though it's reccomended to bring one) because automatic weapons are also useful to deal with them. What's the reason behind the damage capping of Nullifier bubbles? Why should I be forced to use automatic weapons just to deal with Nullifiers? This isn't like having to bring magnetic weapons to Corpus missions because most of the weapons are still functioning optimally if you mod them using magnetic damage (even something like Stug).

Let's see the differences:

Grineer - bring anything with you as long as can dish out enough damage.

Infested - bring anything with you as long as you can deal enough damage and not get overwhelmed easily. Automatic weapons are good to wipe out crowds but you don't have to bring them.

Corpus - you're forced to bring at least one full auto weapon just to deal with the Nullifiers.

I think the best fix would be removing the damage cap for their bubbles so that non automatic weapons will also be viable against them.

TL;DR: Nullifiers should be beatable with any weapon you bring, not beatable using automatic weapons and hard to beat using semi auto weapons. I hope that semi auto weapon effectiveness against Nullifier bubbles are buffed.

How many black kavats have crossed your path, man? What you described sounded like all the worst enemies that have spawned were camping in the Nullifiers bubble like they were out to get you. It would take a ton of enemies to already be spawned in the map just to get a saturation of those specific enemies in that spot. The chances of that happening outside of an eximus stronghold mission is crazy. It doesn't increase with higher level missions, the enemy spawn rate of each type is the same, I believe, they're all just higher level. I think the only difference is in fissures.

You can't just bring anything you want in all mission types. You wouldn't bring a a pure semi automatic load-out (explosives excluded) to a defensive mission, you'd get overwhelmed. Infested have their own form of agent gameplay element in the form of energy leeches. If you're playing infinite game modes you have to take them into consideration when selecting your warframe, you cant bring anything too ability reliant (except trinity.) While its not weapons, its still something you have to consider when selecting your loadout. Honestly whenever I see Grineer sorties I just think how easy a run its going to be. I don't know if they're suppose to be so "vanilla" but they are the first enemies introduced in the game and the only enemies beginner players fight for a while. I guess they have flame throwers and mini guns? I don't know the Grineer are really boring and I wish DE would spice them up. You got me there, bring anything you want to fight them as long as its not semi-autos to a defense mission. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Brizmuth said:

You can't just bring anything you want in all mission types. You wouldn't bring a a pure semi automatic load-out (explosives excluded) to a defensive mission, you'd get overwhelmed. 

Bows.

[Loswaith]

The recent update on nulifiers actually made many of the previous complaints justified (and I used to be a stout defender of them), DE had them right the first time.  While the only real issue was their over frequent spawn rate.

Due to the change, no damage from outside the bubble actually will hurt the Nulifier inside it regardless of the bubbles actual size (you either have to be 100% inside or the bubble disabled, removing many good tactics to defeat them).  Even if you have a 1 meter radius nulifier bubble and a 5 meter explosion, the nulifier takes no damage, or a long reach melee weapon slices right through the nulifier, it gets with no damage, despite the weapon cleaning clipping through them.  Along with that the nulifier bubble has actually been increased in size by about 2-3 meters.

 

[Jaysus41]

Nullifers aren't challenging, that's not the argument with them, and if anyone thinks they're challenging in the least bit, even in late game, they have Much more to learn and Much more skill to gain.

Yea, you read that right. I'm telling the people who think nullifiers are a "good challenge" to "git gud."

Usually when I run into a nullifier I take 2 seconds. 1 second to decide if the buffs I currently have on are worth saving (usually not), 0.5 to kill it (add a second if I decide my buffs are worth it), and another 0.5 to give it a single humiliating teabag, even in the middle of a firefight, because they deserve no less. Even if I get downed in the bubble I can kill it and everything inside it with my sidearm.

HAHA! By downing me you've allowed me to take my most powerful form! Only TIME can kill me now!

The problem is that they're very badly designed and anti-fun. I don't quiver in fear or get excited for an epic confrontation when they approach, I just roll my eyes, slide in, plant a bullet in their skull,  and check the first box on the corpus genocide checklist.

•     Kill nullifier(s) - Check
•     Kill everything else and have FUN while doing it - In Progress...

Combas, Scrambus and Isolator Bursas are infinitely superior power nullifiers, and that leaves me wondering why the knee-jerk "solution" to Viver is still here. All they do is temporarily turn this game into a 2nd rate 3rd person shooter, and if that's what you desire, the steam early access page is --> that way. I'm sure they can accommodate you.

Power nullification shouldn't be a "ho-hum, business as usual" occurrence, it should be an "Oh s***!" moment, something you don't see in corpus missions every..... single..... time..... A Corpus mission to me right now is bring something tanky with a good gun and CoD-slog my way through, or Loki-rush it and avoid everything altogether.. Kinda boring compared to the fun and freedom I could be having in the Grineer and Infested missions.

[Railgun_Alter]

3 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

a long reach melee weapon slices right through the nulifier, it gets with no damage, despite the weapon cleaning clipping through them

I can agree with this.

At the very least, Heavy Weapons (which are ALL pretty darn big/long) should not be affected by the Nullifier's bubble

[Brizmuth]

6 minutes ago, Madho said:

Bows.

I don't think a bow could carry you in the high level missions. Even with a Dread and Fanged Fusillade in a sortie you're only two hitting enemies unless you're getting headshots. You don't have the fire rate to justify a bow. Its the same reason why the Hek > Tigris.

[Railgun_Alter]

3 minutes ago, Jaysus41 said:

-snip-

This guy gets it right.

 

Nullifiers should be put in the same level (?) as Bursas in terms of challenge and spawn rate (as in, appearing only under certain conditions):


I 1000% agree in Nullies being a tedious obstacle rather than a challenge. Haven't yet found a reason to be as cautious/afraid of them as I am when Mama Lotus tells me Bursas are coming

[Brizmuth]

4 minutes ago, Jaysus41 said:

Combas, Scrambus and Isolator Bursas are infinitely superior power nullifiers, and that leaves me wondering why the knee-jerk "solution" to Viver is still here. All they do is temporarily turn this game into a 2nd rate 3rd person shooter, and if that's what you desire, the steam early access page is --> that way. I'm sure they can accommodate you.

I don't think the bursa is the bad if you bring CC which just lets you run around it. What you dont see is anyone complain abou juggernauts but all these people have problems with Nulifiers. The juggernaut is just a waiting game. You just run around until it shows its belly or spam attacks until you tickle it till it dies. That is, if you CHOOSE to fight him at all. You can just skip fighting the juggernaut all together. I think it would be much more engaging if you could trigger the belly flip.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 minute ago, Brizmuth said:

I don't think the bursa is the bad if you bring CC which just lets you run around it. What you dont see is anyone complain abou juggernauts but all these people have problems with Nulifiers. The juggernaut is just a waiting game. You just run around until it shows its belly or spam attacks until you tickle it till it dies. That is, if you CHOOSE to fight him at all. You can just skip fighting the juggernaut all together. I think it would be much more engaging if you could trigger the belly flip.

Juggernauts are super easy tho, just bring a high damaging weapon and boom, its dead

.

[LuckyCharm]

Was doing a sortie the other day, I swear... nullifiers were from the ranks of Hydra. Cut off one head and two more will take its place. Not to mention they were being covered in shield ospreys dropping shield bombs so melee was a deathtrap. 

But really, the issue I have has never been the unit itself, it's been my playstyle vs the unit. I detest using high fire rate guns and the semi-autos that are my favorites don't actually kill one nullifier before I need to reload, which causes the nullifier to regen part of its accursed shield. I mean its easy to kill them if I was to say.. use my twin grakatas, but i rather adore my lex and want to bring that. The issue then comes to using a clip and a half to kill one unit, out of the hoarde that you need to fight. It dramatically slows down my gameplay rather than run and gun style like I usually do I have to stop, and kill a stupid shield while taking fire from whatever the thing is guarding

 

[Brizmuth]

Just now, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

Juggernauts are super easy tho, just bring a high damaging weapon and boom, its dead

.

Are we thinking of the same enemy? At high levels( ~50) I find trying to kill them head on to be quite time consuming. What weapons do you recommend?

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Brizmuth said:

Even with a Dread and Fanged Fusillade in a sortie you're only two hitting enemies unless you're getting headshots.

I assume everyone here knows how to aim. Even if I'm not scoring headshots I still kill enemies more efficiently with enough ammo economy. Also innate punchthrough.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

19 minutes ago, Brizmuth said:

Are we thinking of the same enemy? At high levels( ~50) I find trying to kill them head on to be quite time consuming. What weapons do you recommend?

Tonkor, soma p, and even the quanta, but here's a little secret to kill a juggernaut super fast, fatal ash.

 

Edited July 30, 2016 by (XB1)CFE Angry
Im a fatal ash main so juggernauts at any level are basically chargers for me.